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JX Valentine
Your aquatic overlord
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Ah. Yeah, of the prequels, I only saw Episode III in its entirety, so that's all I really knew. XD
Guidelines, not rules, I think. While a lot of the traits brought up in the standard Mary Sue Litmus Test are traits that should be setting off alarms, a lot of people don't realize that:
1. Having only a couple of those traits does not make you a Mary Sue. Okay, saying yes to a large number of those questions tend to mean you do have a Mary Sue, but, you know, alarms shouldn't be blaring if your character has green hair and nothing else that would make you say yes to other questions on the test. (Especially in this fandom.) One (or a handful of) trait(s) does not a Mary Sue make.
Basically, a Sue is a character that ends up being over-the-top, either because the character isn't developed and therefore relies on uber special skills and powers that bend reality and give the author an excuse to rape the characters around her because the author thinks that's more fascinating than, you know, an actual personality or because the character upstages all canon characters present (who may or may not be in character themselves) because she was created to be uber special for one reason or another. So, yes, you can have a background character with green hair, a decent amount of experience under her belt, and maybe Brock's affections as long as you develop her as a character, not as a sparkly being who bends reality, canon, and everything else in the world to get her way.
2. Dodging the test can still create a Mary Sue (or, well, an Anti-Sue, which really isn't that much better). As stated above, a Sue is all about how the character works in the story. If reality is warped to let her get her way and canon characters' personalities are raped whenever she waltzes on the scene, she can be a mouse-brown-haired girl with no friends and no special powers, and she's still either a Sue or as bad as one.
Of course, Sue Litmus Tests have their benefits. They're usually good to point you in the right direction because, as I've said before, they're usually guidelines that tell you what most people look for in terms of general traits to determine what character is and isn't a Sue. And yes, saying yes to all or most of the questions, regardless of how you work the character into a story, tends to be a Sue. So, once you figure out what traits are Sueish, you can figure out how to create a very basic character. Of course, from there, you'll need to actually develop the character (that is, make it live on the page by giving it an actual personality and actual conflicts that it needs to go through -- preferably not the uber angsty rape, death, murder, melodrama stuff) in order to actually avoid a Sue.
Long story short, Litmus Tests = very basic guidelines, like a foundation that you can use to build on. It doesn't mean that a character with one or two traits from the test will still be a Sue, and it doesn't mean that a character with only one or two traits from the test won't be a Sue, if that makes sense. It's just a resource.
Orange_Flaaffy
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The thing is many people have different views about what is a true mary sue. I have seen some reviewers who see a OC, any OC, that is basically good looking and well liked, does not twist the world around them or have any powers not common to the sort of creature they are (human/pokemon/pokemorph etc) and they call them a mary sue. (Keep in mind that most of the fics I have seen reviewed as such were often totally OC fics set in the pokemon world, so the characters were not even stealing the spotlight from canon ones because the stories had simply nothing to do with them ;))
When a reviewer gets that picky about things I think it is best to take what they say with a grain of salt.
IMHO many of those types of reviewers often have only one or two types of OC characters that they like and will label anything that does not exactly match their mindset as a sueism :P
When a reviewer gets that picky about things I think it is best to take what they say with a grain of salt.
IMHO many of those types of reviewers often have only one or two types of OC characters that they like and will label anything that does not exactly match their mindset as a sueism :P
This is probably my strangest avatar to date. O.o Should I change it?
Have you ever created a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu animal/fakemon? And did you incuperate it into your writing?
Probably, knowing myself.
In animals, I've made one that was extrememely powerful, top of the food chain, adapts to any enviornment, is far from extinction, and is friendly. It was also a dragon. And it was for a writing assignment, too. xD On the writing assesment scale, I made a four, so it's all good. ;D
In fakemon, I've made(when I was seven) and Eveelution for each type....and...ummm..well, they weren't the best. And the grass type...far from the Leafeon we know today, Vineon was veryhostile. Iceon was...fat and pointy. Scareon...was an ugly dog-ghost with a ghostly udder. And Anchienteon was...a Mary-Sue fakemon. It was more powerful than Mewtwo. X.x But, none were used in writing.
Have you ever created a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu animal/fakemon? And did you incuperate it into your writing?
Probably, knowing myself.
In animals, I've made one that was extrememely powerful, top of the food chain, adapts to any enviornment, is far from extinction, and is friendly. It was also a dragon. And it was for a writing assignment, too. xD On the writing assesment scale, I made a four, so it's all good. ;D
In fakemon, I've made(when I was seven) and Eveelution for each type....and...ummm..well, they weren't the best. And the grass type...far from the Leafeon we know today, Vineon was veryhostile. Iceon was...fat and pointy. Scareon...was an ugly dog-ghost with a ghostly udder. And Anchienteon was...a Mary-Sue fakemon. It was more powerful than Mewtwo. X.x But, none were used in writing.
JX Valentine
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Actually, it's probably more along the lines that they're inexperienced reviewers who don't fully understand the difference between what is and isn't a Mary Sue but want to pretend that they're experienced reviewers who do. Otherwise, yes, that's pretty much my comment -- that not all characters who have X list of traits are Mary Sues and that not all characters who don't are guaranteed developed characters, but a number of reviewers don't understand that determining a Mary Sue lies in how developed she is and what she does, rather than what traits she has.
Out of curiosity, though, what did they cite as being their reasons for calling OCs Mary Sues? Just a few examples off the top of your head. I don't want you to go scouring forums to find them.
Orange_Flaaffy
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Something about all OCs just being self-inserts of the author at heart or the like :\.
But I think writing in itself is a reflection of the writers mind so I don't know what to really say against that :P.
But I think writing in itself is a reflection of the writers mind so I don't know what to really say against that :P.
JX Valentine
Your aquatic overlord
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I like it. *thumbs up*
As in, uber-powered Pokemon that is essentially a Mary Sue in a Pokemon body? Certainly not. *covers up the main baddie of Warp Series and whistles innocently*
...So does this mean I'm a genderqueer naive, apathetic maso-- Oh wait. I am.
Seriously, though, uh, no. Not even a majority of them, even in this fandom (whose canon practically encourages wish fulfillment).
And even then, self-insertions don't necessarily mean Mary Sues. It's perfectly possible to have a character who is a self-insert not be a Mary Sue and vice versa. It's just that a number of authors tend to make themselves become Mary Sues because of, again, their desire for wish fulfillment in fanfiction.
txteclipse
The Last
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I hate to say it, but that guy ruined Star Wars ;; (actually, Jar Jar was worse, now that I think about it)
So I would say change it, but I'm a bit biased in that regard.
As for the Litmus Test thingses, I have mixed feelings for them. They can steer people away from making Mary-Sues, but they also verge on the realm of "paralysis of analysis." If you over-think your characters, they're either going to be a) unrealistic to the extreme, b) completely weird, or c) someone nobody can relate to (or a mix of all of the above). If I do something that's been done before, I try not to fret. In my fic, the MC's brother has died at the start, people have weird hair, people's eyes change colors, and some legendaries team up with "unworthy" people. As long as I have a good reason for these (and except for the hair one, they all actually play an integral part in the story), then I think I can use as many "tropes" as I see fit. It really just comes down to this: if the story is good, has good explanations for everything (little or no "I just decided to have that happen because it's been used by so many great authors and will speed me to success and fame among my peers"), and actually has a point, then I think it's fine.
Gummy
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How do you plan a story? Do you make an outline, etc., or does it just come to you as you write?
I have dreams about them O_O. Or at least, that was the case for Mission Pokemon, and that didn't turn out so well, did it? As for my newest fic, I thought up the plot over a couple of months during my writing hiatus. I find it good to think up the plots for your fic, as you're so anxious to right a certain scene that you most likely won't quit.
I have dreams about them O_O. Or at least, that was the case for Mission Pokemon, and that didn't turn out so well, did it? As for my newest fic, I thought up the plot over a couple of months during my writing hiatus. I find it good to think up the plots for your fic, as you're so anxious to right a certain scene that you most likely won't quit.
Orange_Flaaffy
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Other thinking any part of a story can be trouble. Even if you don't end up ruining your characters with it there is always the risk of getting so caught up in planning that not much actual story gets written.
If anyone has every read Watership Down I heard its author almost was victim to this, often called the world building disease...
If anyone has every read Watership Down I heard its author almost was victim to this, often called the world building disease...
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Mary-sue Litmus Tests: What is your general opinion?
I did a couple of those things for my characters Damus from "Heart of the Sea" and Key from a fic I quit last year. It's so weird as one is resulted as boderline Gary Sue and one is resulted as anit-sue. XD
My opinion is pretty much it's a good resource to make sure your character is not over the top if you're a beginning writer and not sure how to write a good character. At the end though, like everyone else said, the story will come down to not only your character's personality but also how well that character develops. I would actually rather see a character that has a couple Mary Sue traits and developed than a character that doesn't have it and is not developed. :)
Another thing is ditto on what txteclipse said. After I tried changing Key's personality because of the test, the story and Key herself...didn't went so well. ^^;
I did a couple of those things for my characters Damus from "Heart of the Sea" and Key from a fic I quit last year. It's so weird as one is resulted as boderline Gary Sue and one is resulted as anit-sue. XD
My opinion is pretty much it's a good resource to make sure your character is not over the top if you're a beginning writer and not sure how to write a good character. At the end though, like everyone else said, the story will come down to not only your character's personality but also how well that character develops. I would actually rather see a character that has a couple Mary Sue traits and developed than a character that doesn't have it and is not developed. :)
Another thing is ditto on what txteclipse said. After I tried changing Key's personality because of the test, the story and Key herself...didn't went so well. ^^;
Gummy
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Have you ever created a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu animal/fakemon? And did you incuperate it into your writing?
Sadly, yes. In fact, there were two in the same fic XD. The parts they played could really have been played by ANY other Pokemon, but I just felt the need to use Fakemon. If, and when I rewrite that fic, I will most certainly leave them out.
Sadly, yes. In fact, there were two in the same fic XD. The parts they played could really have been played by ANY other Pokemon, but I just felt the need to use Fakemon. If, and when I rewrite that fic, I will most certainly leave them out.
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Mary-sue Litmus Tests: What is your general opinion?
As others have said, they are best used as guidelines. For instance, one of the questions is "Does your character have any special creature? (Ignore if this is the norm of the world)". Your character isn't a Sue just because of a few simple qualities, especially if those qualities are normal for the world that they live in.
In other words, I use them with a grain of salt.
Have you ever created a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu animal/fakemon? And did you incuperate it into your writing?
No.
As others have said, they are best used as guidelines. For instance, one of the questions is "Does your character have any special creature? (Ignore if this is the norm of the world)". Your character isn't a Sue just because of a few simple qualities, especially if those qualities are normal for the world that they live in.
In other words, I use them with a grain of salt.
Have you ever created a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu animal/fakemon? And did you incuperate it into your writing?
No.
Hmmm...anyone know what those metal things that go under dresses are? Back in the olden days when girls only wore dresses, there was something under them that made them stand out. I can't remember what they're called. >.<
Scarlet Weather
The Game is Afoot!
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Barrel hoops? I always thought they were just called "hoops" or something and that's where the term "Hoop Skirt" came from, but I'm probably completely wrong. 0.o
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But ACC-kun is right.
That's what you're looking for, since there's no other name for it. And the image search shows all the dresses formed in a pyramid shape.
*pets Google*
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If anyone gives the story newly posted in the Bin a super special review, I might be willing to, you know, use the Bin again.
That's what you're looking for, since there's no other name for it. And the image search shows all the dresses formed in a pyramid shape.
*pets Google*
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If anyone gives the story newly posted in the Bin a super special review, I might be willing to, you know, use the Bin again.
EmeraldSky
Make the Colors in the Sky!
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I'm writing a one shot that expands on the scene in one episode of young Ash and young Gary in a movie theater by having Gary reminisce about that matinee, and I need to know how I'm doing at writing fron Gary's perpective.
So far, this is what I have:
So far, this is what I have:
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