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  #26    
Old January 25th, 2014, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GhastlyGastly View Post
And how can the evidence of Unown be overlooked? The Sinjoh Ruins are accessed via the Ruins of Alph: it's frankly a possibility that the Sinjoh Ruins don't exist, and are merely a dream-world created psychically by Unown. Unown clearly possess some mysterious creative power, whereas Arceus is dubious in that regard. Arceus clearly has qualities which would make it an easy target for ancient folklore to gravitate toward (it's very powerful, for example), but divinity and magic and creator-god powers are a bit of a stretch for me.
I think the Sinjoh Ruins are real. After you come back from the ruins, the director guy who asked you to enter the Ruins of Alph bumps into and says he's relieved to see you're ok because you vanished or something like that. Which implys that you actually went somewhere...though it could be that the Unown warped you somewhere, then made you hallucinate. But that's a bit much, right? What would be the purpose of doing that?

Not saying it proves/disproves anything, but I just wanted to say that.

Oh, and that's what Arceus is based off of? All I knew is that it was based off of some sort of creation deity. Never knew which one because the Bulbapedia page is all over the places about it, lisitng several deities, and ancient mythology isn't something I know much about. Good to know.
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  #27    
Old January 25th, 2014, 05:54 AM
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Arceus came first.
Arceus shaped the universe and it is stated he was there before it, after shaping the structure of the universe he then created Dialga, Palkia and Giratina meaning that those 3 legends were there before Mew aswell.

Okay now the universe is created by Gods, what now?
I think Mew acts as a sort of "first self replicating molecule" to populate the Earth with more Pokemon.
And then boom there you go all Pokemo
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  #28    
Old January 25th, 2014, 08:41 AM
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All I want to know that no one has talked about(unless in skimmed over it), is where did arceus' egg come from? Was it just "there" all of a sudden or what? Reminds of what came first...the chicken or the egg?
Maybe mew "popped" into existence and was bored so he asexually created an egg that was arceus to make more stuff so he wouldn't be bored. Then he transformed into every pokemon to give arceus a template to start by.
Or maybe like others have stated, arceus was first. Created the legendaries and had mew go populate this new "palette" he created.
Either way, the only thing I know for sure is that pokemon religion is sooo much more interesting than anything any church has ever created to attempt to control the masses(I.e. religion).
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  #29    
Old January 25th, 2014, 09:04 AM
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Yeah, like Lunis said, my question is, "Well where did Arceus's egg come from?" Did Quantum Physics just blip it into existence? Or did someone lay it? Say, Mew, or heck, maybe even Unowns - they're weird and capable of strange stuff, and if we're going to entertain the idea that perhaps Unowns are responsible for making it appear like Arceus is making a legendary's egg, it's worth considering that they could actually be responsible for ANY legendary's appearance. They HAVE been shown to be able to "create" illusory legendary Pokemon in the anime before. Who's to say that they don't make other Pokemon up just for kicks and just do such a good job that no one realizes it?

I know Mew is technically based on a defunct theory of evolution that was disproven by Darwin's version, but I like to think of the whole "Mew contains everyone's DNA" thing as a really badly explained version of mitochondrial DNA. That is to say, of course Mew "has a little of everyone's DNA," because all Pokemon inherited a little bit from Mew. So they all have that common link. It's like how if you go back far enough, just about all humans can be traced back to a "Mitochondrial Eve." In terms of moves, I like to think that as Pokemon specialized, they lost the ability to do moves they didn't specialize in. Kind of like how apes lost their tails and how we no longer use our appendixes. But the remaining Mew population has not lost that ability.
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  #30    
Old January 25th, 2014, 10:07 AM
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Arceus, the "God" of Pokemon this, and that.
*Sigh*
Well, you CAN refer to it as a god, since it was the first Pokemon to exist.
It was the first, but how did its egg even exist?
....Did I got a little off-topic?

Arceus looks like a goat to me.
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  #31    
Old January 25th, 2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Unidentified View Post
Arceus, the "God" of Pokemon this, and that.
*Sigh*
Well, you CAN refer to it as a god, since it was the first Pokemon to exist.
It was the first, but how did its egg even exist?
....Did I got a little off-topic?

Arceus looks like a goat to me.
There is no source which has ever stated that Arceus was the first Pokémon to exist. Again, you're taking myths at face-value, without actual evidence.

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Originally Posted by No Chance Without Zekrom View Post
I think the Sinjoh Ruins are real. After you come back from the ruins, the director guy who asked you to enter the Ruins of Alph bumps into and says he's relieved to see you're ok because you vanished or something like that. Which implys that you actually went somewhere...though it could be that the Unown warped you somewhere, then made you hallucinate. But that's a bit much, right? What would be the purpose of doing that?

Not saying it proves/disproves anything, but I just wanted to say that.

Oh, and that's what Arceus is based off of? All I knew is that it was based off of some sort of creation deity. Never knew which one because the Bulbapedia page is all over the places about it, lisitng several deities, and ancient mythology isn't something I know much about. Good to know.
Well, the Unown are clearly capable of transporting people to other dimensions/worlds/universes/dream-worlds/etc.

The Sinjoh Ruins may be real, in some sense, I don't deny that: what I'm skeptical about is the suggestion that Arceus must have created the egg which appears there. Whereas Arceus is not known definitively to have any such creative power, Unown indisputably are. That's my point.


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Originally Posted by DomesticYak View Post
Arceus came first.
Arceus shaped the universe and it is stated he was there before it, after shaping the structure of the universe he then created Dialga, Palkia and Giratina meaning that those 3 legends were there before Mew aswell.

Okay now the universe is created by Gods, what now?
I think Mew acts as a sort of "first self replicating molecule" to populate the Earth with more Pokemon.
And then boom there you go all Pokemo
It is never stated, anywhere, that Arceus created the universe, or was there before it, or anything like that. All that is stated is that mythology claims that Arceus did those things. There's a difference between mythological claims and definitive descriptions.

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Originally Posted by lunis View Post
All I want to know that no one has talked about(unless in skimmed over it), is where did arceus' egg come from? Was it just "there" all of a sudden or what? Reminds of what came first...the chicken or the egg?
Maybe mew "popped" into existence and was bored so he asexually created an egg that was arceus to make more stuff so he wouldn't be bored. Then he transformed into every pokemon to give arceus a template to start by.
Or maybe like others have stated, arceus was first. Created the legendaries and had mew go populate this new "palette" he created.
Either way, the only thing I know for sure is that pokemon religion is sooo much more interesting than anything any church has ever created to attempt to control the masses(I.e. religion).
And why couldn't the Sinnohjin religion of Arceusism be just the same as real world religions? Keep in mind that the people at Game Freak are almost entirely atheists and agnostics (and atheistic Buddhists, Shintoists, etc.); wouldn't it be entirely rational for them to design the Pokémon religion to mirror actual religions? Namely, that they're based on ancient superstitious beliefs and dubious claims? Not meaning to offend anybody who's religious here, but considering the views of the creators of Pokémon, I think it's a reasonable extrapolation; at the very least, they've clearly left it all up for debate. Otherwise, I wouldn't be justified in questioning it, haha.

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Originally Posted by Pokemon Trainer Jackey View Post
Yeah, like Lunis said, my question is, "Well where did Arceus's egg come from?" Did Quantum Physics just blip it into existence? Or did someone lay it? Say, Mew, or heck, maybe even Unowns - they're weird and capable of strange stuff, and if we're going to entertain the idea that perhaps Unowns are responsible for making it appear like Arceus is making a legendary's egg, it's worth considering that they could actually be responsible for ANY legendary's appearance. They HAVE been shown to be able to "create" illusory legendary Pokemon in the anime before. Who's to say that they don't make other Pokemon up just for kicks and just do such a good job that no one realizes it?

I know Mew is technically based on a defunct theory of evolution that was disproven by Darwin's version, but I like to think of the whole "Mew contains everyone's DNA" thing as a really badly explained version of mitochondrial DNA. That is to say, of course Mew "has a little of everyone's DNA," because all Pokemon inherited a little bit from Mew. So they all have that common link. It's like how if you go back far enough, just about all humans can be traced back to a "Mitochondrial Eve." In terms of moves, I like to think that as Pokemon specialized, they lost the ability to do moves they didn't specialize in. Kind of like how apes lost their tails and how we no longer use our appendixes. But the remaining Mew population has not lost that ability.
Unless somebody can show actual evidence that there was actually a "cosmic egg", and it isn't merely mythological, then I see no reason to even include it in this conversation. There's no reason to think that Arceus hatched from any "cosmic egg", ergo, I'm not even going to discuss the futile hypothetical mythical ideas of "which came first?" and all that.

The only fact stated definitively in all this is that Mew contains the DNA of all Pokémon (I don't believe that means merely mitochondrial DNA, I believe it means that Mew contains the DNA of all Pokémon); as I've said, I think that the most plausible explanation for this is that Mew is a Pokémon from the future: a common descendant, created as the result of excessive Ditto breeding. Anyway, I digress... But that's my view: Arceus is probably not the first Pokémon (if anything, its only special feature is that it may be a transdimensional Pokémon; though others, such as Haunter, Unown, etc. share this feature), and Mew is probably not a common ancestor of Pokémon (though it may be a common descendant).
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Last edited by GhastlyGastly; January 25th, 2014 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #32    
Old January 25th, 2014, 06:04 PM
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And why couldn't the Sinnohjin religion of Arceusism be just the same as real world religions? Keep in mind that the people at Game Freak are almost entirely atheists and agnostics (and atheistic Buddhists, Shintoists, etc.); wouldn't it be entirely rational for them to design the Pokémon religion to mirror actual religions? Namely, that they're based on ancient superstitious beliefs and dubious claims? Not meaning to offend anybody who's religious here, but considering the views of the creators of Pokémon, I think it's a reasonable extrapolation; at the very least, they've clearly left it all up for debate. Otherwise, I wouldn't be justified in questioning it, haha.
haha I have no doubt that's what they did. I mean, after all, a large percentage of imaginative creation is based off of ideas and things found in the real world.
And if there is one thing in the real world that can ever be debated enough to potentially cause a third world war, it would be religion.
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  #33    
Old January 28th, 2014, 05:58 AM
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Woow. I didn't even knew that. Really ? I taught Mew and Mewtwo are borthers or Brother in law or something. But arcues and Mew ? it kinda shocked me. We will get more detail about the history of Pokemon in Bulbagarden.
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  #34    
Old January 31st, 2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GhastlyGastly View Post
What's particularly "likely" about Arceus coming first and Mew being created afterward? Mew possesses the DNA of all Pokémon: that is a stated fact. Arceus being born out of an egg and creating the world and all that is very clearly stated to be legend and mythology.

And how can the evidence of Unown be overlooked? The Sinjoh Ruins are accessed via the Ruins of Alph: it's frankly a possibility that the Sinjoh Ruins don't exist, and are merely a dream-world created psychically by Unown. Unown clearly possess some mysterious creative power, whereas Arceus is dubious in that regard. Arceus clearly has qualities which would make it an easy target for ancient folklore to gravitate toward (it's very powerful, for example), but divinity and magic and creator-god powers are a bit of a stretch for me.

"Seeing first-hand" Arceus' alleged creative power doesn't impress me, frankly; there are too many red flags: Unown, Pokédex entries, movesets, Mew... It just doesn't add up. There are a number of adequate explanations other than taking the myths at face-value. All that the Sinjoh Ruins prove to me is that there appear to be circumstances which could lead ancient, superstitious Sinnohjin to label Arceus as a deity; whether they were correct is highly debatable. As I may have mentioned before, I'm not certain that the link of Sinnoh to Hokkaido is coincidental: the native Ainu people of Hokkaido worship bears as their ancestral god-animal, and have a plethora of legends and myths about various animals in the region (though of course none of them are known to possess the mystical powers they are given in the stories). Arceus also has many parallels with the Chinese creation myth of Pangu (especially considering that Pangu means literally "plate ancient" in Chinese), and the legend of Bai Ze (hakutaku in Japanese).

Pangu was said to be a monstrous horned giant, who emerged from a cosmic egg, and created the world; in some versions, he is aided in the creation by the Turtle, the Qilin, the Phoenix, and the Dragon. The Bai Ze was a mystical white beast, possessing nine eyes and six horns (incidentally, Arceus can be interpreted as bearing similar features, namely, his "halo"), and a body variously described as similar to a lion, an ox, or a qilin: the Bai Ze was found by the Yellow Emperor of China, and it dictated to him a book describing the 11,520 varieties of monsters and legendary creatures in the world. I think the parallels here are obvious.

In short, however, I reiterate my extreme reluctance to accept Arceus as a deity of any kind; there just isn't enough evidence, and there are too many alternate explanations, parallels to mythology, etc.

It just doesn't work for me, haha

(And yes, for those who noticed, Absol is also based on the Bai Ze; albeit a particular Japanese version, in which the creature predicts a terrible disaster, rather than giving knowledge about legendary monsters.)

P.S. ~ Why can't Mew be a Pokémon from the future? Why would the genetic lines diverge over time? I mean, obviously that's ordinarily the case, but Ditto makes it entirely possible (and likely) that the lines would actually converge instead. I wrote a longer article discussing all that on my blog though, haha You can take a look if you want: the "Pokémonography" link in my signature will take you there.
I did overlook the fact that you have to go to the Ruins of Alph before going to the Sinjoh Ruins, making the possibility of an Unown-induced hallucination plausible. Of course there is also circumstantial evidence indicating that the people of Sinnoh were in contact with those of Johto, so the existence of a place like the Sinjoh Ruins is also not beyond possibility.

I don't want be combative, but I do take offense at the accusation that I have taken the Arceus mythology at face value. I went to the Ruins, saw what was there, looked at other relevant data, and then drew a conclusion. That said, I find this sort of back and forth discussion to be very helpful and entertaining.

There is also a glaringly obvious question that needs answering: how is it even possible for an egg containing a legendary pokemon to exist, and where did it come from? Clearly there is some phenomena that appears to defy the fact that legendaries don't hatch from eggs, and Arceus is connected to the event. You can't go to the ruins and get the egg unless you have Arceus with you.



On the subject of where Arceus' egg would have come from, I am reminded very much of the Vedanta Hindu view of existence. Vedanta states three things that are all held to be simultaneously true: 1- The world (objective, observable reality) is an illusion. 2- Brahman (subjective consciousness, feeling-awareness) alone is real. 3- Brahman is the world.

While paradoxical, I feel that this is an accurate description of the world. The observer and the observed arise together or not at all. And while they are different things, they are not separate things. Consider that the moon does not wait to cast it's reflection in the water, and without the moon, or without the water, there is no reflection.

So perhaps it is the case that Arceus' legend is a metaphor for this view of reality. This is also consistent with how well-versed the team at GF is in Eastern mythology.
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  #35    
Old January 31st, 2014, 03:15 PM
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I did overlook the fact that you have to go to the Ruins of Alph before going to the Sinjoh Ruins, making the possibility of an Unown-induced hallucination plausible. Of course there is also circumstantial evidence indicating that the people of Sinnoh were in contact with those of Johto, so the existence of a place like the Sinjoh Ruins is also not beyond possibility.

I don't want be combative, but I do take offense at the accusation that I have taken the Arceus mythology at face value. I went to the Ruins, saw what was there, looked at other relevant data, and then drew a conclusion. That said, I find this sort of back and forth discussion to be very helpful and entertaining.

There is also a glaringly obvious question that needs answering: how is it even possible for an egg containing a legendary pokemon to exist, and where did it come from? Clearly there is some phenomena that appears to defy the fact that legendaries don't hatch from eggs, and Arceus is connected to the event. You can't go to the ruins and get the egg unless you have Arceus with you.
Firstly, I apologize if I offended you before; I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were taking things at face-value. At the time I wrote what I wrote, I believe I was merely becoming frustrated with the fact that I've had to debate these same points with other Pokémon fans for years, hahaha
And yes, the presence of Unown and the Ruins of Alph in this scenario definitely seems significant to me. You're correct though, there is some reason to think that the Sinjoh Ruins may be a real place; but then, Unown are known to be perfectly capable of transforming a real place into a bizarre dream-world-like region.
As for the difficulty of legendary Pokémon hatching from eggs; I see no difficulty. The fact that legendary Pokémon refuse to breed in captivity (i.e., Pokémon Daycare) is not proof that they do not reproduce. I actually wrote an article discussing Pokémon reproduction which deals with this very subject, on my blog: Pokémonography.
And yes, I agree: Arceus does seem to be somehow connected to the event. In what way Arceus is connected.... that remains to be seen. I for one notice that Arceus and Dialga are much more similar in appearance than any of the other Creation Trio (Quartet) members. Some of Arceus' Pokédex entries note a myth claiming that Arceus created the world with its "thousand hands". Well, we can see quite plainly that Arceus does not have a thousand hands. This story, however, indicates to me an influence of Buddhist mythology on Arceus (as well as the Bai Ze and Pangu legends I've mentioned previously): notably, the legend of Avalokiteśvara (also known as Guānyīn, Kannon, or Kanzeon). It also evokes the Hindu idea of Vishvarupa, a divine form taken on by Krishna, which is sometimes said to have one-thousand arms. It could be argued that Arceus is in part based on Vishnu/Krishna, and that Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina are in part based on the notion that Vishnu created other gods from various parts of his body (Dialga has a similar head and body shape; Palkia has similar coloration and, debatably, feet; Giratina has similar features as well, especially its spikes, particularly in its Origin Forme). Anyway.... I digress, haha
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  #36    
Old February 1st, 2014, 06:17 PM
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Maybe Mew and Arceus both lived at the same time, and Arceus created the Pokémon Universe, and Mew created the Pokémon themselves. Or maybe Arceus created Mew to create the Pokémon, making Arceus the ancestor of Mew.
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  #37    
Old February 2nd, 2014, 08:43 AM
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If you subscribe to the deity thought process, I think it was more like Arceus ended up duplicating itself - think cells - but the process wasn't perfect and there was a massive difference between the two species; the new Pokemon - later named Mew - proceeded to duplicate imperfectly again and created new Pokemon.

Without it, I do like the idea of Mew being the future Pokemon where it's the convergence of all species.
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  #38    
Old February 2nd, 2014, 03:12 PM
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Personally, I think I'm with the whole Arceus - legendaries & Mew - everything else more than any other theory. Though it doesn't seem to be truly provable either way.

I will say, though, that Arceus is a pretty lousy god, considering it can be taken down by a well-trained Caterpie.
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  #39    
Old February 2nd, 2014, 09:05 PM
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I will say, though, that Arceus is a pretty lousy god, considering it can be taken down by a well-trained Caterpie.
*snerk*

Ok, I've always been fond of the idea for having an Eeveeloution for every type, but I realized the other day that if we DID get one for each type, then people would make all sorts of stories about how Arceus is somehow an Eevee (or the other way around) like how some people theorize that Suicune/Entei/Raikou are Flareon/Jolteon/Vaporeon. Now I kinda want them to exist even more just to see people run wild with various hypotheses. I find Pokemon lore and mythology (as well as fan-theories) to be quite interesting, even if I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the stories and ideas. (I tend to think that, okay, there's more than one of each of most of the legendaries (they're just super rare), so I think it's possible that certain individuals ARE indeed powerful enough to have done some of the things that the games and anime claim they do, but not every single legendary has done those things. Like, sure, there's a bird trio + Lugia that governs the weather in the Orange Islands, but not every single Articuno, Moltres, or Zapdos has that kind of role and most are just kind of doing their own thing, hence why Lorelei and Red can have an Articuno without destroying the world. So maybe ONE Arceus is a god, but the rest probably aren't.)
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  #40    
Old February 3rd, 2014, 06:23 PM
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I think Arceus is an all powerful being but didn't create the legendaries. It's kind of like the greek gods, Arceus is Zeus. I think Arceus is not the ancestor of Mew or any of the legnedaries, but with Unknown, Arceus' helpers, it created all the pokemon which were able to breed.
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  #41    
Old February 10th, 2014, 11:13 PM
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interesting theory but you miss something about giratina it was created before any other pokemon was created by arceaus.And again you guys don`t know any thing about space and time because without time the fabric of the universe wont be able to gain motion and without space it would not even exist.so on time has its own roads and space another.so a pokemon or not it needs the main thing in life (air,space,time,food) so without arceus creating the universe mew would not even exist.And finally arceus is alpha not creator but a guide.Sent by the original creator who did not created pokemons but us.so for us humans arceus is a guide not god.But for pokemon it is a god.That why I think cyrus a new world because without dialga and palkia pokemons will be no more but us we still exist don`t we, on earth.

Last edited by The Ash-Ketchum; February 11th, 2014 at 07:57 AM.
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  #42    
Old February 11th, 2014, 12:53 AM
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interesting theory but you miss something about giratina it was created before any other pokemon was created by arceaus.And again you guys don`t know any thing about space and time because without time the fabric of the universe wont be able to gain motion and without space it would not even exist.so on time has its own roads and space another.so a pokemon or not it needs the main thing in life (air,space,time,food) so without arceus creating the universe mew would not even exist.And finally arceus is alpha not creator but a guide.Sent by the original creator who did not created pokemons but us.so for us humans arceus is a guide not god.But for pokemon it is a god.That why I think cyrus a new world because without dialga and palkia pokemons will be no more but us we still exist don`t we on earth.
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, sorry.... It sounds like you're suggesting some kind of creationism, but non-Arceus creationism; none of what you're saying sounds like it's supported by evidence. Although I admit I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, so I don't know, haha
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Old February 11th, 2014, 07:59 AM
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If you want proof try living without eating nothing(even water)for as loang as mew lived(maybe 100 years).Ha now who is gonna laugh.
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  #44    
Old February 11th, 2014, 08:11 AM
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If you want proof try living without eating nothing(even water)for as loang as mew lived(maybe 100 years).Ha now who is gonna laugh.

1)Since when was Giratina the first thing made by Arceus?
2) It's Pokémon. Perhaps Mew doesn't need air/water/space to live. Same goes for Arceus and the Creation trio. So what's your point?
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Old February 11th, 2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by The Ash-Ketchum View Post
If you want proof try living without eating nothing(even water)for as loang as mew lived(maybe 100 years).Ha now who is gonna laugh.
No canon source has discussed the lifespan of Mew, or whether Mew requires physical sustenance to survive. Every point you've made is completely unsupported, I'm sorry to say.
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  #46    
Old February 17th, 2014, 06:41 AM
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Rei Shingetsu
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http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...Pokémon_world

^ I stick to these
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  #47    
Old February 17th, 2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by EXO時代 View Post
The wiki makes for a good orientation to what's been presented by the canon literature. However, the canon story is based on a mythology, while here we are trying to infer, via logic, an origin story not based on mythology. Pokelogic is always fuzzy though, lol.
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  #48    
Old February 18th, 2014, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by YZN View Post
The wiki makes for a good orientation to what's been presented by the canon literature. However, the canon story is based on a mythology, while here we are trying to infer, via logic, an origin story not based on mythology. Pokelogic is always fuzzy though, lol.
Well put The fact that the canon seems to have mostly provided us with mythology is a trifle frustrating at times, particularly for a scientist, such as myself, haha
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  #49    
Old February 18th, 2014, 04:45 AM
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Rei Shingetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZN View Post
The wiki makes for a good orientation to what's been presented by the canon literature. However, the canon story is based on a mythology, while here we are trying to infer, via logic, an origin story not based on mythology. Pokelogic is always fuzzy though, lol.
It's JUST up to you; I was just saying that was my so-called "belief" in the time frame and happenings.

And it's just a game to me and I don't see the need to care who gave birth to who or whether they are really god or not.

And it's hilarious to me how some people don't believe in deity in Pokemon but actually believe in fire-breathing dragons and the whole-new-Fairies.
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Last edited by Rei Shingetsu; February 18th, 2014 at 04:52 AM.
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  #50    
Old February 18th, 2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by EXO時代 View Post
It's JUST up to you; I was just saying that was my so-called "belief" in the time frame and happenings.

And it's just a game to me and I don't see the need to care who gave birth to who or whether they are really god or not.

And it's hilarious to me how some people don't believe in deity in Pokemon but actually believe in fire-breathing dragons and the whole-new-Fairies.
Well, but then, "fire-breathing dragons" and "fairies" don't necessitate magic, do they? Unlike a deity, haha
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