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  #2926    
Old November 4th, 2015 (6:05 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machomuu View Post
The Fate series, in particular, comes to mind. As for movies? Sure, Blu-Rays and DVDs, among other things. Especially if you want to reach a certain ending. Oreimo too, to some extent.
I'm still confused because you said it as if the movies themselves had internal functions that changed the outcome. Having an option for video settings isn't interactive in the same way a video game is, if that's what you're trying to say.

I'll admit that I don't know much about Fate or VNs in general, but I'm going to assume that the vast majority of them have some sort of fail state, either in the form of midgame Game Overs or simply bad ends. Flowchart gameplay hardly makes for an enthralling experience, but the choice is there.

Quote:
VN's more often than not have Auto functions and can have as many as one meaningful "choice" in their entirety, if any at all. Hell, even the more choice-based games can have a timer and if you don't do anything, the story progresses. Steins;Gate comes to mind, and I can't well see people taking well to the idea that that's not a VN. So really, I don't think anything about VNs inherently makes input necessary, it's definitely a case-by-case thing.
The choice is what matters though. Even if Stein;s Gate can reach the ending without any input from the player after clicking "New Game", the option of interrupting the flow of the game and giving you a choice in the outcome is what makes it a game. I hate Quick Time Events as a whole and think they're better off not existing, but that doesn't make it any less gameplay.

Quote:
I dunno about that. Sure, you pressed a button in the game, but there had to be some sort of interaction in opting to watch the anime as well. You not only had to make the choice, but you also had to make it happen, which, more likely than not, actually requires more interaction than just clicking a single key.
But those are from external actions. Video games are defined by their level of interactivity within their own confines.

Quote:
Semantically, of course. If we were to talk functionally, it'd be about the same.
It's not really semantics because the in-game interaction does make the difference between a video game and a movie, and that interactive element is why many people don't consider video games art. That's not to say interactivity is inherently a good thing, because some games misuse the level of interactivity or even cut it down to a minimum in order to be seen as pretentious tripe(The Graveyard).

Anyways, even if a choice doesn't change the outcome of the game, it sometimes matters due to the message that it delivers. For an example, NieR has a decision around the middle of the game that goes as such:
A) Petrify one of the main characters in the game in order to contain a monster
B)Don't petrify her, and "get annihilated"(it's actually a But Thou Must situation)
Even if you're forced to make one decision and the rest of the game is unchanged, the choice exists to evoke an emotion. Not every choice has to matter.

Sorry if it sounds a little aimless and rambling, I have a hard time creating a proper flow when responding to a message quote by quote.


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  #2927    
Old November 4th, 2015 (10:10 AM).
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machomuu machomuu is online now
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Hm...I think we may be on different sides of the same track, here.
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Originally Posted by Luck View Post
I'm still confused because you said it as if the movies themselves had internal functions that changed the outcome. Having an option for video settings isn't interactive in the same way a video game is, if that's what you're trying to say.
That's not quite what I was getting at there. If you put a Blu-Ray in, you come to a menu. A menu is inherently interactive, but let's disregard that and say that the movie starts playing automatically. There's still a menu, but when you put the disc in the movie just plays. But let's say you don't want the regular ending. Let's say you want the alternate ending. For that, you have to (possibly stop), navigate the menu, and pick it. In some cases, it has to be unlocked. It's interactive in a pretty similar way.

Let's rear back around to Steins;Gate. The VN doesn't stop for decisions in that VN, and the actual decisions are based around the reader pushing a button or pushing nothing. Either way, you get an ending (with no game overs). It's quite similar to the Blu-Ray- but my point there wasn't exactly the interactivity (which is part of why I call it semantics later).

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Originally Posted by Luck View Post
I'll admit that I don't know much about Fate or VNs in general, but I'm going to assume that the vast majority of them have some sort of fail state, either in the form of midgame Game Overs or simply bad ends. Flowchart gameplay hardly makes for an enthralling experience, but the choice is there.
That isn't exactly what I wa- well, no, there's no real game over. Just different ends.

But that isn't really what I was getting at. I wasn't arguing the lack of choice- quite the opposite, actually. I was saying that there is choice in choosing an ending, regardless of whether you're playing a game, reading a VN, watching a movie, or reading a book, and as a result, merely having choice isn't what makes the VN a VN. It's not an inherent trait.

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Originally Posted by Luck View Post
The choice is what matters though. Even if Stein;s Gate can reach the ending without any input from the player after clicking "New Game", the option of interrupting the flow of the game and giving you a choice in the outcome is what makes it a game. I hate Quick Time Events as a whole and think they're better off not existing, but that doesn't make it any less gameplay.
Huh? My argument was that Steins;Gate is no less of a game because of the fact that you don't have to interact with it. Hell, in this link I used it as an example.


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Originally Posted by Luck View Post
But those are from external actions. Video games are defined by their level of interactivity within their own confines.

It's not really semantics because the in-game interaction does make the difference between a video game and a movie, and that interactive element is why many people don't consider video games art. That's not to say interactivity is inherently a good thing, because some games misuse the level of interactivity or even cut it down to a minimum in order to be seen as pretentious tripe(The Graveyard).

Anyways, even if a choice doesn't change the outcome of the game, it sometimes matters due to the message that it delivers. For an example, NieR has a decision around the middle of the game that goes as such:
A) Petrify one of the main characters in the game in order to contain a monster
B)Don't petrify her, and "get annihilated"(it's actually a But Thou Must situation)
Even if you're forced to make one decision and the rest of the game is unchanged, the choice exists to evoke an emotion. Not every choice has to matter.

Sorry if it sounds a little aimless and rambling, I have a hard time creating a proper flow when responding to a message quote by quote.
Rambling? Please, have you read my posts? This is concise and brief by comparison.

But to answer all of this at once, I'll just kind of go back to the very first statement of the post. At no point was I arguing what a video game was and the importance of choice in terms of what defines a game. I've been over that in the link I posted above.

The point of all of this was to deny the idea that VNs without choice aren't VNs at all, but are instead movies. Though them being called movies wasn't really all that important, that was just likening them to the same medium as the various TV media. The reason I likened them to movies (and briefly, games and books) in the way of choice was to show that they can be very, very similar, and as a result, VNs can't simply be defined by the fact that the reader has choice. Saying that would be the same as saying that Steins;Gate without choice wouldn't be a visual novel. This being in spite of the fact that it has all of the other elements of a visual novel- the notion's just silly.

But really, games weren't inherently a part of the discussion. Or, rather, they were- since there was another reason I mentioned choice. Tangent:
Spoiler:
Originally, this was brought up because we were talking about Telltale games (and Life is Strange, and Satoshi mentioned that VNs were choice-driven, as the choices there actually mean something, whereas the choices in Telltale games don't matter at all.

I didn't bring this up then, but what I was going to say is that, apart from many VNs having rather arbitrary player decisions, Telltale Decisions do matter. One game asserts that your actions change the story, and that's false advertisement since they don't, but it does allow you to play characters in different ways, add/remove certain characters from the story, and ultimately make your experience unique. Regardless of whether the story's the same, you can be led to different endings, different allies/enemies, different romantic partners, and different short-term situations. They have effects and they matter, and on that same note they shape your character- arguably more than a great number of other choice-based games (especially ones that boast alignment bars). The game isn't necessarily shaped by choice or the illusion of it, but you're experience is.

And that's why I bring up routes. Routes lead you to a different ending, yeah? And you make a choice that, narratively, has an effect on the story. This is why the choices aren't 1:1, if you make a choice in a route-based VN, you're choosing an ending (or making an arbitrary decision), and if you make a choice in a Telltale game or...hell, a dialogue decision in a game like Persona, you're making a decision that will likely eventually converge (which can include arbitrary ones) or have lasting effects, but you're still telling the same story. Or choosing an ending. But, put simply, looking at a single playthrough (since the illusion of choice is a major tool in Telltale and, when experienced in a single playthrough, from an individual standpoint can be synonymous with "choice"), how can someone say that, based only on how they go about things, one choice "matters" more than the other? Sure, in this one VN one action causes everyone to die while the other causes everyone to die less, but did your action have an effect on the world or did the world change to fit the story? And does it matter more or less on that merit? Similarly, in Telltale, one action saves you and kills your friend, while the other just saves you. Now, granted, the friend was going to be killed off later, but while they're alive you not only learn more about the lore, but you also gain a deeper interest in that character, so it hurts more when they die. Did that choice not matter? Because you did get something out of it. Something that would have changed your perspective or even motivation as far as the playthrough was concerned. And if so, where do we draw the line on this idea of whether choices matter or not? What does "matter" really even mean, here?

^ There's rambling for you

But to close this, I'll basically say that what you're saying on most of this isn't completely far off from what I actually think. Or thought when I wrote that post regarding what a game is at least. I'm not going to go into what's changed about my opinion since then, but this video makes a nice, short little tl;dr to the whole thing:
Spoiler:


We weren't arguing the same things or even really about the same topics, which is why what counted as semantics in my point didn't count as so in your counter-y'know, different sides of the same track.
  #2928    
Old November 9th, 2015 (3:08 PM).
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CarcharOdin CarcharOdin is offline
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I think I might be a little too cynical of the Zelda fandom. I don't know, what do you guys think:

  #2929    
Old November 10th, 2015 (10:24 AM).
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TiTS SC has reached EU PSN, now no one has any reason to not play it.
Play it, play it right now.
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  #2930    
Old November 10th, 2015 (10:49 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satoshi Ookami View Post
TiTS SC has reached EU PSN, now no one has any reason to not play it.
Play it, play it right now.
And better, TitS 3rd Evolution was just announced today.

This has been a great year for The Legend of Heroes fans. Thinking I might get into it myself, one of these days, because I haven't met a single fan of the game who didn't absolutely love it.
  #2931    
Old November 10th, 2015 (11:08 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machomuu View Post
And better, TitS 3rd Evolution was just announced today.

This has been a great year for The Legend of Heroes fans. Thinking I might get into it myself, one of these days, because I haven't met a single fan of the game who didn't absolutely love it.
Can confirm. Rabid fan here. Fantastic year. FC Evo back in June, SC in October, Cold Steel in November - December, and SC Evo in December. It's beautiful.

The last Trails game to get its Evolution version (excluding Cold Steel trilogy), ayy. Hopefully, Kadokawa still has a keen interest on doing this after The 3rd, because I would love for them to give the Gagharv trilogy the same treatment.

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  #2932    
Old November 10th, 2015 (11:26 AM).
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Judge Mandolore Shepard Judge Mandolore Shepard is offline
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Speaking of upcoming video games. Earlier today I got information regarding the release date of Battleborn. It will becoming out May 3rd of next year for Xbox One, PS4, and Windows.
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  #2933    
Old November 10th, 2015 (11:36 AM).
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I haven't even played the first TitS yet...and I'm not paying £25 for it, haha. I'll stick this one on the backlog and go back to Item World shenanigans in Disgaea 4 for the time being~

I forgot Fallout 4 was released today, too...I won't be buying it until the inevitable GOTY edition comes out, but it was nice to see my local GAME getting into the swing of things with banners and costumes. I don't envy the managers the all-nighter they pulled for the midnight launch, though.
  #2934    
Old November 10th, 2015 (11:36 AM).
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I haven't even played the first TitS yet...and I'm not paying £25 for it, haha. I'll stick this one on the backlog and go back to Item World shenanigans in Disgaea 4 for the time being~

I forgot Fallout 4 was released today, too...I won't be buying it until the inevitable GOTY edition comes out, but it was nice to see my local GAME getting into the swing of things with banners and costumes. I don't envy the managers the all-nighter they pulled for the midnight launch, though.
  #2935    
Old November 11th, 2015 (2:54 AM).
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And better, TitS 3rd Evolution was just announced today.
Better, huh? That's fairly subjective =D I get the nuance but I feel the proper analysis is in place =D
1) 3rd Kai is something that connects the series to future Kiseki installments and since XSEED will most likely not localize Zero and Ao, info-wise it will be pretty useless until Sen2 =D Plus, since FC and SC close up the Sora storyline, TC is just something like bonus and motivation to continue =D
2) It's EVOLUTION, thus, no localization =D So... unless one is willing to import (which most people probably won't, I know I will :D) it's not much of reason to celebrate :D

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Originally Posted by machomuu View Post
This has been a great year for The Legend of Heroes fans. Thinking I might get into it myself, one of these days, because I haven't met a single fan of the game who didn't absolutely love it.
Because there's absolutely nothing you can not like on these games =D

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Originally Posted by Arc View Post
Can confirm. Rabid fan here. Fantastic year. FC Evo back in June, SC in October, Cold Steel in November - December, and SC Evo in December. It's beautiful.

The last Trails game to get its Evolution version (excluding Cold Steel trilogy), ayy. Hopefully, Kadokawa still has a keen interest on doing this after The 3rd, because I would love for them to give the Gagharv trilogy the same treatment.
We must make Kiseki thread xDDDDD Btw, Cold Steel should be December, at least that's what my Lionheart edition pre-order says =D
I don't think there will be anything related to Gagharv trilogy, afaik that is not part of Kiseki series, right?
And it seems they want to give Kiseki series their full attention =D
As for EVO for Sen, that's probably also not gonna happen since they are already on Vita-tan =D
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  #2936    
Old November 11th, 2015 (7:00 AM).
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Wicked3DS Wicked3DS is offline
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Just wanted to chime in that today marks the 4th anniversary of one of my favorite games, Skyrim.


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  #2937    
Old November 11th, 2015 (8:02 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satoshi Ookami View Post

Better, huh? That's fairly subjective =D I get the nuance but I feel the proper analysis is in place =D
1) 3rd Kai is something that connects the series to future Kiseki installments and since XSEED will most likely not localize Zero and Ao, info-wise it will be pretty useless until Sen2 =D Plus, since FC and SC close up the Sora storyline, TC is just something like bonus and motivation to continue =D
2) It's EVOLUTION, thus, no localization =D So... unless one is willing to import (which most people probably won't, I know I will :D) it's not much of reason to celebrate :D
Ohoh, Toshtoast, you merry prankster. You know what I meant by "better", you kidder you.
  #2938    
Old November 11th, 2015 (11:21 AM).
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We must make Kiseki thread xDDDDD Btw, Cold Steel should be December, at least that's what my Lionheart edition pre-order says =D
I don't think there will be anything related to Gagharv trilogy, afaik that is not part of Kiseki series, right?
And it seems they want to give Kiseki series their full attention =D
As for EVO for Sen, that's probably also not gonna happen since they are already on Vita-tan =D
If we made a Kiseki thread, I assure that Netto, you, and myself will be the only ones frequenting it, lol. I'm just saying November - December to be on the safe side. It's almost definitely going to be a December release, but you never know, it can slip in at the last week for November.

Satoshi, don't kill the dreams... But, there have been references to Gagharv trilogy in the main Kiseki series. And Zemuria is only one continent that we've seen. So, it's not too out of the realm that the events of Gagharv can take place in the same world. Of course, this is tinfoil hat territory, and there isn't nearly enough evidence to confidently make this claim, haha.

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  #2939    
Old November 12th, 2015 (4:41 AM).
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Satoshi Ookami Satoshi Ookami is offline
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If we made a Kiseki thread, I assure that Netto, you, and myself will be the only ones frequenting it, lol.
That's... actually more than 2 xDDDD

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Originally Posted by Arc View Post
I'm just saying November - December to be on the safe side. It's almost definitely going to be a December release, but you never know, it can slip in at the last week for November.
That... would be kinda bad since my goods are supposed to be released on December 15 :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc View Post
Satoshi, don't kill the dreams... But, there have been references to Gagharv trilogy in the main Kiseki series. And Zemuria is only one continent that we've seen. So, it's not too out of the realm that the events of Gagharv can take place in the same world. Of course, this is tinfoil hat territory, and there isn't nearly enough evidence to confidently make this claim, haha.
But you will kill my wallet for imports if I have to import more thingies :D
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  #2940    
Old November 12th, 2015 (11:41 AM).
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So for the past week, Games for Windows Live kept not getting my purchase history, so I caved and got GTA IV on Steam. Best decision I've made - I can handle very high settings and the only time I really lag is when there's a load of entities on the screen, such as NPCs and cars. Otherwise, my new laptop is handing it quite well.

So I'm gonna go and play some modded GTA IV: Carmageddon.


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  #2941    
Old November 12th, 2015 (12:07 PM).
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Just a heads up: tomorrow this DCC will be locked and unstickied in favor of a new surprise one!

Thought I'd bring this up now so people know where to look if a reply gets caught at the end of the thread.
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