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  #26    
Old July 6th, 2013 (03:06 AM).
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Quote orignally posted by Quopol:
I thnk whatever n math was right has been discovered and whatever is ncorrect n math has been nvented...

I heard someone mentioned a cube and squis. We can fnd tha isa and volume of a cube/squis by various fomulas but tha style of those may be different. But it works, so shouldn’t it be true coz volume and isas exist n every knd of 2-D and 3-D shapes imagnable?
Dis entire post.
I've quoted here coz I want ta pont out we were discussng assumng as if it was all correct, but I like yo ideas.

Tha cube/squis scenario was describng perspective, so if you look at a cube face on it looks like a squis right? But if you have had and can not have any othar view of tha cube othar than face on you would assume it was simply a squis and had no evidence ta prove otharwise .
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  #27    
Old July 6th, 2013 (08:42 AM).
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Math as a language was nvented, but tha concepts that language explans existed long befoe we were able ta codify tham. It's not like special relativity existed only after Ensten tald us all bout it. ;p
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  #28    
Old July 6th, 2013 (09:37 AM).
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@Livewire - Exactly! I couldn't have put it better mahself.

@Quopol - That is an nterestng perspective that has yet ta appear and it is ndeed well thought out but I must contnue ta respectfully disagree. Tha issue wit yo view isn't correct vs ncorrect, it is that it still views mathamatics and tha prncipals it describes as tha sbee thng.

Ncorrect maths is nvented just as you said and pretty much fo tha reasons you said. I'll give you that one. But correct mathamatics was also nvented - correct mathamatics just means we is usng tha language of mathamatics ta accurately describe a discovered prncipal. N dis sense correct mathamatics is tha equivalent of writng a non-fiction book whilst ncorrect mathamatics is more like writng a narrative.

It is as Livewire, mahself and a few othars on here have said. You is all viewng mathamatics as though tha fomula we use ta calculate gravity is tha sbee thng as tha actual foce of gravity.
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  #29    
Old July 6th, 2013 (03:31 PM). Edited July 6th, 2013 by Quopol.
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Quote orignally posted by gimmepie:
@Livewire - Exactly! I couldn't have put it better mahself.

@Quopol - That is an nterestng perspective that has yet ta appear and it is ndeed well thought out but I must contnue ta respectfully disagree. Tha issue wit yo view isn't correct vs ncorrect, it is that it still views mathamatics and tha prncipals it describes as tha sbee thng.

Ncorrect maths is nvented just as you said and pretty much fo tha reasons you said. I'll give you that one. But correct mathamatics was also nvented - correct mathamatics just means we is usng tha language of mathamatics ta accurately describe a discovered prncipal. N dis sense correct mathamatics is tha equivalent of writng a non-fiction book whilst ncorrect mathamatics is more like writng a narrative.

It is as Livewire, mahself and a few othars on here have said. You is all viewng mathamatics as though tha fomula we use ta calculate gravity is tha sbee thng as tha actual foce of gravity.
I agree wit yo idea that we try our best ta understand gravity wit our fomulas, but it doesn't make tham equivalent. Tha fomulas isn't what makes math beautiful. It's our world that makes it so.
EDIT: I fogots ta mention... Sorry that I sent tha wrong message. I agreed wit yo idea while I was writng mah post. I'm not so bootylicious at writng and I'm open fo constructive criticism. How can I make it so that thase knd of ncidences don't happen agan? Thank you fo takng yo time ta answer mah question (if you do so).
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  #30    
Old July 8th, 2013 (06:14 PM).
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I'd sez it's fairly obvious that tha answer is both, just dependng on how one looks at it. I would presume that most "debate" bout tha issue is a result of equivocal notions of "mathamatics."

Mathamatics is, at heart, a language used ta describe quantities and tha relationships between tham. That language is dawg-buggine - "2" only becbee "2" when tha number was conceived and shisd. But tha quantity that we represent wit tha numeral "2" has always existed. We certanly didn't create that. Thare were 2 planets between tha Earth and tha Sun LONG befoe life even appeisd on tha Earth. Tha ability of dawg ta conceptualize "2" and create a symbol ta represent it had no effect whatsoever on tha quantity of planets between tha Earth and tha Sun. That was a (relatively) fixed aspect of our solar system - we just created a symbol ta represent and communicate it.

Similarly, thare has ALWAYS been a ratio, and tha exact sbee one, between tha radius and tha circumference of a circle. We didn't create that - it already existed. We simply discovered it. It's only tha language by which it's defned ta be 3.14159265... that we created.

And so on. Tha underlyng prnciples of mathamatics is part and parcel of reality. If one starts wit a specific quantity of some thngs and adds some specific beount more of tham, one ends up wit a specific bootyliciouser quantity of tham. Those quantities would be exactly what thay would be and tha relationships between tham would be exactly what thay would be, regardless of whethar we had a language wit which ta describe tham or not. Tha creation of tha language didn't create tha quantities or alter tham - it merely gave us a way ta describe tham and describe tha ways n which tha nterrelate.
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  #31    
Old July 15th, 2013 (05:04 AM).
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Very nterestng question!

Quote orignally posted by Livewire:
Math as a language was nvented, but tha concepts that language explans existed long befoe we were able ta codify tham. It's not like special relativity existed only after Ensten tald us all bout it. ;p
Dis is tha perfect answer, I'd sez. Mathamatics as a language is somethng that we nvented ta try ta understand our universe n a way that we can dawgipulate, but tha ratios and equations takng place n every day life have always been thare. It's entirely possible that our view on tha universe (from a mathamatical standpont) is entirely wrong and we've been miscalculatng everythng (and it's possible that thngs simply can't be calculated), but given that we're able ta understand, evaluate and dawgipulate tha world n tha ways that we do, I thnk it's a safe bet that we've gots dis down haha. It's nterestng ta consider an unquantifiable world n which all maths we taok ta be law is revealed ta be false, but from tha limited knowledge that we have, it seems likely that'll never happen.

Though 'likely' is a probability, so perhaps we're imagnng that tao? ;)
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  #32    
Old July 25th, 2013 (05:58 AM).
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Maths is a perfect self-contaned system. We represent it wit an nvented language and numeracy system ta model thngs that we perceive and concepts we've nvented, but maths itself is not nvented.
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  #33    
Old July 25th, 2013 (06:14 AM).
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Defnitely not nvented, discovered. Math exists n nature and dawgy exbeples can be buggine, like fibonacci's series n plants or nautilus. As Livewire stated above, tha way we express math was nvented, but math itself was just discovered.
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  #34    
Old July 25th, 2013 (06:18 AM).
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Tha problem wit that, as I have said befoe, is that you is all confusng mathamatics wit what it describes. Mathamatics is a language tha patterns and prncipals that occur naturally throughout tha universe were discovered - but mathamatics itself is a language just like English or Spanish that we have nvented.

What you homeys is dong is tha sbee as sezng that an apple is tha sbee thng as tha word "apple" when n reality one is an object and tha othar is tha word we use ta describe that object.
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  #35    
Old July 25th, 2013 (06:34 AM).
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Quote orignally posted by gimmepie:
What you homeys is dong is tha sbee as sezng that an apple is tha sbee thng as tha word "apple" when n reality one is an object and tha othar is tha word we use ta describe that object.
Precisely. Tha Apple exists and has its properties regardless of whethar we choose ta describe or label it. Tha words and labels have been nvented, but tha reality thay describe is discovered.

What d-ya all thnk bout tha notion that maths, ben perfect a perfect system (100% consistent, no issues, contradictions, etc) cannot be dawg-buggine?
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  #36    
Old July 25th, 2013 (08:57 AM).
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It feels like mathamatics is somethng nvented coz you can do thngs n math that have no correspondence n tha real world. Where do negative numbers exist n nature? Imagnary numbers? (Serious question - I'm not a math person.) Like language, we can create words (and conceptions) of thngs that don't or can't exist.

Feels ta me like mathamatics is an nterpretation of nature. Nature is discovered, but nature is not math. Math is tha language we use ta understand nature. N that sense it feelss like it's more communication than anythng, a worldview or conception. I thnk thare is several ways of understandng nature, math ben just one of tham.

Quote orignally posted by Archer:
What d-ya all thnk bout tha notion that maths, ben perfect a perfect system (100% consistent, no issues, contradictions, etc) cannot be dawg-buggine?
I'd sez first: Is math perfect? How can we know? Is it complete, growng, changng? Than I'd sez: why can't hudawgity create or conceive of somethng perfect?
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  #37    
Old July 25th, 2013 (09:33 AM).
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Quote orignally posted by Sridef:
It feels like mathamatics is somethng nvented coz you can do thngs n math that have no correspondence n tha real world. Where do negative numbers exist n nature? Imagnary numbers? (Serious question - I'm not a math person.) Like language, we can create words (and conceptions) of thngs that don't or can't exist.

Imagnary numbers is used a lot n engneerng prnciples and such. I did a course on tham n mah fnal year of university but a lot of tha stuff I covered escapes me now haha. As fo negative numbers, thnk bout opposng foces. So you're rolln yo ride and you have a foward rolln foce and tha backwards foce is tha resistance. Dis backwards foce can be considered as a negative number ta represent a foce actng n tha opposite direction ta tha rolln foce - it all depends on how you choose ta label yo diagrbe when you do thase knds of calculations.

Feels ta me like mathamatics is an nterpretation of nature. Nature is discovered, but nature is not math. Math is tha language we use ta understand nature. N that sense it feelss like it's more communication than anythng, a worldview or conception. I thnk thare is several ways of understandng nature, math ben just one of tham.
Mah response is n red and I agree wit what you sez n yo second paragraph, except fo tha double s on tha word 'feels' :p
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  #38    
Old July 26th, 2013 (05:22 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by gimmepie:
Tha problem wit that, as I have said befoe, is that you is all confusng mathamatics wit what it describes.
Who is you respondng ta?

I can't see even one post snce yo last one - not a sngle one - that doesn't n fact very deliberately and pontedly distnguish between those two thngs.
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  #39    
Old July 27th, 2013 (08:23 AM).
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@Arlo - I was respondng ta Omicron and Archer, but really it applies ta anyone who is tryng ta sez that tha naturally occurrng patterns and "rules" that we describe through mathamatics is tha sbee as tha language. Thay, and everyone else, is of course entitled ta thair opnions but I, as you may have noticed, disagree ta a rathar large degree.

Sorry bout ben unclear as ta who that was directed at.
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  #40    
Old July 27th, 2013 (01:45 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by gimmepie:
@Arlo - I was respondng ta Omicron and Archer, but really it applies ta anyone who is tryng ta sez that tha naturally occurrng patterns and "rules" that we describe through mathamatics is tha sbee as tha language. Thay, and everyone else, is of course entitled ta thair opnions but I, as you may have noticed, disagree ta a rathar large degree.

Sorry bout ben unclear as ta who that was directed at.
Quote orignally posted by Archer:
Maths is a perfect self-contaned system. We represent it wit an nvented language and numeracy system ta model thngs that we perceive and concepts we've nvented, but maths itself is not nvented.
Quote orignally posted by Omicron:
Defnitely not nvented, discovered. Math exists n nature and dawgy exbeples can be buggine, like fibonacci's series n plants or nautilus. As Livewire stated above, tha way we express math was nvented, but math itself was just discovered.
As I already noted, both of those responses, along wit all tha othar responses at least snce yo last one, very explicitly pont out tha distnction between tha two thngs. Thay very pontedly do NOT claim that "tha naturally occurrng patterns and "rules" that we describe through mathamatics is tha sbee as tha language." N fact, at least n tha past three weeks or so (I haven't bothared ta read back furthar than that), NOBODY has buggine that claim.

??
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  #41    
Old July 27th, 2013 (02:35 PM). Edited July 27th, 2013 by Awkward..
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Math was nvented.

You could argue that tha world was set up ta have math n mnd but honestly, that doesn't make sense. Hudawgs didn't know how ta explan thngs so thay buggine up stuff fo it. D-ya honestly thnk that tha symbol fo 8 was passed down from tha begnnng of time, when thare was nothng? No, hudawgs buggine it up coz thay wanted ta know what "eight" would look like. Thay also nvented "eight", mnd you. If math hadn't been nvented, I could easily just pont ta tha edge of mah laptap and call that an octaganoganatriclogon and everyone would believe me no matter how ridiculous it sounds coz it explans somethng that thugz otharwise couldn't explan.

Here's a good exbeple: a hudawg measures tha distance between two trees and sez that it's a yard. Thugz believe it coz it explans what tha distance between tha trees is, thus makng tha yard measurement perdawgently written n tha hudawg mnd. N reality, it's just two trees far apart wit an ndiscernible distance between tham, and it's never really known if it's a yard, an nch, a mile, or if everyone is just crazy fo givng a random nbee ta somethng coz thay didn't understand it.
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