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bobandbill

one more time
16,910
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ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH long post of doom. Seriously, I don't think there's that much I can add to that particular topic as it seems to have touched most aspects that interest me. Why is it that usually stuff happens here AFTER 2am my time, and seems to stop before I go back on the computer?

Umm....

What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Umm... my main hopes for my fic is basically to have it finished, actually, however long that may take. I'd like it if people also like it until the end and all, but I mainly do it for myself and the fun of it. After it... well, frankly, I don't really know too much. I hope that after I'll be able to look back on it and be glad with what I did - otherwise, I'm slightly unsure by what exactly is the question here, really... after its done, its done. If it somehow happens to get liked by a large amount of people and stay around for a while, yay then, but its not so much a hope I have for it as something that would be nice if it happened. (Note the 'if' XD).
 

txteclipse

The Last
2,322
Posts
16
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What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Actually finishing would be fantastic, and then I can start putting out all the side stories I keep coming up with. *nods*
 

JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord
3,277
Posts
19
Years
I would, but certain people within the group say it for for me most of the time :). I'd rather not just be an echo...

My dear, if you've got something to say about a fanfiction, chances are, it does more harm than good to simply keep it to yourself, and it's not at all polite to blanket insult those authors on a public forum, rather than tell them how you feel directly to their faces.

Of course all of them aren't, but many of them are,

Not everyone thinks the same way. Period. It's great that you've got an idea of what does and doesn't work for the genre, but those other fics get the reviews that they do for a reason: because other people do think they're readable. And regardless of whether or not your group of friends thinks the same, there's a lot of people reviewing these fics with praise. If you disagree, go review them rather than talk crap about their fics without naming names.

It's rather annoying and frustrating to see that you seem to put your fanfiction on a pedestal. Sure, you say it has cliches, but you're also saying that it's more readable than anything else in the genre. At the same time, you seem afraid to comment on someone else's work because you're afraid it'll be an echo.

Let me say one thing about that: if you don't like something that's going on with a genre or if you don't like a story, chances are, the author won't know about it until you say something. FFNet's full of new writers. They don't know what is and isn't kosher; they simply see other fics like theirs and think what they're doing is okay. If all they get is praise, they'll keep doing what they do without fixing their mistakes. If they just get one voice of concrit and tons of praise, they'll think the one voice doesn't know what they're talking about. If they get a few voices, it might pass through, but chances are, it still won't. If they get enough voices telling them they're doing something stupid (in polite words), they'll either give up or, if they actually care at all about writing, try to improve.

There's no reason why you should hold back except if you're compensating for your own fic. I say compensating because when you get out there and actually leave decent reviews, you start to look at your own work with a more critical eye. You're leaving yourself open to getting reviewed in return, so you end up looking carefully at your work and realizing it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread to brace yourself for someone just like you to give you the kinds of reviews you left.

But in general, I'd hate to say it, but "I don't want to sound like an echo" =/= a good excuse. If you don't like it, rather than trash talk the genre behind its back, go out there and tell the authors to their face exactly how you feel.

Otherwise, you don't come off as particularly friendly right now by putting your own work on a pedestal but refusing to say why someone else's isn't up to par. (Yes, you said it here, but you're preaching to the wrong choir.)

For the last time, I forgot/didn't know (Yes it is a mix)! :(

The rules are in a sticky. Not beating it into your head or anything here. I'm saying we can't review because we can't review, so please stop expecting us to. In other words, emphasizing an issue that keeps popping up.

I still think that, in the case of fanfic, it does more harm than good for everyone's stories in terms of reviews...

Except for one thing: if an author's fic has been dead for a year, chances are, the author isn't active anymore. Basically, here, you're saying it's productive to review a work, only to have the original poster never see it because they don't visit the site anymore or have moved onto other projects.

That's really the thing about update frequency and what it tells the readers as well. Untouched stories that have gone inactive for more than a month usually tell the potential audience that it's dead for a reason. Numbers of authors around here leave stories unfinished (as I've said before) but move on to something else because they don't like the story they were working on. There's absolutely no way to know whether or not the story is actually active unless the author actually posts a new chapter, so most people will automatically think that if it's gone for so long without the author so much as saying a peep about it, it's one of those abandoned works that the author doesn't care about anymore (if the author hasn't simply up and left altogether).

In other words, yes, it makes sense because it automatically bars us from replying to a dead project. We've got better things to do than to offer advice to a fic when the author is either not even on the community anymore or has improved and is showing that through newer work. It's not productive to take a risk, put effort into a review, and leave it where we're not sure if the author will actually see it and can use our feedback.

At this point I think so, I was trying to change the subject :\.

How many times were you taking a condescending attitude towards me and insulting the general public? Hey, at least I openly admit that I'm getting annoyed.

And change of subject or not, you responded, so I replied. Sorry, but you can't really shepherd me into simply ignoring a response and avoid a subject unless you're saying something particularly illogical.
 
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Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
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There's no reason why you should hold back except if you're compensating for your own fic. I say compensating because when you get out there and actually leave decent reviews, you start to look at your own work with a more critical eye. You're leaving yourself open to getting reviewed in return, so you end up looking carefully at your work and realizing it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread to brace yourself for someone just like you to give you the kinds of reviews you left.

That's not the reason, and I would rather not say what my reasoning is (and please, I know very well your feelings on my doing this, I remember very well what you said last time we talked and how angry it (and how I reply to what you say) makes you. I am very sorry.).. But it is not because I think my fic is the best thing since sliced bread, or have fear of reviews in return. If that was the case I would have never come on the internet at all in the first place. I will only say I don't hate the general public as a whole no matter what I say here (where I am mostly simply venting), and that
My dear, if you've got something to say about a fanfiction, chances are, it does more harm than good to simply keep it to yourself, and it's not at all polite to blanket insult those authors on a public forum, rather than tell them how you feel directly to their faces.
what I said was truly no worst than such comments made by many others over and over again in other fanfic forums (and even this one) about everything from journey fics to mary sues, by well known authors and otherwise.

I quit on the subjects, both of them. It is not mature to do so, as I understand the unspoken laws of forum debate, but I just do. Believe what you want, you win, etc...
*goes back to answering writing questions posted earlier*
 
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JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord
3,277
Posts
19
Years
what I said was truly no worst than such comments made by many others over and over again in other fanfic forums (and even this one) about everything from journey fics to mary sues, by well known authors and otherwise.

Actually, in a sense, what you're doing is because you're not actually telling the proper people what they're doing wrong to their face. As a result, you're basically making fun of them behind their backs. I don't know what your actual reasoning is, but to tell you the truth, I don't believe there's a valid reason to do something like that to a person when it comes to their work. If you sit through an entire fanfiction and think it's utter crap, you just owe it to yourself and the author who's looking to improve to actually say something about it -- even a short paragraph to tell them how they're doing. (Especially if you expect the same treatment back.)

Not to mention are you saying that if someone else trash talks someone's work without actually directly telling the author how they're doing, it's perfectly okay for you to do it too?

Given that you're adamant on changing the subject, you can consider that a rhetorical question.
 

Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
Years
Not to mention are you saying that if someone else trash talks someone's work without actually directly telling the author how they're doing, it's perfectly okay for you to do it too?
I am not sure really, I don't think of it as trash talk exactly honestly. On the one hand, can talking about how certain elements often have been written to death and often badly and in many many fanfics (a topic on many forums) on ff. net be called talking about a single authors fanfic badly behind their back?

What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Umm... my main hopes for my fic is basically to have it finished, actually, however long that may take. I'd like it if people also like it until the end and all, but I mainly do it for myself and the fun of it. After it... well, frankly, I don't really know too much. I hope that after I'll be able to look back on it and be glad with what I did - otherwise, I'm slightly unsure by what exactly is the question here, really... after its done, its done. If it somehow happens to get liked by a large amount of people and stay around for a while, yay then, but its not so much a hope I have for it as something that would be nice if it happened. (Note the 'if' XD).
Finishing is in of it self something to be proud of, I agree :). Finished fics are very enjoyable to read IMHO :)
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Actually finishing would be fantastic, and then I can start putting out all the side stories I keep coming up with. *nods*

Good for you, keep going :D!
 
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JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord
3,277
Posts
19
Years
On the one hand, can talking about how certain elements often have been written to death and often badly and in many many fanfics (a topic on many forums) on ff. net be called talking about a single authors fanfic badly behind their back?

As a note, I realize this question is about FFNet, but given that you either mean in reviews (which is directly to the author, not behind their backs) or via forums (which is basically the same as trash talking someone on FFNet through PC), I'm just going to make something about PC's fanfiction comm clear. I have no problem with a general guide that addresses more than one archive (like Thesis's OT guide) because that makes an effort to address problems that don't just appear in one archive. In other words, the difference between what Thesis is doing and what you're doing is basically Thesis has no one in particular in mind when he wrote his guide. (In your posts, meanwhile, you did, especially the part where you talk about a certain group of people.*)

On top of that, usually, these guides are written for the sole purpose of actually trying to teach the community how to avoid using cliches. It's not simply talking about them or insulting a group of fics. It's actually making an effort to change what's going on in a genre by highlighting problems and offering examples for why it's not a good idea and how to avoid doing them.

Additionally, if you're talking about the majority of fics in a community but make no effort to actually go out and say address something to them about it, then yes. While I agree there's cliches, at least if I spot one, I make sure to tell the author about it. It's fair, especially when I expect the same treatment back. In other words, another difference between what people who write those guides do and what you're saying is that the people who write those guides are often also reviewers who open themselves up to working with other people.

Put simply, if you don't actually review but literally say that a large number of fics in a certain genre of a certain community is unreadable**, then it's not fair and can be considered talking crap. If you take the time to work with the people of a community and then maybe compile a list of things for the purpose of actually teaching a group what is and isn't a good idea, then it's not talking crap.

Or, even shorter put, whether or not talking about this (as a general subject) can be considered trash talking depends on how it's said and what the intent is.

Footnotes:
* For easier reading:

I'm not talking about every fan of the type of fic, but rather a certain group...

Of course, it's also fairly ambiguous as to whether or not you mean your friends or the people you're referring to.

** Also quoted from an earlier post:

And actually, no there are not that many readable Pokemorph fics .
 
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Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
Years
I agree that I said that there aren't that many good fics of a certain type (I don't deny that). If that is trash talking,so be it, but I still say I have seen such feelings everywhere from forums to LJ, from all sorts of members, in a format that is not limited to the helpful guides, or at all polite words only posted as reviews to the fanfics in question (by older members and others alike). Does that make it right? Most likely not, but there it is, and has always been in fandom...
Of course, it's also fairly ambiguous as to whether or not you mean your friends or the people you're referring to.
I don't know them outside the internet, so they aren't friends in that sense, but I did mean other readers/writers I know that share a certain taste, not anyone else...

There is already a guide, in another community I belong to, on the subject of writing pokemorphs. I would rather not repeat it here, as it is written just fine where it is :). I could ask the author if she would like to post it here, if anyone would be interested :).

What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
Like others what I want to do most of all is finish. Even though I do wonder about the lifespan of a fanfic after the fact I don't put any stock in ever thinking any of my fic will live forever. But on the off chance someone does read it again years later, I would like the story they find to be a whole story :)..
(I do, however, wonder how long sites like FF.net will stay online O.o. So much of everyones writing is recorded there and only there, it would be a shame to lose it...)
 
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JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord
3,277
Posts
19
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Most likely not, but there it is, and has always been in fandom...

At the risk of being tasteless, if a number of people punched everyone else in the face, does that mean that gives you the right to do it too?

The point of the argument I was making was not whether or not everyone else trash talked authors behind their backs but whether or not you should use that as an excuse to mimic their behavior (whether or not you think your way of doing it is milder). It's heavily ironic to do so, considering you were condemning continuing on this subject as immature a few posts earlier when the subject itself is the question of whether or not playing sheep to the viciousness of fandom (particularly without reviewing) is a mature and fair act to begin with.

There is already a guide, in another community I belong to, on the subject of writing pokemorphs.

...Out of sheer and honest curiosity, exactly what does this have to do with my post? =/ I brought up the subject of guides in general, but I didn't say there should be a guide to Pokemorphs. And even then, it really doesn't matter if someone else wrote a guide. I wrote a guide to reviewing for PC, knowing full well that Serebii's got their own guide. That really didn't stop me, partly because I know not everyone goes to Serebii and reads the stuff they have in their fanfiction forum.
 

Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
Years
considering you were condemning continuing on this subject as immature a few posts earlier
I was saying suddenly wanting to stop the debate and just agree to degree was often as an unspoken rule thought of as immature in online debate and that I did not care and just wanted to stop it and change the subject anyway.
...Out of sheer and honest curiosity, exactly what does this have to do with my post? =/ I brought up the subject of guides in general, but I didn't say there should be a guide to Pokemorphs. And even then, it really doesn't matter if someone else wrote a guide. I wrote a guide to reviewing for PC, knowing full well that Serebii's got their own guide. That really didn't stop me, partly because I know not everyone goes to Serebii and reads the stuff they have in their fanfiction forum.
It seemed like you were suggesting if I had something to say it was best said in a guide format with the support of a community behind it to add points. I was just saying I feel that there is already a guide that says just about everything I ever would wish to, in much more detail than I ever could given time and other issues...I don't want to basically rewrite whats already been said to help, when the first time did it just fine, and is still there for everyone :).
 
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JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord
3,277
Posts
19
Years
It seemed like you were suggesting if I had something to say it was best said in a guide format with the support of a community behind it to add points.

Actually, no, what I've been saying for the past several posts was that if you had something to say, you say it to the right audience, period. For the most part, I'm saying you do this in reviews first and build up the credentials that don't make people want to blow you off if you try to do a guide. (As in, if people don't know you, and you go to write a guide, people may initially wonder if you know what you're talking about.)

In fact, at no point did I mean to suggest that you should write a guide. Not saying that you yourself lack the credentials to do it. Frankly, it's not my place to say whether or not you do. However, a guide takes a lot of time and effort (even if people give you feedback on it), and you need to know exactly what audience to address and how to say things in order to get your point across effectively. If anything, I wouldn't actually recommend doing a guide at all unless you were absolutely certain you knew what you were doing in the first place.
 

Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
Years
Moving on to other topics...

I always wondered how Farfetch'd is *hatched* with a leek. Maybe it really isn't a normal leek but somehow a disconnected part of its' body?
 
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bobandbill

one more time
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The mother carries around a spare leek for when it hatches, or something. -_-

(Then again, we're talking about the same sort of game mechanic that has baby Kangaskhan hatch which already have a joey in its pouch... O_o)

(Has the orgy been forgotten already? D=)
 

Orange_Flaaffy

Crystal Bell Keeper
340
Posts
19
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(Then again, we're talking about the same sort of game mechanic that has baby Kangaskhan hatch which already have a joey in its pouch... O_o)
Somehow, written realistically, I could see the hatching of a Kangaskhan with a baby already being very gorey O.o
I like the idea of putting the egg in the mothers (or fathers) pouch and having it hatch into the joey...
 

Bay

6,385
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17
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(Has the orgy been forgotten already? D=)

Seems like it, although it's interesting seeing Jax and Orange Flaffy debate (again). :P

Yeah, sorry for not keeping up with the orgy, guys. Been feeling bleh today and a bit nervous for this one interview (sort of) tomorrow. Urgh, will read through the posts and answer the topics after I get some things done.

All right, here's the orgy list so far:

bobandbill x Miror B's afro x Shrike Flamestar's Fire x celuthea x An-channnnnn x Ninja Caterpie x Todoroki joke x my sweet Valentine x Feign x solovino x Astinus x Baby Sims x Griff x txteclipse x whipped cream x DP479 x Baybaybaybaybaybay x Rekhyt

LET'S KEEP THIS LIST GOING GUYS! :D
 

Bay

6,385
Posts
17
Years
The orgy list is something fun one of us (forgot who) came up with a long time ago as a ploy to have this lounge be more active. :P We had an old list before, but cause many of the people in the list either became inactive in PC or changed their usernames, we decided to do the list. Wanna be in it? ;)

Ack, skimmed through the posts and looks like I'll have a lot to read tomorrow after my interview. XD However, I want to answer this topic:

What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
NE is going to be finished in mid May. :) After it's finished, I'm hoping everyone will enjoy the ending and also will make them think cause the ending lines is actually the whole theme of the story. XD; I had revised the ending like ten times already. :O Not only that, I'm hoping when I look back at NE five years from now, I'll be feeling all nostalgic and such. XD
 
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