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  #1    
Old August 23rd, 2013 (10:20 AM).
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MELBOURNE, Australia -- Furious at the killing of an Australian college baseball player in Oklahoma, a senior figure in the victim's home country blamed the “gun culture” of United States for the death, saying it was “corrupting the world."
“The U.S. has chosen the pathway of illogical policy with regard to guns," Australia’s former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer said Friday. "They cannot expect not to have any criticism of it worldwide.”
“I am angry because it is corrupting the world, this gun culture of the United States.”
His remarks came as the family of slain catcher Christopher Lane struggled to understand why three teens killed him, apparently telling cops they were bored.
"He was a kid on the cusp of making his life," the victim’s father, Peter, told The Age newspaper in Melbourne. "He gave up a lot to follow his dreams. There's not going to be any good come out of this because it was just so senseless."
Lane, 22, had left Melbourne to attend East Central University in Ada, Oklahoma, where he was on a baseball scholarship.
Fischer said the lack of gun control in the U.S. had led to a massacre “each and every year since 1996” - in contrast to Australia, which has restrictions on firearms ownership.
He said the majority of illegally obtained guns used in crimes in Australia and Mexico had come from the U.S.
He added that he was not against guns, and kept weapons at his rural home, but added: "I am in favor of firearms sensible regulations to have the best of both worlds.

Three teenagers have been charged in what some are calling the "thrill killing" of a college baseball star after one of the suspects told officials "we were bored. We had nothing to do. We decided we'd kill somebody."
"Anybody can tomorrow go to a gun show in Oklahoma or California and buy a gun without a simple background check. That is illogical.”
He also said Australians should “think twice” before visiting the U.S.
"I’m not using the word boycott but I do say Australians should think twice and take into acct the risk of going to the USA in the circumstances that unfold there," saying visitors would be "15 times more likely to be shot dead than if they stayed in Australia, per capita."
In a statement on an a website set up to raise money for the funeral, Lane's family said they were "touched" by the donations, which by Friday morning had rocketed past the $15,000 target - topping $123,000.
“We are so grateful for everyone’s generosity and truly touched by the support we have received,” they said in a statement posted on the site. “We are blessed now be able to give Chris the farewell he deserves.”
Michael Veal, who played alongside Lane on the East Central University's baseball team, set up the fund Monday to help pay for his friend’s family to fly from Australia and receive his body, before taking it back home to be buried.
“Every cent is greatly appreciated and all donations will go right to his family! I recently spoke to Chris's father and he told me that if there is any money left over they will start a Christopher Lane Foundation,” he wrote.

Lane's body was expected to be flown back to Australia later Friday.
His American girlfriend, Sarah Harper, 22, told NBC News his killing was "the most shocking thing I've ever experienced."
James Francis Edwards Jr., 15, and Chancey Allen Luna, 16, were charged with first-degree murder Tuesday. Michael Dewayne Jones, 17, was charged with being an accessory to murder after the fact and with firing a weapon.
All were charged as adults, according to the Stephens County District Attorney’s Office.
One of three teens charged in the attack told police that they shot Lane because they “were bored” and decided to kill somebody.
In a chilling seven-minute 911 recording released Wednesday by prosecutors, the caller who reported the killing can be heard resisting the panic, while pleading for help.
The woman who identified herself as Joyce Smith, reported to the dispatcher that she did not know the gunshot victim.
"He was standing in the roadway and he fell over, and as I come by, he just fell over in the ditch,” she said.
I...I just don't know what to say to this. It's infuriating. I'm embarrassed for this man. And I'm embarrassed for his country.

The homicide rate in the United States 4.7 murders per 100,000. Or, .0047%. In addition, homicide is tied with Parkinson's Disease for deaths in the United States. You are more likely to kill yourself than kill someone else; suicide is the 11th most common cause of death in the United States, while homicide is 15th. To say that America is incredibly unsafe and that Australia should boycott our country because they cannot tour the nation without being in fear of being murdered is absolutely ridiculous. Australia may have a lower murder rate than the U.S., but I can assure you we are no Somalia or Syria in terms of how many of our citizens are killed by each other. For goodness sake.

Furthermore, these three boys were bored. They killed this man because they felt like it. Criminals kill for a variety of reasons because they're CRIMINALS. People who buy guns at gun shows should not be lumped into the same category as criminals, nor should regular citizens with permits to use and carry guns in public. Criminals will come into possession of guns regardless of how strict our gun laws are; again, I say that they're CRIMINALS. They intend to do harm, and they will use guns to do harm. Is that not clear?

Look at prohibition of alcohol in the United States. Once alcohol was illegal, did all consumption of alcohol disappear? Of course not. Underground markets flourished because of it. No matter how strict the laws were against it, alcohol consumption continued, STAGGERINGLY. Do you really think that restricting gun use and purchasing is going to reduce gun-related crimes?Underground markets would foam at the mouth at the opportunity to sell firearms against U.S. law. Guns will always be available to criminals. Murderers will continue to use guns to murder, whether guns are legal or not.

I understand this man is grieving. But still, to demonize the United States as an unsafe, murder-rampant country is not only irresponsible but untrue. I'm sorry, but if someone truly thinks our country is unsafe, feel free to NOT come here. But do not try to make it seem as if our country is out to kill tourists and innocent lives when it is a small group of criminals who engage in this type of behavior.
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Old August 23rd, 2013 (10:29 AM).
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My post from your accidental repeat thread:

It's not guns, the gun culture, or the United States that is the problem, it's the people behind the guns that is. I know many extremely responsible gun owners who would never encourage or engage in such selfless acts. One can only agree that the type of people who do this obviously have loose screws, or just don't give a flying hoot about humanity, but I'd like to agree more with the former. With the lack of education and lack of accessibility to healthcare, specifically mental healthcare, in the United States, it comes as no surprise that these vicious crimes are occurring, and occurring at high rates. Obviously these aren't the only solutions to help stop people from using guns incorrectly, but hell, if these types of things were made more available to society, I'm sure we would see a dramatic decrease in the amount of horrid crime occurring, specifically with crime where the culprit uses a weapon such as a gun. Also, what has the world come to that we are resorting to blaming inanimate objects for doing such unscrupulous things?
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Old August 23rd, 2013 (10:34 AM).
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Thanks for your reply, I don't know why PCforums decided to post my thread twice!
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  #4    
Old August 23rd, 2013 (10:55 PM).
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Originally Posted by Gyardosamped View Post
My post from your accidental repeat thread:

It's not guns, the gun culture, or the United States that is the problem, it's the people behind the guns that is. I know many extremely responsible gun owners who would never encourage or engage in such selfless acts. One can only agree that the type of people who do this obviously have loose screws, or just don't give a flying hoot about humanity, but I'd like to agree more with the former. With the lack of education and lack of accessibility to healthcare, specifically mental healthcare, in the United States, it comes as no surprise that these vicious crimes are occurring, and occurring at high rates. Obviously these aren't the only solutions to help stop people from using guns incorrectly, but hell, if these types of things were made more available to society, I'm sure we would see a dramatic decrease in the amount of horrid crime occurring, specifically with crime where the culprit uses a weapon such as a gun. Also, what has the world come to that we are resorting to blaming inanimate objects for doing such unscrupulous things?
I don't disagree with you. It is the people who do these things and cause this pain and suffering, but if we as a society continue to allow these people who are the problem to carry guns, that's a problem. There should at least be some sort of regulation.
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  #5    
Old August 23rd, 2013 (11:27 PM).
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Do you really think that restricting gun use and purchasing is going to reduce gun-related crimes?
Well. Taking my own country as an example (Sweden) there are not a lot of guns at all in regular people's homes. Having a gun is odd and unusual and you have to have a special locker for it and license and lots of stuff like that. People don't have guns. The general mindset is that you don't have a gun. Why would you have a gun? Why would you ever need a gun?

But if guns were suddenly prohibited in the US, I imagine the climate wouldn't change overnight to be more like it is here. For some reason, the mindset in the US seems to be "I have the right to have a gun to defend myself". Against what? ._. if guns weren't as easily obtainable, then there wouldn't be as many guns. I'd like to hope. Would the US really deteriorate into anarchy if gun ownership was restricted more?
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  #6    
Old August 24th, 2013 (12:56 AM). Edited August 24th, 2013 by Limerent.
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Let me first just say I'm embarrassed for your country, Silais.
Now: “The U.S. has chosen the pathway of illogical policy with regard to guns," Australia’s former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer said Friday. "They cannot expect not to have any criticism of it worldwide.”
That is completely true, quite frankly I see America as a country to be full of absolute idiots "Oh yeah it's 'MURICAH, FREEDOMS YO, Including the Freedom to be able to shoot and kill innocent people if you're inclined to do so." Notice I said inclined to do so, obviously you're probably going to prison but if an individual decided that they would risk it, didn't care or just want to shoot people because they're bored then there are actually no substantive measures in America to prevent people from obtaining the most effective killing machines available and carrying out murders and atrocities.

Now yes you could say it's silly that we shouldn't visit America because your chance of being murdered is .0047% but then it reads: "15 times more likely to be shot dead than if they stayed in Australia, per capita." If those statistics are right then that is a HUGE amount, and I'm sorry but I will not be visiting your country anytime soon. It isn't so much the safety, but the disgrace your nation should feel at allowing such violence but blatantly ignores bleating illogical rhetoric that makes me not want to go there.

To reply to your 2nd point no you are not Somalia or Syria. No, you are not a third world lawless country where these things are commonplace. You are AMERICA, global superpower, first world country, and for America to have such a high murder/gun crime rate in proportion to other first world countries like Australia or Sweden, and worse, actually not do anything about it is disgraceful!

Third point, legal firearms kill just as well as illegal ones. Say I went around to various shops in a district and purchased a stockpile of firearms and ammunition. Am I doing anything illegal? Probably not. I am not a criminal. It is within my rights to own a gun no matter what right? But then I use those guns to shoot someone because I'm feeling bored. Just having so many firearms readily available for nearly anyone is the problem, not illegal guns, not the idea that criminals will get illegal guns from Mexico and then slaughter innocent people who are defenseless because they have legal guns, by not doing anything to control the availability of weapons you are practically giving anyone the right to have the capability to commit murder with firearms. Also, how hard is it to make a legal gun illegal? Just scrape the serial number off, give it to someone else without filling in paperwork and Sam's your uncle. (see what I did there? )

Now, in regards to prohibition and gun control. Will there be a black market for weapons? Yes. But it will be SO much harder to get a gun as opposed to just strolling into WalMart and buying one with no to few restrictions. Gun crime will not reduce to 0%. But it will greatly decrease, and isn't that a worthy goal?

Quote:
Do you really think that restricting gun use and purchasing is going to reduce gun-related crimes?
Yes. Immensely. Oh and Tim Fischer is wrong, U.S gun crime is not corrupting the world. It is simply disgracing the reputation of the United States of America. I will not go to your backwards free for all country, but I feel sorry for those who live there or tourists who get murdered like this poor Aussie kid, who was at so much more risk than in Australia or another first world country. I see the American view as completely illogical, and will debate you to the death

Just going to leave this here, it's comedy, but depicts the American insanity perfectly.


EDIT: Oh wow watch Part 2 and 3, so true.


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  #7    
Old August 24th, 2013 (02:36 AM).
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The United State - Land of the free. You can own a gun, but even crossing the road can be a crime.

Echoing most of what O07_eleven said. Making guns illegal wouldn't stop all gun crime, however it would stop normal households owning one.

That means no 'accidental' gun deaths, no bored/crazy/unstable people killing people.

And in fact, since you brought up the suicide thing, it would actually lower the suicide rate. Shooting yourself is a sure-fire way to die, any other way is a lot less instantaneous, requires planning and can ultimately fail.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (05:31 AM).
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Gotta say I'm with O07 here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silais View Post

Look at prohibition of alcohol in the United States. Once alcohol was illegal, did all consumption of alcohol disappear? Of course not. Underground markets flourished because of it. No matter how strict the laws were against it, alcohol consumption continued, STAGGERINGLY. Do you really think that restricting gun use and purchasing is going to reduce gun-related crimes?Underground markets would foam at the mouth at the opportunity to sell firearms against U.S. law. Guns will always be available to criminals. Murderers will continue to use guns to murder, whether guns are legal or not.
I disagree. I believe the amount of owners of guns will stay at exactly the same. But the amount of legal gun owners will drop dramatically.
You're going to get this initial wave of defiance because "'Murrica, land of the free. We should be able to have guns if we choose" And I agree, if you want a gun and submit to a background check, purchase appropriate licensing, equipment and training that certifies you as safe to carry a firearm, by all means.
But the vast majority that don't agree with the new firearm act will keep their guns and they are most definitely the problem. If they don't follow the law, they are criminals and therefore should not have a gun. Do you see how this loops?
Give about 24-36 months and people start getting arrested for having an unlicensed firearm, others will start to realise the seriousness and have their guns registered or try harder to keep it a secret (which fails because they're hardcore gun enthusiasts and love showing off their prize babies).

This should have been done YEARS ago and there wouldn't be this problem.

By having these laws in place, there is a large amount of people who will be refused guns at least for a short while which will save lives, and their children will be less inclined to shoot someone because "they were bored".

Get your **** together America, you wonder why nobody likes you.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (06:13 AM).
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I'm more shocked about the teenagers' motivations than the U.S.'s influence on guns, since it doesn't help the idea that teenagers are portrayed as irresponsible monsters when one of them said they were bored and decided to kill someone. Really, it's important for us to keep guns in case of a possible zombie invasion, which is the second most realistic way of how the world will end since zombies are created by undiscovered viruses, as provided by World War Z. Guns are the most effective weapons to use to protect yourself against them, because low-ranged weapons leaves you vulnerable at getting bitten and become a zombie yourself. But then again, this Australia's silly policies we're talking about.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (07:02 AM).
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Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
Really, it's important for us to keep guns in case of a possible zombie invasion, which is the second most realistic way of how the world will end since zombies are created by undiscovered viruses, as provided by World War Z. Guns are the most effective weapons to use to protect yourself against them, because low-ranged weapons leaves you vulnerable at getting bitten and become a zombie yourself. But then again, this Australia's silly policies we're talking about.
Somebody's been watching "The Walking Dead" too much...

You know... I call horse-&%$# at this claim of yours, because when has anybody ever seen a real zombie outside of horror movies & TV shows?! They. Do not. Exist. Period!

I'm sorry, but those who think the Zombie apocalypse will be real are the only thing that gets me going more than this topic at hand.

Regardless, guns as a whole have a great deal of responsibility, & those who can't uphold it shouldn't even own one. If the person does kill someone with a legally-obtained gun, This really should be put on their arrest record & get put out on the general public for all to see (on the internet, that is...) That way, firearm vendors can check a buyer's criminal record, if applicable, & see if they have a history of instigating any sort of gun violence. If they do have such a history, they're ineligible for purchase of any kind of firearm in the legal standpoint. This is something that all legal gun markets must do, or else they'll face government closure.

Though I understand that it might not stop all the gun violence, this, I'm hoping, will significantly reduce innocent deaths from people wielding firearms obtained legally. After all, I do believe in the saying, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
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Old August 25th, 2013 (09:06 AM). Edited August 25th, 2013 by CarcharOdin.
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I just want to point out that those of you who believe that because we Americans have the right to bear arms we have a right to kill innocent people, you're dead wrong and you're also technically following a similar mindset to these three kids. At least that's how I see it.

Guns aren't the problem, people are. Regulations I'm okay with so long as they're agreeable (like background checks at gun shows), but I think the bottom line is more people, American and otherwise need to understand:

Right to bear arms =/= right to murder.

I think if more people understood that equation, we'd have less problems.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (12:00 PM). Edited August 25th, 2013 by Alice.
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Lots of strong opinions on both sides here... Guns are dangerous. They give people the ability to kill others much easier than through any other means. If they didn't exist, we would be much safer, because it would take more than just one pull of a trigger to kill us... school shootings wouldn't happen, and there would be far fewer murders, simply because they're less convenient. At the same time, you have to realize that guns do exist, and are so widespread in America that were they to become illegal, we would have a war on our hands trying to take them away. On top of that, you have to consider that yes, we probably could take guns away from our honest citizens, but not from gangs and criminals. This means that us honest folk can no longer defend ourselves (as well) against criminals, which doesn't sound very good to me. It's not such a black and white issue (nothing is), and neither banning guns, nor leaving them be are the right answers. I think it's possible to work toward banning them entirely, and would support that... but in the meantime, the first steps should be to enforce more strict regulation. A compromise.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (01:52 PM).
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Originally Posted by CarcharOdin View Post
I just want to point out that those of you who believe that because we Americans have the right to bear arms we have a right to kill innocent people, you're dead wrong and you're also technically following a similar mindset to these three kids. At least that's how I see it.

Guns aren't the problem, people are. Regulations I'm okay with so long as they're agreeable (like background checks at gun shows), but I think the bottom line is more people, American and otherwise need to understand:

Right to bear arms =/= right to murder.

I think if more people understood that equation, we'd have less problems.
Well I partially understand what you're saying, of course a right to bear arms does not equal a right to murder. I think you can still bear arms safely and responsibly with correct checks and restrictions. But near unrestricted access to firearms does significantly increase the capability of people to commit murder, because it's just that much easier to get a gun.

Which leads me on to your second point. Guns and people are the problem. People will always have the ability and sometimes motivation to do evil things, you can't change that. But what you CAN change is the guns. With limited access to guns and extremely strict licensing it's very unlikely a gun will fall into the hands of someone who wants to do harm. Easy guns+Bad people= very bad things happen. Whereas in Australia where those kids would have found it near impossible to get a gun what would have happened? They probably would have roughed up the baseballer with fists because they were bored and he would probably still be alive today. Still a bad event but not nearly as bad as with guns in the mix. Hence why Australia is 15x safer in terms of gun violence. Control actually works.

I'll just say even getting an illegal gun is hard here due to very strenuous customs monitoring, you'll probably get caught smuggling anything in.
Also, didn't the Aurora shooter buy guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition online with few checks? That's a good example as to what is wrong with the American gun system.
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Old August 25th, 2013 (02:38 PM).
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Ok, let's bacccckkkkkk up

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Just going to leave this here, it's comedy, but depicts the American insanity perfectly.
That depicts the attitude of but only a fraction of most Americans, so I'd appreciate it if we could stop generalizing about three hundred million people.

That being said, this country does have major issues with its gun culture, and violence in general. We look to a 250ish year old amendment to substantiate our individual right to bear arms. There is no mention of said right in said amendement.

gg
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Old August 25th, 2013 (02:47 PM).
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District of Columbia VS Heller. I agree with it, but I do think background checks at gun shows and smart-guns are regulations that I think need to be looked into.

I do think a rewording of the constitution is needed to clear up any confusion, though. Unfortunately, when it comes to the prospect of rewriting the U.S. constitution itself, I can't think of a single person on this planet who I'd entrust that kind of responsibility to, including myself.
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Old August 26th, 2013 (01:11 PM).
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What about austtalias gun policy it is rediculous how do bikey gang members come into possesion of semi automatics.

I believe guns should be allowed to be bought by anyone without a mental disorder or a criminal past when I say mental disorder I mean as in someone who could have skystafreeneya. Don't know how to spell it and it is possible those "voices" will tell the people to go kill others .
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Old August 26th, 2013 (04:31 PM).
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Should Canadians think twice about visiting US because its murder rate is three times as high?

Should Japanese think twice about visiting Australia because its murder rate is three times as high?

I've never heard of anybody killing someone because they picked up a violent attitude in another country.
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Old August 26th, 2013 (11:21 PM).
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Originally Posted by \/ View Post
Should Canadians think twice about visiting US because its murder rate is three times as high?

Should Japanese think twice about visiting Australia because its murder rate is three times as high?

I've never heard of anybody killing someone because they picked up a violent attitude in another country.
...I'd imagine the point is that you're three times more likely to get killed, not three times more likely to become a murderer.
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Old August 27th, 2013 (02:34 AM).
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Originally Posted by chuckleslucifer View Post
What about austtalias gun policy it is rediculous how do bikey gang members come into possesion of semi automatics.

I believe guns should be allowed to be bought by anyone without a mental disorder or a criminal past when I say mental disorder I mean as in someone who could have skystafreeneya. Don't know how to spell it and it is possible those "voices" will tell the people to go kill others .
We do have a blackmarket in Australia just the same as every other country. Funny thing too, in the news article I read on this exact subject there was a statistic, that was shockingly high (something like 80% but I can't be sure on the exact number), that said the majority of illegal guns in Australia were being sourced in America.

Schizophrenia

And mental disorders are a lot more broad than you might believe. People who suffer Post-traumatic stress legally have a mental disorder but PTS can be as minimal as a concussion, or a fear of flying.
People with more serious conditions aren't the only cause of murder in the world either. Those teenagers are completely sane, not once has any kind of medical condition been mentioned.
I'm willing to put my money on the assumption that less than 20% of all gun-related murders were triggered(lolpun) by some kind of serious mental illness.
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Old August 27th, 2013 (10:52 AM).
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Restricting myself just to the whole Australia-America travel safety idea and not to the gun debate itself (which I could write a lot more on), no, of course you're still incredibly unlikely to be killed by guns in America or Australia or most parts of the world. The point was not that you were in so much danger by traveling to the US, but that you're going to a country that (according to the deputy prime minister) is full of people who don't seem willing or able to address their relatively large gun homicide problem.

Basically, he's saying that the problem with America isn't that we've got a gun problem (every country has problems) but that we aren't addressing it.
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Old August 31st, 2013 (08:38 AM).
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Those teenagers are completely sane, not once has any kind of medical condition been mentioned.
How the hell is anyone sane if the reason for shooting someone was "We were bored"? That'd be typical violent psychopathic behavior. It's not that they didn't know better, it's because they were psychopaths devoid of empathy. Now that that's out of the way....

I agree with some of the posters that more checks should be in place for buying any kind of firearm. I also believe that people should learn to be more responsible if they have firearms in their homes. Gun related deaths are still too high, whether accidental, or on purpose. More should be done by both the U.S government, and the citizens.

I did see something on the news yesterday about a program being brought in place to make faculty more aware about gun violence in schools, and taking a firm stance to end it and help stop it. It was a huge reality check. If there was something like this to educate children more about firearms, and what to do if they have firearms in their household... that'd be a great start. Educate the children a bit more about it. Give them a huge dosage of a reality check, because most teens, whether in junior high, or high school, only know firearms from TV, movies, and video games.
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Old September 5th, 2013 (12:56 PM). Edited September 5th, 2013 by Toutebelle.
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Originally Posted by O07_eleven View Post
Let me first just say I'm embarrassed for your country, Silais.
Now: “The U.S. has chosen the pathway of illogical policy with regard to guns," Australia’s former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer said Friday. "They cannot expect not to have any criticism of it worldwide.”
That is completely true, quite frankly I see America as a country to be full of absolute idiots "Oh yeah it's 'MURICAH, FREEDOMS YO, Including the Freedom to be able to shoot and kill innocent people if you're inclined to do so." Notice I said inclined to do so, obviously you're probably going to prison but if an individual decided that they would risk it, didn't care or just want to shoot people because they're bored then there are actually no substantive measures in America to prevent people from obtaining the most effective killing machines available and carrying out murders and atrocities.
Most Americans don't live in the Deep South. It's because Australian newspapers don't seem to realize that white Mississippians and Alabamans don't speak for all Americans. Considering that many foreign tourists refuse to visit rural America, I'm surprised they think we all act like stereotypical people from the rural South. Seriously, I wish non-Americans would visit the real America - not just NYC and LA (and they don't even visit the old stuff in the cities!). I'd be more than happy to visit a rural area in Europe.

I am American, and I am from a very liberal area. We don't like people like Dick Cheney who parade their guns around.
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Old September 8th, 2013 (08:47 AM).
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Please. Are you seriously trying to equate prohibition with banning guns? The average person likes to have a drink fairly often. The average person does not feel the need to commit homicide, or shoot anything for that matter. My point is that the only reason prohibition didn't work was because of the sheer scale of demand for alcohol. This demand far exceeds to the demand to own a lethal weapon.

But I didn't even need to say all that in order to demonstrate how poor op's argument is. Yes, of course it is inevitable that there would be an illegal market for guns, but you cannot deny that the number of guns would decrease were they banned. It's quite simple : Less guns=less gun crime=less homicides. Look at the homicide rate in any country that has made firearms illegal and you will see this. What you're saying is that because it's hard to ban guns, you shouldn't even try? It might take 100 years, but the US homicide rate would decrease, and I would no longer have to hear about the latest american school shooting every other week on the radio.
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Old September 8th, 2013 (12:37 PM).
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Originally Posted by goldengyarados View Post
Please. Are you seriously trying to equate prohibition with banning guns? The average person likes to have a drink fairly often. The average person does not feel the need to commit homicide, or shoot anything for that matter. My point is that the only reason prohibition didn't work was because of the sheer scale of demand for alcohol. This demand far exceeds to the demand to own a lethal weapon.

But I didn't even need to say all that in order to demonstrate how poor op's argument is. Yes, of course it is inevitable that there would be an illegal market for guns, but you cannot deny that the number of guns would decrease were they banned. It's quite simple : Less guns=less gun crime=less homicides. Look at the homicide rate in any country that has made firearms illegal and you will see this. What you're saying is that because it's hard to ban guns, you shouldn't even try? It might take 100 years, but the US homicide rate would decrease, and I would no longer have to hear about the latest american school shooting every other week on the radio.
Your response does not change the fact that the United States' homicide rate is not nearly as high as people like to claim that it is. By the way, guns are not simply used for homicide; people collect them, and use them for hunting. I live in the Midwest; hunting is a massive part of our culture here. To justify a claim that we should ban guns simply because they can wound and kill people is, in my opinion, a poor argument. Should we ban other items that can wound or kill people even if they are used in other ways? Should we ban cars because people get into accidents that can wound or kill people? A firearm becomes a weapon when someone turns it against another with the mentality to do harm. Without the criminal intent, that weapon is a tool.

Did I say I was equating prohibition with gun control? No. I stated that similar instances would occur; a larger black market would grow, and there would be no real change in the amount of guns being sold to criminals and people who wish to go under the table to receive items and services they feel they need or deserve.
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Old September 8th, 2013 (01:03 PM).
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Your response does not change the fact that the United States' homicide rate is not nearly as high as people like to claim that it is. By the way, guns are not simply used for homicide; people collect them, and use them for hunting. I live in the Midwest; hunting is a massive part of our culture here. To justify a claim that we should ban guns simply because they can wound and kill people is, in my opinion, a poor argument. Should we ban other items that can wound or kill people even if they are used in other ways? Should we ban cars because people get into accidents that can wound or kill people? A firearm becomes a weapon when someone turns it against another with the mentality to do harm. Without the criminal intent, that weapon is a tool.

Did I say I was equating prohibition with gun control? No. I stated that similar instances would occur; a larger black market would grow, and there would be no real change in the amount of guns being sold to criminals and people who wish to go under the table to receive items and services they feel they need or deserve.
Yeah, the homicide rate is most probably exaggerated, I'll agree with you there. I apologise If I was previously unclear, but I am not in favour on a ban on all guns, I just think that the gun licensing laws should be far stricter in the US. Where I live (England) you can still obtain a gun license, so you can still hunt, but they given out far more selectively. I have to disagree with you on the latter portion of your argument, the primary purpose of guns is to kill, this is not the case with any other tool. You simply cannot trust the general population with such dangerous weapons. If you give someone the means to massacre people, some will take that opportunity, this is an inevitability of human nature. So sure, maybe some people can't collect guns, but is it not preferable to reduce needless loss of human life? Are you claiming all humans are all going to become saints who would never dream of committing multiple homicides if given the means? Because I'm afraid that the entirety of human history is not exactly on your side here.
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