The PokéCommunity Forums  

Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates
Sign Up Rules/FAQ Live Battle Blogs Mark Forums Read

Notices

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more in-depth topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.


Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old July 20th, 2013, 09:31 AM
Lance
Master of Dragons
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Blackthorn City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Lance
Quote:
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- A Norwegian woman sentenced to 16 months in jail in Dubai for having sex outside marriage after she reported an alleged rape said Friday she decided to speak out in hopes of drawing attention to the risks of outsiders misunderstanding the Islamic-influenced legal codes in this cosmopolitan city.

The case has drawn outrage from rights groups and others in the West since the 24-year-old interior designer was sentenced Wednesday. It also highlights the increasingly frequent tensions between the United Arab Emirates' international atmosphere and its legal system, which is strongly influenced by Islamic traditions in a nation where foreign workers and visitors greatly outnumber locals.

"I have to spread the word. ... After my sentence we thought, `How can it get worse?'" Marte Deborah Dalelv told The Associated Press in an interview at a Norwegian aid compound in Dubai where she is preparing her appeal scheduled for early September.

Dalelv, who worked for an interior design firm in Qatar since 2011, claims she was sexually assaulted by a co-worker in March while she was attending a business meeting in Dubai.

She said she fled to the hotel lobby and asked for the police to be called. The hotel staff asked if she was sure she wanted to involve the police, Dalelv said.

"Of course I want to call the police," she said. "That is the natural reaction where I am from."

Dalelv said she was given a medical examination seeking evidence of the alleged rape and underwent a blood test for alcohol. Such tests are commonly given in the UAE for alleged assaults and in other cases. Alcohol is sold widely across Dubai, but public intoxication can bring charges.

The AP does not identity the names of alleged sexual assault victims, but Dalelv went public voluntarily to talk to media.

Dalelv was detained for four days after being accused of having sex outside marriage, which is outlawed in the UAE although the law is not actively enforced for tourists as well as hundreds of thousands of Westerners and others on resident visas.

She managed to reach her stepfather in Norway after being loaned a phone card by another woman in custody.

"My stepdad, he answered the phone, so I said, that I had been raped, I am in prison ... please call the embassy," she recounted.

"And then I went back and I ... just had a breakdown," she continued. "It was very emotional, to call my dad and tell him what happened."

Norwegian diplomats later secured her release and she has been allowed to remain at the Norwegian Seamen's Center in central Dubai. She said her alleged attacker received a 13-month sentence for out-of-wedlock sex and alcohol consumption.

Dubai authorities did not respond to calls for comment, but the case has brought strong criticism from Norwegian officials and activists.

"This verdict flies in the face of our notion of justice," Norway's foreign minister, Espen Barth Eide, told the NTB news agency, calling it "highly problematic from a human rights perspective."

Previous cases in the UAE have raised similar questions, with alleged sexual assault victims facing charges for sex-related offenses. Other legal codes also have been criticized for being at odds with the Western-style openness promoted by Dubai.

On Thursday, Dubai police said they arrested a man who posted an Internet video of an Emirati beating a South Asian van driver after an apparent traffic altercation. Police said they took the action because images of a potential crime were "shared."

In London, a spokesman for the Emirates Center for Human Rights, a group monitoring UAE affairs, said the Dalelv case points out the need for the UAE to expand its legal protections for alleged rape victims.

"We urge authorities to reform the laws governing incidents of rape in the country," said Rori Donaghy, "to ensure women are protected against sexual violence and do not become the targets of prosecution when reporting crimes."
Reported a rape by a coworker in a business trip to Dubai, then was thrown in jail for 16 months for having sex outside of marriage. Ridiculous.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2    
Old July 20th, 2013, 11:54 AM
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger
Eye-Catching
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US of Eh
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Yike, this will look bad for all of the coastal states that have a high rule of law index in relation to other middle eastern nations. These more capitalistic societies are more progressive in order to garner consumers external of their nations. That is one reason why the rule of law is so important for these nation's wealth and protecting their foriegn investments. With this, maybe the world has a slightly warped perception of the rule of law in EAU and perhaps other wealthy coastal states like Kuwait, Qatar, and Oman. These states are more authoritarian than one might think, they do have monarchs, usually they tend to not apply many of their social/domestic statutes on outsiders in the metropolitan areas since they will begin to lose business. With more stories like these, they very well are running the risk of losing foreign investments and consumer confidence.
__________________

Retrodex Sprites
|D&D Forum|??? (coming soon)
Reply With Quote
  #3    
Old July 20th, 2013, 01:11 PM
Belldandy's Avatar
Belldandy
ღ Cammybear ღ
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Age: 21
Gender: Female
Nature: Timid
And the guy only got thirteen months... Not even for the assault, but for having "out-of-wedlock sex" AND being intoxicated. For all we know, the sex portion - which is a wrong sentence, IMO. It wasn't sex; it was an assault - only constitutes four months of that sentence.

Jeez Louise.
__________________
FC: 4699-7283-5972; IGN: Irène, Belldandy
My Bloggy
My Trade Reviews
My Trade Thread
Breedject Sign-Up Thread
Friend Safari: Munna, Gothorita, Espurr
Native Scatterbugs: Polar, Ocean, Sun
Reply With Quote
  #4    
Old July 20th, 2013, 04:37 PM
Blade_of_darkness's Avatar
Blade_of_darkness
War Machine
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Gender: Male
Nature: Rash
Send a message via Skype™ to Blade_of_darkness
A rape victim, of all people, being sent to prison for having sex outside of marriage?! Christ, these people couldn't tell if she's a rape victim or not.

& I thought that the American Justice system was bad! Well, there's my unpleasant surprise for the day...
__________________

^ The last thing you see before you die ^
Reply With Quote
  #5    
Old July 20th, 2013, 04:54 PM
Zet's Avatar
Zet
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Jolly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_of_darkness View Post
A rape victim, of all people, being sent to prison for having sex outside of marriage?! Christ, these people couldn't tell if she's a rape victim or not.

& I thought that the American Justice system was bad! Well, there's my unpleasant surprise for the day...
They don't want to admit it's rape. They're too accustomed to their old ways to change.
Reply With Quote
  #6    
Old July 21st, 2013, 03:47 AM
derozio's Avatar
derozio
my ghost is whispering to me
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Akihabara
Age: 19
Gender: Female
Nature: Lonely
Yeah, what Zetty said. Those people have rules that differ quite a lot from stuff found in most countries, tbh.

I thought the judicial system and laws in India were screwed up. But this **** puts India's situation to shame.

Yeah, what Zetty said. Those people have rules that differ quite a lot from stuff found in most countries, tbh. I doubt I'd be able to live peacefully in a country like it.

I thought the judicial system and laws in India were screwed up. But this **** is even more ridiculous. .

Yeah, what Zetty said. Those people have rules that differ quite a lot from stuff found in most countries, tbh. I doubt I'd be able to live peacefully in a country like it.

I thought the judicial system and laws in India were screwed up. But this **** is even more ridiculous. .
__________________

Last edited by derozio; July 21st, 2013 at 03:50 AM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
Reply With Quote
  #7    
Old July 21st, 2013, 06:52 AM
Kura's Avatar
Kura
vimeo.com/67501143
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Horsham, UK (orig. Toronto, Canada)
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Nature: Serious
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Kura
Although very beautiful, it is reasons like this that I will never visit countries like this whose laws are based on religion and "tradition." Too dangerous and not worth it and I value my safety... I feel very sorry for everyone who lives there or everyone who has been a victim and I feel sorry for those having to be accustomed to laws like that to begin with. This report is ridiculous.
__________________
~Yuugiou Fan~
~Kamen Rider Fan~
♡(´・ω・`)LOVE! ☆
Reply With Quote
  #8    
Old July 21st, 2013, 10:37 AM
Kanzler
スペースディスコ ��82.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
I think it'll continue for a long while. They've got cash and lots of it, so there's no reason for their world to change. Even with Dubai's hypermodernism you could say, as long as their citizens are satisfied, even the most liberal and Western influences will not affect their values.

Spoiler:
Quote:
A young Norwegian woman has been sentenced to 16 months’ jail in Dubai after she reported being raped.

Marte Deborah Dalelv, 24, was convicted of having extramarital sex, making a false statement and illegal consumption of alcohol.

Dalelv was living in Qatar and working for interior design company Al Mana Interiors, which is owned by Qatari billionaire Wissam Al Mana, who secretly married singer Janet Jackson in 2012.

She was on a short business trip in Dubai in March when she claims she was raped by a colleague after asking him to escort her to her hotel room at the end of a work event where they had both been drinking alcohol.

He led her to the wrong room and pulled her in, she told CNN News. She then blacked out and woke up naked lying on her stomach and he was raping her.

She said it only ended when a member of the hotel staff knocked on the door for the colleague’s wake up call.

Dalelv said she immediately reported the incident to police. About a dozen male police officers arrived at the hotel and questioned both her and the rapist, a Sudanese man married with three children.

...

A company representative told CNN News both Dalelv and the rapist had been fired for "drinking alcohol at a staff conference that resulted in trouble with the police". The colleague was sentenced to 13 months for rape.

A statement from Al Mana Interiors spokesman Hani El Korek said the company was sympathetic to Dalelv "during this very difficult situation", that it had supported her during the initial investigation and had helped get her released from jail.

"Only when Ms. Dalelv declined to have positive and constructive discussions about her employment status, and ceased communication with her employer, was the company forced to end our relationship with her," the statement said.

From: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/raped...ai-510018.html

I'm not very good with "family" "conservative values" type things, but I'm inferring that they chose not to treat her case as rape because she was drunk and so she "asked for it" and "saw it coming". If only she didn't get drunk...
__________________
Cadance.
Reply With Quote
  #9    
Old July 21st, 2013, 11:57 AM
twocows's Avatar
twocows
Pretentious Intellectual Jerk
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Nature: Lax
Based on the story linked, it looked to me like they determined she was lying about it. Lying about rape is a very real problem that just serves to trivialize actual rape cases. If that was the case here, her punishment is just.
__________________
Doctors Without Borders: one of the few charity groups you can rely on to actually do real good in the world.

PM me if you have computer troubles. I work in IT for a living and can probably solve your problems. My rate is $expensive/hr, but I'm still cheaper than Creep Squad and, unlike them, will actually get the job done or let you know if I can't.

Quote:
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
- H. L. Mencken, unsourced

Quote:
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]

NEW 40K MMOFPS YESSSSS
Reply With Quote
  #10    
Old August 17th, 2013, 10:01 PM
Lance
Master of Dragons
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Blackthorn City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Lance
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocows View Post
Based on the story linked, it looked to me like they determined she was lying about it. Lying about rape is a very real problem that just serves to trivialize actual rape cases. If that was the case here, her punishment is just.
I highly doubt that, given where this took place and their horrible attitudes towards women. And even if she did lie, over a year in jail for that is a bit steep I think.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11    
Old August 18th, 2013, 09:04 AM
Esper's Avatar
Esper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
The authorities there have pardoned her, btw. And her attacker. How magnanimous of them.

Regarding the false reporting idea, false accusations of rape are very, very rare. They just get hyped to hell when they do occur. That hype, that perception held by lots of people that a large number of rape accusations are false, is one factor in why so many rapes aren't reported: Many victims feel that no one will believe them.

Considering where this happened, I would guess some of the local authorities may not even believe rape is a thing that happens.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #12    
Old August 20th, 2013, 09:16 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
There's a reason why we call the years when religion was a heavy legal weight , 'The Dark Ages'.

Quote:
On Thursday, Dubai police said they arrested a man who posted an Internet video of an Emirati beating a South Asian van driver after an apparent traffic altercation. Police said they took the action because images of a potential crime were "shared."
I see very little to connect this to the case this topic is based on. Aside from accentuating their deplorable state of government. Honestly though, every type of government has flaws, and people with dirty hands shouldn't point fingers.


Scarf, assuming that practically all reports of rape are true is the very attitude that leads to people reporting less then accurate ones; as people will always do something if they think they can get away with it.
Regardless, either arguement in such a situation is completely faulty. There is no way to gauge the number of false accusations. Unless, of course, you suppose to claim that one-hundred percent of them are exposed?


Personally, I think this is rather unsettling, but unfortunately not uncommon. The 'Legal' system in modern times is less concerned with justice and seeing the right thing done, and more so in upholding rules. And in such is it's folly, as rules can be changed; and men with deep pockets and heavy hands wouldn't have it any other way.
Retroversion in it's foulest.
Reply With Quote
  #13    
Old August 21st, 2013, 04:07 PM
Esper's Avatar
Esper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Scarf, assuming that practically all reports of rape are true is the very attitude that leads to people reporting less then accurate ones; as people will always do something if they think they can get away with it.
I disagree very strongly with what you're saying. Most rapes aren't reported because of fears that they won't be taken seriously. ("Oh, you were drinking at a party? Obviously it couldn't be rape." "Oh, you were wearing a short skirt? Obviously you were asking for it." and so on.) False accusations are outliers so I don't think you can really say that the attitudes of the population at large influence how many people engage in that practice or not. Regardless, even if someone is making a false accusation it is better to assume they aren't and go through the legal process because it is most likely that they aren't lying and it's better to have a few lies slip through that can be caught later than have rape victims being dismissed.

Alternately, I could say that not believing rape victims is the very attitude that emboldens rapists who'll think they can get away with what they do.

Anyway, it's not as if the assumption is all there is. It's just a starting point so that people will keep an open mind and not immediately dismiss a rape victim. If we accept that most of the time an accusation is made because someone really was raped then we're (hopefully) going to be much less likely to dismiss the accusation (with the "you-were-asking-for-it" and other excuses).

Of course I'm just talking about western countries. In places like the Middle East attitudes are obviously quite different.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #14    
Old August 21st, 2013, 06:19 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
Haste makes waste. In this case it shows through as disarray within your argument.
Please allow me to direct your attention to the part of my statement that you seem to have missed:

"Regardless, either argument in such a situation is completely faulty."

I was being dialectical.
Furthermore, it's illogical to say that making assumptions allows you to keep an open mind. To make an assumption is to form a theory before you learn the facts. When you have a theory before the facts, you'll bend them to fit what you assumed.

By the way. . .
You're saying that "Most rapes aren't reported because of fears that they won't be taken seriously." Now, If they aren't reported, then how can you say 'most rapes aren't reported'? In other words, how can you denote there to be a large number, if they aren't even mentioned by the victims?

It's quite apparent that you feel strongly about this, but when you let your sympathy influence your judgement, it leads to innocent people being prosecuted.

To further stess my standing, I do not, and wouldn't assume honesty, nor deceit with any such matter.
"As our case is new, we must think and act anew. "
Reply With Quote
  #15    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:52 AM
Psycho Yuffie's Avatar
Psycho Yuffie
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota, USA
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Nature: Quirky
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocows View Post
Based on the story linked, it looked to me like they determined she was lying about it. Lying about rape is a very real problem that just serves to trivialize actual rape cases. If that was the case here, her punishment is just.
Okay, she was blacked out when he started to rape her. You can't give consent if you're not conscious. It's also a common tactic to say that rape victims are only lying about it. Lying about rape is not a problem. People assuming that people lie about rape is a massive problem. Only 2% of rape reports are false.* That's why the majority of rapes go unreported.** Rape is the most common unreported crime in the world. It's also the case in the US. There are judges in the United States that have sent rape victims to prison and let the attacker go. Not to mention that whenever a rape case goes public, the perpetrators are also presented by the media as being victims who are losing their futures. Poor them. Meanwhile, the rape victim is harassed for being a monster and a **** in her everyday life because of it. Look at the post above for a case in point of this outrageous attitude.

* Source: http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts
** Source: http://www.rainn.org/get-information...eporting-rates

So, yeah, Paladin, we're not just making things up. We're not lying about it.

Last edited by Psycho Yuffie; August 22nd, 2013 at 06:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:45 PM
Kanzler
スペースディスコ ��82.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
It's funny how polarized the argument is, that even bringing up the possibility of false rape accusations is perceived as rubbing the wrong way and unacceptable. Objectively, these false accusations do occur, as we've seen in the statistics provided - even though they are a minority, and that to me gives them ground to be addressed. We don't know what went on, she could've been telling the truth, or maybe she didn't. To me, there is a lot of grey area and alcohol was involved, so who knows where their intentions and thought patterns were. Personally, I am of the idea that consent, like most other things in life, isn't black and white. Yes, I guess that's on the record and I'll never have a political career if this goes to light so shoot me. But as long as you can go from yes to kinda to maybe to sorta to no, well, that's to me how you oughta treat it - conclusion being that there's no one way you oughta treat it. I know that's not very politically acceptable, but it makes sense to me.

Just making a comment about the "glass walls" in this discussion.
__________________
Cadance.
Reply With Quote
  #17    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 12:17 AM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
@Psycho:
. . .
Okay, seriously, did you even read all of my post?

I'll try once more, in that case, to elaborate.

Regardless of figures, statistics, or estimations, every case is different. As such, each case should be approached with a fresh mind, and perspective. Just because Johnny raped Susie, doesn't mean that Tom definitely raped Ann.
I have not called you, nor Scarf, a lier. My point in asking what you were getting your assumptions from was not to infer as such, but rather that you would hopefully read what you link. Such numbers are merely estimations, which are unstable grounds to base a statement on.
The case of the matter is that both rape and false reports of it are real problems. Increasingly so if you add in the fact that lives are ruined at the mere mention of an accusation. This stigma effects both the accuser, and the defendant. Doubtlessly believing either one, whether it be the accuser or the defendant, will only end in making matters worse.

As there seems to be a disconnection somewhere between what I'm saying, or trying to, and what you're reading, or not, I will try to be more clear. I kindly ask that rather then meaning to cruxify my perspective as 'An Outrageous Attitude', you endeavor to be more civil in your disagreeing.


In this particular case, I have damned neither the alleged victim, nor the accused. All I said was that basing a legal system on religious beliefs is hogwash. I personally do not believe that I have enough facts to judge intelligently.


As a post note, I feel the need to clear up a possibly vague matter:
Have no doubt that if I were to encounter or find anybody being raped that I would not beat the **** out of the assailant. Despite my suspicion of any and everybody, I do indeed have morals.
However, as you most probably know, I have neglected the sympathetic, and protective urges that I initially felt, and opted for a colder veiw. I actually believe in 'Innocence until proven else', and as such I feel it my duty to consider all possibilities.
Reply With Quote
  #18    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:54 AM
Esper's Avatar
Esper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Paladin, we won't learn any facts unless we entertain the possibility that a woman who claims rape was actually raped. If you believe she's lying then you don't investigate, don't learn anything, and there is no justice.

We know of the levels of unreported rapes because of things like victimizations surveys which show that when someone doesn't report a rape to the police they may report it to a non-police person such a manager, teacher, family member, etc. or not at all. This is in the US anyway. We can infer it (not reporting) is worse in countries with weaker police forces and greater amounts of lawlessness.

Basically, what I am saying is that there is what is called a 'rape culture' which makes it harder to be believed when you tell someone you were raped and hard to get justice and because a lot of people, a lot of women in particular, know this is an unwritten rule, or because they internalize the culture themselves, don't report rapes because they think nothing will come of it, they'll be targeted for making an accusation (getting themselves put on trial in the court of public opinion), or because they don't realize what happened to them was rape and/or wasn't their fault.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #19    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 09:21 AM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
Eh, when I say that I consider all possibilities, that's one of them. . .
And even if I did believe that she was lying, I would still investigate. Under the possibility that she was lying, what would cause her to publicly say that she was raped, if such wasn't the case? What could make her willing to? Innocence in one regard doesn't mean innocence regardless.

Personally I take those with a grain of salt. I'm sure that they are mostly accurate, but under the possibility. . .

Yes, thank you! Intelligently written, and most agreeable.
The omnipresent psychological strain, and the shame that results from being raped is a prefectly valid point. From said stress, both emotional and mental, you can easily infer a large amount of unreported cases, albeit, not a percentage, but a large number, regardless. Much better standing for intelligent perception.
Reply With Quote
  #20    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 12:03 PM
Silais's Avatar
Silais
Princess of the Law
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Quiet
I still can't believe that people think that because some women lie about rape that every woman that says they were raped deserves extreme scrutiny and mistrust. Why are we putting pressure on the victims? Yes, some women say they were raped when they were not—so what? This is victim blaming at its finest. When we begin to mistrust those that bring crimes against humanity into the light, we begin to lose our humanity.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #21    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 01:05 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
Do not be mistaken, Silais. Being cautious and blaming the victim are two very different things.

People blame the victim because they can't understand the reason they were raped, they revoke the reason, or they are afraid. Rape is about domination, control, and to a point in some cases, bodily desires. The latter most being least common. The type of people who blame rape victims think that rape is all about sex, and because of that, they see the perpetrator as a sex-crazed rapist, and the victim as the ***** who inevitably had it coming. No pun intended.
Another cause of Victim Blaming can be found in fear. People need to find a way to blame the victim, so they can reassure themselves that they're safe.

Blaming the victim sounds like:
"She always hangs out at that bar, it was only a matter of time"

Being cautious is when you don't blindly trust the accuser. As terrible as it may well sound, emotions cannot play into this kind of situation, or at least not in a legal case.
People lie. That's the cold truth. Some people lie more then others, and about things that shouldn't be lied about. Because of that, you can't just take people at they're word when lives are at stake.
That's why it matters so much to find out who is lying, and who is honest.

In other words, "Trust; but verify."
You never know who is unscrupulous, and who is honest.

By the way, your "God will save the innocent" attitude comes across as very naive. I would suggest not saying "So what?" about people being wrongfully prosecuted.

Last edited by Paladin; August 23rd, 2013 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 02:55 PM
Silais's Avatar
Silais
Princess of the Law
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Quiet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Do not be mistaken, Silais. Being cautious and blaming the victim are two very different things.

People blame the victim because they can't understand the reason they were raped, they revoke the reason, or they are afraid. Rape is about domination, control, and to a point in some cases, bodily desires. The latter most being least common. The type of people who blame rape victims think that rape is all about sex, and because of that, they see the perpetrator as a sex-crazed rapist, and the victim as the ***** who inevitably had it coming. No pun intended.
Another cause of Victim Blaming can be found in fear. People need to find a way to blame the victim, so they can reassure themselves that they're safe.

Blaming the victim sounds like:
"She always hangs out at that bar, it was only a matter of time"

Being cautious is when you don't blindly trust the accuser. As terrible as it may well sound, emotions cannot play into this kind of situation, or at least not in a legal case.
People lie. That's the cold truth. Some people lie more then others, and about things that shouldn't be lied about. Because of that, you can't just take people at they're word when lives are at stake.
That's why it matters so much to find out who is lying, and who is honest.

In other words, "Trust; but verify."
You never know who is unscrupulous, and who is honest.

By the way, your "God will save the innocent" attitude comes across as very naive. I would suggest not saying "So what?" about people being wrongfully prosecuted.
Please do not treat me like an infant. I am aware of the difference between blind trust and caution. However, that does not change the fact that many people see rape victims as perpetrators to their own demise. It has nothing to do with fear or scapegoating; it has to do with the age-old idea that people must have acted a certain way to receive certain actions taken against them. Sure, there are some people who are too ignorant to realize rape is hardly about sexual desire (old conservative white men, for instance), but I rarely see this concept raised in defense of calling the victim dishonest. People are more willing to distrust someone who has been victimized because they are more eager to believe that the person did something to deserve what they received rather than them being helpless and unwilling. It's an American-sort-of concept; we want everyone to take responsibility for themselves and act in the "appropriate" way, and being a victim challenges that. People still ask what the rape victim was wearing, if she was drunk, or if she had a sexual history that was less than "acceptable".

I say "so what" because it should have no effect on the treatment of people claiming to have been raped; these kinds of biases affect how women (and men) are treated when they go to the authorities about sexual crimes. The cold truth is that you can never stop human beings from lying, and we should not assume that everyone is lying simply because human nature tends to use lying as a meat shield against persecution and prosecution. "Trust but verify" is a good philosophy, but that is different than immediate mistrust. People should have an unbiased view of a crime when researching and collecting evidence, otherwise what is the point of research and evidence?
__________________

Last edited by Silais; August 23rd, 2013 at 03:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 06:28 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin
 
Join Date: May 2013
It seems I have to reiterate myself again in this same thread.


"To further stress my standing, I do not, and wouldn't, assume honesty nor deceit with any such matter."

"To make an assumption is to form a theory before you learn the facts. When you have a theory before the facts, you'll bend them to fit what you assumed.

"In this particular case, I have damned neither the alleged victim, nor the accused. All I said was that basing a legal system on religious beliefs is hogwash. I personally do not believe that I have enough facts to judge intelligently."



I have been saying the same thing this whole time. I do not trust nor disbelieve anybody.
I have only said that assuming innocence or guilt doesn't matter, both are wretched mistakes on the part of the observer.

My reasoning behind explaining the difference between Victim Blaming and caution was that;
Quote:
I still can't believe that people think that because some women lie about rape that every woman that says they were raped deserves extreme scrutiny and mistrust. Why are we putting pressure on the victims? Yes, some women say they were raped when they were not—so what? This is victim blaming at its finest.
You seemed to have confused them.

By the by, how does;
"As terrible as it may well sound, emotions cannot play into this kind of situation, or at least not in a legal case."
Read to you as me saying that I automatically distrust any one who says they were raped?


Edit: Hum, Live, you don't mind us conversing general rape in this thread, do you? I didn't even think about it, but this thread is supposed to be for the Dubai case; and we seem to have drifted a bit. This line of discussion is still relevant, I hope?

Last edited by Paladin; August 23rd, 2013 at 06:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 11:59 AM.


Style by Nymphadora, artwork by Sa-Dui.
Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.