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View Poll Results: Is "HM slave" an appropriate term?
It should be phased out. 6 17.14%
It's fine this way. 4 11.43%
It doesn't really matter. 25 71.43%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26    
Old January 28th, 2014, 12:30 AM
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Have you ever tried to play through the game without a HM Slave? You can't! The slave is necessary to the game. You need the slave, so you don't have to waste a move slot on a less desirable move on a good well balanced pokemon.

They exists because they need to. Because they're the pokemon that the players deserve, but not the one they need right now. So we won't give them their freedom, because they can take it. Because they're not our normal pokemon. They are a silent guardian, a watchful protector. They are a Dark Knight.
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  #27    
Old January 28th, 2014, 10:07 AM
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Uh, I just suck it up and use Fly, Strength, Surf, and the other damage-dealing HMs as damage dealing moves in my Pokemons' movesets. So, yeah, I have played without an "HM Slave." I don't play competitively so it's not like I have to have 100% the best moves and can't have a move that's not ZOMG AMAZING. The NPCs aren't so tough that HM moves are useless against them. And I think of Fly as being a legitimately useful move, so I like it. Even whatever Pokemon that has Flash has a fair shot of staying with me the whole game if I like its species enough and don't replace it with a Pokemon whose species I just happen to like more.
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  #28    
Old January 28th, 2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HUF_DBC View Post
Have you ever tried to play through the game without a HM Slave? You can't! The slave is necessary to the game. You need the slave, so you don't have to waste a move slot on a less desirable move on a good well balanced pokemon.

They exists because they need to. Because they're the pokemon that the players deserve, but not the one they need right now. So we won't give them their freedom, because they can take it. Because they're not our normal pokemon. They are a silent guardian, a watchful protector. They are a Dark Knight.
The problem is not on the use of the HM carrier, but on the the term we use for it.
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  #29    
Old January 28th, 2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by YZN View Post
Once again, I propose that it is not just a term. The term (or label) represents a mental attitude, specifically the attitude that the HM slave has less worth than the other team members.
But that isn't the definition of the term, that is simply a mental attitude that can be developed along with the term. There's nothing to suggest that people think that way. It's simply a term used to describe a Pokemon that does what the Trainer wants it to do, as the term implies. Personally, I don't really see how something that does so much can have "less worth" than my other team members. Some are meant for battle, some are not.

I mean, if you're going to look at the morals of Pokemon, the whole concept of battling seems pretty immoral, don't you think?

Either way, it's just a game. I can understand that you might feel uncomfortable with the term, but there seriously is no way to faze it out, unless you'd like to ban the term from PC, which just sounds ridiculous to me.
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  #30    
Old January 28th, 2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUF_DBC View Post
Have you ever tried to play through the game without a HM Slave? You can't! The slave is necessary to the game. You need the slave, so you don't have to waste a move slot on a less desirable move on a good well balanced pokemon.

They exists because they need to. Because they're the pokemon that the players deserve, but not the one they need right now. So we won't give them their freedom, because they can take it. Because they're not our normal pokemon. They are a silent guardian, a watchful protector. They are a Dark Knight.
I've played through every Pokemon game I've ever owned without shoving all HM moves onto 1 or 2 Pokemon and had no trouble beating them. In fact I split up all HM's amongst my main team because I don't like to be restricted at any point in the game and have to go the PC in the Pokemon Center. I also don't like to have any Pokemon on my team that I can't use in battle. I'd rather have 6 very strong Pokemon with HM's than 4 perfect Pokemon and 2 Pokemon with a useless moveset and low level. Each Pokemon has 1 HM and a couple have 2, but they also have 2-3 other moves that are extremely powerful, not to mention the fact that their level keeps rising making them stronger. I don't see how anyone has trouble beating the "campaign" this way. I love The Dark Knight reference!
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  #31    
Old January 31st, 2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Shoot|The|Puck View Post
But that isn't the definition of the term, that is simply a mental attitude that can be developed along with the term. There's nothing to suggest that people think that way. It's simply a term used to describe a Pokemon that does what the Trainer wants it to do, as the term implies.
The definition of a slave is a person that is owned by another as property. The usage of the term itself reflects and arises with the perception. If you refer to your car as a bucket of bolts, it is indicative of a certain attitude towards the car. Calling it a finely-tuned machine shows a different perception.

Quote:
I mean, if you're going to look at the morals of Pokemon, the whole concept of battling seems pretty immoral, don't you think?
PETA thinks so. I think it depends on how the trainers treat their pokemon, and Game Freak has a long history of encouraging this sort of introspection.

Quote:
Either way, it's just a game. I can understand that you might feel uncomfortable with the term, but there seriously is no way to faze it out, unless you'd like to ban the term from PC, which just sounds ridiculous to me.
Getting rid of the term is actually very simple. I view pokemon as my friends and trusted companions, and not as my property. So I choose not to refer to any of them as slaves. If the other forum members made this same choice, the term would be phased out, kaput, a thing of the past.
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  #32    
Old February 2nd, 2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by YZN View Post
Once again, I propose that it is not just a term. The term (or label) represents a mental attitude, specifically the attitude that the HM slave has less worth than the other team members.
But they have less worth than the other team members, barring a few special cases - such as Mew. Most of them are rather common Pokemon like Geodude or Bidoof/Bibarel that are scrapped most of the time in favor of better options later in the game, and even if I do want to use them I can catch two and pick one to be the slave.

Pokemon, at least in the only form of canon that really matters, are your property and will blindly obey you. You can catch any Pokemon call it Dumbface and have it completely obey you, save for a few exceptions - non-fateful encounter legendaries.

Calling them HM Slaves or HM Carriers or even "Highly appreciated move specialist that are very much needed" or whatever won't change the fact that at the end of the day, they don't care.
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  #33    
Old February 3rd, 2014, 04:03 PM
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Yeah, HM Slaves are appropriate imo. Loyal Pokemon serve their master, slave is viewed as derogatory but the pokemon are servants. I don't see anything wrong with the term.
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  #34    
Old February 3rd, 2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZN View Post
The definition of a slave is a person that is owned by another as property. The usage of the term itself reflects and arises with the perception. If you refer to your car as a bucket of bolts, it is indicative of a certain attitude towards the car. Calling it a finely-tuned machine shows a different perception.
The perception you're talking about has come from two thousand years of human usage of slaves and doesn't come from a name for useless Pokemon only used for manual labor.

Technically, in the definition of slavery, there is no perception of it being derogatory. Being owned as property doesn't particularly imply anything bad. In the anime, most people that own Pokemon treat them as friends and property. The Pokemon don't seem to have a problem with this.

Quote:
PETA thinks so. I think it depends on how the trainers treat their pokemon, and Game Freak has a long history of encouraging this sort of introspection.
It's pretty immoral. You're basically telling wild animals to claw, bite, and scratch (among other things) other wild animals to make your ego and "success" bigger.

Quote:
Getting rid of the term is actually very simple. I view pokemon as my friends and trusted companions, and not as my property. So I choose not to refer to any of them as slaves. If the other forum members made this same choice, the term would be phased out, kaput, a thing of the past.
What I'm talking about is world-wide usage, which will never end just because PokeCommunity has strict rules on this nickname. Of course if all the other members on PokeCommunity were to cease using the term, it would most likely be phased out. To me it just seems like there's a very small minority that actually cares about this sort of thing. Personally, I don't care. It's a video game and I don't think that using the term HM Slave really does anything bad.

Like I said before, in the anime most people that own Pokemon treat them as friends and property. If your whole argument is that the term HM slave implies a state of superiority and that your HM slave is your property, I wouldn't agree, but I do agree that Pokemon are property and we obviously have some kind of superiority to them if they obey us simply by getting caught in a specially designed ball.
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  #35    
Old February 3rd, 2014, 09:05 PM
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I don't like the term because it makes the HM Pokémon sound inferior to the others, while they're just as useful. A Pokémon (or a combination of Pokémon) who can learn most HMs is a godsend, really.

However, this system is one of the things I hate about Pokémon. What's wrong with allowing a Pidgeot to automatically be able to fly you to any previously visited city after he evolves and you have a certain badge? Why am I forced to teach him a nearly useless move just so he can Fly me to any city? There are quite a few Pokémon who can afford to waste a moveslot for something like Cut, but IMO if the HMs are so important (they're called "Hidden" Machines after all, and can't be deleted), they should teach useful moves, not crap like Cut and Dive.

The HM lineup consists of many redundant and otherwise useless moves, so teaching them all to your main party puts you at a disadvantage. They realized this and made the games less intensive on HMs from 5th gen onwards, but it doesn't change the fact the system is stupid. I'd say scrap HMs and make them act purely as field moves. The only useful HMs as of 6th gen in battle are Surf and Waterfall and no one is going to miss Surf when Scald and Mega Launcher-boosted Water Pulse are better, while Waterfall could be replaced by Aqua Tail or a new move in most Pokémon.
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  #36    
Old February 4th, 2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cerberus87 View Post
However, this system is one of the things I hate about Pokémon. What's wrong with allowing a Pidgeot to automatically be able to fly you to any previously visited city after he evolves and you have a certain badge? Why am I forced to teach him a nearly useless move just so he can Fly me to any city? There are quite a few Pokémon who can afford to waste a moveslot for something like Cut, but IMO if the HMs are so important (they're called "Hidden" Machines after all, and can't be deleted), they should teach useful moves, not crap like Cut and Dive.

That's the thing I never got about HMs. Why is it that we need to use a machine on a Pokémon to teach it something it already knows how to do? It's very clear that Pidegeot can fly and carry a person on their back while flying. Lapras is obviously capable of swimming and ferrying people on its back, yet it can't do that for you until you teach it Surf with the HM.


So, wtf, Game Freak?
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  #37    
Old February 4th, 2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by No Chance Without Zekrom View Post
That's the thing I never got about HMs. Why is it that we need to use a machine on a Pokémon to teach it something it already knows how to do? It's very clear that Pidegeot can fly and carry a person on their back while flying. Lapras is obviously capable of swimming and ferrying people on its back, yet it can't do that for you until you teach it Surf with the HM.


So, wtf, Game Freak?
I agree, although what makes perfect sense in real life doesn't always work in a video game. If I caught a Pokemon that could surf right at the beginning of the game I could immediately go and surf to a town that I'm not suppose to visit until much later. This would not work because there is a linear plot to follow.
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  #38    
Old February 4th, 2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pokemasta92 View Post
I agree, although what makes perfect sense in real life doesn't always work in a video game. If I caught a Pokemon that could surf right at the beginning of the game I could immediately go and surf to a town that I'm not suppose to visit until much later. This would not work because there is a linear plot to follow.
But the thing is, you still could have the badge requirement, just not the slot-wasting move to use; maybe completely get rid of some HMs or make them purely optional?
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  #39    
Old February 5th, 2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Slnxdx View Post
But the thing is, you still could have the badge requirement, just not the slot-wasting move to use; maybe completely get rid of some HMs or make them purely optional?
Good luck trying to convince people that your Pidgeot can't fly because you don't have the fourth gym badge.
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  #40    
Old February 5th, 2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Shoot|The|Puck View Post
Good luck trying to convince people that your Pidgeot can't fly because you don't have the fourth gym badge.
Good luck trying to convince people your Pidgeot can't fly because it doesn't have the move. All in all, this only applies in game physics where it acts as roadblocks, the way you're suggesting - anime/manga physics - there's no need for badges or whatever since Pokemon more or less know every move they can at once - and most HMs become more of a "Use your claws to cut" than "Use Cut" situation.
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  #41    
Old February 7th, 2014, 07:39 PM
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Heh, I actually have thought about this before. I usually refer to them as "HM buddies", don't really know why, I don't exactly have a problem with the term "slave" being used. I just get a strange connection to my Pokemon, even the "slaves" and "HM buddy" just kind of stuck for me.

I read through some posts and while I do agree it's just a game and the Pokemon do not have feelings, this is an interesting topic to discuss, regardless. It seems to be more about what the individual feels comfortable referring to them as I guess.

I also agree that generally, the Pokemon community understands that calling pixels a slave is different and a smaller deal than referring to something breathing as a slave. It's kind of similar to the term "grammar nazi", except in that case you're labeling a breathing human. I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually offended by that term either, though.

All in all, I don't mind either way, no one seems truly upset about it as far as I know :3
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  #42    
Old February 8th, 2014, 01:25 AM
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I'll have to mention that there are RSE playthroughs where my Zigzagoon slave is the Pokémon that I've had the longest.
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  #43    
Old February 8th, 2014, 01:59 AM
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I see no problems with using this term. Unlike my fellow team members, the HM slave is just one Linoone having four HMs on it, and I box it as soon as I finish the area that needs HMs.
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  #44    
Old February 10th, 2014, 03:56 PM
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I think it's just much ado about people wanting to feel morally rightous and politically correct for intellectual circlejerking, which is pretty much the same as much ado about nothing.

It reminds me when back in my time where was a whole argument in the IT industry because people complained that the interface for multiple disks in computers assigned the terms "master" drive and "slave" drive, same as "master" database and "slave" database. In the end the circlejerkers won the first battle, and left the lasting harm of mistrust in the IT community towards the legalese and the ability to actually refer to things that has actually hindered the inclusion of other kinds of people in the discipline. Just search last year IT news for "donglegate" and you're golden. Or better yet, don't.

The truth is, maybe the term is derogatory by design and maybe people have to feel bad about it, but there is a reason behind usage of the term - its meaning (or whichever meanings it has that can be applied to the concept) fits better than the alternatives - for the people who introduce the term. And that, eventually, creates custom. This matters because we as a culture take and spread ideas from their originators without digesting and processing them much ourselves, so when we get around to see damage it is already too late for us to even mostly want to change things.

No matter what the complainers said there is no simple, single pair of terms that better describes the relationships between my disks than "master / slave" and, taken from the perspective of the games's world and implementation and the kind of people who put the forethought on it (ie.: competitives, smogonites, etc) there is no simple term that better describes the function of such mons in my team than "HM slave" - note that it could be taken to mean a slave to HMs, just as we sometimes say that big screen stars are "slave to PR"; not necessarily "slave to the player".

If another term naturally comes around thanks to the evolution of the language? By all means, I'm taking it. But forcing it down my throats just because the Token Ethnic Minority of the Week needs to complain for social equity? I have been well fed of it in the last 20 years to now having to take it in Pokémon, thanks.
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  #45    
Old February 10th, 2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by solovino View Post
I think it's just much ado about people wanting to feel morally rightous and politically correct for intellectual circlejerking, which is pretty much the same as much ado about nothing.

It reminds me when back in my time where was a whole argument in the IT industry because people complained that the interface for multiple disks in computers assigned the terms "master" drive and "slave" drive, same as "master" database and "slave" database. In the end the circlejerkers won the first battle, and left the lasting harm of mistrust in the IT community towards the legalese and the ability to actually refer to things that has actually hindered the inclusion of other kinds of people in the discipline. Just search last year IT news for "donglegate" and you're golden. Or better yet, don't.

The truth is, maybe the term is derogatory by design and maybe people have to feel bad about it, but there is a reason behind usage of the term - its meaning (or whichever meanings it has that can be applied to the concept) fits better than the alternatives - for the people who introduce the term. And that, eventually, creates custom. This matters because we as a culture take and spread ideas from their originators without digesting and processing them much ourselves, so when we get around to see damage it is already too late for us to even mostly want to change things.

No matter what the complainers said there is no simple, single pair of terms that better describes the relationships between my disks than "master / slave" and, taken from the perspective of the games's world and implementation and the kind of people who put the forethought on it (ie.: competitives, smogonites, etc) there is no simple term that better describes the function of such mons in my team than "HM slave" - note that it could be taken to mean a slave to HMs, just as we sometimes say that big screen stars are "slave to PR"; not necessarily "slave to the player".

If another term naturally comes around thanks to the evolution of the language? By all means, I'm taking it. But forcing it down my throats just because the Token Ethnic Minority of the Week needs to complain for social equity? I have been well fed of it in the last 20 years to now having to take it in Pokémon, thanks.
Couldn't have said it better.
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  #46    
Old February 10th, 2014, 04:25 PM
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Something else worth pointing out is that all Pokemon in your possession are technically slaves. They can be HM Slaves, Battle Slaves, or Sit inside a computer twiddling your thumbs" Slaves. If you were a Pokemon, which would you rather be? At least the HM Slaves get some exercise without having to get bitten, poisoned, burned, electrocuted, tackled, scratched, bitten, and maimed.

HM slaves are living the good life compared to the others.
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  #47    
Old February 10th, 2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by solovino View Post
I think it's just much ado about people wanting to feel morally rightous and politically correct for intellectual circlejerking, which is pretty much the same as much ado about nothing.
Morals are, in my estimation, a subject deserving of serious discussion and debate. All the better that the conversation has relevance even in the make-believe world of Pokemon.

I don't share your rejection of political correctness as "intellectual circle-jerking". I find it practical, fulfilling, and enjoyable to give attention to the nuance of meaning within language.

Quote:
No matter what the complainers said there is no simple, single pair of terms that better describes the relationships between my disks than "master / slave" and, taken from the perspective of the games's world and implementation and the kind of people who put the forethought on it (ie.: competitives, smogonites, etc) there is no simple term that better describes the function of such mons in my team than "HM slave" - note that it could be taken to mean a slave to HMs, just as we sometimes say that big screen stars are "slave to PR"; not necessarily "slave to the player".

If another term naturally comes around thanks to the evolution of the language? By all means, I'm taking it.
I nominate HM Buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhmew View Post
[color=Orchid]Heh, I actually have thought about this before. I usually refer to them as "HM buddies"...
Several people have pointed out that the HM carrier is an essential part of many teams, and a debt of gratitude is owed to any pokemon that has an HM move. HM buddy is more functionally fit than HM slave - it acknowledges that debt by affirming the pokemon's value, rather than enumerating its shortcomings.

Quote:
But forcing it down my throats just because the Token Ethnic Minority of the Week needs to complain for social equity? I have been well fed of it in the last 20 years to now having to take it in Pokémon, thanks.
I've forced nothing down your throat, any more than I controlled your hands and made you type a scathing response to this thread. I am suggesting a way to think a little differently; I'm inviting people to listen carefully, and speak carefully. I'm not up in arms about the issue, nor am I in anyone's face and/or throat, because I'm not angry at the people who disagree with me. Your veiled insults - that I'm a self-righteous, whiny, crusader - are very poor form, sir, especially from someone who is clearly very sharp and intelligent.

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Originally Posted by zomgitscathy View Post
Something else worth pointing out is that all Pokemon in your possession are technically slaves. They can be HM Slaves, Battle Slaves, or Sit inside a computer twiddling your thumbs" Slaves. If you were a Pokemon, which would you rather be? At least the HM Slaves get some exercise without having to get bitten, poisoned, burned, electrocuted, tackled, scratched, bitten, and maimed.

HM slaves are living the good life compared to the others.

Household pets and zoo animals live their entire lives in a state of captivity and obedience to their human owners. Sometimes we ask these animals to learn skills or do tricks to assist or amuse us. But we don't call them slaves. We call them pets, and companions, and we call them friends when there is mutual caring between pet and owner.

I should mention, I guess, that Pokemon can never be our friends in that same way because there's no interior space that is sufficiently complex; a pokemon, as far as we know, does not experience comfort, hunger, familiarity, fear, or any other emotion that mammals are capable of experiencing.

But really, pokemon are tough and many enjoy fighting other pokemon, trainer or no. And then there's the timid or non-combative pokemon. Not only do they not hesitate to fight for a trainer that they respect, they appear to enjoy the feeling of helping out however they can. For these reasons, I contest the idea that capture and battle are immoral aspects of the pokemon world.
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  #48    
Old February 10th, 2014, 07:10 PM
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Sorry that you feel like I'm threatening or insulting when I'm merely describing how things are, YZN.

Nowadays with the internet and stuff, when some minor group of people raise to demand changes in every little thing, they create a wave of annoyance that tends to wash over any common sense and practicality for implementation of ideas in people. I've seen it a lot to simply ridiculous degrees, such as semaphore signs with "woman symbols" when the person symbol is intended to represent a verb (walk / stop), not a noun. I wouldn't want such silliness to trench itself into what is Pokémon by the fandom when the canon has already run through enough issues with it as well (Jynx colouration, anyone?).

And good thing that you propose a term. I am just saying I'm hoping it be let grow naturally from usage from its alternatives, instead of it being preached like a sort of One Sane Holy Word that one would have be some sort of stereotypical 70's racist to be against of.
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  #49    
Old February 10th, 2014, 08:47 PM
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I imagine I do sound a bit preachy at times, heheh.

I agree that political correctness can be, and has sometimes been, taken too far. Political correctness for its own sake is too often self-indulgent and too rarely productive or meaningful.

A previous poster asserted that the only way to get rid of the term HM slave would be to ban it from the forums. Such an action is precisely going too far, and besides that it doesn't really even address what I consider to be the important issue here. Such a ban would mainly engender frustration.

What strikes me is that so much of an average person's waking life is filled with unconscious behavior. Simply talking about the usage of the term HM slave is an invitation to think about, to be aware of, the intentionality one's words - or lack thereof. The idea is to create a clearing in which grace and thoughtfulness may arise.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solovino View Post
I think it's just much ado about people wanting to feel morally rightous and politically correct for intellectual circlejerking, which is pretty much the same as much ado about nothing.
If you're going down that route, I'd say this describes your post much better than anything else I've seen in this thread.
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