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  #51    
Old November 12th, 2013 (08:23 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
I also think that parents have a pretty large part in what kind of standards get passed down to their kids. Blame the media all you want, I do it, but they aren't the only culprit. But parenthood is so much of a sacred cow that we can't often interfere with what parents do with their kids.
It has always bothered me, this point you make. It was because of it being a sacred cow that my mother was able to abuse me within the law in ways that have only recently been recognized in the US as abuse.

Quote originally posted by Rezilia:
Read up on Chivalry and get back to me.

Also -

Gender: Female

As for everything else, I already explained it in my posts. Chivalry isn't benevolent sexism. It's a common courtesy system for EVERYONE - not just towards females.
Technically, it is, depending on how you look at it. If you look at it as "helping females" or even "helping males" then it does become sexism. Sexism isn't about being negative, it's actually about defining a boundary between them when none exists. I like chivalry, I think it's quaint and even sweet. While it would be nice to discard all arbitrary barriers between the genders, many times sexism is actually a courting method, as I detailed previously.

The problem is that we cannot get into everyone's head, we don't know what other people are thinking. Often sexism can be harmless, more often than not it's actually part of a courting method. The important thing is what you are thinking when you do it, thinking one gender as inferior makes the sexism bad, not thinking of them as inferior makes it inconsequential. But again, we don't know what everyone else is thinking.

That leads back to my "blowing it out of proportion" point. Dialog is the greatest tool we have as a species, we need to use it more, if in doubt, ask them why they are doing it. Holding a door may just be because they see your hands are full, or perhaps they just became the local "doorman" for a crowd of people and decided "what's one more moment to hold this door for a beautiful person?" There are some local guys who make comments about me showing my legs, is it sexism? Yes, but it's perfectly harmless because even in cold weather I wear skirts, my legs get hot and sweaty in pants when I am walking a lot. They mean no harm, they expect nothing of me, and they make no passes at me, it's just their whit.
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  #52    
Old November 13th, 2013 (04:06 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Magic Christmas Lights:
I can understand this. It is a bit patronizing, isn't it? Women are perfectly capable of opening their own doors; it takes less than five seconds and it's no problem. I get offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that. It's like, gee thanks for doing something that I could've done myself in two seconds. It doesn't really help the woman in a meaningful way.

It's called benevolent sexism, and it's still sexism even if it seems positive.
I don't think you should get offended when someone is trying to be nice, even if it is perhaps misplaced, and especially if it's a societal construct that they're expected to engage in. You can speak out against it in general, but lashing out when someone does something that they see as expected or even good-natured is just misplaced anger. They weren't actively trying to be malicious, it's just what they were taught. If you perceive such rules as unjust, by all means speak out about them and inform people of your concerns, but getting upset when someone does something like this is probably not going to help you convince them of your viewpoint.

Also, while you may or may not have a point about pulling chairs out and such (that's something that's so simple that helping with it is more of a show than anything), I hold doors open for anyone who gets close, not just women. I also sometimes pay for friends' meals if I'm making a bit extra money and they're making a bit less.
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  #53    
Old November 13th, 2013 (11:42 PM).
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Quote originally posted by twocows:
I don't think you should get offended when someone is trying to be nice, even if it is perhaps misplaced, and especially if it's a societal construct that they're expected to engage in. You can speak out against it in general, but lashing out when someone does something that they see as expected or even good-natured is just misplaced anger. They weren't actively trying to be malicious, it's just what they were taught. If you perceive such rules as unjust, by all means speak out about them and inform people of your concerns, but getting upset when someone does something like this is probably not going to help you convince them of your viewpoint.

Also, while you may or may not have a point about pulling chairs out and such (that's something that's so simple that helping with it is more of a show than anything), I hold doors open for anyone who gets close, not just women. I also sometimes pay for friends' meals if I'm making a bit extra money and they're making a bit less.
Personally, I love it when someone, male or female, makes a show of attempting to impress me in such a way. I say "male or female" because I have had butch lesbians do the chair thing for me in fancy restaurants. Makes me feel more important, and that's generally the reason it's done now, to show that you are someone important to them. One lesbian I know in this city is overly protective of me, made her girlfriend jealous many times, she treats me like her younger sister. I think it's sweet, and certainly not sexist in any way, though technically it is a form of sexism as she only does such things for "pretty ladies," it's how she says it.

I think a lot of people complaining just need to consider how much class they have missed out on, and how much attention people give them just for being attractive to them. I guess it's a self esteem issue, but that's just a guess. I get so many random gifts from people, things they just thought I would like, I love it.
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  #54    
Old November 16th, 2013 (09:07 PM).
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I don't have time to read the entire thread, forgive me.

But to answer exactly what the title says, nobody acknowledges "sexism" against men because it's nowhere near as a big systemic issue around the world as it is against women. Simply put, sexism as a concept is a double-edged sword which effects both genders. Sexist notions are intertwined with each other - an example being that men are "sex pigs" simply because "women won't put out", and other sorts of nonsense.

I have better things to do with my time than "debate male sexism" right now. Just try and think of how gender roles effect each other and how they act together to try and get an understanding of the bigger picture.
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  #55    
Old November 18th, 2013 (05:54 AM).
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KittenKoder you make some really good points. The general consensus in this thread so far seems to be that sexism does indeed go both ways.

I would like to link a news incident that occurred on an Australian airline back in 2002.

Basically the crust of the story is that a 33 year old fireman was sitting next to two unaccompanied minors. Shortly before take off the flight attendant asked the fireman he had to move because he can't sit next to unaccompanied minors, citing policy due to the safety priority of the children.

The attendant then asked a female passenger to swap seats with him:

Quote:
Mr McGirr said the attendant then asked a fellow female passenger, "Can you please sit in this seat because he is not allowed to sit next to minors."
"After that I got really embarrassed because she didn't even explain. I just got up and shook my head a little, trying to get some dignity out of the situation," he said.
"And that was it. I pretty much sat through the flight getting angrier."
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html

It's unfortunate that the airline treated him as a potential paedophile despite his professional status as a firefighter. Absolutely awful situation to be in.
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  #56    
Old November 19th, 2013 (05:30 PM).
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Gender inequality on both sides of the street is something I've never understood. I open the door for everyone and I expect others to do the same, it's weird and rude when someone opens the door for me but not a man. To me I just look at people as people as opposed to woman/man and I don't even really think about it. If most people thought that way I don't think that gender oppression would really be an issue.
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  #57    
Old November 20th, 2013 (09:21 AM).
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Not sure if there's ever a point where it's considered "late" to jump in, but just my general thoughts on the issue...

I think the biggest problem with "combating" sexism or fighting for rights for a certain gender is carrying that notion that the genders are inherently different. And I don't mean physiologically, men and women are biologically different and that is a given; it's the mentality that assumes men and women are of two separate "parties" that need to be treated equally. The difference in genders is physical only but we certainly do not treat it that way.

We should strive for fair treatment for people as a whole. All of us deal with prejudices and skewed perspectives and we need to champion the cause of general societal decency as opposed to the rights of one imposed "category" of people.

IMO, feminism is as silly as affirmative action and minority rights groups because we need to stop viewing the subjects of mistreatment as needing these rights to match some arbitrary standard we apply to everyone "else". Don't you see the implication that there is some idea of a "normal" subset of people that we need to make everyone else equal to? That just relegates whoever is represented by the group as someone different and not "normal".

The best way to deal with sexism in my honest opinion is to stop talking about it. Stop thinking that women/men need to have rights fought for and instead fight for fair treatment of everyone. Break the concept of the physical difference somehow making us different entities in society. We are all part of one body of people and one only: let's start acting like it.
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  #58    
Old November 20th, 2013 (08:13 PM).
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Quote originally posted by LoudSilence:
Not sure if there's ever a point where it's considered "late" to jump in, but just my general thoughts on the issue...

I think the biggest problem with "combating" sexism or fighting for rights for a certain gender is carrying that notion that the genders are inherently different. And I don't mean physiologically, men and women are biologically different and that is a given; it's the mentality that assumes men and women are of two separate "parties" that need to be treated equally. The difference in genders is physical only but we certainly do not treat it that way.

We should strive for fair treatment for people as a whole. All of us deal with prejudices and skewed perspectives and we need to champion the cause of general societal decency as opposed to the rights of one imposed "category" of people.

IMO, feminism is as silly as affirmative action and minority rights groups because we need to stop viewing the subjects of mistreatment as needing these rights to match some arbitrary standard we apply to everyone "else". Don't you see the implication that there is some idea of a "normal" subset of people that we need to make everyone else equal to? That just relegates whoever is represented by the group as someone different and not "normal".

The best way to deal with sexism in my honest opinion is to stop talking about it. Stop thinking that women/men need to have rights fought for and instead fight for fair treatment of everyone. Break the concept of the physical difference somehow making us different entities in society. We are all part of one body of people and one only: let's start acting like it.
Actually, the only real differences are physiologically, there is only one biological difference that is not cosmetic or physiological and that isn't as different as we once though. The real differences are which chemicals the cells process and produce. The rest of your post is pretty spot on.
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  #59    
Old November 21st, 2013 (03:09 AM).
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this is my favourite thread to ever exist

the only two areas where men face issues which could even be considered as sexist are parental custody lawsuits & female-on-male or man-on-man rape cases

and in both cases, the perceived sexism is a result of the society that men have built for themselves, a double edged sword
this 'sexism' is simply the patriarchy working in a way that does not suit men

for centuries, possibly even millennia, men have deemed that women are only fit for the kitchen and raising kids
and now, in modern times, this is working against them in parental custody lawsuits - more or less the only area in law which is not heavily favoured towards men
because women have for so long been typecast as the only being fit for raising kids, naturally there is going to be a bias towards them, the loving mother who gave up her life to raise the father's child

and for rape
well
blame the patriarchy again
female-on-male rape cases are treated as a joke because, thanks to age old thinking that man > women, a woman cannot be superior to a man
she cannot be physically stronger
as emotionally empty as a male rapist
it cannot be possible for a woman to take advantage of a man the same way that men have since the dawn of civilisation

tl;dr - sexism against men is not an issue
the patriarchy is
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  #60    
Old November 21st, 2013 (03:16 AM).
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I have to wonder though whether the parental custody suits would be considered the patriarchy working against the men. I would consider that as working in their favour, but I guess it's all down to perspective.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (03:18 AM).
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surprisingly andy many mature men between the ages of 18 to 80 desire and love children
many of them happen to have souls as well
though that's not something you could ever comprehend and i still love you regardless
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Old November 21st, 2013 (07:15 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
this is my favourite thread to ever exist

the only two areas where men face issues which could even be considered as sexist are parental custody lawsuits & female-on-male or man-on-man rape cases

and in both cases, the perceived sexism is a result of the society that men have built for themselves, a double edged sword
this 'sexism' is simply the patriarchy working in a way that does not suit men

for centuries, possibly even millennia, men have deemed that women are only fit for the kitchen and raising kids
and now, in modern times, this is working against them in parental custody lawsuits - more or less the only area in law which is not heavily favoured towards men
because women have for so long been typecast as the only being fit for raising kids, naturally there is going to be a bias towards them, the loving mother who gave up her life to raise the father's child

and for rape
well
blame the patriarchy again
female-on-male rape cases are treated as a joke because, thanks to age old thinking that man > women, a woman cannot be superior to a man
she cannot be physically stronger
as emotionally empty as a male rapist
it cannot be possible for a woman to take advantage of a man the same way that men have since the dawn of civilisation

tl;dr - sexism against men is not an issue
the patriarchy is
>women are mistreated
>"It's man's fault!"
>men are mistreated
>"It's man's fault!"


Sorry, that's a load of feminist drivel.

So because some people who happened to be men imposed discriminatory views and roles on the genders in the past, all forms of sexism towards their gender is somehow not an issue? Since when did being a man make me accountable for the actions of other men to the point where injustices against me are somehow my own fault? It's this mentality of lumping us up the same way people lump up women as only homemakers that is wrong.

Whoever built this society is irrelevant. The reality of the situation is that now, this "patriarchy" or whatever you want to call it has brought up the general populace with skewed perceptions of BOTH genders. This isn't a matter of talking about who has it worse, women probably do but who cares? Why is it a contest to see who deserves attention more?

Sexism in all its forms needs to stop, and the moment we stop fighting for equality with relation to the other gender rather than true fairness for all is when things will start changing. This "check your privilege" mentality is what's keeping men and women (and differing races and backgrounds for that matter) perpetually at odds with each other.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:05 AM).
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oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists

and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:10 AM).
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^ that's the very thing though, that we should think that we should pay more attention to one than the other. it's not a zero sum game, my win is not your loss. but as long as people have that attitude, sexual inequality will continue to be seen as one side against the other.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:15 AM).
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you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:20 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists

and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'
He is not incorrect, in politics it's called "pointing the finger." It is a method of avoiding the responsibility of your own mistakes by blaming others for them. Not all cultures are male dominant, and women are not weak, on the contrary, most of us can take most of the men in a fair fight with little struggle. What happened in so many cultures that males dominate? Religion. Yeah, sounds a bit like pointing the finger as well, only, for religion to have any power everyone, male and female, has to give it that power. The fear of "going to ...." wherever the tormented go is what allowed men the power in these religions. Women gave up their power for that false promise of "glory after death."

So who is to blame? Well yeah, men came up with the notions, but women bought into those same notions to allow men to take the power from them, it was a willing participation. Even today a lot of women, take Sarah Palin for a great example, will give the men in their lives all the control, willingly. Her husband is a pansy, and any woman with a backbone could easily stand up to him, but she doesn't, and she does have a backbone, just not enough smarts to use it. Of course he's not blameless, but who wouldn't take advantage of dominating another person in any contract?

My mother was the same, thankfully my father was not. My mother believed, as the religion told her, that men should always be in charge. My father thought females who wanted to should take the reigns and be in charge so men like him, who didn't want the responsibility of being in charge, didn't have to.

But when you look at cultures where men and women are equal and you see one thing missing, they don't have a lot of religiosity. So if you are going to blame something, at least blame that which is truly responsible for it, fear.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:20 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened
That's exactly the point of view that I'm talking about, that we see more in our divisions than what we have in common. Since when have we ever talked about solidarity and unity instead of who's being threatened and who's to blame? It upsets me that we're more concerned with what we have to lose personally instead of looking at what we have to gain as a society. It's as if we're limited to looking at the problem in the negative. I don't know who's perpetuating this culture, but it is not how you create a harmonious society.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:36 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists
My problem is playing the blame game, Harlequin. Women need their rights to be fought for, believe me I realise that, but not because men are the root of all these issues or that women are the only ones deserving of rights. Human beings need to be fair to human beings. By putting men as the standard for rights, you've already accepted the notion of superiority/inferiority in your argument. Do you get what I'm saying?

I'm looking for something more inclusive because this mentality is, like it or not, the crux of feminism and is ultimately a poor mindset for the cause.

Quote:
and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'
But that's what I was getting at...why are we comparing the value of problems here? How does that help resolve an issue? Shouldn't people focus on being better people TO people, and not just women?

Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened
Maybe some men who want to perpetuate the status quo feel threatened, but I myself am not "scared" of rocking the boat. Things need to be shaken up, trust me I'm with you there. I just think feminism is a result of tunnel vision and can't accept the belief that "it's all man's fault and so your problems aren't really problems".

It's counterproductive, creates more of a schism between men and women, and quite frankly, is condescending. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be, but that's what the end result is.

We need a massive paradigm shift in how human beings see one another. Women's rights wouldn't be an issue if we could attain that.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (10:49 AM).
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Yunno, this is why I miss communism. At least people had ideals worth fighting for. And the name of the game was solidarity, not finger-pointing.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (05:37 PM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Yunno, this is why I miss communism. At least people had ideals worth fighting for. And the name of the game was solidarity, not finger-pointing.
It's too bad any system other than democracy is considered taboo. People cringe at the mention of it like it's a bad word when all it is is an idea.

If nothing else, communism brought on the idea of society truly being one unit, something we could definitely learn from considering the widespread fragmentation we deal with both on a national and global level. It's sad that we define the value of a human's life based on which piece of land they're from, something the majority of us have no control over anyway.

Sorry pretty big tangent from the topic of this thread haha. But in a way, the ideal of a unified globe would rectify the problem of sexism pretty easily.
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Old November 21st, 2013 (07:23 PM).
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Oh, lol I'm not even getting on that level. I was thinking how communism was like "here you go take all the rights you've been denied for millennia. Have fun!" As well the attitude of solidarity - except against the bourgeoisie, who were the enemy. But men aren't the enemy in feminism, are they?
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Old November 22nd, 2013 (08:00 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Oh, lol I'm not even getting on that level. I was thinking how communism was like "here you go take all the rights you've been denied for millennia. Have fun!" As well the attitude of solidarity - except against the bourgeoisie, who were the enemy.
Oh oops. Well I'm with you on that one!

Quote:
But men aren't the enemy in feminism, are they?
I never used to think so, can't speak to "true" feminists really, but the "bandwagoners" (teeny boppers on Tumblr who argue vaguely about rights without any real plan and say "check your privilege" all the time without even knowing what they're saying) certainly seem to come off that way.

I get the initial intentions behind its inception and don't think the concept was to ever try to demonise men, but whatever happened between then and now has resulted in an ideologically convoluted movement that is trying to wrest "power" from "Man" as if we're locked in some eternal struggle with the other gender being some sort of collective oppressor.

Any feminists reading that know better, please excuse my ignorance (not sarcastic) and explain the true essence of the movement and why "equality for all" is not a better cause to strive for. I honestly would like to know.
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  #73    
Old November 23rd, 2013 (09:09 AM). Edited November 23rd, 2013 by zakisrage.
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zakisrage zakisrage is offline
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Quote originally posted by LurifLUX:
Woaw, woaw, woaw, WOAW.
You talk about sexism and then you bash an entire country? Talk about double standards here. I can confirm something and that is your view of Sweden is so scewed and wrong I can't even begin to correct it. You've got to be trolling or something.
Is this the "raging racism is okay, but smidgeons of sexism isn't" thread?
I don't think he was trying to bash Sweden's people as a whole - just the people in charge (and believe me, people in charge almost never represent the common people). A lot of people feel that way about the misogyny in Saudi Arabia, but that doesn't mean they hate Saudis as a people. (I myself am a very strong critic of Turkey's government and politics, but I don't hate the people and I'm friends with a number of Turks.)

I do hate the idea that men cannot go near children because "they'll molest them", which is why people are suspect of men who work with children. People were hesitant to hire me as a babysitter because I was a guy. But I proved myself worthy. (I only stopped doing it because of one little brat who I couldn't stop their bad behaviour.)
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  #74    
Old November 23rd, 2013 (05:35 PM).
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twocows twocows is offline
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Quote originally posted by Harlequin:
the only two areas where men face issues which could even be considered as sexist are parental custody lawsuits & female-on-male or man-on-man rape cases
Correction: the only two areas you are aware of that men face that could be considered sexist are those two topics. Making such a broad, absolute statement as you just made is overreaching. Even if you were an expert on the topic of men's issues and studied and discussed it for years, there could well be issues some men face that would be outside of your knowledge. And discounting the validity of every other possible issue other than the ones you listed without so much as mentioning why you discount them does nothing to advance the discussion and merely unfairly trivializes men's issues.

Quote:
and in both cases, the perceived sexism is a result of the society that men have built for themselves, a double edged sword
this 'sexism' is simply the patriarchy working in a way that does not suit men
Are you somehow suggesting that every single male in existence is part of some vast conspiracy to keep men in power at the expense of women? I guess I didn't get that memo. I certainly didn't "build" anything that is designed to treat people unfairly. Or are you saying that attitudes that have been around for thousands of years, since hunter-gatherer societies, attitudes that I myself argue against, are something that we are responsible for? That anything that happens as a result is our just rewards since we happened to be born male? Because that's even more absurd. And if you are saying we're responsible for perpetuating them, even if that is the case, it doesn't excuse the injustice being done.

Quote:
for centuries, possibly even millennia, men have deemed that women are only fit for the kitchen and raising kids
I'm not deeming that. Why are you holding me and others who take issue with the unfair treatment of men responsible for the attitudes of "society" any more than you hold yourself responsible? We're (or at least the people in the men's rights movement that I agree with) just trying to get fair treatment.

Quote:
and now, in modern times, this is working against them in parental custody lawsuits - more or less the only area in law which is not heavily favoured towards men
because women have for so long been typecast as the only being fit for raising kids, naturally there is going to be a bias towards them, the loving mother who gave up her life to raise the father's child
I'm not sure what point you're making. That we "had it coming" because of attitudes that were around before any of us were even alive? I'm sorry, but that's outrageous.

Quote:
and for rape
well
blame the patriarchy again
I think I'll blame the rapists and not the vast male conspiracy to take and maintain power that doesn't exist.

Quote:
female-on-male rape cases are treated as a joke because, thanks to age old thinking that man > women, a woman cannot be superior to a man
she cannot be physically stronger
as emotionally empty as a male rapist
it cannot be possible for a woman to take advantage of a man the same way that men have since the dawn of civilisation
The idea you are describing is not "the patriarchy," it is "masculinity." There is an attitude inherent in society that men must be and act "manly." This is a destructive attitude and should be argued against. There is also the (absolutely ridiculous) idea that men cannot withhold consent because "men always enjoy sex." This is downright stupid and should be labeled as such.

These attitudes perpetuate because we act in such a way that they continue to exist and be passed on to our children, not because there is a contract between all men to keep them going to "keep the women down." We fight them by treating people fairly and fighting injustice that results from treating people unfairly. This includes unfairness against men, against women, against blacks, whites, hispanics, gays, straights; anyone who is being treated unfairly based on some aspect of them that really has no bearing on the matter at hand.

And even if you believe that men, or whoever, are perpetuating these attitudes and that it's their own fault, that does not justify unfair treatment. A victim is a victim, a crime is a crime, and bad things are bad. We cannot stand by and watch with disinterest when someone experiences injustice, even if that person may have played a minor role in causing it. We would not excuse the con-artist for conning a greedy person: regardless of the victim's role in the crime, the perpetrator is still doing something immoral.

Quote:
tl;dr - sexism against men is not an issue
Your argument as to why sexism is not an issue boils down to "only a few issues are valid" with no reason why all of the rest are invalid, and "men had the rest coming." There are plenty of legitimate problems men face in today's society (for instance, unfair bias in the legal system, including but not limited to parental custody issues). If there are some issues that men's rights advocates argue about that you think are non-issues, I can address these (men's rights advocacy is very disorganized and many people have conflicting beliefs, so it's quite possible that some issues you might be thinking of are things I also consider non-issues). As for "men had it coming," however you feel about the idea of "blaming the victim," I don't think it "excuses the perpetrator."
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Old November 23rd, 2013 (11:12 PM).
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The idea of patriarchy isn't that men are in on some conspiracy, that men are actively discriminating against women or other men who don't fit the mold (though that does happen), but that the system as a whole is biased and usually benefits men (with the noted exceptions where it benefits women). It's not saying that you created this system, just that you are inside it and most likely benefiting from it if you're a man. That's an uncomfortable place to be in. You haven't chosen to discriminate against anyone, but you still get an unfair advantage most of the time. The accusation, I think, if there is an accusation, is that you are accepting these circumstances. I don't know if it's right or wrong to expect everyone to actively fight against the unfairness, but I think a denial of the unfairness comes off as complicity to those who see a biased system.
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