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  #26    
Old February 8th, 2014 (09:57 AM).
Ultramarine Ultramarine is offline
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In the modern world, i do not believe society sees marriage as important. They'll go ahead and do many things that used to be exclusive to marriage anyway (whether they are religious or not), and a lot of people divorce.

I do believe it should be more important, at least to people of faith. There are many people who consider themselves Catholics who will break many of the rules that Catholicism has laid down. If you're not religious, then fine, do whatever. You don't really have any restrictions when it comes to that.

Marriage is equally important no matter what the gender of the two people involved may be. While most heterosexual couples can reproduce, that is going to happen outside of marriage anyway, so it doesn't give their marriage superiority.
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Old February 9th, 2014 (02:16 PM).
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In the current world (well, at least Norway), marriage is nothing else than a formal assurance that wealth is shared between two partners, as well as it being a tradition.

I'm pretty positive to marriage nevertheless, although it's the wedding that'd matter for me--I just find it beautiful, like a perfect day where you express and confirm your love for your partner with all your friends and family. Not to mention the dresses... boy I want to wear a wedding dress some time.
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  #28    
Old February 16th, 2014 (04:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Togfan:
In the current world (well, at least Norway), marriage is nothing else than a formal assurance that wealth is shared between two partners, as well as it being a tradition.

I'm pretty positive to marriage nevertheless, although it's the wedding that'd matter for me--I just find it beautiful, like a perfect day where you express and confirm your love for your partner with all your friends and family. Not to mention the dresses... boy I want to wear a wedding dress some time.
In regards to your statement saying that marriage is merely a formal assurance to wealth being shared between partners and a tradition, I would think that most people would think marriage to be an assurance of their commitment to loving each other instead. But like you said, that's how they view marriages in Norway. In my opinion though, I think marriage to most people these days is an non-verbal, signed paper agreement proclaiming their commitment to each other. But there are couples who already feel secure enough about their relationships that they don't think such a tradition is necessary.
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  #29    
Old February 16th, 2014 (07:16 PM).
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Hmm... very good question.

Marriage is important, but it's not for everyone. If a couple can have no quabbles & perfect chemistry, then yes, marriage should be a necessity, but for others like me, marriage is nothing more than a shackle that they don't need. I personally only want someone that I can co-exist with - if they want more than that, then they're going to have to look elsewhere. Also, people shouldn't be forced into marriage, as it'll be more likely end up in a divorce. I've no idea how the people that are in cultures that deem marriage mandatory going to be able to get through it if they just can't find that someone they would like to be with.

That aside, I do believe that marriage should be more important in today's society, as it takes two to effectively raise a family.
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  #30    
Old February 16th, 2014 (11:56 PM).
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Do you think marriage is important?

From a personal standpoint as someone who is married, yes, I do believe it is important. It is important in my faith and it is something I hold in high esteem. To me, it is the ultimate declaration of love to someone else, and choosing to make that commitment is something extremely special.

It's not necessarily just about the wedding itself. I had a blast at my wedding, it was a wonderful opportunity to share a special moment in my life with all of the people that mean the most to me. Yes, I wore the fluffy white dress and drank champagne and rocked out to Miley Cyrus and Taylor Swift on the dance floor.

But the best part of the day was knowing that, in front my God, my family and my friends, I had committed myself to spending the rest of my life with my best friend.


Do you feel it should be more or less important?

I think many people these days take marriage far too lightly. It is a huge commitment and is in no way easy. It's not a case of, "I love this person, I'm going to marry them because I love them and it will all work out". It is choosing to love that same person every single day, through the good times and the fights. It's not always rainbows and butterflies but working through the tough stuff is what makes relationships stronger. I think too many people throw in the towel because things get messy and they just don't want to have to deal with it. It makes me incredibly sad to see something that (in my opinion) is so sacred being tossed aside as though it means nothing.


Do you think it is more or less important for same-sex couples compared to heterosexual couples?
I think that it is much more to do with the individual couple than it is to do with sexual orientation. Everyone has different opinions and reasons behind wanting to get married. I do think that the legal benefits should be available to both same-sex and heterosexual couples if they want to get married.


Also, just for fun, my big floofy dress for anyone who's interested.
Spoiler:

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  #31    
Old February 17th, 2014 (01:30 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Fana:
[FONT="Maven Pro"]

Also, just for fun, my big floofy dress for anyone who's interested.
Spoiler:


That's a nice dress. It's "floofy" without being gaudy. You look great!


Do you think marriage is important?
Yes. It's a circumvention of the human inherent affinity toward polygyny; which, creates class hostility if you look at some of my monogamy thread posts.

Further, marriage as an institution can bolster unified social mores, duties, and conventions, which in turn, yields political stability, higher parental/social involvement in education (read my free education post), and, in general, grants support which allows for more efficient system of parenting, on a societal front.

Those that don't have children are supporting a system by affirming social duty through social interactions. Further, infertile and same-sex couples may adopt, which can only help provide a better upbringing for children. Essentially, serving the same functions listed above. The whole "procreation" only argument is, in-part, flawed.

Do you feel it should be more or less important?
More important for reasons listed above.

Do you think it is more or less important for same-sex couples compared to heterosexual couples?


It might be less important for larger percent of same sex couples, only because traditionalist have excluded and condemned homosexuals for quite some time. (which seems counter-intuitive if the goal is to have a nation/society that follow a similar set of duties and mores)

This has changed over the past two decades especially in the United States, to a degree, and is a positive direction in ensuring cohesion among heterosexuals and homosexuals. That is, homosexuals will be more apt to follow social customs and traditions by which bolsters the a stable and efficient social system. Though, self-segregation of the LGBT-"community" is also pervasive and doesn't help forge cultural barriers. But again, this is largely due to negative experiences with certain discriminatory groups, and segregation is comforting.

Like the true father of conservatism (resembling more of a moderate in a contemporary sense), Edmund Burke states,"A state without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation.."

Marriage needs to change in order to strengthen it's utility and preservation. This doesn't only relate to same-sex marriage either.
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  #32    
Old February 25th, 2014 (02:03 AM).
Dominick AKA Dom Dominick AKA Dom is offline
 
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Do you think marriage is important?
Yes. It's a contract within the couple that they love each other. [Or at least it supposed to be like this]

Do you feel it should be more or less important?
Not sure... It's ok as it is.

Do you think it is more or less important for same-sex couples compared to heterosexual couples?
I think they both have the same importance.
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  #33    
Old February 25th, 2014 (06:25 PM). Edited February 27th, 2014 by BadPokemon.
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I am going to skip over most of this thread. Ephesians 5:22-33 states the man and women's job in marriage. Marriage is very important because it is a gift from God and it allows the husband and wife to support each other and raise kids. Divorce is a sin unless one has had sex with someone other than who they married to and they divorce. I mean no offense to homosexuals, but being gay is a sin. I don't hate gay people or anything, so don't get me wrong. If I did hate them and shun them, I would be an ignorant hypocrite because I also sin. A lot. But, in different ways. For those who don't appreciate my Christian point of view, here is a slightly more secular argument. A man and women's body parts match up. A guys and a guys don't and a women's and a women's don't. (I think it is for a reason). So no, I think gay marriage is wrong and not as important. Marriage is meant for a man and a women who love each other to become, in a sense, one flesh. Marriage is clearly important from a Christian point of view.
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  #34    
Old February 25th, 2014 (06:47 PM).
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
I am going to skip over most of this thread. Ephesians 5:22-33 states the man and women's job in marriage. Marriage is very important because it is a gift from God and it allows the husband and wife to support each other and raise kids. Divorce is a sin unless one has had sex with someone other than who they married to and they divorce. I mean no offense to homosexuals, but being gay is a sin. I don't hate gay people or anything, so don't get me wrong. If I did hate them and shun them, I would be an ignorant hypocrite because I also sin. A lot. But, in different ways. For those who don't appreciate my Christian point of view, here is a slightly more secular argument. A man and women's body parts match up. A guys and a guys don't and a women's and a women's don't. (I think it is for a reason). So no, I think gay marriage is wrong and not as important. Marriage is meant for a man and a women who love each other to become, in a sense, one flesh. Marriage is clearly important from a Christian point of view.
I appreciate your honesty, and certainly applaud you for it. However, I do have to bring up a couple of points.

First, more and more biblical scholars are coming out as saying that the passages in the bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality in fact don't.

Secondly, that you call homosexuality a sin is not exactly in line with the teachings of some of the major denominations of Christianity, including the Catholic Church. What they have said is that homosexual act are a sin, not homosexuality itself. Nowhere in the bible have I ever read that people were ever condemned for thinking wrong thoughts. It was only their actions that were judged. A person who is gay who does not engage in any sexual activity with someone of the same sex is not considered to be committing a sin.

I point these out to you not to put down your faith, but as an attempt to perhaps help you open your mind to a different possibility. The truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view, but they do not necessarily reflect reality. Nothing in life is black and white. There are always shades of grey in between.

I should also point out that marriage is not a religious institution, as a mater of historical fact. It originated as a financial arrangement and in actuality involved three people. The father of the girl (for it was often a young girl who was not yet an adult)to be married, and the prospective husband chosen by the girl's father. It was a means to increase one's own wealth and to ensure that any children born would be the husband's. Religion got involved in marriage quite late. The church's role in marriage is limited to performing the ceremony on behalf of the state. It is not the same as holy matrimony which is an entirely religious institution that is not recognized by the state. That is why if you want to get married, you must first apply to the state for the license to do so.
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  #35    
Old February 26th, 2014 (12:45 AM). Edited February 26th, 2014 by The Dark Avenger.
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
I am going to skip over most of this thread. Ephesians 5:22-33 states the man and women's job in marriage. Marriage is very important because it is a gift from God and it allows the husband and wife to support each other and raise kids. Divorce is a sin unless one has had sex with someone other than who they married to and they divorce. I mean no offense to homosexuals, but being gay is a sin. I don't hate gay people or anything, so don't get me wrong. If I did hate them and shun them, I would be an ignorant hypocrite because I also sin. A lot. But, in different ways. For those who don't appreciate my Christian point of view, here is a slightly more secular argument. A man and women's body parts match up. A guys and a guys don't and a women's and a women's don't. (I think it is for a reason). So no, I think gay marriage is wrong and not as important. Marriage is meant for a man and a women who love each other to become, in a sense, one flesh. Marriage is clearly important from a Christian point of view.

One thing to consider. Which would you rather?

1) Homosexuals having children (adopting or otherwise), getting married and being faithful to one another, cementing commitment to children and spouse through marriage, encouraged to practice or not practice a faith (they often don't feel the choice to practice), and ultimately, have homosexuals being engaged in the familial social structure alongside heterosexual spouses and their families.

2) OR; deincentivize homosexuals from having children (many children are currently in Foster Care/orphanages), discourage social cohesion in respect to political and societal conventions and attitudes between heterosexual and homosexuals (needlessly polarized politics), deincentivizing monogamy, strip away reverence to marriage and similar institutions by which mandate long term relationships, which, being a part of is a major indicator of happiness by numerous studies including Pew's 30-year happiness data collection reports, along with higher instances of STD transmission, anxiety, among other issues.

Essentially, what is to be gained or lost by society by public policy. Not a matter of, I believe, give an arbitrary strawman argument, and then ignore the societal impacts of that belief.

What duties and expectations should there be for gay people if not marriage and children?

Would you rather see a reemergence of the 70's, which would happen in part if pro same sex marriage/relationship laws were repealed? (meaning more multiple sex partners, dejection from family, risky behaviors as a result (drugs/alcohol/STD's), compromised mental health, and non-productivity as members of society.)

Or would you prefer that homosexuals, through egalitarian legal changes, continue to have children, develop long-term relationships, reduce the number of Foster children, and be productive and included members of society? (Essentially, do you want homosexuals to be more "moralistic" as dictated by long-withstanding societal conventions and religious doctrine, or less so? After all, it's not an option to convert a homosexual to a heterosexual. Homosexuals will always have sex with other homosexuals; why not encourage for those relationships to be more serious and align more closely with heterosexual counterparts? Further if your actions and beliefs are the cause of greater immorality, again, immorality as dictated by longwithstand conventions religious doctrine, would that not also be a sin, of even greater impact?
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  #36    
Old February 26th, 2014 (04:25 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Alessi_sys:
I appreciate your honesty, and certainly applaud you for it. However, I do have to bring up a couple of points.

First, more and more biblical scholars are coming out as saying that the passages in the bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality in fact don't.

Secondly, that you call homosexuality a sin is not exactly in line with the teachings of some of the major denominations of Christianity, including the Catholic Church. What they have said is that homosexual act are a sin, not homosexuality itself. Nowhere in the bible have I ever read that people were ever condemned for thinking wrong thoughts. It was only their actions that were judged. A person who is gay who does not engage in any sexual activity with someone of the same sex is not considered to be committing a sin.

I point these out to you not to put down your faith, but as an attempt to perhaps help you open your mind to a different possibility. The truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view, but they do not necessarily reflect reality. Nothing in life is black and white. There are always shades of grey in between.

I should also point out that marriage is not a religious institution, as a mater of historical fact. It originated as a financial arrangement and in actuality involved three people. The father of the girl (for it was often a young girl who was not yet an adult)to be married, and the prospective husband chosen by the girl's father. It was a means to increase one's own wealth and to ensure that any children born would be the husband's. Religion got involved in marriage quite late. The church's role in marriage is limited to performing the ceremony on behalf of the state. It is not the same as holy matrimony which is an entirely religious institution that is not recognized by the state. That is why if you want to get married, you must first apply to the state for the license to do so.
Matthew 15:19- For out of the heart comes evil thoughts...
Leviticus 18:22- "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)
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  #37    
Old February 26th, 2014 (04:55 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Matthew 15:19- For out of the heart comes evil thoughts...
Irrelevant?

Quote:
Leviticus 18:22- "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)
This is exactly what you are arguing against. 'Having sex' is being defined as a sin here, not love or affection.

Not that I agree with that either, but at least use your quote correctly, come on.
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  #38    
Old February 26th, 2014 (04:59 AM). Edited February 26th, 2014 by Ivysaur.
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Quote originally posted by Fenneking:
One thing to consider. Which would you rather?

1) Homosexuals having children (adopting or otherwise), getting married and being faithful to one another, cementing commitment to children and spouse through marriage, encouraged to practice or not practice a faith (they often don't feel the choice to practice), and ultimately, have homosexuals being engaged in the familial social structure alongside heterosexual spouses and their families.

2) OR; deincentivize homosexuals from having children (many children are currently in Foster Care/orphanages), discourage social cohesion in respect to political and societal conventions and attitudes between heterosexual and homosexuals (needlessly polarized politics), deincentivizing monogamy, strip away reverence to marriage and similar institutions by which mandate long term relationships, which, being a part of is a major indicator of happiness by numerous studies including Pew's 30-year happiness data collection reports, along with higher instances of STD transmission, anxiety, among other issues.

Essentially, what is to be gained or lost by society by public policy. Not a matter of, I believe, give an arbitrary strawman argument, and then ignore the societal impacts of that belief.

What duties and expectations should there be for gay people if not marriage and children?

Would you rather see a reemergence of the 70's, which would happen in part if pro same sex marriage/relationship laws were repealed? (meaning more multiple sex partners, dejection from family, risky behaviors as a result (drugs/alcohol/STD's), compromised mental health, and non-productivity as members of society.)

Or would you prefer that homosexuals, through egalitarian legal changes, continue to have children, develop long-term relationships, reduce the number of Foster children, and be productive and included members of society? (Essentially, do you want homosexuals to be more "moralistic" as dictated by long-withstanding societal conventions and religious doctrine, or less so? After all, it's not an option to convert a homosexual to a heterosexual. Homosexuals will always have sex with other homosexuals; why not encourage for those relationships to be more serious and align more closely with heterosexual counterparts? Further if your actions and beliefs are the cause of greater immorality, again, immorality as dictated by longwithstand conventions religious doctrine, would that not also be a sin, of even greater impact?
Ok. I would prefer if homosexuals didn't adopt. Please don't take offense! It is a negative influence. If i believe homosexuality is a sin, why would I want more homosexuals in the world? Again, please don't take offense. We were created to have man and women intercourse, not same-sex marriage, etc. if everyone was a homosexual, the world would end. No more babies, no more human race. How are my actions and beliefs causing more immorality? It would be the opposite. We are taught to love each other and have someone to look up to and follow. Others are taught they came from a rock. Seriously, that is the stuff taught in science books. That is a different discussion. We do not force our religion on children. It is our choice to make. I have free will to decide to be a homosexual, murderer, or other bad things.

Quote originally posted by Magic:
Irrelevant?

Not irrelevant. The person said there was nowhere in the bible where it says bad thoughts are a sin.


This is exactly what you are arguing against. 'Having sex' is being defined as a sin here, not love or affection.

Not that I agree with that either, but at least use your quote correctly, come on.
Having sex with another man if you are a man and same with women is what it is saying. That is the sin.
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  #39    
Old February 26th, 2014 (05:08 AM).
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Jesus Christ, BadPokemon I think it's very clear that nobody here agrees with your die-hard literal Bible readings, okay? It's not helping you defend your point at all because nobody agrees with your source material in a literal sense. We dealt with it in previous threads and it just lead to you looking like a fool. I'm not going to go into detail, but I'm going to leave it on a note that there are many inconsistencies in the text. The book is intended as a non-literal text and reading it literally defeats its purpose.

Anyways, marriage? Phsaw. It's not important to me. Marriage is simply a social tradition of courtship. I'd rather have courtship work by instinct, not by social standards. I'll probably never get married. If people are happy with it though then that makes me happy. This is why I support all kind of marriages with all kinds of people, regardless of race, gender, sex, whatever. I even support marriages with more than one person because frankly if that's how you roll that's how you roll. Basically, whatever makes you happy. Everyone has the right to independence of how they want to live their lives.
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  #40    
Old February 26th, 2014 (05:11 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
if everyone was a homosexual, the world would end. No more babies, no more human race.
Reductio ad absurdum. Homosexuality is not "contagious", and the chances of 7 billion people being all homosexual at once are laughable. Homosexuals did exist since humans appeared (and many species of animals are too), and you see how we are still here.

Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Others are taught they came from a rock. Seriously, that is the stuff taught in science books.
No. That's an insane strawman. Science does not say that we came "from a rock". Please try to understand a little bit of what science says before paraphrasing it to the point of parody.
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  #41    
Old February 26th, 2014 (05:18 AM). Edited February 26th, 2014 by Dakotah.
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Matthew 15:19- For out of the heart comes evil thoughts...
Only quoting a part of the bible distorts its message. You are being dishonest by only quoting not just a single passage, but only a part of that passage, here is the passage in full context:

18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

While Jesus does not include same-sex relations in this list, he does, however, include fornication, which is understood to refer to two unmarried individuals engaging in consensual sex. Which means that in those places where same-sex couples are prohibited from getting married, any sexual activity by them could be considered fornication, and condemned according the bible. However, the sin of fornication cannot be applied to those same-sex couple who are married, because they are in fact married and therefore are not engaging in fornication. So I propose that in fact these passages gives greater justification for allowing same-sex couples to get married, not excluding them from the institution.

Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Leviticus 18:22- "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)
This verse is one of the famous six "clobber" passages from the Bible that is often used to condemn same-sex sexual activity, and is probably one of the easiest to counter. I offer you the following link that explains it best (it especially addresses the gross mistranslations offered in the NLT version of the bible):

Homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 - Context and analysis of Leviticus 18:22

Homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 - Translations and interpretations of same-sex behavior in Leviticus 18:22

Some key points to remember here:

1. "Many people tend to select that interpretation that most closely reinforces their initial biases about the Bible and homosexual behavior" This is important because it demonstrates how people interpret what is written in the bible according to their own world view. If they hold general biases against homosexuality, they will invariable interpret the verses in the bible to mean that homosexuality is to be condemned. If they don't hold biases against homosexuality, they generally will interpret the verses in the original context as they are written and not interpret them to condemn homosexuality per se.

2. As demonstrated in the above links there are so many different variations on the translations of the bible. This in of itself makes it irrelevant in modern society. With over 100 different versions of the bible in existence today, to claim that one version or another is the height of arrogance (which ironically is itself considered a sin according to the bible). A quote from the second link illustrates this problem:

Quote:
The LB and NLT translations use the term "homosexuality" That is unusually deceptive for three reasons:
  • The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts. By using the word "homosexuality," the English translation appears to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.
  • The term "homosexuality" has two distinct meanings in English. Sometimes it refers to sexual behavior (what some people do; their actions). Sometimes it relates to sexual orientation (what some people are; their feelings). One reader might conclude from an English translation that homosexual orientation is criticized in the Bible; others might assume that only homosexual behavior is criticized.
  • The word "homosexual" was first used in the very late in 19th century CE. There was no Hebrew word that meant "homosexual." Thus, whenever the word is seen in an English translation of the Bible, one should be wary that the translators might be inserting their own prejudices into the text.
That third bullet point re-enforces the first point I make, that holding general biases against homosexuality will skew how you view things and can in fact greatly distort reality. If you want to be truly honest about homosexuality or any other social issue in society, you first have to rid yourself of any preconceived biases that will cloud your perceptions. These biases were not something we are born with, they are taught to us and they can be unlearned. Sometimes I think that young children are the true humans on this planet and that the rest of us are just programmed automatons carrying out a series of instructions drilled into us by our parents, teachers, church leaders and others who exert influence in our lives. Maybe we should start listening to the children instead of the so-called adults.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:25 AM).
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Can I just ask the irony of a god that is all benevolent but hates people who aren't basically exactly what God wants them to be? God is pretty picky with who he wants to be benevolent to. This is why using strict Bible readings to say gay marriage is wrong and women belong in the kitchen or whatever doesn't work. Because it strips the most basic idea that God is loving when he basically condones homophobia and misogyny. The bible was written for another time.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:29 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Ok. I would prefer if homosexuals didn't adopt. Please don't take offense! It is a negative influence. If i believe homosexuality is a sin, why would I want more homosexuals in the world? Again, please don't take offense. We were created to have man and women intercourse, not same-sex marriage, etc. if everyone was a homosexual, the world would end. No more babies, no more human race. How are my actions and beliefs causing more immorality? It would be the opposite. We are taught to love each other and have someone to look up to and follow. Others are taught they came from a rock. Seriously, that is the stuff taught in science books. That is a different discussion. We do not force our religion on children. It is our choice to make. I have free will to decide to be a homosexual, murderer, or other bad things.
At the moment, in most states in the United States (and to my knowledge most of the rest of the Western world), there's nothing stopping gays from raising children, whether they're married or not. Even if you believe that homosexuality is wrong and that gay parents shouldn't adopt and raise children, since they're going to do it anyway, don't you think it'd be better for them to be able to get married? Forget about the supposed sin that the parents are committing, think about it from the perspective of the child: wouldn't it be better for the child if his parents were able to get married?

Another thing to consider from the perspective of the child, what do you think is better for him/her? To get adopted by a loving couple who happen to be of the same gender, or to stay in foster care or the child welfare system and never have a proper family?

Most of the scientific studies that I've seen show that parenting by same sex couples has no measurable negative effect on child rearing. There was one study that showed that there was a difference, but in that case most of the negative effects were due to the lack of a stable family environment, which is likely due to the fact that their parents weren't legally allowed to get married.

So like I said in my first post, marriage is a good thing in society because it creates a more stable family environment for raising children. This applies to both opposite sex couples and same sex couples.

Here's the studies I was talking about:

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=38cc20ce-7f14-44ea-b4d9-d4cd16d7a269&k=9378

(you need a medscape account for this one, but in case you have one, here it is)
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514477

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:32 AM).
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Quote originally posted by daigonite:
Can I just ask the irony of a god that is all benevolent but hates people who aren't basically exactly what God wants them to be? God is pretty picky with who he wants to be benevolent to. This is why using strict Bible readings to say gay marriage is wrong and women belong in the kitchen or whatever doesn't work. Because it strips the most basic idea that God is loving when he basically condones homophobia and misogyny. The bible was written for another time.
What is more interesting is that there are actually Christians out there who think that God hates his own creations. If homosexuals are born the way they are and that homosexuality isn't a choice (which it isn't), then to condemn homosexuals as being immoral is to in fact condemn God's own creations!
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:35 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Alessi_sys:
What is more interesting is that there are actually Christians out there who think that God hates his own creations. If homosexuals are born the way they are and that homosexuality isn't a choice (which it isn't), then to condemn homosexuals as being immoral is to in fact condemn God's own creations!
In fairness, I don't think BadPokemon was saying that his god hates homosexuals, just that he condemns their behavior and their desires. I'm not agreeing with it, just saying I don't get the impression that that's what he's saying.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:43 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Alessi_sys:
What is more interesting is that there are actually Christians out there who think that God hates his own creations. If homosexuals are born the way they are and that homosexuality isn't a choice (which it isn't), then to condemn homosexuals as being immoral is to in fact condemn God's own creations!
This is an excellent point.

It's suddenly bizarre how if you take something literally that really shouldn't be taken literally (like the Bible) how contradictory it becomes. It's important to remember that some stories in the Bible are several thousand years old, and have not been "retrofitted" for the times. Thus, the ideals written in the Bible show ideals that are not existent nowadays, and considering that the Bible has been scribed and translated by men, it shows that their own prejudices can leak through even if God was the original authour of the text.

Nonetheless, I highly doubt that BadPokemon reads the entire Bible literally since there are many contradictions as mentioned earlier and uses cherry picking to support his own prejudices.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (05:48 AM).
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Y'know, if I ever get married, it will definitely not be in a stereotypical way.

I don't plan on getting married, though. A kickass relationship would do the job just fine.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (11:30 AM).
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Quote originally posted by BadPokemon:
Ok. I would prefer if homosexuals didn't adopt. Please don't take offense! It is a negative influence. If i believe homosexuality is a sin, why would I want more homosexuals in the world? Again, please don't take offense. We were created to have man and women intercourse, not same-sex marriage, etc. if everyone was a homosexual, the world would end. No more babies, no more human race. How are my actions and beliefs causing more immorality? It would be the opposite. We are taught to love each other and have someone to look up to and follow. Others are taught they came from a rock. Seriously, that is the stuff taught in science books. That is a different discussion. We do not force our religion on children. It is our choice to make. I have free will to decide to be a homosexual, murderer, or other bad things.


Having sex with another man if you are a man and same with women is what it is saying. That is the sin.
Again, homosexuals will continue to homosexuals, meaning have sex with homosexuals. Studies show homosexuality, in thought, cannot be converted to heterosexuality. A slew of psychology studies demonstrate that gay parents do not yield more gay children. So this argument that you don't want more homosexuals in the world doesn't make sense. How would denying marriage and adoption abilities increase homosexuality? The rest of your poorly constructed argument rests upon this point. You haven't demonstrated how this policy change in marriage and adoption would increase the homosexual population.

Therefore, with the homosexual population as it stands, why not make choices that improve the millions of other point of morality, again, as dictated by conventional and long-withstanding institutions? Improving the lives of homosexuals and heterosexuals alike.

Your proposition, as I explained earlier, harms all groups, homosexual or not, in a variety of systemic ways. That is greater sin if we are to attempt to quantify:

Same number of homosexuals having sex (list of negative consequences I listed in the other post) < Same number of homosexuals having sex, developing long term relationships, adopting children (abused/beaten/neglected in the Foster Care System), improve relations between religious/nonreligious groups, decrease polarization of politics, ect.

One stance promotes immorality by focusing on one unchangeable factor.

Oh, and a fun fact sheet of Foster Care outcomes, well just a few of them:

Well, have fun arguing:
Foster Care > Homosexual Adoptive Parents (high standards of medical, criminal, financial screening)


Also, we don't have free will for our race, religion, thought processes, anything. We have inherit qualities that interact with an environment. In fact, most people don't choose to not be a christian. We inherit social convention, laws, and customs of our society and operate by those conventions, including religious beliefs. How, for instance, is a Chinese citizen choosing not be a Christian? They have not reified Christian doctrine passed down by parents, and further, they are likely to have been taught Christianity is wrong. So, no one, operates under the control of their own "free will" whether we are talking psychopaths, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, ect, in the choices we make. Social structure and customs, taking into account the natural qualities possessed by a variety of people, is how choices and behaviors develop. We should make policy changes based on this knowledge to improve relationships between genetic qualities (homosexuality) and legal statutes/conventions.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (11:39 AM).
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Can I just ask the question that's on everyone's minds? Who cares if gay guys marry together? How does it affect you if two gay guys (or gals) decide to get married? And if it doesn't affect you, then what right do you have to control something that doesn't affect you, or another person outside of the relationship for that matter, at all?

Why does it matter what some random person that doesn't interact with your life have anything to do with your existence?

On homosexuals adopting it would be really nice if homosexuals were allowed to adopt and essentially rescue children in foster care, because that ♥♥♥♥ is insane and nasty. Everyone I know who was in one had PTSD. There's some crazy ♥♥♥♥ going on in them and I will guarantee you that any perceived issue with homosexuals rearing a child are absolutely overshadowed by the horrors that go on in foster care.
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Old February 26th, 2014 (11:41 AM). Edited February 26th, 2014 by The Dark Avenger.
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Quote originally posted by Alessi_sys:
What is more interesting is that there are actually Christians out there who think that God hates his own creations. If homosexuals are born the way they are and that homosexuality isn't a choice (which it isn't), then to condemn homosexuals as being immoral is to in fact condemn God's own creations!
Well, to be fair, God creates homosexuals, heterosexuals, psychopaths, sociopaths, and the likes of people such as Hilter, Stalin, and Miley Cyrus.

Whether homosexuality is wrong or right because it is or is not natural, is all a bit irreverent.

Though, you make a good point as far as identifying unchangeable factors. Such as homosexuality. It is fixed. It's futile to try to change and unchanging quality.
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