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  #76    
Old November 18th, 2013 (01:38 PM).
Limerent Limerent is offline
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Quote originally posted by hughes:
Gahh, this is what my friends tell me, but flirting's just weird to me. I don't see him enough to get these chances and it's not like I hang out with him. I'm hoping we have a class together next semester, but I'm not sure yet (we've had like four classes together because he's in my major, but a year below me). I just know that he didn't sign up for one of the ones I'm taking, which is of course the class with the group project. And I blew the ball last year when I had a class with him with a project and couldn't bring myself to ask him to be in my group. :/
Don't flirt then, just ask casually 'Hey ............, would you like to hang out sometime?' Thing is, don't allow yourself into the traditional gender roles of a relationship, being a shy, awkward girl makes it more difficult, especially when guys are expected to be the strong, confident ones who are essentially managing everything like you're an object to be transported around. Males are expected to do the ask out, arrange the first date, entertain the girl with their charm etc. It's a huge amount of pressure which many simply can't handle, and everything falls apart. It's also not very healthy if you want to be mature adults with an even status quo in the relationship.

So I'd suggest you just casually ask him face to face whether he'd like to go out with you sometime. My advice is you organise this first 'date' yourself, don't leave it to the guy on the first time, quite simply he will fumble the planning. 2nd time you can ask him to make arrangements so you both feel you're a part of this Go somewhere fun, not confronting and awkward like two people sitting face to face at a romantic restaurant would be. Movies, the zoo, ice skating, these are all good choices. You could even just go to each others houses and play Pokemon, watch a DVD, eat lunch etc.

Also, since you seem rather shy, think "what do I lose from asking this guy in a casual fashion to hang out?" The answer is nothing! If he says no for whatever reason just smile and say "Ok then, some other time". You haven't made a fool of yourself, this is all very carefree and normal activity you're partaking in Basically you just want to do something as friends together, if the guy likes you things will escalate naturally.
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  #77    
Old November 18th, 2013 (01:50 PM).
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Quote originally posted by JNathan:
Hmm, asexual people can be in love or dating someone. They still have emotions, right? So I don't see why an asexual couldn't be in love?
Emotions, yes, sexual attractions, no. Very few asexual people pair up, and then it's only with other asexual people, due to the fact that there will not be any sex involved. Even then, it's not "dating," as it is generally used, but really just best friends. Sometimes they will call it dating, makes the sexual people less apprehensive for some reason, but there is no mating, no breeding, no petting involved, if there was, they'd not be asexual.

Many people talk of being "abstinent," but an asexual cannot be abstinent, there is nothing to abstain from. There is literally no sexual desires or attractions at all.
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  #78    
Old November 18th, 2013 (02:02 PM).
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Quote originally posted by KittenKoder:
Emotions, yes, sexual attractions, no. Very few asexual people pair up, and then it's only with other asexual people, due to the fact that there will not be any sex involved. Even then, it's not "dating," as it is generally used, but really just best friends. Sometimes they will call it dating, makes the sexual people less apprehensive for some reason, but there is no mating, no breeding, no petting involved, if there was, they'd not be asexual.

Many people talk of being "abstinent," but an asexual cannot be abstinent, there is nothing to abstain from. There is literally no sexual desires or attractions at all.
Yes, asexuals that do not engage in any type of sex abstain from sex. Abstinence by its very definition is the willful avoidance of sexual activity. A person does not have to have sexual attraction in order to engage in sexual activity. Just because you choose to abstain from sex does not mean you are incapable of having sex. Put another way, if people only had sex with the people they were attracted to there would be a whole lot less porn out there.
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  #79    
Old November 18th, 2013 (02:24 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Jay_37040:
Yes, asexuals that do not engage in any type of sex abstain from sex. Abstinence by its very definition is the willful avoidance of sexual activity. A person does not have to have sexual attraction in order to engage in sexual activity. Just because you choose to abstain from sex does not mean you are incapable of having sex. Put another way, if people only had sex with the people they were attracted to there would be a whole lot less porn out there.
To abstain there must be a desire to do it, there is nothing willful about it, we have absolutely no attraction to anything in a sexual manner, nor do we gain any pleasure from sexual activity of any sort. Nothing to abstain from, nothing to willfully resist or avoid. The label of "asexual" for species that have a form of sexual reproduction is used precisely for those of us lacking this drive at all. There is no choice involved, and that's where you are misunderstanding. I cannot think of an analogy to use to describe it, it's a complete absence of any desire or drive for anything sexual. To me, sex, sexuality, sexual activity, attractions, "love," affections of another, have as much importance to me as what the telemarketer is wearing when they call me.

Sure, how other people think and feel fascinates me, but only in a scientific and psychological way.
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  #80    
Old November 18th, 2013 (03:22 PM).
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Quote originally posted by O07_eleven:
Don't flirt then, just ask casually 'Hey ............, would you like to hang out sometime?' Thing is, don't allow yourself into the traditional gender roles of a relationship, being a shy, awkward girl makes it more difficult, especially when guys are expected to be the strong, confident ones who are essentially managing everything like you're an object to be transported around. Males are expected to do the ask out, arrange the first date, entertain the girl with their charm etc. It's a huge amount of pressure which many simply can't handle, and everything falls apart. It's also not very healthy if you want to be mature adults with an even status quo in the relationship.

So I'd suggest you just casually ask him face to face whether he'd like to go out with you sometime. My advice is you organise this first 'date' yourself, don't leave it to the guy on the first time, quite simply he will fumble the planning. 2nd time you can ask him to make arrangements so you both feel you're a part of this Go somewhere fun, not confronting and awkward like two people sitting face to face at a romantic restaurant would be. Movies, the zoo, ice skating, these are all good choices. You could even just go to each others houses and play Pokemon, watch a DVD, eat lunch etc.

Also, since you seem rather shy, think "what do I lose from asking this guy in a casual fashion to hang out?" The answer is nothing! If he says no for whatever reason just smile and say "Ok then, some other time". You haven't made a fool of yourself, this is all very carefree and normal activity you're partaking in Basically you just want to do something as friends together, if the guy likes you things will escalate naturally.
Yeah, given what I've gathered from our conversations, I know I'm going to have to make the first move. It's just getting to a point where I feel comfortable and confident enough to do that. I'm just a person that naturally assumes that if he doesn't try to initiate conversation or whatever, it means he's not interested. But I know that's not true, solely because I would act the same way. It's just very frustrating.
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  #81    
Old November 18th, 2013 (04:31 PM).
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Quote originally posted by KittenKoder:
To abstain there must be a desire to do it, there is nothing willful about it, we have absolutely no attraction to anything in a sexual manner, nor do we gain any pleasure from sexual activity of any sort. Nothing to abstain from, nothing to willfully resist or avoid. The label of "asexual" for species that have a form of sexual reproduction is used precisely for those of us lacking this drive at all. There is no choice involved, and that's where you are misunderstanding. I cannot think of an analogy to use to describe it, it's a complete absence of any desire or drive for anything sexual. To me, sex, sexuality, sexual activity, attractions, "love," affections of another, have as much importance to me as what the telemarketer is wearing when they call me.
KittenKoder, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that not engaging in sexual activity due to your sexual orientation is not a choice, but that's not exactly true, is it? We all make conscious decisions on our actions, what we choose to do or choose not to do. You are making a choice by not engaging in any sexual act, whether you see that or not. So yes, you do abstain from sex because you don't have sex, which is the very definition of abstinence that I quoted. That definition doesn't have anything to do with feelings, only actions.

I am a gay man. that means by nature I am sexually attracted to, and have sex with, other males. But my sexual orientation does not govern the choices that I make. I can, if I so choose, have sex with a woman. I just have no desire to. A point of fact, I have in the past been intimate with a woman, even though I had no attraction for her or derived any pleasure from her. I made a choice during a time in my life that I rejected the fact that I was gay. Attraction had nothing to do with my choice. My sexual orientation had nothing to do with my choice. It was a choice that I made that I take responsibility for.

I feel, based on the conversations I've had with other asexuals, that I should point out that some asexuals do in fact have sex. They felt no attraction for their partner, nor derived any pleasure from the act, but they do it anyway for various personal reasons. Some just to try it out; some because they are pressured by family to continue the family line; and others... well... because they're paid to do it.

I'm glad that you're happy in your life, but please do the common courtesy of refraining from speaking for others. Your experiences, your thoughts and your feelings are yours alone. They are unique and cannot be applied to anyone else. Not even other asexuals.

Quote originally posted by KittenKoder:
Sure, how other people think and feel fascinates me, but only in a scientific and psychological way.
Sadly, I fear that you may garner little understanding because you yourself, self-admittedly, are incapable of forming those types of bonds. You can study the mechanics of it all you want, but it won't lead to understanding. True understanding cannot be gained unless it is personally experienced.
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  #82    
Old November 18th, 2013 (05:02 PM).
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Kanzler Kanzler is offline
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Actually, Jay, I'd argue that this:

Quote:
KittenKoder, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that not engaging in sexual activity due to your sexual orientation is not a choice, but that's not exactly true, is it? We all make conscious decisions on our actions, what we choose to do or choose not to do. You are making a choice by not engaging in any sexual act, whether you see that or not. So yes, you do abstain from sex because you don't have sex, which is the very definition of abstinence that I quoted. That definition doesn't have anything to do with feelings, only actions.
... is the assumption. How can you be sure that all our actions are conscious decisions? Personally, I've spent the recent part of my life grappling with that question. In my personal observation, not deciding to do something is not the same as deciding not to do something. Not everything in this world can be reduced to a choice, that to me is oversimplifying. I actually made a blog post on this very subject today, coincidentally.

Even though my sexuality is nowhere close to KittenKoder's, I can empathize with where she's coming from. Where she cannot think of an analogy to describe it, I'll try. Think of atheism, the hundreds of millions of people that live in godless countries. They live without god, in the absence of god, yet they haven't made the conscious decision not to live with god. Compare this with atheists who consciously express their disbelief in god. With this analogy I am only trying to demonstrate that 'not' doing something can be the result of a non-choice. We can extend the analogy to the inverse and propose that we can be 'doing' something without choosing to do so. That too I see intuitively - I call it good habits Choice is a very tricky concept, but one thing I can argue strongly about it is that it is not black and white.

Personally, I can attribute my lack of sexual activity to choice and non-choice factors. The fact that there haven't been many opportunities I think we can agree is a non-choice factor. The fact that I haven't pursued opportunities, I'd say, can be attribute to both choice and non-choice factors. Sometimes I ask myself "should I"? and answer no - that would be a conscious choice, but what about all those other times? Perhaps if you replaced me with another person in some of my social scenarios it would have led to a sexual encounter - but I didn't act did I? Sexuality, at least for me, is not continually inhibited and only presents itself when I turn the inhibitions off. I think for me I have to be turned on before the inhibitions come off

Okay that probably just destroyed all the seriousness in my post, but my point is that our actions are as much governed by non-choices as they are by conscious actions. Sexual behaviours are reaction to sexual stimuli. If the same stimuli isn't perceived as sexual, then why would there be sexual behaviour - or in other words, a reason to make a choice in the first place?

Also, this thread got serious.
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  #83    
Old November 18th, 2013 (05:02 PM).
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Quote originally posted by JNathan:
I've been single since I was born and I'm not really happy with this. Sometimes, I feel rather lonely and hope I had a special someone but I'm too clumsy around girls
This is exactly how I feel.
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  #84    
Old November 18th, 2013 (06:31 PM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Actually, Jay, I'd argue that this... is the assumption. How can you be sure that all our actions are conscious decisions? Personally, I've spent the recent part of my life grappling with that question. In my personal observation, not deciding to do something is not the same as deciding not to do something. Not everything in this world can be reduced to a choice, that to me is oversimplifying. I actually made a blog post on this very subject today, coincidentally.
You see, I've come to regard failing to choose a choice in of itself. It's a choice of inaction vrs. action. I've been alive on this planet long enough to see the results of people choosing not to act and then failing to take responsibility for the consequences. It leaves me shaking my head.

Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Even though my sexuality is nowhere close to KittenKoder's, I can empathize with where she's coming from. Where she cannot think of an analogy to describe it, I'll try. Think of atheism, the hundreds of millions of people that live in godless countries. They live without god, in the absence of god, yet they haven't made the conscious decision not to live with god.
You see, herein lies the problem with your analogy. They have made that decision. All cultures on this planet, in one form or another, have had to deal with spirituality and its impact on society. It may not involve a God per se, but some sort of a belief in a higher power has existed throughout all of human history and in every civilization--including those that are atheistic. KittenKoder is cognizant of her sexuality. For her the decision is an informed one. She chooses not to engage in sex of any kind because it is unappealing to her, but that is a choice that she makes. She can easily make a choice to have sex despite being asexual. Again, it's a choice of inaction vrs. action. It's not a question of can't, it's a question of won't.

Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
With this analogy I am only trying to demonstrate that 'not' doing something can be the result of a non-choice. We can extend the analogy to the inverse and propose that we can be 'doing' something without choosing to do so. That too I see intuitively - I call it good habits Choice is a very tricky concept, but one thing I can argue strongly about it is that it is not black and white.
And yet, in my experience, inaction is as much a choice as action. The consequences of which are very real.

Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Personally, I can attribute my lack of sexual activity to choice and non-choice factors. The fact that there haven't been many opportunities I think we can agree is a non-choice factor.
The decisions we make are wholly based on what we know. Ignorance inhibits our ability to make choices. So those opportunities you speak of could very well have arisen, but you may not have recognized them for what they were. Had you recognized them, you very well could have had the opportunity to make a conscious choice to either take advantage of the opportunity or to ignore it.
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  #85    
Old November 18th, 2013 (07:19 PM).
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Why aren't you open to the possibility that she just simply doesn't respond to things in a sexual manner? You can be aware that you don't respond to things, but it doesn't make it a choice.

Being straight, I don't wake up every day and think about my choice not to have sex with men or whatever. Men, as sexual objects, aren't really a conscious part of my psyche. If I'm pushed to say no, then I'll say no - but I think calling it a choice really misses the idea that it isn't something I think about. We're (KittenKoder and I) describing life as we live it. If pushed to do so, then yes, I suppose I will make a conscious choice every chance I get. But that's not the world as I see it, that would be someone else pushing me to see the world as they see it and interpreting my action as something that makes sense to them. I call something disinterest, you call it ignorance. You say "had I recognized them" but the fact of the matter is I didn't and I guess I still don't. And I think it's important to recognize that, because that is a dimension of sexuality and romance as well.

I think you're imposing the way you view the world on other people's experiences. I don't think KittenKoder's opinion, no, experience is mistaken at all - I find it to be quite genuine. I don't think we should discount somebody else's perspective just because it's different and doesn't fit our way of thinking.
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  #86    
Old November 18th, 2013 (09:49 PM).
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Jesus, talk about walls of text.

For whomever asked for help getting to go on a date with a guy, flirting might be awkward, but you won't get anywhere without being clos(er) and social. D:
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  #87    
Old November 18th, 2013 (09:53 PM).
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I'm single and I probably will be forever. I mean, I have crushes on people but they never like me back...
It seems I'm destined to be alone, but I don't lament it. I think I function better by myself.
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  #88    
Old November 18th, 2013 (10:30 PM).
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idk man girls are weird

boys are weird too

But yeah, I don't feel like all this stuff is for me. Just too much drama if I go either way :p
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Old November 19th, 2013 (12:23 AM).
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Old November 19th, 2013 (04:13 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Why aren't you open to the possibility that she just simply doesn't respond to things in a sexual manner? You can be aware that you don't respond to things, but it doesn't make it a choice.
Being aware of your feelings and making a choice to do something, or not do something, are two different things. Of course she doesn't respond to things in a sexual manner. She's asexual. I get that. I know that. My only point is that it is still a choice on her part not to take a particular action.

You and I probably approach the concept of choice in a different way. For me inaction and action are the same where choice is concerned. That's just been my experience.
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Old November 19th, 2013 (04:29 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Jay_37040:
KittenKoder, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that not engaging in sexual activity due to your sexual orientation is not a choice, but that's not exactly true, is it? We all make conscious decisions on our actions, what we choose to do or choose not to do. You are making a choice by not engaging in any sexual act, whether you see that or not. So yes, you do abstain from sex because you don't have sex, which is the very definition of abstinence that I quoted. That definition doesn't have anything to do with feelings, only actions.

I am a gay man. that means by nature I am sexually attracted to, and have sex with, other males. But my sexual orientation does not govern the choices that I make. I can, if I so choose, have sex with a woman. I just have no desire to. A point of fact, I have in the past been intimate with a woman, even though I had no attraction for her or derived any pleasure from her. I made a choice during a time in my life that I rejected the fact that I was gay. Attraction had nothing to do with my choice. My sexual orientation had nothing to do with my choice. It was a choice that I made that I take responsibility for.

I feel, based on the conversations I've had with other asexuals, that I should point out that some asexuals do in fact have sex. They felt no attraction for their partner, nor derived any pleasure from the act, but they do it anyway for various personal reasons. Some just to try it out; some because they are pressured by family to continue the family line; and others... well... because they're paid to do it.

I'm glad that you're happy in your life, but please do the common courtesy of refraining from speaking for others. Your experiences, your thoughts and your feelings are yours alone. They are unique and cannot be applied to anyone else. Not even other asexuals.



Sadly, I fear that you may garner little understanding because you yourself, self-admittedly, are incapable of forming those types of bonds. You can study the mechanics of it all you want, but it won't lead to understanding. True understanding cannot be gained unless it is personally experienced.
To offer a synapse of what you are saying here: You know nothing of genetics.

Asexual is not an orientation, first of all, and what an organism is attracted to is not a conscious choice at all, we have understood what drives this for a very long time. Someone who chooses to avoid sex is not asexual, it's that simple. Someone who chooses to be attracted to something they are not attracted to is lying to themselves as well, it's that simple. Your genetics govern a lot about what you are, the only thing your genetics do not govern is who you are.
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  #92    
Old November 19th, 2013 (04:33 AM).
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@Kitten

what he is saying is that you are still physically capable of the act, you just have no reason or motivation for doing so. There is nothing actually preventing you from doing so other than your own lack of interest.

It has nothing to do with orientation or genetics or anything. He is just simply saying that you don't engage in the act willingly, because you have no desire to, but that you still have the ability to do so.
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  #93    
Old November 19th, 2013 (04:35 AM). Edited November 19th, 2013 by KittenKoder.
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Quote originally posted by Jay_37040:
Being aware of your feelings and making a choice to do something, or not do something, are two different things. Of course she doesn't respond to things in a sexual manner. She's asexual. I get that. I know that. My only point is that it is still a choice on her part not to take a particular action.

You and I probably approach the concept of choice in a different way. For me inaction and action are the same where choice is concerned. That's just been my experience.
You are simply unable to accept the reality of the situation at this point. The irony being that you also demonstrated hypocrisy by telling one person not to dictate what another should be like then doing just that as well. Not all organisms have a sex drive, the vast majority of organisms in the world don't have a sex drive or sexual orientation, actually. Of course, the vast majority of organisms in the world do not have a gender system based on a dichotomy.

From a psychological stand point you are attempting to enforce stereotypical ideas onto other people, and thus remove the differences about them as a method of reconciling your own unique differences to avoid coming to terms with stereotypes other people have placed on you. It's not uncommon for people to do that, but it is less common today than it has ever been, because we are advancing as a species to avoid utilizing stereotypes as a means of judgment.

Quote originally posted by gimmepie:
@Kitten

what he is saying is that you are still physically capable of the act, you just have no reason or motivation for doing so. There is nothing actually preventing you from doing so other than your own lack of interest.

It has nothing to do with orientation or genetics or anything. He is just simply saying that you don't engage in the act willingly, because you have no desire to, but that you still have the ability to do so.
That sort of contradicts the notions involved. For there to be a choice there would have to be a drive one way or the other, the lack of a drive entirely means there is no conscious choice involved. It's not a "lack of interest," it's an absence of drive, a complete and total lack of any sexual desires, attractions, drives, or pleasures, none. Do you have a desire to jump off a cliff? If not, then how can it be a conscious choice not to jump off a cliff? A choice must have an opposition to it, if there is no opposition to the action, then it is not a choice.
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  #94    
Old November 19th, 2013 (04:43 AM).
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@Kitten - Drive and the ability to chose something are unrelated. I could easily walk of a cliff right now. There is nothing stopping me. I just don't want to, so I am using that as the basis of my choice. The situation with you is the same.

Either way, I'd rather just discuss this via VM or PM since I think this is probably getting too heated for a general conversation. Feel free to do either of those things
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Old November 19th, 2013 (04:49 AM).
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Quote originally posted by KittenKoder:
To offer a synapse of what you are saying here: You know nothing of genetics.

Asexual is not an orientation, first of all, and what an organism is attracted to is not a conscious choice at all, we have understood what drives this for a very long time. Someone who chooses to avoid sex is not asexual, it's that simple. Someone who chooses to be attracted to something they are not attracted to is lying to themselves as well, it's that simple. Your genetics govern a lot about what you are, the only thing your genetics do not govern is who you are.
You know, I have been fighting for the rights of the LGBT community for a very long time now. And one of the things I've had to fight against is the mistaken believe that who we are attracted to is a choice. It's not. What is a choice, however, is whether or not we act on that attraction... or lack of attraction. And I am happy to say that Asexuality is just one aspect of this diverse group of people that I've worked with, so I do know a bit of what I speak.

Asexuality can be considered the lack of a sexual orientation, or one of the four variations thereof, alongside heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, depending on how you look at it. Obviously you choose to look at it as and absence of sexual orientation. And that is fine. Unfortunately science is less clear on this. Some researchers who study asexuality assert that asexuality is a sexual orientation, while other researchers disagree. Until we get a definitive answer, I think we should always defer to the person in question, because only they know best how they feel.

But being asexual does not preclude the possibility of having sex. As I stated before many who are asexual have, and do have, sex, for many different personal reasons. Such as a desire to please romantic partners or a desire to have children, among the other reason that I stated earlier. Ultimately it is your choice whether to have sex or not, in spite of or because of your asexuality. And I think what ever is best for you, whatever makes you the most happy, the most content, is all I or anyone else could wish for.
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Old November 19th, 2013 (05:05 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Jay_37040:
You know, I have been fighting for the rights of the LGBT community for a very long time now. And one of the things I've had to fight against is the mistaken believe that who we are attracted to is a choice. It's not. What is a choice, however, is whether or not we act on that attraction... or lack of attraction. And I am happy to say that Asexuality is just one aspect of this diverse group of people that I've worked with, so I do know a bit of what I speak.

Asexuality can be considered the lack of a sexual orientation, or one of the four variations thereof, alongside heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, depending on how you look at it. Obviously you choose to look at it as and absence of sexual orientation. And that is fine. Unfortunately science is less clear on this. Some researchers who study asexuality assert that asexuality is a sexual orientation, while other researchers disagree. Until we get a definitive answer, I think we should always defer to the person in question, because only they know best how they feel.

But being asexual does not preclude the possibility of having sex. As I stated before many who are asexual have, and do have, sex, for many different personal reasons. Such as a desire to please romantic partners or a desire to have children, among the other reason that I stated earlier. Ultimately it is your choice whether to have sex or not, in spite of or because of your asexuality. And I think what ever is best for you, whatever makes you the most happy, the most content, is all I or anyone else could wish for.
Does a leaf choose to follow the path when blown by the wind?
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Old November 19th, 2013 (05:09 AM).
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Quote originally posted by KittenKoder:
Does a leaf choose to follow the path when blown by the wind?
What do the laws of gravity and physics have to do with human consciousness?
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Old November 19th, 2013 (05:09 AM).
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Is a leaf a conscious being with the ability to make choices?

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything else here.
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Old November 19th, 2013 (12:02 PM).
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Guys I like how you guys are having a good discussion, but lets keep it on the topic. If you guys want to discuss sexuality please use the thread intended for that located here.
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Old November 19th, 2013 (02:32 PM).
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Single. Whenever I get close to a boy and really have something with them, they mess me around/choose another girl.
I'm leaving school and heading off to college and stuff soon, though. Meeting different people will be amazing!
Although, I have to say that I don't really feel that I NEED to be in a relationship right now. Wanna focus on my studies and do well in school.
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