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Fifth Generation Are Pokémon slaves to humans? Team Plasma thinks so. Travel the Unova region and prove them wrong in Black & White, and then return two years later in Black2 & White2.

View Poll Results: Do you feel not enough people liked BW2 compared to the other main series games?
No, I think people liked them enough 10 23.26%
No, their (lack of) attention was justified 6 13.95%
Yes, I think people didn't like them enough 22 51.16%
Yes, and i'm part of that "under-appreciating" crowd 5 11.63%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1    
Old December 20th, 2013 (7:25 AM).
Swagroar Swagroar is offline
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Now, this might seem crazy, but as the title says, I just feel these games are by far the most under-appreciated main series games in the franchise. As I said in Mason's thread where he said he doesn't like this generation, I said that I thought these were the worst received main series games, either Black 2 and White 2 or Diamond and Pearl. I just feel like, although these games have overall been received well, just like all other main series games have, they've just gotten more flack than any of the others.

To put this in perspective for you, look on Wikipedia. These games didn't even sell a full 8 million copies. Only a little over half of what Black and White sold. More than Platinum, but still. And I remember reading on Bulbapedia that it sold over 4 million copies in Japan. So, over half of the game's copies were sold in Japan. Unless i'm calculating something wrong, that's pretty sad.

Why is it that these games had such a short attention span? Is it because of the hype that came when XY were first announced back in January? Is it because (quite a few people think) they were an even bigger joke difficulty-wise than the originals? Is it because people think Game Freak just wanted their money with them (which I can understand for a few things, most notably the Challenge Mode mechanics)?

One person on Marriland said that he considered (or that he's seen people say, I don't remember exactly) Black and White the biggest underdogs in gaming since all Sonic games after Sonic Next-Gen. Really? I thought people loved the original Black and White for its story and only having new Pokémon before beating the game, which admittedly some people don't like. I myself didn't for a while, it grew on me but i'd still much rather take the awesome Pokédex in BW2 and XY over BW any day. I do get that there are idiot genwunners who would bash Black and White for mainly its Pokémon, but that's a different story.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know that every share of Pokémon games are going to have their share of likes and dislikes, I know there were people who disliked XY for its lack of new Pokémon, annoying characters and little post-game. But personally, I don't know. I just feel like Black 2 and White 2 have gotten it the worst, and it's sad because they're still my favorites (well, it's darn close between them and XY), so I just really wish I could get why people don't seem to like it as much. Again, people have different reasons for their likes and dislikes. Is it just something i'm not seeing?

I don't want to come off as trying to defend this game or mindless ranting, so I hope you don't see it as that way! Either way, discuss.
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  #2    
Old December 20th, 2013 (8:08 AM).
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That is the problem with realesing multibple versions of the same game. People get tired of the formula and say, "I already boght that one."

BW2 Was the MOST ORIGINAL sequel game ever. It added 200 new pokemon the the region, a new Areas, ORIGINAL STORY not copy+pasted from the first.

But you don't know that untill after you buy it. Parent might have been more willing to buy "Gray" instead of "Black 2" because adults can't tell which games are just sister copies of each other.

BW and BW2 are my favorire in the series. They tackle the Morality of their Primary Concept - Monster collecting. They have a unique roster of band new Pokemon. The mechanics behind the game make battles run faster than HGSS.

I love all the new pokemon (and all the old ones) except a choice few.

The biggest fault of BW is the after-game witch is ALWAYS held Hostage for the Sequel. When they added after-game to BW2 it was too late, people didn't care enough to buy it.

Obviously, BW didn't sell as well because it didn't have Pikachu. LOL
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Old December 20th, 2013 (10:44 AM).
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I don't know why people didn't like B2W2 much, but they're my favorite main series games. They took everything that was great about Gen V and expanded on it, and also brought new things to the table. For once, completing the Pokedex brought more than just bragging rights, the medal system encouraged me to try new things, and the PWT is a great distraction.
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Old December 21st, 2013 (2:31 AM).
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Huh, and here I thought that it's the sequel that's the moneymaker, I guess I was wrong in this case. Which is a shame, because B2W2 were lovely.

I loved BW, they were the perfect games for a newbie like me, and the story was great, but the sequels added new great features, like the habitat list, Hidden Grottoes, the PWT, medals. And they had a brand new story-line, they were truly sequels, not remakes. That's why probably my favorite feature was the Memory Link.
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Old December 21st, 2013 (8:31 AM).
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I don't think Black 2 & White 2 are that bad, in fact many thought Black & White was kinda boring and "too linear". B2/W2 on the other hand isn't as linear as B/W is but I have to say B2/W2 are among my personal fave games in Pokemon because of all the great features they had available and all the addictive postgame content such as Join Avenue, PWT, Medals, Hidden Grottoes and the storyline was very different too.

Game Freak wanted to make sure they get the whole sequel concept right, and they sure did. While B/W lacked quite a lot, B2/W2 made up for that by expanding things and adding worthy postgame content. I'd still play them even after I get X and Y!
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Old December 21st, 2013 (3:00 PM).
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Black and white are bad but black 2 and white 2 has a good storyline and great new features such as PWT,Join avenue,Memory link,etc. I like the fact that they were sequels not remakes.
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  #7    
Old December 21st, 2013 (6:34 PM).
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Black 2 and White 2 were far better than B/W. I assumed BW2 was going to be the same, I'm guessing many thought the same too? Turns out it was worth the extra 15 dollars. I was very disappointed to hear about the Dream World though.
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Old December 21st, 2013 (8:22 PM).
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I've been meaning to reply to some of these comments formally, but most of them are the same so i'll just try to express my thoughts as well as I can.

Most of the people posting here seem to favor Black 2 and White 2 quite considerably, and i'm not inclined to disagree at all - on the contrary, even. As quite a few people have mentioned, there is a lot to like about BW2, including having lots of Pokémon to use in the main game, the PWT, the Black Tower/White Treehollow, the medals, Memory Link, the "Use another Repel" feature (although that was carried over to XY as well), and them being sequels with different storylines and not remakes of the first game with just a few tweaks like Emerald and Platinum were. I thoroughly enjoy so many of these new features for different reasons, like the medals motivating you to do things you probably wouldn't bother to do in older games, and the Pokédex completion rewards actually motivating you to go for it instead of giving you just a diploma.

In fact, I was just playing my main White 2 game shortly before typing this, and I was playing it this morning too. What I was doing there was attempting to breed a few Iron Fist Timburr to transfer over to XY once the Bank opens this week. And I realized that even after playing XY, I still love this game. While playing XY, one thing I really missed was watching that EXP bar go up like freaking crazy against big foes you were underleveled against. I was just in the White Treehollow, using my shiny Mamoswine that I transferred from Platinum a while ago, and got almost 48k EXP from a Pokémon Breeder's Blissey (traded + Lucky Egg Level 59 against Level 82). That was a good laugh. xP

And yet, I just feel like they're not cared for. I see more "it's the same thing as the originals" with them than I do Emerald and Platinum. Admittedly, those two did have a Battle Frontier, which were by far the main thing keeping people from saying the same thing about them, other than Emerald's tougher Gym Leaders and Platinum's New Sinnoh Dex and fixing the lag issues from DP. But I do know some people disliked the story here, because in BW it had you chasing Team Plasma throughout the entire game (although I don't get why that makes it so great, for me the highlight by far was battling N and Ghetsis at the end), while here it's very little different from your average Pokémon plot (but admittedly, since you knew what happened in the original BW, it makes the story generally predictable).

That's what i'm trying to get across here - it feels like the game has so much to offer, yet as I said, I feel like somehow they've gotten the worst (albeit still positive) reception of the main series titles. I still enjoy running around and doing post-game stuff in White 2, and I would honestly say there are other things that i'll take in BW2 over what XY has on the same notes, like better character development. *holds up flame-shield*
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Old January 10th, 2014 (1:53 PM).
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From my time playing W2 i found it much more fun than X & Y. those felt too easy to get through. W2 has been somewhat challenging and a much larger story and post championship quests.
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Old January 10th, 2014 (2:29 PM).
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B/W2 were some of my absolute favorite Pokemon games - they added a lot to B/W and were wonderful as sequels. I was very happy with them and it saddened me that I didn't play them as much as I should have for whatever reason. Like a poster above me has already said, there are several things these games have that X and Y lack.

They definitely do feel under-appreciated so whenever someone pops in who enjoyed them I become quite happy, haha. They deserve more love! I think the fifth gen is just not as appreciated in general.
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Old January 10th, 2014 (5:40 PM).
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To be completely honest with you... B2 is one of the best games I've ever played. It was the first 5th gen game I played and it was incredible. For the first time Pokemon actually let me play the game without bombarding me storyline and text in every single town. It wasn't too hard, but I definitely wasn't a push over. The visuals and audio of these games are incredible and stunning at first glance. 5th gen is a masterpiece and I'd have to say almost runs up to gen3.

I recommend to anyone that hasn't played these games, you are missing so much! Try it now!

Rating: 9.5/10
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Old January 10th, 2014 (7:14 PM).
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I just got White 2 yesterday, and only 6 hours into the game I love it--even more than X and Y. It's very well done, it expands on everything that was good about BW, and corrects the things that were wrong with it. The Unova region is a lot more diverse and explorable, and there's so many great features like the Dream Radar and the Pokemon Movies.

I think part of the reason they're so underrated is because people probably assumed they were just a glorified third version. That's the reason I didn't buy them initially. I didn't expect them to be much different than the original black and white.
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Old January 11th, 2014 (6:13 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
B/W2 were some of my absolute favorite Pokemon games - they added a lot to B/W and were wonderful as sequels. I was very happy with them and it saddened me that I didn't play them as much as I should have for whatever reason. Like a poster above me has already said, there are several things these games have that X and Y lack.

They definitely do feel under-appreciated so whenever someone pops in who enjoyed them I become quite happy, haha. They deserve more love! I think the fifth gen is just not as appreciated in general.
Yeah, as i've mentioned there are things in BW2 I like more than in XY, such as the PWT, Tower/Treehollow, Move Tutors, and as i've said in the past, they actually have fun battles. However, I do find you saying that interesting coming from someone who has openly said they're hesitant to play any DS era games having played XY.

And yeah, lately i've been feeling that Gen V in general hasn't been liked, and the only saving grace some people considered was the story in the original. I do find that interesting coming from someone who has openly said they're hesitant to play any DS era games having played XY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomMudkip View Post
To be completely honest with you... B2 is one of the best games I've ever played. It was the first 5th gen game I played and it was incredible. For the first time Pokemon actually let me play the game without bombarding me storyline and text in every single town. It wasn't too hard, but I definitely wasn't a push over. The visuals and audio of these games are incredible and stunning at first glance. 5th gen is a masterpiece and I'd have to say almost runs up to gen3.

I recommend to anyone that hasn't played these games, you are missing so much! Try it now!

Rating: 9.5/10
I'm not saying I think these games are bad - on the contrary. And yeah, the visual presentations are something I really, REALLY like, the caves, forests and moving grass all look much better than in the originals. And the Elite Four + Champion's battlefields too. I may have said this before, but i've never really cared for Pokémon stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zomgitscathy View Post
I just got White 2 yesterday, and only 6 hours into the game I love it--even more than X and Y. It's very well done, it expands on everything that was good about BW, and corrects the things that were wrong with it. The Unova region is a lot more diverse and explorable, and there's so many great features like the Dream Radar and the Pokemon Movies.

I think part of the reason they're so underrated is because people probably assumed they were just a glorified third version. That's the reason I didn't buy them initially. I didn't expect them to be much different than the original black and white.
Well i'm glad you enjoyed it, as i've said there are things between both BW2 and XY that I feel make them great. And pardon my French, but THANK YOU, someone other than me who actually sodding likes Pokéstar Studios! I'm sorry, but that had to be said. But you know what? I don't blame you for thinking they wouldn't be much different from BW at first, especially not if you didn't play Emerald and/or Platinum (although I would imagine you have).

Sorry if these responses don't seem too detailed but I gotta be out of here shortly.
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Old January 14th, 2014 (4:32 AM).
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B2W2 were solid entries, imo. Not without flaws, mind, but overall, solid.

Considering the flaws... imo the story was worse; even if BW's still needed a lot of work, it was at least a step in the right direction. Overall B2W2's went backwards, between the whole rival sidestory (he wasn't likeable imo, and the foreshadowing about his sister's poke was a joke). And the gym leaders were much less involved overall than before. On the plus side it had less N. ;p Some of the execution was poor too. Having a challenge mode? Great! Unable to access it until beating the game or local wifi interaction with someone who did? And that's if they have the right version - maybe you'd just then unlock Easy mode? Uh...

But it fixed a lot too. BW suffered imo from a lack of Pokemon to choose from early on. (Prior to 1st gym, it's starter, dog, cat, merkat thing, monkey, audino). B2W2 has a wealth of Pokémon! BW also suffered from a lack of post game. B2W2 arguably has the best, and included really neat stuff like Join Avenue. Lots to do.

But these games typically do worse in sales, even with B2W2 billed as a sequel, not a third version. People probably got the idea that it was the end of the gen already, and the new one would be for 3DS rather than the... 5th set of games on the nearly-retired DS. So I'm not surprised. Mind, 8 million sales (or ~ 4 outside of Japan) is still pretty darn good, especially given those circumstances and the popularity of roms (another problem for the DS).
Quote:
BW2 Was the MOST ORIGINAL sequel game ever. It added 200 new pokemon the the region, a new Areas, ORIGINAL STORY not copy+pasted from the first.
I do disagree with this - Pokémon is not really original in general plot (still get monsters from professor, beat bad team with their plot while beating gym leaders and then the E4 structure). That and the other games (Crystal, Emerald, etc) aren't sequels, so it's not really a fair comparison.

In fact, the only other main-series Pokémon sequel is GSC (3 years from RBY, or HGSS from FRLG), and I'd argue they did more. ;p (100 brand-new Pokémon, new region, introduced hold items, 2 new types, new story, etc etc).
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Old January 14th, 2014 (11:55 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandbill View Post
B2W2 were solid entries, imo. Not without flaws, mind, but overall, solid.

Considering the flaws... imo the story was worse; even if BW's still needed a lot of work, it was at least a step in the right direction. Overall B2W2's went backwards, between the whole rival sidestory (he wasn't likeable imo, and the foreshadowing about his sister's poke was a joke). And the gym leaders were much less involved overall than before. On the plus side it had less N. ;p Some of the execution was poor too. Having a challenge mode? Great! Unable to access it until beating the game or local wifi interaction with someone who did? And that's if they have the right version - maybe you'd just then unlock Easy mode? Uh...

But it fixed a lot too. BW suffered imo from a lack of Pokemon to choose from early on. (Prior to 1st gym, it's starter, dog, cat, merkat thing, monkey, audino). B2W2 has a wealth of Pokémon! BW also suffered from a lack of post game. B2W2 arguably has the best, and included really neat stuff like Join Avenue. Lots to do.

But these games typically do worse in sales, even with B2W2 billed as a sequel, not a third version. People probably got the idea that it was the end of the gen already, and the new one would be for 3DS rather than the... 5th set of games on the nearly-retired DS. So I'm not surprised. Mind, 8 million sales (or ~ 4 outside of Japan) is still pretty darn good, especially given those circumstances and the popularity of roms (another problem for the DS).
I do disagree with this - Pokémon is not really original in general plot (still get monsters from professor, beat bad team with their plot while beating gym leaders and then the E4 structure). That and the other games (Crystal, Emerald, etc) aren't sequels, so it's not really a fair comparison.

In fact, the only other main-series Pokémon sequel is GSC (3 years from RBY, or HGSS from FRLG), and I'd argue they did more. ;p (100 brand-new Pokémon, new region, introduced hold items, 2 new types, new story, etc etc).
I definitely see where you're coming from with this. The story seems more like an epilogue than a sequel, but I don't think that's so much of a bad thing. One of my main issues with BW is that it was too story driven, which felt out of place--if not intrusive--in a Pokemon game. I preferred how understated the plot was in BW 2. I didn't care too much for the rival either, but he had a lot more personality than Cheren.

One of my biggest problems with BW was the Unova region. It just wasn't appealing to me. It felt kinda stale, and it was totally bizarre the way an entire half of the region is unaccessible until you finish the main story, and then when you get there there's practically nothing to do. BW 2 vastly improved the region and made it 100 times more memorable.

Still, I'll never understand why you can't just do challenge mode from the start of the game
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Old January 14th, 2014 (12:19 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
B/W2 were some of my absolute favorite Pokemon games - they added a lot to B/W and were wonderful as sequels. I was very happy with them and it saddened me that I didn't play them as much as I should have for whatever reason. Like a poster above me has already said, there are several things these games have that X and Y lack.

They definitely do feel under-appreciated so whenever someone pops in who enjoyed them I become quite happy, haha. They deserve more love! I think the fifth gen is just not as appreciated in general.
Well, You Made my point for me. Black and White 2 were in my opinion, superior to Black and white.
This is merely my opinion though...
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Old February 7th, 2014 (5:17 PM).
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They were really only stopgap games for X/Y and were honestly very stale and generic titles. Better than the ****heaps that came before them, but still utterly forgettable. Honestly they felt like fangames in some areas especially character design.
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Old February 7th, 2014 (6:11 PM).
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They had by far the best storyline of all the Pokémon games. I hate when people refer to them as "fillers", because IMO you don't add 156 completely new Pokémon to a game if it's just going to be a filler. Playing BW feels so natural and pleasant to me that I wonder if it's the best in the series. It probably is. I think the Famitsu perfect score was justified.

People's reasons for hating them are mostly stupid.

1) Only new Pokémon until postgame: I don't know about you, but I really like that they did this, because, in a new Pokémon game, I want to use the new Pokémon! It's what Johto and Sinnoh did wrong IMO, because the new Pokémon in GSC and DPP are either weak (A LOT of the Johto roster had low BST and/or impractical stat distribution) or hard to obtain (most of the evolutions in DPP, for example). In my recent playthrough of X, I used only new Pokémon except for Charizard, who I used because of his Mega Evolution.

2) Bad designs: Every game is hated when it comes out for bad designs. It was like this with Hoenn, and Unova kept the trend. Seriously though, when 1st gen had balls, piles of waste and eggs for designs, you can't complain about ice cream in a more recent game. Heck, Vanilluxe has way more thought put into it than Muk, for example. And XY has a freakin' cotton candy Pokémon in it, which evolves when traded holding a food item, into a cupcake, and I don't see nearly as much hate. Furthermore, the ice cream is better in battle than the cupcake.

3) Linear world: This is a complaint I can sort of agree with, yet I don't see Kalos being criticized for the same thing, as it's guilty of the same thing. And some linearity is appreciated, after the mess that were Hoenn with that gigantic sea and Sinnoh with Mt. Coronet. Unova helped navigation a lot by making HMs not completely required to complete the story, as well as reusable TMs and convenient relearning of moves to prevent you from screwing your movesets with HMs. Many of the good things in Kalos are a development of what was introduced in Unova.

4) Starters suck: Competitively, yes, but they're more than adequate for the story mode. Charizard in RBY was the worst starter yet he got the most love, so the competitive prowess of the starters isn't a valid argument IMO.

So basically, yes, I'm most thankful for BW and I'm glad they created these games, as it meant the franchise is now headed into the right direction, as we've seen with many of the Kalos features that are simply developments of what began in Unova.
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Old February 11th, 2014 (7:26 AM).
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Ack, I voted wrong on the poll. ;_;

Anyway, I definitely liked B2W2 much more than I liked BW... I honestly really hate BW, so B2W2 was what saved Gen V, in my opinion. The Unova Pokemon were awesome, but I really disliked the storyline, as well as the region itself in BW. B2W2 fixed this by making the region much more vibrant with its new areas, and having a better story with less N. I also really loved Join Avenue (man, I wish it was in XY!), Pokestar Studios, and PWT... The type-expert challenges were so much fun! Medals were also a really awesome feature. Oh, and the Marine Tube is still one of my favorite locations in any Pokemon game, hands down. So, yeah, I didn't like BW very much, but I love B2W2, and I think it's sad that other people didn't want to give the game a chance.
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Old February 17th, 2014 (12:58 PM).
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Cerebrus, I really have to agree with most of the things you said here. Even though most of the people who really like BW on their own claim that only using new Pokémon are what's so great about it, as you said. You also addressed one of the biggest reasons GSC are arguably my least favorites (the fact that most of the Pokémon sucked, though it's kinda between them and RS). And yeah, this generation did introduce many Pokémon I really like, not to mention the point of not requiring many HMs throughout the game. And as you said they also carried most of this stuff into XY, which I quite like for that.

And Mesmerella, yeah that's what i'm getting at here. There were just so much to like about them, just as much as Emerald and Platinum if you ask me, but I feel that most of the people feel that the game is shallow without a Battle Frontier like those two did.

I'm gonna say this personally: is it just me, or do more of the people who feel BW2 were an insult to the series (not Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness or Sonic Next-Gen level insulting, but still) are ones that really loved the original BW for what it was (the story and only new Pokémon), while many of the people that really like BW2 are ones that didn't like BW that much at all? I wasn't big for the original BW for the longest time but they grew on me after a while.
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Old March 2nd, 2014 (1:36 PM).
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I don't know how other people liked them but I LIKED IT ALOT! Why you ask? Well because at least black and white had a better and longer post game then X and Y! And they also had more new Pokemon then X and Y!
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Old March 2nd, 2014 (1:37 PM).
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Old March 8th, 2014 (12:11 PM).
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The funny thing is that people were asking to shake up the story a bit, instead of the casual "Get 8 badges, become champion, the end", but when they got it in black/white, they were dissapointed. Your characters goal was to defeat N, not become champion, surprisingly, when they returned to the generic story with a few elements from the past (Black2/White2) everyone seemed happy. I really liked generation 5 though:D
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