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  #26    
Old August 23rd, 2013, 08:17 AM
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I'm perfectly fine with abortion in the first trimester. Once you get into the second and third trimesters things start to become a little murky.
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  #27    
Old August 24th, 2013, 01:26 AM
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On the other hand, I think if someone is capable of making the decision to have sex, they should face the consequences that come with it.
When we lived in caves and hunted deer and gathered berries all day, some thousands of years ago, sex was probably for reproduction yes. Males and females alike wanted to have a good time, because evolution has made it so that sex feels good to us just so that we have some kind of drive to reproduce.

Nowadays, we want to have half that. Sex for fun and pleasure, but not always (most often not, I think) the kid that could be the consequence of it. So we invent strategies like pills and condoms to help with that, but sometimes they don't help and sometimes women get raped or otherwise pregnant against their will. In these cases, I don't see anything wrong with abortion. It's a different thing if you decided to try and get a child and then midway decided that no, we're not ready, we changed our minds. That's just stupid. But abortion when the pregnancy was a mistake, is totally fine.

So many people die every day, some naturally, others in cold blood in conflicts and others in starvation or catastrophies. Etc etc. In the end, a child that is not yet born has not lived a life yet and taking away that "life" is not the end of the world. Some of you might think I'm extreme, but idk I'm just scientific or something. I wouldn't think of what life this potential child could potentially have lived because it's not happened and is never going to happen if abortion is made so why worry about it. Save those who are alive instead of bringing more unwanted (sounds harsh but) humans into the overpopulated world.

On some level, I want to agree with Dominic; it's a bit stupid to have sex if you aren't prepared for the consequences. It is about reproduction when it all comes down to it biologically, after all. But in our modern world it's become so much more. It probably has been in other times in history too. Because it feels so good, it's a fact. We're just spoiled with our condoms and pills now. And I know I wouldn't want to stop having sex just because I don't want a kid right now :x

Now, don't start hatin' :]
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  #28    
Old August 24th, 2013, 06:35 AM
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Something that feels implied and is not being said in this thread--let me stress that no one has openly said this--is the idea that women who don't want children should just not have sex. It's okay for men to enjoy sex, but not women. It's not anyone's fault because society teaches everyone this. The reality is that women should be allowed to enjoy sex just as much as men do. Sex is not just for reproduction and those who argue that it is... I'm heavily inclined to believe they've never had it because that **** feels amazing.
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  #29    
Old August 24th, 2013, 08:57 AM
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Personally, I don't like the idea of abortion.

Well, maybe this was already stated already...but I think abortion might be an option if, and only if, the mother became pregnant because of rape. Its just not right to make a woman and a child suffer just because of an 'unfortunate event'. It just depends on the woman.
BUT
Abortion should NOT be an option if the woman willingly engaged into sex. It just feels not right to say that you engaged into it just because of fun. well, you wanna have fun? there's a lot of fun things you can do other than sex. The people who engage in this activity must, and most likely know, what its circumstances are, especially the woman.
Well, there's also some circumstances where these people used contraceptives, but still produced a fetus/baby. I say, they should be more disciplined. Its not like you'll have 100% protection when using those things, duh.

Well, that's just my opinion...but every one has a choice, a decision to make. It depends on you where you'll take your life. Whether on the right path, or the hard path. That's all. I rest my case.
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  #30    
Old August 24th, 2013, 03:17 PM
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Nobody is required by law to surrender use of their body to another person under any circumstances, so I don't see why we need an exception for abortion.

And as for my hypothetical if the baby is alive then we'd just have to c-section it but anyways.
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  #31    
Old August 24th, 2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Yuffie View Post
Something that feels implied and is not being said in this thread--let me stress that no one has openly said this--is the idea that women who don't want children should just not have sex. It's okay for men to enjoy sex, but not women. It's not anyone's fault because society teaches everyone this. The reality is that women should be allowed to enjoy sex just as much as men do. Sex is not just for reproduction and those who argue that it is... I'm heavily inclined to believe they've never had it because that **** feels amazing.
o.O I think men who don't want to end up with baby mamas kinda sorta shouldn't? have sex, or rather have sex safely and keep that under control. Because it goes both ways, I don't know why it logically wouldn't... You seem to be implying that the sensation of sex is somehow more significant than the responsibility of bearing a child, which is leading down a dangerous path, in my opinion. The fact that it feels good doesn't present an excuse for not abstaining, it always comes down to willpower. I don't even know why, sex isn't addictive (okay possibly, but it's not a drug at any rate). I can sympathize with a drug addict if he used that language to rationalize his predicament. If it's about sex though, I don't see how I could take him seriously.
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  #32    
Old August 24th, 2013, 07:21 PM
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I think the point Psycho Yuffie was trying to make is that why should we have to abstain from sex just because we MIGHT get pregnant? Of course, if someone is struggling financially they should not put themselves in a position to get pregnant, but, in general, why do people insist that we shouldn't have sex because of the consequences? I don't want children at the moment, and maybe not ever, but that's not really going to stop me from having sex. Obviously practicing safer sex will reduce the chance of getting pregnant, but even then...I believe that people have the right to have sex and the right to deal with those consequences as they see fit for their situation, no matter how the pregnancy happened to come about. Sex isn't just for reproduction in this day and age.
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  #33    
Old August 24th, 2013, 10:47 PM
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Just to bring up what Kosuke said, why do you think that willing sex means you absolutely must have babies if there is conception? It's their life, their body and their future for the rest of their lives will be completely changed forever if they have a child, I think women are clever enough and should be respected enough to decide what they want to do with THEIR life. There is no baby human yet, just a bunch of cells, it has never lived and is so still a part of the woman and she can decide what to do with it.

You're pushing all the responsibilities onto a woman. Are you going to want to have sex in the future? Probably. Will you want a child? Maybe, it would depend on the circumstances. So why does it automatically become the WOMANS problem and fault if impregnation occurs! Sex is natural, it is going to happen. Should women never be allowed to have sex because they might have kids they don't want? As Psycho Yuffie said, there is an idea that men can have sex all they want and get idolised for it but don't have to accept the consequences of it, apart from child support payments. Meanwhile females are seen as at fault, sinners and ****s if they choose to engage in sexual behaviour, which I fully encourage them to do, safely, same with men. There can be no double standards, either nobody is allowed to have heterosexual intercourse for fear of impregnation or everyone is allowed to do as they please and have what I THINK IS A RIGHT to terminate unwanted pregnancies. We obviously disagree on this concept of accepting responsibility for your actions but I see it as a right to have sex, without wanting kids, and it's not enforcable by law in my country to have a baby from imregnation, which I see as an excellent thing. Also, to say that people having consensual sex with 99.7% protection is "undisciplined" is preposterous. They are being extremely disciplined and clearly do not want a child, if a sperm slips in they should most definitely not have to live with something that is completely avoidable and up to them to decide. My opinion is their body, their life, their choice.

Either way, abortion has little difference on men, I will ask of I can make a poll thread purely asking women for their opinions. It affects them so much more and is really their choice. Anymore of my opinion will be moot.
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  #34    
Old August 25th, 2013, 01:32 AM
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I am against the morals of it, it's a human life we are talking about... it is like killing another human being except it is legal because they don't look human enough yet to be classified as one. If a person cannot take care of the baby... adoption. I am also against having people give sex changes to children before they are born so they get the gender they want, I do not think we can play GOD like that it just isn't right and the thing is large parties/groups of people do not need to worry about that because they are a faceless mass of people not just one person so it makes it okay for things like this to happen.

P.S. I am 100% okay with people owning guns, Automatic Rifles to Handguns (logic huh)
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  #35    
Old August 25th, 2013, 02:41 AM
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If a person cannot take care of the baby... adoption.
What if they don't want to be pregnant and give birth? It's not like waiting 9 months and then it's all over, being pregnant and giving birth can be extremely hard and the biggest injustice in life is that men will never have to face that. I stand fast in my opinion that men and women alike should be allowed to have sex without wanting a child to be born, because we have ways to prevent that. If those ways fail for any reason, we have abortion as another way.

Arguing that an unborn human being should be "saved" against its parents' wishes while saying that owning weapons with which you can hurt or kill a human being who is already alive is okay, that sounds really strange to me.

EDIT: what is the point of D&D threads? :p To convince others and reach some sort of consensus or to just debate for a while for the heck of it and to see what opinions others have? Because I can agree to disagree, haha.
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  #36    
Old August 25th, 2013, 03:55 AM
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The way I see it, if you're pregnant and it's because of your own doings, be it a mistake or otherwise, you owe it to the child to give birth to them or you're wasting a whole human life - that child could never have hopes, dreams, love, or any form of life, just because one or two people made a mistake. I'm aware the experience is traumatic for the woman and it will encompass the pains of giving birth, and perhaps I'm being naive here, but I don't believe that any amount of temporary pain or discomfort over the 9 months is a justified reason to terminate a potential life. I'm not saying they should have to look after the child though, especially if they never wanted it in the first place or it'll never be a loving bond between them, but 9 months is ample time to find an adoptive carer.

The only time I would disregard this situation is in the case of rape. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant as a result then I don't believe she should be made to go through with the pregnancy. She had no choice in what happened and, although it's still awful to end the unborn baby's chance at having a life, if carrying and birthing the child ruins her life from the trauma of the rape then she should be allowed to abort it. In a situation where having a child would stop a woman achieving in school or similar then I think the right thing to do is to still give birth to the child as the woman had a choice, the baby didn't, and her life can still be lived afterwards, but in the case of rape or any other situation in which the woman had no choice about it (being drunk does not count) then I believe it should be the woman's choice.
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  #37    
Old August 25th, 2013, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexOzzyCake View Post
(being drunk does not count)
I wouldn't be surprised if more drunk women are raped than sober women?

What about being drunk whilst having sex, and not noticing the man has removed the condom?

---

The problem with saying "abortion shouldn't be allowed" is the diversity of reasons for abortion. Pregnancy can bring about disease, both physical and mental, as well as financially burden a woman - especially if she survives off her own income, which she could potentially lose if pregnant.

Women shouldn't be punished just because they made a choice to have sex. I think Yuffie summed up the general male attitude with this:

Quote:
It's okay for men to enjoy sex, but not women. It's not anyone's fault because society teaches everyone this.
Men shun responsibility of a pregnancy. They cannot fathom the pain and emotional burden of carrying a child you don't want or can't support. The father of the child isn't liable, and will not be affected by a pregnancy of a one-night stand. Hell, even getting money after a baby is born is difficult.

Abortion should always be legal. People suggest a limit, but I think that would just add to the moral difficulties. Maybe a solution is being suggested sterilisation (to either the man or woman) to avoid further accidents, but again that is a whole other can of worms.
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  #38    
Old August 25th, 2013, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if more drunk women are raped than sober women?

What about being drunk whilst having sex, and not noticing the man has removed the condom?
The first scenario is still rape so she would be entitled to an abortion still - when I said "being drunk doesn't count as a reason" I meant if they're drunk at a party and end up in a consenting one night stand because of it haha. As for the man removing his condom without her knowing, that should be a case where the woman would be allowed to abort the child but it'd be one hell of a difficult scenario to prove. In an ideal world (ignoring that this wouldn't happen in the first place in an ideal world) that would be a situation in which the woman would be allowed to abort, yes. It all just comes down to her having had a choice and having agreed to have sex whilst knowing the risk of getting pregnant.

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Women shouldn't be punished just because they made a choice to have sex. I think Yuffie summed up the general male attitude with this:
Is a natural 'punishment' that countless women choose to go through really worth ending a human's life? To me it's akin to stabbing your own son to death or choosing to go through pregnancy, which is not a situation that should ever result in the child being stabbed to death. (I know that's quite a drastic example, I was only trying to hint that child's stage of development doesn't matter and stabbing came to mind... I'm a sick person. 8D) If a man was able to go through pregnancy then I would say the exact same about them, but they can't - that's not a man's fault. It's a lucky break as regards the issue, but it's not saying that men have the right to enjoy sex whilst women don't. They should of course be there for the woman and child as much as they possibly can be.
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  #39    
Old August 25th, 2013, 08:16 AM
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I think, personally, that abortion should definitely be a choice... but the RIGHT choice. Like, you should think about all of the other options and their pro's and con's, as well as think "Gee, do I have the resources and DRIVE to take care of this child?" If the answer is no, then you shouldn't have a child at all, and whether you want to have an abortion or put the child up for adoption is up to you. So all-in-all I just think you should think about things before jumping straight to the abortion choice.

And this is probably going to open up an even bigger can of worms but.. I think that if the father is present and willing to put in the effort to raise a child.. you should tell him your plans to have an abortion. I don't care if it's the woman's body and her right.. he also contributed and if he isn't some scumbag who would up and leave when you tell him you're pregnant, (or he already has) then he should have a right to know.. although in the end even if he is opposed to it you could still have an abortion, but I think he should know rather than be kept in the dark.
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  #40    
Old August 26th, 2013, 06:24 PM
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I think there's been a paradigm shift in how a pregnant baby is perceived. I'd imagine back in the day people were more prepared to weather the burden, but now we're more quick to end it. People are more self-centered and individualistic nowadays, we don't talk about owning up to having "drive" and motivating yourself, but to take the negative emotion from the burden as a given and a constant.
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  #41    
Old August 26th, 2013, 11:19 PM
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I think there's been a paradigm shift in how a pregnant baby is perceived. I'd imagine back in the day people were more prepared to weather the burden, but now we're more quick to end it. People are more self-centered and individualistic nowadays, we don't talk about owning up to having "drive" and motivating yourself, but to take the negative emotion from the burden as a given and a constant.
I beg to differ. The imbalance is in the fact that, in the past, it was a womans' sole job to give birth to a child. Men didn't want their women doing anything else. They now have options.

It's definitely not a shift in personality making women today 'self-centered'. It is a shift in freedom.
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  #42    
Old August 27th, 2013, 03:24 AM
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That's just another way of saying the same thing, right? These women aren't making use of their newfound freedom for the sake of benefiting the collective, are they? I suppose what I said wasn't the most politically correct sounding statement because we'd all envision ourselves to be selfless altruists but the fact of the matter is that there is more focus on the woman as an individual, and so whatever sentiments there were for the fetus as a life has been pushed away for a woman's options. Women were once, in a sense, expected to make that kind of self-sacrifice and now that expectation is being overturned, so it's definitely a cultural shift, too.

Quote:
And this is probably going to open up an even bigger can of worms but.. I think that if the father is present and willing to put in the effort to raise a child.. you should tell him your plans to have an abortion. I don't care if it's the woman's body and her right.. he also contributed and if he isn't some scumbag who would up and leave when you tell him you're pregnant, (or he already has) then he should have a right to know.. although in the end even if he is opposed to it you could still have an abortion, but I think he should know rather than be kept in the dark.
In principle and in the perfect world I'd imagine the decision to have an abortion to be between both parties, but those that go through with it are hardly a family anyways so there's no reason to expect that kind of decision-making to happen. The rights of a woman's body probably win over in this kind of conundrum, when it comes down to the yes or no.

I don't think there's a right to sex. You have the right to liberty, but to call it a "right to have sex" is really trivializing human rights talk.
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  #43    
Old August 27th, 2013, 10:15 AM
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Also, everybody has the right to sex. Nobody's right to sex is taken away until the police knock at your door and get you for sodomy
This here is actually wrong. You do NOT have the right to sex. In fact, it is actually a privilege. If you had the right to sex then rape would be legal. Your right to sex only goes as far as with your self or in the sense of masturbation. The privilege of sex comes when the other partner agree to undergo with sexual actions so it is not solely up to your nor is sex given to you because you want it. The other party needs to agree otherwise it becomes rape which is illegal.

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  #44    
Old August 27th, 2013, 10:33 AM
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I meant if they're drunk at a party and end up in a consenting one night stand because of it haha.
Except a drunk person can't give consent.

And, yes, I know the argument can keep going back step after step. "But you chose to drink, therefore you have to accept the responsibility." I would just say then, where does that stop? At what point do we say "You made choices, but you don't have to live with all the consequences because we have the means of ameliorating them and we don't think you should have to suffer needlessly."

Let's go with the driving scenario. Driving can be dangerous. We know this, we do what we can to make sure people are safe when driving (forcing people to have licenses, making driving while intoxicated illegal, etc.) but we don't force people to suffer the consequences of everything that happens when they drive. If I'm making the conscious decision to drive, knowing full well that there is potential for harm, and some other driver crashes into me, we don't say "Well, you chose to drive so you have to live with the consequences."

I'm all for people being responsible. I just don't think it's right to blame someone for all the outcomes of their actions, particularly if they show they're being responsible for their actions early on after something happens. Going back to my driving scenario, if I drive at night and I hit a car, a car that wouldn't have been hit had I not driven, even though there was a pothole I couldn't see and the car came around a blind curve and I immediately called 911, should I really be responsible for all that happens?

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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
That's just another way of saying the same thing, right? These women aren't making use of their newfound freedom for the sake of benefiting the collective, are they?
Maybe they are. Maybe they work in some non-profit or they babysit their neighbor's children, or they're the only person in their office who can speak Chinese and without them the office would fold up and a bunch of breadwinners would be out of bread. I mean, there are a lot of ways women can benefit the collective without having children.

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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I suppose what I said wasn't the most politically correct sounding statement because we'd all envision ourselves to be selfless altruists but the fact of the matter is that there is more focus on the woman as an individual, and so whatever sentiments there were for the fetus as a life has been pushed away for a woman's options. Women were once, in a sense, expected to make that kind of self-sacrifice and now that expectation is being overturned, so it's definitely a cultural shift, too.
And... you think that's bad or what?

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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
In principle and in the perfect world I'd imagine the decision to have an abortion to be between both parties, but those that go through with it are hardly a family anyways so there's no reason to expect that kind of decision-making to happen. The rights of a woman's body probably win over in this kind of conundrum, when it comes down to the yes or no.

I don't think there's a right to sex. You have the right to liberty, but to call it a "right to have sex" is really trivializing human rights talk.
Don't forget that some abortions are going to take place for a woman who is married, and for some who are married with children. In those cases you can assume that there is a family and more communication about the decision.
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  #45    
Old August 27th, 2013, 11:13 AM
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I think the point Psycho Yuffie was trying to make is that why should we have to abstain from sex just because we MIGHT get pregnant? Of course, if someone is struggling financially they should not put themselves in a position to get pregnant, but, in general, why do people insist that we shouldn't have sex because of the consequences? I don't want children at the moment, and maybe not ever, but that's not really going to stop me from having sex. Obviously practicing safer sex will reduce the chance of getting pregnant, but even then...I believe that people have the right to have sex and the right to deal with those consequences as they see fit for their situation, no matter how the pregnancy happened to come about. Sex isn't just for reproduction in this day and age.
Ok, so... the consequences should defer someone from having sex if they do not want to get pregnant. Essentially it is like gambling, You must accept the consequences for every action that you take. for example, you mentioned financially struggling, that person could then go, gamble what money they have left and they MIGHT get lucky and not lose or even gain, but there is also the risk of losing more and coming out even worse. Now for the pregnancy, Yes... I'll say it, Sex is fun, that's why people do it. But so is a lot of other things, but if you don't have the resources to cope with the consequences that follow with your choice, then you shouldn't be doing it. If you like video games but cannot afford it, then you don't buy it, If you like to travel but cannot afford it, then you don't go, Simply because you cannot afford the risk of what might happen if you go.... So why should sex be any different? If you cannot afford to take responsibility for your actions, then you shouldn't be doing it. if you are really that addicted to sex, then find alternatives where the person won't get pregnant such as oral, anal or what ever kind of method you see fit that won't result in pregnancy. If you want to have vaginal sex, I notice you said you may never want them, then here is an easy fix, simply have the tubes tide or whatever so the risk of pregnancy is essentially 0 and then you can save yourself the cost of raising a child/if you choose abortion, the cost of that and then do whatever you want with out the risk of consequences which may screw you over.

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  #46    
Old August 27th, 2013, 04:52 PM
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Maybe they are. Maybe they work in some non-profit or they babysit their neighbor's children, or they're the only person in their office who can speak Chinese and without them the office would fold up and a bunch of breadwinners would be out of bread. I mean, there are a lot of ways women can benefit the collective without having children.

And... you think that's bad or what?
My point is that there is a focus on the individual and /her/ goals. I don't think anybody's brought up the point in such a way yet. It's not about benefiting the collective/benefiting the individual as if these goals are mutually exclusive, cuz that's how you're bringing it up right now and I believe that neither of us actually believes that is true. It's about the cultural shift and the perspective, a way of thinking, if you will. What you're saying is true, but I wasn't really getting at.

And I can see why you'd be concerned. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in order for you to give me the benefit of the doubt, how's that
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Old August 27th, 2013, 05:30 PM
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It's been awhile since I've commented on Abortion. I've looked into the other side of the issue from mine. It certainly gives one a whole different look at the whole thing than one had before. Right now though I'm still firmly pro-life. And to those comparing Roe V. Wade with Brown V. Board, I see it more like Pleassy V. Fergurson, it needs to be look at again.
Sometimes though I wonder if pro-choice people try to ever look at our side though...I'm certain there's some but often times I get the sense it's only us Pro-life folks who are made to look at the other side.

Also something which I'm bothered by is the stereotype that only men are pro-choice. There's women out there against abortion too you know.

Anyways in my look at the pro-choice side and reading some arguements I've figured that abortion will continue even if made illegal...so I think that abortions should be limited to the two week time line and none after unless for health issues (which I am open to seeing as both mother and child may die.)
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Old August 27th, 2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post
It's been awhile since I've commented on Abortion. I've looked into the other side of the issue from mine. It certainly gives one a whole different look at the whole thing than one had before. Right now though I'm still firmly pro-life. And to those comparing Roe V. Wade with Brown V. Board, I see it more like Pleassy V. Fergurson, it needs to be look at again.
Sometimes though I wonder if pro-choice people try to ever look at our side though...I'm certain there's some but often times I get the sense it's only us Pro-life folks who are made to look at the other side.

Also something which I'm bothered by is the stereotype that only men are pro-choice. There's women out there against abortion too you know.

Anyways in my look at the pro-choice side and reading some arguements I've figured that abortion will continue even if made illegal...so I think that abortions should be limited to the two week time line and none after unless for health issues (which I am open to seeing as both mother and child may die.)
I especially like this point you brought up: Also something which I'm bothered by is the stereotype that only men are pro-choice. There's women out there against abortion too you know.

Keep the perspective moving, folks. Let's bring everything to the table and shine light upon as many assumptions as possible. This thread looks decently non-partisan so far.
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Old August 27th, 2013, 06:09 PM
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Ultimately it is the woman's choice, but it needs to be an educated decision. I also think the father should have some say, because it is partly his. (provided the father is still around)
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Old September 1st, 2013, 04:31 PM
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(skimmed over the thread and saw some good points but didn't read all of it)

Most people I see who are against abortion and have an issue with the fetus being a human life. However, according to the government, you are not a living being until you take your first breath outside of the womb. Also, at the point where most people decide to have an abortion, it is still at a point where it doesn't have nerve cells. Therefore it doesn't feel the pain of being aborted and having its life taken. There's a great quore by George Carlin that I find suits this argument well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geroge Carlin
Why, why, why, why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to **** in the first place, huh? Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're ****ed.
...and that quote basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.
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