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  #26    
Old July 14th, 2013, 05:10 PM
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I'd say I'm disappointed in the outcome, but I was disappointed when I first heard of this shooting.

Situations like this could be avoided much more frequently if we didn't have so many guns.

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  #27    
Old July 14th, 2013, 06:18 PM
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No, the proper solution is to have more guns. If Trayvon Martin had a gun, he could've protected himself from getting shot by Zimmerman.

Oh wait black kid shooting a gun...
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  #28    
Old July 14th, 2013, 07:03 PM
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Look, can we ease off the gas on the gun debate here, please? The gun itself is not morally wrong; irresponsible vigilantism is.
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Last edited by CarcharOdin; July 14th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
  #29    
Old July 14th, 2013, 07:48 PM
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Apparently you all were lost on my sarcasm so I'm just going to make my point again.

Nobody here knows exactly what happened. Only two people do, and one of them is dead.

And secondly, there is without a doubt many people being murdered like that around the country, right this second.

But why does it have to be where two races are involved that it's big? This shows the huge amount of discrimination that still goes on in our country. We ignore the many black people in the 'hood that get shot every day and have things done to them in clear view of witnesses, sometimes whole neighborhoods of them, yet a suburban black kid gets shot with no direct witnesses and we all go crazy.

Don't we have to respect everyone the same?

Isn't that equality?

If so, why don't we treat every shooting in urban areas the same?

What happened to the 27 people that were shot in Chicago over the July 4th weekend?

What happened to the thousands of victims this year?

Why don't we give their families any comfort like we did with Newtown?

I'll tell you why - it's because Newtown incident was full of the "majority".

Like it or not, you have to admit - we try to help the "richer" ethnicity, race, or religion.

Believe it or not, everyone is racist.

And believe me, I'm not disrespecting anyone.

But it's true, and it's something all of you will have to face one day.

So delete this if you want, but my point is clear - if we have to respect this, we have to respect all of them.
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  #30    
Old July 14th, 2013, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarcharOdin View Post
Look, can we ease off the gas on the gun debate here, please? The gun itself is not morally wrong; irresponsible vigilantism is.
I'm just expressing sarcasm. Oh and how race would've played a role if the situation was reversed. A healthy dose of cynicism and thought experimenting =)
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  #31    
Old July 14th, 2013, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I'm just expressing sarcasm. Oh and how race would've played a role if the situation was reversed. A healthy dose of cynicism and thought experimenting =)
On the mention of thought experimenting

What if there was really a case of self-defense here?

What if he was being assaulted by Trayvon?

You know, you weren't there, you didn't meticulously go through each of the witness statements…

how would you know?

I say, express sorrow for the people dead and leave it at that. Revenge is never a solution, and even if it was, it wouldn't make sense to do it to something that likely didn't happen the way you thought it did.
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  #32    
Old July 14th, 2013, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Apparently you all were lost on my sarcasm so I'm just going to make my point again.

Nobody here knows exactly what happened. Only two people do, and one of them is dead.

And secondly, there is without a doubt many people being murdered like that around the country, right this second.

But why does it have to be where two races are involved that it's big? This shows the huge amount of discrimination that still goes on in our country. We ignore the many black people in the 'hood that get shot every day and have things done to them in clear view of witnesses, sometimes whole neighborhoods of them, yet a suburban black kid gets shot with no direct witnesses and we all go crazy.

Don't we have to respect everyone the same?

Isn't that equality?

If so, why don't we treat every shooting in urban areas the same?

What happened to the 27 people that were shot in Chicago over the July 4th weekend?

What happened to the thousands of victims this year?

Why don't we give their families any comfort like we did with Newtown?

I'll tell you why - it's because Newtown incident was full of the "majority".

Like it or not, you have to admit - we try to help the "richer" ethnicity, race, or religion.

Believe it or not, everyone is racist.

And believe me, I'm not disrespecting anyone.

But it's true, and it's something all of you will have to face one day.

So delete this if you want, but my point is clear - if we have to respect this, we have to respect all of them.

I'll tell you why Newtown was diffrient - Because it was a case where 20 children were murdered in a single event.

All murders are saddening, but most are overlooked. It's only when a extremely heinous case happens, such as the murder of 20 school children, that causes a mass outpouring of support.

It wasn't because most of the students were white, it wasn't because of how much money their parents made, it was because so many were killed that day.

Most cases don't reach the news - Tragic deaths, yes, but to compare a case where one person dies to a case where 28 people died, 20 of them schoolchildren? Making a point or not, to say that the outpouring of support for Newtown was based on race or economic background displays a very vile kind of heartlessness.
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Last edited by Mr. X; July 14th, 2013 at 08:43 PM.
  #33    
Old July 14th, 2013, 08:42 PM
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yes, but you have to imagine. What if they were in an urban neighborhood?

They probably would have just gone "well, that's black people for ya" and forgot about it.

There's a difference. 20 white children getting shot? Heinous.

20 black children getting shot? Sad.

I don't think that's fair.

And believe me, that's what I see of the whole gaggle of murders on the news happening lately. When has a mass murder spree on the news happened in a black or urban neighborhood? They're all white. You can't deny that - either something is really wrong with white people, or we're overlooking something about the black population. And as I believe that all races are equal in crazy people, it's the second.
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  #34    
Old July 14th, 2013, 08:54 PM
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The support for Newtown wasn't because twenty white children were shot. It was because twenty children were shot.

If twenty children are shot and killed in a single crime, then there will be a outpouring of support for the community, no matter the race, religion, or economic background.

While some cases are overlooked, when it comes to cases this heinous then there will be a outpouring of support.
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  #35    
Old July 14th, 2013, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. X View Post
The support for Newtown wasn't because twenty white children were shot. It was because twenty children were shot.

If twenty children are shot and killed in a single crime, then there will be a outpouring of support for the community, no matter the race, religion, or economic background.

While some cases are overlooked, when it comes to cases this heinous then there will be a outpouring of support.
But has there?

Simply - no. There may have been black people in these incidents, but I've never seen a widely-covered news story about a shooting in a black neighborhood.

Show me some, please. I really do want to know where this "evidence" of "outpouring of support regardless of race" is. Any claims without support is invalid, and my support is that I've never seen a story like this that happened in a black neighborhood covered so widely as those two or three incidents.
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  #36    
Old July 14th, 2013, 09:03 PM
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I don't know why that is...

Wait...

Could it be because nothing like this has... you know... never ****ing happened?

The number of mass shootings, mass school shootings, is rather low. And even then not a whole lot of them result in this sheer number of deaths, nor have a whole lot of them targeted children this young.

So I can't find you the proof you desire. And I'm damn glad I can't.

That said, you want to read about schoolchildren being murdered. Get some ****ing psychological help - You have issues.
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  #37    
Old July 14th, 2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. X View Post
I don't know why that is...

Wait...

Could it be because nothing like this has... you know... never ****ing happened?

The number of mass shootings, mass school shootings, is rather low. And even then not a whole lot of them result in this sheer number of deaths, nor have a whole lot of them targeted children this young.

So I can't find you the proof you desire. And I'm damn glad I can't.

That said, you want to read about schoolchildren being murdered. Get some ****ing psychological help - You have issues.
Who said I wanted to?

I said I merely wanted proof that what you're saying is true.

Is that too much?

I feel like nobody understands me, and that's fine.

If it's going to be this way, it'll be this way. Live in your misconceptions and never venture out to see what else may be the truth.

I'm…going to sleep. I can't handle all this crap.

What I'm saying is, people of all races gets killed. It's a fact of life, and it's wrong. But why is it that only certain people get media exposure?

Aren't the 90 lives of the Chicagoans that were killed this year just as sad? Don't they deserve the same respect and condolences that these people get?

All I'm saying is - like it or not, we are all racist.

We can't change that.

But realizing that is one step towards a better, non-racist society.
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  #38    
Old July 14th, 2013, 09:16 PM
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There was a mass shooting in Chicago that killed 90 people? I never heard of this happening.

Oh, wait... Your talking about 90 separate killings? Yeah, this makes more sense.

As I've said, these deaths are tragic and don't get exposure. But to say that a event that results in the death of one person is just a tragic as a event that results in the death of 20 children, and then go to say that the only reason reason it made news was because of the race of the children?
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Last edited by Mr. X; July 15th, 2013 at 08:05 PM.
  #39    
Old July 14th, 2013, 09:56 PM
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Both of you should can it and get back to discussing the merits of the case. Please.
  #40    
Old July 14th, 2013, 10:14 PM
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Ignoring the fact that Zimmerman ignored orders to cease pursing Martin.. The main problem I have is this:

Quote:
When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight mother****er!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.
This is from Zimmerman's account, so we can assume it being partially skewed in his favor. But we can clearly take one thing from it - the gun was the problem. We can infer that Martin came to the conclusion that his life was on the line after noticing the weapon. One of them was going to die, and each need to "defend" themselves by taking the others life. If there's no gun, then no life is lost.
  #41    
Old July 14th, 2013, 11:13 PM
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The issue with following orders is that a dispatcher lacks the ability to give legally binding orders - They can't order anything, just suggest. Should these be followed? Yeah. Do they have to be? No.

That said, we don't know if it was the weapon that caused Trayvon to say that he would kill Zimmerman. Odd's are that it played some part, but if you fear for your life then I'm pretty sure "Your going to die tonight" isn't something you would say.
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  #42    
Old July 14th, 2013, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. X View Post
The issue with following orders is that a dispatcher lacks the ability to give legally binding orders - They can't order anything, just suggest. Should these be followed? Yeah. Do they have to be? No.

That said, we don't know if it was the weapon that caused Trayvon to say that he would kill Zimmerman. Odd's are that it played some part, but if you fear for your life then I'm pretty sure "Your going to die tonight" isn't something you would say.
You have to take that with a grain of salt. It's possibly being embellished. Remember that's Zimmerman's take on events. The gist of what he said is likely true, but details like that likely aren't true. Unless an event like that is recorded you can't know what was said, or how it was said.
  #43    
Old July 15th, 2013, 03:01 PM
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Doubtless it's a great tragedy, and the gun exacerbated the situation immensely, no matter whether Zimmerman's account was right or not. However, I think if there had been a guilty verdict it would've been wrong too - as far as I can tell there's insufficient evidence either way, not helped by half the people who know what happened being dead, so there would've been outrage either way.


Also, I was in the U.S. during the latter stages of the trial (they were just discrediting witnesses over and over as far as I could tell when I looked up from my food), and I'm curious - why do you guys have televised trials? Over here in Britain you're not allowed to even take photos inside the courts - you get artists' paintings of the defendant etc. but nothing else. Doubtless Zimmerman would still be fearing for his safety (As he apparently does) even under the British system, but I can't help thinking that his being on national television for over two weeks constantly can't have helped.
  #44    
Old July 15th, 2013, 03:22 PM
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It's apparently for getting the public "informed", but all it does is make it into a reality show and not real or serious to anyone watching.

This is partly why this is such a big deal - the Casey Anthony case, all the other ones too - they're no different from other really horrible cases that get skipped over (such as the one where the mother microwaved her baby - just as gruesome if not more, but hardly made a blip in the public conscience), but with the difference that they're making millions off of the publicity of these cases.

I'm not saying that publicity is a bad thing - they're giving more exposure to these crimes (as they very well should), but at the same time trivializing murder and child abuse or whatnot to something like a season of Survivors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
Both of you should can it and get back to discussing the merits of the case. Please.
Am I doing this right

---

Though honestly, I would like to see ALL of these cases so widely known. There already goes something like a thousand heinous crimes committed a year, so it's a matter of showing the victims the same respect.
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Last edited by droomph; July 15th, 2013 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
  #45    
Old July 15th, 2013, 03:33 PM
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This case got a lot of attention initially because Zimmerman wasn't even being arrested. It just happened to then champion a call for change since this case is a great example of our corrupted legal system. The circumstances of this case just happened to highlight every thing that is wrong with our society, and the deaths of completely innocent young people is especially saddening for the communities involved.

Tragedy isn't a contest, anyway.
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  #46    
Old July 15th, 2013, 04:24 PM
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the zimmerman apologists in this thread are absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourselves

and just for the record, even if he is 'innocent' or 'not guilty', the fact of the matter is that zimmerman IGNORED the requests of the police to stay in the car and to not pursue trayvon, and he SHOULD NOT have had a gun on him in the first place. if his racist ass listened to the police and did what he was told, this may have never happened in the first place.

Last edited by Mariah Carey; July 15th, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
  #47    
Old July 15th, 2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
the zimmerman apologists in this thread are absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourselves

and just for the record, even if he is 'innocent' or 'not guilty', the fact of the matter is that zimmerman IGNORED the requests of the police to stay in the car and to not pursue trayvon, and he SHOULD NOT have had a gun on him in the first place. if his racist ass listened to the police and did what he was told, this may have never happened in the first place.
Why are you bringing race into this? What evidence do you have to show that Zimmerman was a racist?

Also, one might say if Trayvon wasn't involved in suspicious behavior he may not have aggressed at Zimmerman. Sure, Zimmerman should not have checked-up on Trayvon as a personal duty, however, he should have been able to do so without being assaulted, and thus requiring using lethal force in order to defend himself. He did understand the risk of confronting Trayvon, but no law exists in Florida that prohibits someone from confronting a person engaged in suspicious or illegal activity such as trespassing. Of which, I don't care what your skin color is, I don't want anyone being allowed to trespass in my neighborhood, as I think you wouldn't either.

To say people on this thread are disgusting because they are acknowledging facts of the case such as documented suspicious and illegal behavior of Trayvon, and physical evidence that supports Zimmerman's testimony, it is undermining what our justice system is about. We must act in accordance with the law and only factual evidence may be used to demonstrate violations.

It appears from the inflammatory language that your opinion is based on personal sentiment and you have unfairly judged the situation by the merits of factual evidence, and instead supplemented it with sensationalist sentiments proscribed by the newsmedia, not the courtroom testimonies and objective analysis of the law.

Last edited by The Dark Avenger; July 15th, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
  #48    
Old July 15th, 2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
the zimmerman apologists in this thread are absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourselves

and just for the record, even if he is 'innocent' or 'not guilty', the fact of the matter is that zimmerman IGNORED the requests of the police to stay in the car and to not pursue trayvon, and he SHOULD NOT have had a gun on him in the first place. if his racist ass listened to the police and did what he was told, this may have never happened in the first place.
Get your facts straight - He was never ordered by a cop to remain in his vehicle. A police dispatcher suggested that he did, but a dispatcher isn't a cop nor are his suggestions legally binding.

Continue on your rant of righteous anger if you wish - Just be sure that you have your information correct before you start going on a hate filled tirade against a person you never have and most likely never will know.
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  #49    
Old July 15th, 2013, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Why are you bringing race into this? What evidence do you have to show that Zimmerman was a racist?

Also, one might say if Trayvon wasn't involved in suspicious behavior he may not have aggressed at Zimmerman. Sure, Zimmerman should not have checked-up on Trayvon as a personal duty, however, he should have been able to do so without being assaulted, and thus requiring using lethal force in order to defend himself. He did understand the risk of confronting Trayvon, but no law exists in Florida that prohibits someone from confronting a person engaged in suspicious or illegal activity such as trespassing. Of which, I don't care what your skin color is, I don't want anyone being allowed to trespass in my neighborhood, as I think you wouldn't either.

To say people on this thread are disgusting because they are acknowledging facts of the case such as documented suspicious and illegal behavior of Trayvon, and physical evidence that supports Zimmerman's testimony, it is undermining what our justice system is about. We must act in accordance with the law and only factual evidence may be used to demonstrate violations.

It appears from the inflammatory language that your opinion is based on personal sentiment and you have unfairly judged the situation by the merits of factual evidence, and instead supplemented it with sensationalist sentiments proscribed by the newsmedia, not the courtroom testimonies and objective analysis of the law.
"Also, one might say if Trayvon wasn't involved in suspicious behavior he may not have aggressed at Zimmerman." just exactly what are you trying to mean with this phrase? If he wasn't a thug than maybe he could've avoided getting a cap blown up his ass? What, was he asking for it?

I don't know why you have to bring up his history as if it makes a difference here. When a creepy man is behind you and following you around, I don't think your response is "oh this muthaf must die". Maybe Trayvon is a thug, and maybe he wanted to beat Zimmerman's head in, but I doubt that there would be any intent to kill. At the end of the day neither of them wanted to kill, but if one of them is equipped with a firearm and the other is equipped with his fists, I think it's quite obvious which one is going to die >>

All this case was trying was whether or not Zimmerman can justify shooting his gun as self-defense. Which means all the defense has to do is make it look like Zimmerman's life was in immediate danger of ending. Perhaps there was reasonable doubt. Doesn't stop him from being an ******* though, and one's record of *******ry doesn't really count in this world. Common sense dictates that you don't approach someone the way Zimmerman did. You can be a total idiot, and get yourself into a position in which you "have" to shoot someone, but you're still a total idiot. Maybe the vice in what Zimmerman did cannot be judged by law, but it was still viceful. Zimmerman did something wrong, only that it doesn't count for anything.

I don't even want to talk about your last paragraph. If that isn't troll material, I don't know what is. You don't have to come across as having attitude.
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  #50    
Old July 15th, 2013, 07:18 PM
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The dispatcher probably said that because you're kinda sorta supposed to wait because, you know, you're not a cop if you're the one calling 911. You are not to take the law into your own hands. Which is what Zimmerman did.

Also, I am so goddamn sick of the reports coming out of his thread. I will lock and delete this, and start handing out infractions. Try me.

Last edited by Livewire; July 15th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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