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Fifth Generation Are Pokémon slaves to humans? Team Plasma thinks so. Travel the Unova region and prove them wrong in Black & White, and then return two years later in Black2 & White2.


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  #1    
Old September 9th, 2013, 07:34 PM
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So I finally got around to beating Black 2. Really deep story, brilliant sequel. Like Black/White, Reshiram/Zekrom and now Kyurem willingly choose to join you. But what do they think about being combined? Zekrom begged to be saved and seperated, but that could've been because Ghetsis forced the fusion after already controlling Kyurem against its will. So is it Ghetsis they hate, or fusion altogether? Reshiram and Zekrom used to be a single Pokemon and Kyurem was born from the separation, but the DNA Splicers aren't exactly natural. They just combine Kyurem and just one of the legendary dragons. It doesn't look like restoration, more like a mutation, their combined body parts don't look even or natural. What even happens to their mind? Do they combine entities or keep both minds sharing one body? Most importantly, what do Kyurem and Reshiram/Zekrom feel about it? Are they all right with it? Is it wrong to fuse?
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  #2    
Old September 9th, 2013, 08:22 PM
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I haven't played gen 5 games but I think that the experience would be terrifying. To combine Pokemon in such an unnatural way would be completely immoral.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 08:28 PM
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If you look at Kyurem's Pokédex entry in BW2, it mentions that it awaits the missing parts of its body to be filled. And since you're not the trainer who wants to freeze Unova, I don't feel as bad about it.
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  #4    
Old September 9th, 2013, 09:06 PM
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The origin of Kyurem and the DNA Splicers is never fully explained in B2W2. It's known that they're from around the same age, which means the fusion only happens because Kyurem is compatible with Reshiram/Zekrom, as one of the parts of the original dragon. It seems to me that the Splicers are something the ancient people of Unova created to try to rebuild the dragon, but as we all know, they're imperfect since they can only fuse two of the dragons at the same time, and one of them must be Kyurem.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 09:31 PM
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I actually thought of exact words like the thread title says, 'The Morality of Fusing Kyurem'. I was disgusted by that cutscene... I know Pokemon are some data only, but that fusing cutscene just didn't feel that right, that is why I don't fuse Kyurem to Reshiram/Zekrom.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:34 PM
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Yeah I also do not like this sort of idea of Fusing Kyurem
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Old September 9th, 2013, 11:16 PM
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I always thought that Kyurem was the one missing parts of its body (just look at his wings!), and needed only Zekrom or Reshiram to be made whole again. Is that not what you do when you fuse them together?
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  #8    
Old September 9th, 2013, 11:17 PM
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I believe it's not metamorphosis but more like... symbiosis.
Both fusion "materials" feel more complete and closer to their original form (while I would love to see the original dragon by fusing all 3 together, I'm aware that writers would have to create the original dragon and deepen the backstory about it).
I think both participants in fusion share the body in symbiotic way.

As for morality... morality solely depends on the origin of DNA Splicers. If and only if it's Ghetis' work then it would be very immoral to both Pokemon but if it's something that always existed it can't be that bad =)
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  #9    
Old September 9th, 2013, 11:18 PM
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Oh BTW I don't have a problem with morality in the game as I like to play the villain when possible.
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  #10    
Old September 9th, 2013, 11:24 PM
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Yeah it is pretty inhumane but remember these people are an evil group of bad guys, isn't it inhumane or immoral to create a clone of a pokemon i.e. Mewtwo and didnt Team Plasma do something to Genesect.

Didn't Team Plasma purposely summon Dialga/Palkia/Giratina

Didn't Team Aqua purposely summon Kyogre

Didn't Team Magma purposely summon Groudon

Didn't Team Aqua and Magma indivertedly summon Rayquaza or anger him by doing that.

They are all very inhumane groups and they deserve more than what the player gives them.
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  #11    
Old September 10th, 2013, 12:02 AM
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Oh BTW I don't have a problem with morality in the game as I like to play the villain when possible.
That's not something you would find in Pokemon games :D
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  #12    
Old September 10th, 2013, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chuckleslucifer View Post
Yeah it is pretty inhumane but remember these people are an evil group of bad guys, isn't it inhumane or immoral to create a clone of a pokemon i.e. Mewtwo and didnt Team Plasma do something to Genesect.

Didn't Team Plasma purposely summon Dialga/Palkia/Giratina

Didn't Team Aqua purposely summon Kyogre

Didn't Team Magma purposely summon Groudon

Didn't Team Aqua and Magma indivertedly summon Rayquaza or anger him by doing that.

They are all very inhumane groups and they deserve more than what the player gives them.
It was obviously inhumane when Ghetsis forced it, as he was already controlling them against their will. But now that both Kyurem and Zekrom willingly join you, what do they think when you fuse them?
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Unbeatable Flame would make a pokemon trainer run outta breath in the anime:
Unbeatable Flame, Flamethrower.
Unbeatable Flame, Sky Uppercut.
Unbeatable Flame, this.
Unbeatable Flame, that.
Un*pant*beatable---Flame, hooollaaa
Un-un-un-un--bea-bee....*Pokemon trainer fainted*
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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:29 AM
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Considering that both dragons know you have the DNA splicers, and they probably know you intend to use it, they still join you. When you train White/Black Kyurem, they become happy.

My belief is that Kyurem is an empty shell like the game implies it to be, and only feels complete when fused with Reshiram or Zekrom. Both Reshiram and Zekrom both become stronger after fusion, so they probably appreciate it.

After everything is said and done, if they don't want to be fused, they really don't have to. They are legendary Pokemon, and don't need to do what they are told unlike common Pokemon. They simply choose to battle by your side, and can very likely leave if they don't feel that you are doing a great job as a trainer.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:30 AM
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Actually i am still waiting for a game in which i can fuse the 3 of them into one Beast.
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  #15    
Old September 10th, 2013, 06:28 AM
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As politely as I can put this, I find questioning morality in a fictional world to be futile. What if barometer of morality in Pokemon world is vastly different from our world's?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 08:41 AM
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When I first went into this game, I was pretty psyched to use the fusing thing. But when I saw the cutscene and I realized that I had no idea what happened to Reshiram/Zekrom I was pretty upset. I don't think I've ever felt so upset over a Pokémon scene before haha. So, I don't fuse them in my game. I mean, what happens to them? Can Reshiram/Zekrom have their own consciousness or do they just become empty shells? It all just makes me feel really uncomfortable.
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Old September 12th, 2013, 08:38 PM
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Well, certain Pokémon fuse together to evolve e.g. Magnemite (atl eats in the descriptions) so is this different?

I did find it disheartening when it happened in game though and I was rather annoyed with Ghetsis.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 12:42 AM
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That's not something you would find in Pokemon games :D
My team in B2W2 is based on Ghetsis team.
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  #19    
Old September 14th, 2013, 06:28 AM
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This legendary ice Pokémon waits for a hero to fill in the missing parts of its body with truth or ideals.
That is Kyurem's Pokedex description, so I'm guessing that Kyurem is very much willing to combine into one with Zekrom/Reshiram. After all, they were one from the start, isn't that the myth behind the origin of how Kyurem came into being? Kyurem seems to be nothing more than an empty shell; Reshiram and Zekrom are based on the yin-yang concept (i.e. seemingly opposing forces that are actually co-dependent), and Kyurem represents wuji, the initial void that was filled by the presence of yin-yang. Wouldn't that mean that in fact, Kyurem is actually suffering from its emptiness, and performing the fusion using the DNA Splicers, even if it is a man made item, means fulfilling Kyurem's ultimate destiny?

So no, I definitely think that simply the act of fusing Kyurem with Zekrom/Reshiram is not wrong. I don't think any of dragons rejects the fusion, but rather that they simply will not do it willingly if it is for evil purposes, such as Ghetsis's goal.
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Old September 14th, 2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIAU View Post
That is Kyurem's Pokedex description, so I'm guessing that Kyurem is very much willing to combine into one with Zekrom/Reshiram. After all, they were one from the start, isn't that the myth behind the origin of how Kyurem came into being? Kyurem seems to be nothing more than an empty shell; Reshiram and Zekrom are based on the yin-yang concept (i.e. seemingly opposing forces that are actually co-dependent), and Kyurem represents wuji, the initial void that was filled by the presence of yin-yang. Wouldn't that mean that in fact, Kyurem is actually suffering from its emptiness, and performing the fusion using the DNA Splicers, even if it is a man made item, means fulfilling Kyurem's ultimate destiny?

So no, I definitely think that simply the act of fusing Kyurem with Zekrom/Reshiram is not wrong. I don't think any of dragons rejects the fusion, but rather that they simply will not do it willingly if it is for evil purposes, such as Ghetsis's goal.
This is pretty much exactly an unabridged saying of what I said near the top of this page, minus the whole concept of what Resiram and Zekrom are. So thank you.
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  #21    
Old September 14th, 2013, 08:56 AM
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That makes sense, but why only one dragon? In order to be complete, wouldn't Kyurem need both? Combining with just one still seems like they're missing something, almost as if all three should be one again. Also, even if Kyurem wants to be fused, the result is still uneven. It doesn't look natural, as if random body parts were just crammed together. Even if Kyurem wants it, what about Reshiram/Zekrom? Are they consenting? Do they still have individual minds?
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Yay my username is accurate now! Also holy crap I just realized Unbeatable was misspelled for the longest time! Fixed. xp

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Quote:
Originally Posted by drarixio View Post
Unbeatable Flame would make a pokemon trainer run outta breath in the anime:
Unbeatable Flame, Flamethrower.
Unbeatable Flame, Sky Uppercut.
Unbeatable Flame, this.
Unbeatable Flame, that.
Un*pant*beatable---Flame, hooollaaa
Un-un-un-un--bea-bee....*Pokemon trainer fainted*
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  #22    
Old September 14th, 2013, 10:01 AM
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Because you can only get Zekrom or Reshiram in their respective games, otherwise we wouldn't have two different game versions.

I would also agree that to recreate the original dragon would mean fusing all three together, but would Zekrom and Reshiram agree to be reunited? They appeared out of the incompatibility between truth and ideals, that's the reason the original dragon split into two in the first place. Kyurem is only a shell of the original dragon, a shell that wants to be restored. Now, even though a complete restoration won't happen too soon, it's undeniable that Kyurem still wishes to be completed, so going back to the original question about the morality of the fusion, I still believe it's the right thing to do, even if the fusion is not complete. As for Zekrom/Reshiram, I think it would consent to fuse with Kyurem, but I don't think it would remain as an individual sharing the same body with Kyurem, but rather would come together into one individual (Black Kyurem or White Kyurem), much like Magnetone evolves into Magnezone.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 02:21 PM
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The fact that N's Zekrom/Reshiram (Dragon tries to refuse being spliced with Ghetsis's Kyurem, yet when you--the always morally-upright protagonist--tries to fuse the dragons, neither dragon objects... I think this indicates that Zek/Reshi struggled because it wanted to stay loyal to the trainer it chose and not be used for evil. Not because it minded being reunited. Because the three dragons were originally all parts of a same being and it was conflict that tore it apart, I think being (partially) reunited doesn't bother it. Now that Zek/Reshi and Kyurem are on the side of the same trainer, they no longer have a reason to be in conflict.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that Gamefreak created an unquestionable, morally-upright protagonist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckleslucifer View Post
Yeah it is pretty inhumane but remember these people are an evil group of bad guys, isn't it inhumane or immoral to create a clone of a pokemon i.e. Mewtwo and didnt Team Plasma do something to Genesect.

Didn't Team Plasma purposely summon Dialga/Palkia/Giratina

Didn't Team Aqua purposely summon Kyogre

Didn't Team Magma purposely summon Groudon

Didn't Team Aqua and Magma indivertedly summon Rayquaza or anger him by doing that.

They are all very inhumane groups and they deserve more than what the player gives them.
On the topic of morality, what is it that makes it okay for the protagonist to keep a godlike pokemon in captivity? Using them for sport may not be evil compared to using them for world domination, but given that the entire process of summoning these legendaries is questionable, it feels like legendaries are treated like spoils of war. Is there an answer besides the protagonist always being right?
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 12:15 PM
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Ok ,edit.
That was surely true. I haven't looked at it that way before and indeed, it seems bad to fuse them. They are forced to be together, and as you can see, Kyurem does look like Reshiram and Zekrom together. I think that Kyurem as the dragon gym leader said, was the shell. What I means is that actually Zekrom and Reshiram were inside of "Kyurem". Kyurem being gray is because of that. So actually Zekrom and Reshiram's special look means that their are condensated ideals and reasoning. Kyurem's body looks far more "solid" than the former two. So what Ghetsis did was to fuse zekrom/reshiram to their shell, actually creating a mutation, like instead of filling a box with candy, you melt the candy and stick it on the box and call it "packaging".
Horrible and moraly wrong indeed. Nice point out, TC.
Please tell me what you think about it. Thanks!

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edit2: Not to mention, Kyurem's crappy pokedex entry. "Its body is frozen. It breaths ice." Alright, what you get of that is "Lazy Gamefreak freaking lazy." But what if... It's just that simple? Kyurem, is actually a pokemon? Or is it a hollow shell? Maybe it is nothing more than a frozen empty body that breaths ice of loneliness. Nothing more. I even find giving Kyurem life immoral.
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  #25    
Old September 26th, 2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
The fact that N's Zekrom/Reshiram (Dragon tries to refuse being spliced with Ghetsis's Kyurem, yet when you--the always morally-upright protagonist--tries to fuse the dragons, neither dragon objects... I think this indicates that Zek/Reshi struggled because it wanted to stay loyal to the trainer it chose and not be used for evil. Not because it minded being reunited. Because the three dragons were originally all parts of a same being and it was conflict that tore it apart, I think being (partially) reunited doesn't bother it. Now that Zek/Reshi and Kyurem are on the side of the same trainer, they no longer have a reason to be in conflict.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that Gamefreak created an unquestionable, morally-upright protagonist.



On the topic of morality, what is it that makes it okay for the protagonist to keep a godlike pokemon in captivity? Using them for sport may not be evil compared to using them for world domination, but given that the entire process of summoning these legendaries is questionable, it feels like legendaries are treated like spoils of war. Is there an answer besides the protagonist always being right?
You are right (and the protagonist is wrong). Taking possesion of a pokemon itself is quite questionable (I understand what N says. I even thought about releasing them all if there were pokemon in the real world). And more if the pokemon is a legendary being that controls something. That actually makes you nothing better than Team Plasma (ok, a little better).
Last but not least, fusing. What-in-the-world?! Fusing pokemon? Really?! I mean... Getting two minds and wills into one? How does that work. Ok, in DBZ and lots of stories/anime/series there are fusing, but fusing something like Zekrom and Reshiram to Kyurem, who all are not really happy together? And not naturally, artificially? Oh well...
Note that "you" is just a random third person.

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