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  #51    
Old July 25th, 2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Keiran View Post
I also think a lot of you are confusing trolls for actual feminists...which explains the undeserved hate Tumblr gets. A lot of those images circulating the internet of "crazy SJW rants" are almost always anti-Feminists. For example, the trending Twitter hashtag about "ending fathers day" was actually a 4chan prank trying to make feminism look bad. These sorts of people are everywhere. The sad thing is, people are so desperate to get their anti-SJW rocks off that they'll gobble it up and believe it - why? Misogyny, most likely.
There are "feminists" that seriously try to push the "women above men" agenda though. A vocal minority, but one that only harms people who actually want so that they give off a bad impression of feminism.
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  #52    
Old July 25th, 2014, 11:02 PM
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There are "feminists" that seriously try to push the "women above men" agenda though. A vocal minority, but one that only harms people who actually want so that they give off a bad impression of feminism.
Okay, I understand that. But those people need to be ignored and not used as a prop for anti-feminist arguments.
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  #53    
Old July 25th, 2014, 11:23 PM
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I'd totally believe you if it weren't the fact that people have threatened to kick the ♥♥♥♥ out of me for being gay. Like you add that part about "defending yourself if need be" but it completely contradicts the earlier because we wouldn't need to defend ourselves if people "truly didn't care as much as we think they did"
So you have personal experience to base your beliefs on, great! I've met one openly gay person in real life and they were the stereotypical high pitched voice drama queen. If I was to export my personal experience to all homosexuals it would lead me to the conclusion that all gays are annoying. Not that they don't have a right to exist, I just don't want anything to do with that particular person. Maybe all homosexuals because as I described in the Personal taste v. bigotry thread if you aren't attacking them it's perfectly acceptable to ignore their existence. If I saw two gay people kissing I would not want to see it and would leave the area. Not attack them or anything, just leave. Is that an acceptable level of homophobia?

Anyway, a bit off track, what I was going to say was that your personal experience should not be the basis for sweeping calls for political action for minorities. I've been threatened to be beaten up too, mostly by bullies that recognise I am weaker than them. Were they mostly straight, white men? Yes. Does that mean all straight white men are like that or that being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is concentrated to a particular group of people? No, but minorities think so and want to base the world off of "the individual that attacked me was white, whites are the problem" rather than "this one dude hurt me but I should only blame him, not the majority of peaceful people that he belongs to."

I'm not going to admit I'm priveleged because the premise that I would abuse said privilege angers me as well as the fact that racist, sexist, heterophobic minorities will attempt to enact legislation that benefits them based on what they were born into. The worst part is they think that it's ok to have a bad mentality to support a good cause because they were "oppressed" in the past. Tit for tat. I could draw comparisons with Israel. Jews were a very persecuted people during WW2 so we gave them power and a country, conveniently ignoring that Palestinians already lived there. People are complaining about Israel's actions but my point is Alex's "levelling the table" mindset, the entire situation exists because we gave unfair treatment to one side in compensation for what Nazi Germany did. Non-minorities carry an unfair stigma of modern day Germany, they get blamed for things that happened before them. Not relative to my WW2 example but imo you just want non-minorities to bend over backwards for you because historical guilt and if we disagree we're ist/ic.

I've mentioned this before but I think socio-economic status is arguably the best determinant of privilege. Are there a disproportionate number of blacks with low SES? Yes. Should I be helping them because they are black or poor? For me it's the second one and minority rights breeds the assumption that whites, men or straight people don't face disadvantage or aren't allowed legislation to deal with it because they are "oppressors".

My final gripe with the terming of minorities is that it expects quotas so we can all be inclusive and politically correct. A woman should get a job because she's the best employee for that position, not because there is a man with more qualifications but the company requires a gender ratio or they are labelled misogynistic. I'm all for merit based recognition rather than simply being born a certain way.

Caller_100, science lady, do you think what men did to you in the lab was socially acceptable? Would management or public opinion been approving of their actions? Definitely not. There are a few bad apples but it's not the fault of a certain gender. I'm actually concerned that women have certain powers over men. You had a basis for reporting those men but women can use the threat of fabricated male abuse and get us in trouble when we've done nothing wrong but nobody would believe us. For me that is an MRA issue of action without merit/evidence based on stereotypes which is why I'm against the power minorities want to hold and expand over policy makers and management.
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  #54    
Old July 25th, 2014, 11:35 PM
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yawn @ most of that but anyway

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If I saw two gay people kissing I would not want to see it and would leave the area. Not attack them or anything, just leave. Is that an acceptable level of homophobia?
Yes and No. I think it's fine not to like the act of kissing another guy, I guess. I mean I don't see what the big deal is (I kiss girls despite being gay), but I think leaving is kind of silly when gay people don't really do that when straight couples kiss. It's like it's expected that they just sort of grow up and deal with it.

Quote:
Anyway, a bit off track, what I was going to say was that your personal experience should not be the basis for sweeping calls for political action for minorities.
The fact I nearly got beat up for no sole reason other than I'm gay is not a reason for political action? Really? Do you think it's acceptable to just be silent in the face of stuff like that?

Quote:
No, but minorities think so and want to base the world off of "the individual that attacked me was white, whites are the problem" rather than "this one dude hurt me but I should only blame him, not the majority of peaceful people that he belongs to."
Nobody thinks that all straights/whites/whatevers will do that. But the fact still lies in that I've never been threatened to be beat up for being gay by ANOTHER GAY PERSON, only straight people. That's the entire point.
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Honestly, Moogles, your posts are so nigh impossible to understand that I cannot help but just scratch my head. I know you’re trying to be clever and cute with your outright… pitiful writing style, but I’ll… try to tackle whatever drivel you said.
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  #55    
Old July 26th, 2014, 12:07 AM
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Nobody thinks that all straights/whites/whatevers will do that. But the fact still lies in that I've never been threatened to be beat up for being gay by ANOTHER GAY PERSON, only straight people. That's the entire point.
Congratulations with the whole "yawn @ most of that" comment. If you can't take other peoples opinions seriously don't expect them to do the same for you.

"Nobody thinks all whites are guilty of assaulting homosexuals but because they threatened to do it to me but gays haven't they're still the problem". I take issue that you blame your grievances on being gay and the other person being straight rather than the other person just being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Sure, hate crimes happen but they shouldn't be treated differently from crimes motivated by other reasons. So no, I don't think because someone got beat up for being a certain way requires a whole political movement to seek reparations. You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement. They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour or b) deal with being attacked for who they were. It can happen to anyone, even me, a straight, white, male. I got bullied and ostracised in school for being who I was, a quiet, weak dork but I can identify that it was just the problem of a few mean people, not their shallow features like skin colour.

As I said before I have a lot of confidence in authority to deal with issues for minorities like any other problem, moreso than if someone who was not a minority claimed they had faced crime or discriminatory behaviour.

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Okay, I understand that. But those people need to be ignored and not used as a prop for anti-feminist arguments.
False trolls can be ignored but not people who genuinely believe extremist material, they do represent you and can be influential if not rebuked by moderates. Personally I have an inherent issue with ALL feminism being one sided but there have been plenty of examples in the world where genuine extremists have risen to power or committed terrorism in attempts to.
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  #56    
Old July 26th, 2014, 12:57 AM
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Congratulations with the whole "yawn @ most of that" comment. If you can't take other peoples opinions seriously don't expect them to do the same for you.
It's not so much "seriously" as much as I'm not interested/have the time to read about ~700 words of stuff that ultimately always seems to miss the point. I've read many of your posts before and the general trend is I find that they're way too wordy and lack substance, sorry.



"Nobody thinks all whites are guilty of assaulting homosexuals but because they threatened to do it to me but gays haven't they're still the problem".
Quote:
I take issue that you blame your grievances on being gay and the other person being straight rather than the other person just being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
I don't... do that. You've been misunderstanding the point. Gay people are aware that not all straight people do that? Or else we wouldn't have straight friends (Which would be tough) but we're also allowed to be WARY since this NEVER happens with gay people.

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Sure, hate crimes happen but they shouldn't be treated differently from crimes motivated by other reasons. So no, I don't think because someone got beat up for being a certain way requires a whole political movement to seek reparations.
speechless really.

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You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement.
Not at all comparable considering that contacts are a thing that exist and that eyeglasses bullying is hardly a thing beyond the playground.

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They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour
You do realize there's been times things like this have been reported by minorities and haven't had it taken seriously because THEY'RE A MINORITY right?

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b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
This is a disgusting mindset to think this is acceptable.

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It can happen to anyone, even me, a straight, white, male. I got bullied and ostracised in school for being who I was, a quiet, weak dork but I can identify that it was just the problem of a few mean people, not their shallow features like skin colour.
Everybody knows this.

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As I said before I have a lot of confidence in authority to deal with issues for minorities like any other problem, moreso than if someone who was not a minority claimed they had faced crime or discriminatory behaviour.
Yeah that sure explains why racial profiling in the states is still a thing.
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Honestly, Moogles, your posts are so nigh impossible to understand that I cannot help but just scratch my head. I know you’re trying to be clever and cute with your outright… pitiful writing style, but I’ll… try to tackle whatever drivel you said.
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  #57    
Old July 26th, 2014, 04:02 AM
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Do you think it's better to fight specifically for the rights of minorities (think lgbt people or poc) or to fight for general, all encompassing "human rights"?
Personal Position:
My viewpoint is that focusing on minority rights is necessary in order to balance human rights as a whole.

Reasoning/Evidence:
Without focusing somewhat on the problems that individual groups face, it can be hard to actually understand what is happening to them. My personal experience, as far as human rights go, is centered around LGBT rights - I know that the people who were on the fence about their feelings needed time and plenty of talks to help understand my point of view, and the differences in my life. I would assume I can extend this need to the nation in general; there are people in my country that are still 'on the fence' about homosexuals as they have little/no actual experience of them, they have real understanding of negatives of identifying as gay, openly.

There is one solid advantage that the LGBT community has over other minorities - the fact it is (more often than not) a hidden attribute. It is not a skin colour or a religious accessory that is so easily spotted. Whilst I do not personally know how it feels, I would imagine that their persecution, and fears relating to this, are even greater.

Assuming that exposure is the key, splitting up human rights into facets and minorities is the only real way to educate and highlight key differences. Whilst human rights should definitely be drilled home too, it doesn't help anyone understand religious traditions, ways of life, or the pain and suffering that group go through.

Some people will always go to the extreme - maybe its a sense of doing whatever it takes to gain their rights they deserve, or maybe it's an individual power trip. What needs to be remembered is that individuals do not normally act for the group. Their actions should not reflect on those doing things peacefully. In some ways, I think our news/journalists are to blame for constantly focusing on the extreme variants of protests. Some channels and newspapers definitely handle extremism and protesting in different ways - recently I would say BBC has done a good job at tackling issues of different groups (for example, they have many documentaries on BB3 aimed at the late-teen generation, which are normally quite informative).

Responses:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogles
Or else we wouldn't have straight friends (Which would be tough) but we're also allowed to be WARY since this NEVER happens with gay people.
Alas, there definitely are homophobic people even in the gay community. There's also (at least, in my community) a slight divide between gays and lesbians - let alone the fact that transgender, which is totally separate IMO, is not 100% accepted amongst us despite being a key part of LGBT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Limerent
You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement. They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour or b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
I feel you have a point, but we should make a distinction here. Bullying at a school level is not the same as bullying at an adult level. Whilst children are learning, they make mistakes and these things happen - of course they should be dealt with swiftly, but they happen. In an adult environment, say a work place, the stakes are a lot higher - racism or homophobia could lead to you not getting a job, missing a promotion, being belittled by your colleagues and actually becomes a crime.

Yes, bullying in school might be considered a crime too, but I believe the scale is different and significant.

Conclusion (tdlr):
Minority rights should eventually lead to equal human rights. Focusing on groups may help educate people on the problems they face, and hopefully realise the injustice themselves. Sometimes, too much focus is put on extremist groups rather than your typical citizen, and some minority groups definitely get overshadowed by LGBT and some forms of racism. Hopefully this is a problem that can be addressed in the future, as a win for one majority group should (in theory) help the others too - paving the way forward to equality.
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  #58    
Old July 26th, 2014, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Limerent View Post
I've met one openly gay person in real life
Read this very carefully. I'm just saying, if you're straight and have only ever met one openly gay person, maybe you're not the best person to talk about how gays should feel or how they should handle the oppression they face?

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Caller_100, science lady, do you think what men did to you in the lab was socially acceptable? Would management or public opinion been approving of their actions? Definitely not. There are a few bad apples but it's not the fault of a certain gender. I'm actually concerned that women have certain powers over men. You had a basis for reporting those men but women can use the threat of fabricated male abuse and get us in trouble when we've done nothing wrong but nobody would believe us. For me that is an MRA issue of action without merit/evidence based on stereotypes which is why I'm against the power minorities want to hold and expand over policy makers and management.
Thank you for this part, though. Thank you for listening to what I was saying and then making a response. I'm fine agreeing to disagree with you - I just don't want my argument misrepresented, so thank you.

I didn't actually ever report anyone - it wasn't like it was anything I couldn't deal with or that I needed to tattle for. =) And I should also say that the majority of men in my classes/workspaces have been wonderful people, and I'm not blaming all males as a group for how a minority of males treat women. When I say that men are inherently privileged, I'm not trying to make a moral statement at all. Most men aren't misogynistic jerks, thank goodness. Some men are, but that's not even a point I'm trying to make. That's a completely separate issue from the issue of privilege (okay, maybe not COMPLETELY, but I think it can be left out for now).

I guess I just want to make the distinction between what you're saying and what I believe. I don't want minorities or any group to have more powers, rights, privileges, respect, you name it, than another. The end goal is equality. But I think that minority rights' groups are important because they give a strong, concentrated voice to people who have historically had their opinions neglected. It's important to listen to those opinions and give them equal weight to the views of the majority (white/men/straight/etc.). If it feels like people are giving more weight to the views of minorities, I think that's mostly because giving any weight at all to the views of minorities is a shift in the status quo. But really, anyone with any sense (and there will always, unfortunately, be extremists on both sides of an argument) really just wants to give everyone's views equal weight, not to put one group above another.
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  #59    
Old July 26th, 2014, 05:37 AM
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But really, anyone with any sense (and there will always, unfortunately, be extremists on both sides of an argument) really just wants to give everyone's views equal weight, not to put one group above another.
Those same people with "any sense" would call themselves egalitarians, IF they had any sense.
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  #60    
Old July 26th, 2014, 06:05 AM
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The rights of all groups must be approached on a case-by-case basis. As has been already established, different groups have differing needs. To deny that this individualization is essential is basically like saying you could take just one medication for everything. Doesn't work like that, different medications are used for different health problems.
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  #61    
Old July 26th, 2014, 06:13 AM
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words
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Originally Posted by Limerent View Post
words
I don't wanna sound childish, but I didn't type up that long post for it to be ignored, and I'd appreciate a reply, even if it is just to bow out (especially if you're both going to continue posting in this thread with points I've already countered).

Also, I find it funny that you (Undertaker, Alex and Limerent) are basically arguing against yourselves. Nobody else in this thread has said that privilege means that you can't have problems or anything of the sort, and yet you still insist on arguing as if we have. Being privileged does not mean that you're a bad person and I never said that in any of my posts, so could all of you PLEASE stop playing the victim card.


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Originally Posted by Limerent View Post
essay
"I'm a straight white cis male and minorities getting angry at oppressors makes me uncomfortable because I'm too up my own ass to admit that maybe I have it a little better than some people". Grow up dude. I don't know why you have such a weird internalised paranoia (I'm still laughing at "minorities can get away with it") but you need to suck it up and take a look at the bigger picture.

Quote:
You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement. They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour or b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
People with glasses don't have history of being persecuted and oppressed the same way poc, lgbt people and women do. Make fun of someone with glasses, you're a bully. Make fun of someone for being gay, you're contributing to and the product of an oppressive system that's existed for generations.

That last part is... awful, honestly. As someone who is gay, being told to "deal with" homophobia is incredibly offensive and I think you should try and open your eyes a little more instead of being blind to the struggles of other people.

Quote:
Is that an acceptable level of homophobia?
No level of homophobia is acceptable.


So what I'm gathering from your posts is that you think that gay and straight people are equal in society? Am I right in saying that? I'd really like a straight answer here.
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  #62    
Old July 26th, 2014, 07:28 AM
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Sorry, but you don't 'fight' for human rights by doing things like telling minorities to "just get over" institutionalized racism. Just about all of the divisiveness in these threads is coming from the anti-SJ folks. No one is telling men how to deal with their issues (in fact most feminists encourage men to speak up about it??), and y'all need to relax when it comes to the policing of how other groups of people deal with theirs. I mean..look at the Men's Rights thread...instead of discussing the issues men face and what can be done about them...the thread was almost entirely about bashing activism...just like every other human rights related thread.

I also think a lot of you are confusing trolls for actual feminists...which explains the undeserved hate Tumblr gets. A lot of those images circulating the internet of "crazy SJW rants" are almost always anti-Feminists. For example, the trending Twitter hashtag about "ending fathers day" was actually a 4chan prank trying to make feminism look bad. These sorts of people are everywhere. The sad thing is, people are so desperate to get their anti-SJW rocks off that they'll gobble it up and believe it - why? Misogyny, most likely.

tldr: You all need to stop being so bitter about what women and other groups of people do to deal with their oppression, and until then no one will take your "human rights" seriously.
Well, that's just the thing. Nobody likes being told what to do. And it's a shame really that on the internet (I will have to use this qualifier over and over again) that this is what activism turns into. Armchair activism with young folk who feel entitled to tell other people what to do. When it comes down to what matters, I don't think most people feel are actually misogynistic or are against the rights of those less privileged. Most of our discussion here is based on what goes on in the internet. It's very meta, but unfortunately hardly applicable to the real world. When was the last time anybody talked about pride parade? Or instances of racism as they've experienced it (I made a thread about that way back in the day)? The discussion here is so abstract and ungrounded in reality, so much that it descends into people criticizing each other because I feel that there's nothing substantial to talk about.

People react to people telling them what to do, what to feel, what kind of language to use, and I feel that's what our "MRAs" here are really reacting against. I imagine that a lot of people, on the internet especially, really don't like the idea of people telling them how to do things. At the end of the day it's just a whole lot of posturing about nothing which is why it is in my opinion that these sort of internet activism things (like the ones you see in social media among friend groups) are useless. I mean, the point of activism is to change beliefs, and if you aren't accomplishing that then something's wrong, right? There's a million ways to be active for the causes you value, but unfortunately on the internet too many people only know how to do one thing too well.

And in addition, there is a whole ♥♥♥♥ton of baiting going on. You will have people say extreme things they will then take back - we even have examples of this in D&D. People on both "sides" of the argument (but like I've said it's an argument about nothing, and most of these people are probably on the same side of the human rights spectrum). People end up overstating whatever it is they believe just to make a point, but the more of that occurs and the more people take it seriously, the less the discussion is based in reality and the less it means. Like, this isn't productive, is it? Any of it? I personally don't care about any one person's opinion, because it doesn't mean anything. In the big picture, what counts is making the cause attractive and easy to understand. That is what activism is to be all about.
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  #63    
Old July 26th, 2014, 07:31 AM
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"I'm a straight white cis male and minorities getting angry at oppressors makes me uncomfortable because I'm too up my own ass to admit that maybe I have it a little better than some people". Grow up dude. I don't know why you have such a weird internalised paranoia (I'm still laughing at "minorities can get away with it") but you need to suck it up and take a look at the bigger picture.
You're fighting an imaginary enemy. Most people do not care that you like men, even less of those people that do care are in government and I'm not going to support your twisted agenda which is inherently biased to minorities. You miss the entire point of human rights, they don't care about your special snowflake status. I am not better off than you at all and the only thing I'm going to support is improving disadvantage for all people regardless of their skin colour, gender or sexuality.


Quote:
Make fun of someone with glasses, you're a bully. Make fun of someone for being gay, you're contributing to and the product of an oppressive system that's existed for generations.
Hate crimes are not more important than other crimes. It doesn't deserve special attention. I don't care if you get hurt in a street robbery or homophobic attack. They deserve the exact same response from the police and judicial system. If it's the same action it deserves the same level of punishment regardless of motive.

99% of the people that existed in "oppressive" time periods are dead. What you want is revenge/special treatment because most of society is not against you. What are the numbers on gay marriage approval in the population? Oh yeah, so oppressed. (not that I think disagreeing with LGBT means you're homophobic.) The labelling of someone as a minority is an offensive blanket term that separates human beings and dismisses the suffering of non-minorities. Anyway, now we have anti-discrimination laws and in most circumstances they are upheld. What you are angry about is media awareness of the ones that are not or when people do not bother to report hate crime.

Quote:
That last part is disgusting and really shows just how ignorant you are. Like I'm honestly speechless.
Perhaps I should have stated that better. Deal with it effectively. and fairly. Stop blaming the cis white man and "oppressive society". It's a few douchebags and what they do is not acceptable to the majority of people. Have you tried filing a police report, a complaint to your workplace ombudsman (not employer) or school administration if you're being discriminated against? I bet you haven't, all you do is scream at the population who aren't responsible for your troubles.


Quote:
No level of homophobia is acceptable.
False. As long as you don't hurt anyone, deny them employment based on irrelevant factors or verbally abuse them you can have whatever opinion you'd like. I am allowed to not like you, or people like you.


Quote:
So what I'm gathering from your posts is that you think that gay and straight people are equal in society? Am I right in saying that? I'd really like a straight answer here.
I don't think sexuality, skin colour or gender is a valid criteria for whether you're well off or not. Try socio-economic status. That can be addressed no matter what you happen to be born as.

Laws shouldn't be based off accommodating people for inconsequential factors like skin colour, sexuality or gender. That's the epitome of discrimination. But nope, you think that's ok because minorities are always oh so oppressed by us evil non-minorities.

Your internet social justice is not indicative of reality and even if it was all "minority rights" are are polar opposites of things that discriminated them in the past.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:45 AM
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False. As long as you don't hurt anyone, deny them employment based on irrelevant factors or verbally abuse them you can have whatever opinion you'd like. I am allowed to not like you, or people like you.
You're talking about what's "allowed", not what's acceptable. In addition, you aren't in a position to tell another person what they find acceptable and unacceptable. What you "can" do is very different from what you "should" do. I can walk up to strangers on the street and tell them that I hate them for no reason at all. However, I wouldn't find that acceptable behavior. A friend can lie to me and tell me they'll meet me somewhere, and then have me go out of my way to meet them and never show up. However, I'd find that behavior unacceptable and there would be a consequence - the loss of my friendship.

You can be homophobic, but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept it, and hopefully most people won't because it's an abhorrent position to stand for. Unfortunately the grim reality is plenty of people will accept it, because our society still espouses a lot of homophobic ideals. Doesn't mean Grey Wind has to accept homophobia though.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:56 AM
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Hate crimes are not more important than other crimes. It doesn't deserve special attention. I don't care if you get hurt in a street robbery or homophobic attack. They deserve the exact same response from the police and judicial system. If it's the same action it deserves the same level of punishment regardless of motive.
Okay, treat them the same in terms of punishments under the law, but the motive still needs to be addressed. If a crime occurred due to homophobia, than obviously homophobia is an issue that needs to be addressed.

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99% of the people that existed in "oppressive" time periods are dead. What you want is revenge/special treatment because most of society is not against you.
We've said this several times: No one wants revenge. No one wants "special" treatment. Just equal treatment. That's what we're arguing for. You're arguing against an argument that no one here is making.

Yes there are anti-discrimination laws. That's obviously a big deal. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people aren't still prejudiced, even if just a little bit. And that little bit builds up.

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Have you tried filing a police report, a complaint to your workplace ombudsman (not employer) or school administration if you're being discriminated against? I bet you haven't, all you do is scream at the population who aren't responsible for your troubles.
We're adults. We expect other adults to take responsibility for their thoughts and actions without always needing to tattle-tale on them.

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False. As long as you don't hurt anyone, deny them employment based on irrelevant factors or verbally abuse them you can have whatever opinion you'd like. I am allowed to not like you, or people like you.
But in the end, if someone dislike someone purely because of their sexuality, that still makes them a terrible person. Nothing you can do about it legally if they're not hurting anyone, but that doesn't make it okay.

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Laws shouldn't be based off accommodating people for inconsequential factors like skin colour, sexuality or gender. That's the epitome of discrimination. But nope, you think that's ok because minorities are always oh so oppressed by us evil non-minorities.
Exactly, laws should treat everybody the same, regardless of skin color, sexuality, or gender. Sometimes they don't (gay marriage, for example), and that's a problem, but the problem extends a lot further than just the law. None of us here have argued for laws that would oppress non-minorities. We've argued that sometimes non-minorities and minorities alike have biases that sometimes make many aspects of life a little or a lot more difficult for minorities.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 09:42 AM
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Okay, treat them the same in terms of punishments under the law, but the motive still needs to be addressed. If a crime occurred due to homophobia, than obviously homophobia is an issue that needs to be addressed.

We've said this several times: No one wants revenge. No one wants "special" treatment. Just equal treatment. That's what we're arguing for. You're arguing against an argument that no one here is making.
Legally you are treated equally. Apart from gay marriage, which I oppose on the grounds that relationships shouldn't require state recognition and should be no different than two people of any creed signing a contract to own a property.

Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory. If you want to talk about the very loose ideas of social treatment I don't think it's ethical to take action besides non-discriminatory human rights campaigns that already occur. Blanket statements that "all gays are treated worse off than straights" are just individual opinion really, you can't prove it and it's not fair to the straight people that get treated like ♥♥♥♥ to not be recognised. That's why I'm for human rights that help people that get treated like ♥♥♥♥ regardless of their status.

At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:20 AM
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Legally you are treated equally. Apart from gay marriage, which I oppose on the grounds that relationships shouldn't require state recognition and should be no different than two people of any creed signing a contract to own a property.
Wait, wait. You oppose gay marriage because... you think everyone has the right to be in a relationship? I'm confused.

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Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
Not if the minorities are already facing increased discrimination. Then it's just equalizing the playing field.

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Blanket statements that "all gays are treated worse off than straights" are just individual opinion really
Again, not what we're saying. We're saying straight people don't face discrimination for being straight, not that being straight automatically makes every aspect of your life sunshine and gumdrops.

I'm really trying to explain this the best I can. But what keeps happening is that Grey Wind and I are telling you about something that we experience every day of our lives and you're denying that it exists. How can you deny that something that people actually experience isn't real? It's like if I told you I have a dog and you told me I didn't. Um, yes I do? It's right there.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:43 AM
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Old July 26th, 2014, 01:02 PM
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Alas, there definitely are homophobic people even in the gay community. There's also (at least, in my community) a slight divide between gays and lesbians - let alone the fact that transgender, which is totally separate IMO, is not 100% accepted amongst us despite being a key part of LGBT.
That's an entirely different can of worms though, and isn't what I was saying. Like you're not wrong because the gay community has a lot of problems but the fact is if I wouldn't fear negative reaction for coming out to a gay man/lesbian woman rather than a straight person.

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Legally you are treated equally. Apart from gay marriage, which I oppose on the grounds that relationships shouldn't require state recognition and should be no different than two people of any creed signing a contract to own a property.
Nobody cares about your opinion on marriage. The fact is people are still unequal about it. Like even if you hate marriage you can't deny the legal benefits which come from it?

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Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
I didn't realize legisliation making sure that people can't get fired on the mere SUSPICION that they're gay was discrimination. The entire point is to... eliminate discrimination?

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At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
At the very least you know many people who consider themselves minorities don't respect your views.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 02:05 PM
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Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
I cannot BELIEVE Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves....could he be any more racist?


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At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
Recognizing diversity is not discrimination. Diversity should be celebrated. Just because you're a white male that has never had to think twice about how some aspect of yourself may cause societal harm to you, doesn't mean everyone can easily ignore such a thing. Colorblindness is just as bas as racism. Labels are only bad when they're used to discriminate, but you need to realize that something is not discriminatory because it doesn't benefit white males.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 02:34 PM
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First off, cut the ♥♥♥♥ing privilege crap the hell out. You do not automatically have "privilege" just because you are a white male.
Yes, you do.

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There's a lot of things that modify "privilege". Also, privilege is non quantifiable, non comparable, non measurable and non predictable. It's not a ♥♥♥♥ing stat in a video game, stop treating it like one.
We're not trying to do this? I think we've been pretty clear that privilege based on one's gender/race/sexuality/whatever is only one factor out of many that determines a person's experiences in life.

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[b]You idiots telling him to go and "check his privilege" or whatever are just as bad as him saying that he is annoyed by homosexuals.
No one ever told anyone to "check their privilege." Where did you see that? And don't call me an idiot, thanks. You don't know me.

And I'm pretty sure that me pointing out a basic reality of how the world works to someone isn't "bad" at all, and certainly isn't on the level of homophobia.

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THIRD, and most jarringly, I have never seen a group of idiots (outside of tumblr) show so little disrespect for people's opinion. YES, I DISAGREE WITH LIMMERENT. But how do I express this level of disagreement?[/i]
I've been trying to be as polite and respectful as possible without compromising my opinions. I haven't been insulting anyone, I haven't been flaming anyone, I haven't cursed anybody out. I really don't think you have any right to be disgusted by how I've been acting.

Like you said, you can express that you don't like the way this conversation is going (and I don't either - I wish it was more discussion and less flaming) without needing to curse at us and insult people.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude here. But I am going to stand up for myself just a little. I don't think any of our arguments against Limerent or Alex or Undertaker have been in any way out of line.
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  #72    
Old July 26th, 2014, 02:55 PM
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At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
People refusing to talk about how they're being discriminated against because they don't want to "make it about race/gender/sexuality" only support the people doing the discriminating, allowing them to continue without consequence.

What it comes down to is you, as a person who doesn't experience any of this kind of discrimination, have decided that it doesn't exist or it's not "serious" enough to talk about. When people speak about privilege, this is what they mean - you are not in any position to talk about what discrimination exists because you do not experience it, but you have decided that you are in that position and have formed a position that actively fights against those who are discriminated against. You've never had to worry that if you ask a guy from the party you went to to walk you home, he might rape you, but if you don't ask him you might get raped and then told that you shouldn't have been alone. You've never had to worry that if you need help on the street and knock on a door, you'll get shot. You've never had to worry that socialization is influencing how you interact with people and thus harming your chances at moving forward in life. Therefore, you've decided these things don't exist. And when people who experience them tell you they exist, you ignore them and repeat that they don't exist and everyone should just be quiet about the discrimination they face because they're "causing" it by pointing it out and trying to fix it. It's a poster child example of being so privileged that you're unable to understand the experiences of anyone else.

Fortunately for you, the best part of privilege is you can walk away and not have to worry about it. Everyone else gets to walk away and deal with this discrimination every day for the rest of their lives, but lucky you gets to bow out after telling everyone it's not a real thing and move on as if nothing happened.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:07 PM
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People refusing to talk about how they're being discriminated against because they don't want to "make it about race/gender/sexuality" only support the people doing the discriminating, allowing them to continue without consequence.

What it comes down to is you, as a person who doesn't experience any of this kind of discrimination, have decided that it doesn't exist or it's not "serious" enough to talk about. When people speak about privilege, this is what they mean - you are not in any position to talk about what discrimination exists because you do not experience it, but you have decided that you are in that position and have formed a position that actively fights against those who are discriminated against. You've never had to worry that if you ask a guy from the party you went to to walk you home, he might rape you, but if you don't ask him you might get raped and then told that you shouldn't have been alone. You've never had to worry that if you need help on the street and knock on a door, you'll get shot. You've never had to worry that socialization is influencing how you interact with people and thus harming your chances at moving forward in life. Therefore, you've decided these things don't exist. And when people who experience them tell you they exist, you ignore them and repeat that they don't exist and everyone should just be quiet about the discrimination they face because they're "causing" it by pointing it out and trying to fix it. It's a poster child example of being so privileged that you're unable to understand the experiences of anyone else.

Fortunately for you, the best part of privilege is you can walk away and not have to worry about it. Everyone else gets to walk away and deal with this discrimination every day for the rest of their lives, but lucky you gets to bow out after telling everyone it's not a real thing and move on as if nothing happened.
I didn't say disadvantage wasn't a real thing, just that it's stupid to universally generalise that all people of minority status face it whilst white, straight men are somehow immune to being judged for who they are. I'm done, human rights are a worthy cause to me, not dividing the populace into categories of "privilege".
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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:42 PM
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I don't think there's anything wrong with a particular group fighting for their own rights, but I can understand where the objections to this line of reasons are coming from. I think there is a danger of seeing your own group's rights as having priority over the rights of the people outside your group. Not saying that this applies to everyone, but there's definitely people like that out there.

I think our ultimate goal should be human rights, and LGBT rights, women's rights, minority rights, etc. are simply the steps we need to take to reach that goal.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 04:33 AM
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Why can't we all be egalitarians? I'm sick of seeing "whatever's rights" because the reality is that it's missing the point. There are discrepancies. Men have problems, women have problems, everyone else has problems, these problems have a root cause rooted in our own culture and ignorance. If we take a step back and instead of saying "BUT WOMYN!!!1 PRIVILEGE derpderp!!11" and realize that a root problem harms everyone then maybe we would make progress.

That is unlikely to happen looking at the state of the internet's opinion on this.

And perhaps, what is most depressing, is that so many people are focused on an individuals problems (oftentimes problems that they personally face) that the root problem that causes problems for everyone is shrugged underneath.

So yes, I do think that minority problems are important, because they are often rooted in problems with how we view ourselves, and it afflicts everyone. It just hurts other people more noticably.
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