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What makes a good villain?

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Umm...why did you start a new topic about this when precisely this topic was discussed in the lounge just a couple of days ago? :\ Just look at the responses and you should get a pretty good view of what is and isn't liked.

Looking at the responses, a couple of prominent ones are:

1. The true psycho villain (Think Hannibal Lecter), the kind that is intelligent but utterly twisted at the same time so there's no telling what they'll do or to whom.

2. The deceptive, manipulative villain, the kind which everyone (preferably audience included) thinks of as a good person and trusts but who, in reality, is manipulating the protagonist and antagonist alike for his/her own ends.

3. The understandable antagonist, one who is not so much evil in the stereotypical sense as just acting under a different set of morals or different impression of what is good. (I.e. they're, morally speaking, on pretty much equal grounds with the protagonists) For this type of villain, it's very important to have their points make sense. So something like Archie's 'more water for all' does not really work because the notion that drowning the world would somehow be good is a bit out of there. o.O Yeah, sensible motivations for these.


As for the stuff people don't like to see...the bumbling idiot villains and stereotypical mua-ha-haists who blurt out their entire plot to the hero and always make stupid mistakes to let them save the day didn't get much love. Comic relief villains are one thing, but the big ones should be villains that a reader can take seriously.

Of those two you described, number two looks like the more promising one. The first seems a bit too much like the stereotypical 'I do evil things because-because I'm EVIL!' type, and those are pretty boring.


yup dat about sums it up good read
 
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yup dat about sums it up good read
Yeup. That there be spam.

Cut the spam. Add more to your post. Don't just quote another's post and say that it's good. Add to the discussion.

There was no need to post that. Read the rules, and the next time you get caught posting spam, it's a warning.
 

ze_gobou

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Maybe it's just because I've watched too much cartoons, but I tend to think that "misunderstood villains", as you seem to call them, are a bit clichéd. At least, nearly all the villains of that kind that I've seen (or read about) were. I just don't believed in what they said, and thought "oh noes, that kind of villains again...".
Do you know how to write such a villain while not making him clichéd ?
 

JX Valentine

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Maybe it's just because I've watched too much cartoons, but I tend to think that "misunderstood villains", as you seem to call them, are a bit clichéd. At least, nearly all the villains of that kind that I've seen (or read about) were. I just don't believed in what they said, and thought "oh noes, that kind of villains again...".

Curiosity speaking, but which cartoons have you been watching? O.o Nearly all of the ones I've seen feature villains who are either bumbling idiots but still consider themselves to be evil (a la Jessie, James, and Meowth) or are purely evil and bent on taking over/destroying the world. The misunderstood villain (a la Maxie or Archie, I assume) didn't come up quite as frequently, I thought. Then again, I'm used to superhero cartoons and 90's anime, where that sort of thing isn't as big an archetype.

Unless you actually meant something else by the term "misunderstood villain." (Alter Ego's #2 instead of #3?)
 
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what makes a good villain is the robe the look the scar and the laugh u gotta have the evil laugh xD
 
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Wrong. It's the motive. If you wanted to be really cheesy and have a villain from some lame 80's cartoon show (I'm thinking He-Man here) and if you didn't want anyone to take your fic seriously, then you can have the robe, scar, and evil laugh.

"Mine is an evil laugh!"

Heck, in all my nineteen years of reading and watching television, I can only think of one villain who wore a robe, had an evil laugh, and was sickly. But that wasn't what made him a villain. What made him a villain was his motive: he wanted to become a god, and he was willing to step on anyone who got in his way, including his twin brother.

It was the motive that made him evil. And it was the way that the writers set him up. They kept readers guessing if he was the evil member of the group, but he was actually one of the most loyal to his friends. It wasn't until he got the power that he turned evil.
 
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But the "Mine is an evil laugh" is lame, and something done in little kid cartoons to show that this person is evil and mean. Heck, I think in the show LazyTown the evil character laughed with a "mwahahaha!" laugh to show that he was evil. But I can't be sure, since I don't watch a lot of little kid shows anymore, and I only saw LazyTown once.

But as the audience changes, they begin to roll their eyes at the evil-laughing villains. At least I do. I want to see the villains that aren't clear-cut. You can't point at them when they are first introduced and go "See, they're evil!" It makes it more interesting to question whether or not the person is evil. Like in the example I gave. In the first two books of the series, no one could really guess if he was evil or not.

Besides, there are also the villains that are internal. The dark inner demons, if you will. And you don't see them with an evil laugh.
 

Yamato-san

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But the "Mine is an evil laugh" is lame, and something done in little kid cartoons to show that this person is evil and mean. Heck, I think in the show LazyTown the evil character laughed with a "mwahahaha!" laugh to show that he was evil. But I can't be sure, since I don't watch a lot of little kid shows anymore, and I only saw LazyTown once.

But as the audience changes, they begin to roll their eyes at the evil-laughing villains. At least I do.

you shouldn't roll your eyes at them.... it really depends on whether or not the type of villain fits the story. Recently, I watched the DVD sets for both The Super Mario Bros. Super Show and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3. Aside from the nice nostalgic trip, I was reminded what a nice antagonist King Koopa was (I speak of the cartoon's version.... though, the Bowser from the games could probably work in this context as well). I couldn't say he was all that great at being evil, because several of his plans were pretty out there, and he'd constantly mention how much he loves being nasty (which is about as far as one could possibly get to understanding "why" he's an antagonist). However, the show hardly seemed to take itself seriously, and for that reason, I think King Koopa really worked. He was a comic relief villain, fitting towards an often comedic cartoon.

I guess Dick Dastardly from Wacky Racers would be one of the more famous examples of what I'm getting at. And you can't honestly consider LazyTown (or practically any little kids' show) to be some sort of serious epic, can you? So why condemn him for being the "evil-laughing type" (especially when said evil-laughing is more than likely intended to seem exaggeratedly forced)? Now, if you've got a story that presents itself more seriously, then you can probably expect the villains to be more cold, cunning, badass, and/or deep. There may still be an occasional comic-relief villain, but if they serve their purpose of providing some laughs in the midst of a dark story, then you probably shouldn't roll your eyes at them neither (although, if said comic-relief types actually succeeded at something, like killing off a protagonist or taking over a nation, that should serve as a huge shock factor, albeit it gets harder to view them as comic relief once they've shown themselves to be perfectly competent and cold-blooded killers).
 
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Because I was going along the lines of writing a serious fic. Sure, if the fic wasn't going to take itself seriously and go along the lines of being comedic, then the evil laughing villains would fit in wonderfully. But if the fic was written to be serious, then some eyes would be rolling on the part of some readers who expected a serious villain in a serious fic. It would be rather jarring to suddenly see some villain in a serious fic belt out a cheesy cliched laugh.

And I wasn't implying that LazyTown was some epic worthy of every bloody award out there. It was the only little kid show that I could think of that had an evil character who had an evil laugh. That's what I was implying and I was using examples that I could think of. It was to show that evil laughter is used to make it blatantly obvious that that character is evil. And perhaps some people don't like having everything handed to them on a silver platter and made obvious to them in the first five seconds? Perhaps some people enjoy guessing?

It's a matter of differing opinions. It's part of talking to other people. Some people might not think the same as you. It's just a fact of life? Now if you could kindly stop pointing out everything you disagree with in my posts, I'd appreciate that. Especially since I don't recall anything I ever did to offend you other than post on the forum.
 
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Isaac Gravity

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If I may...? About the laughter part... (EDIT: All posts centering around laughter)

Not all villains who laugh are made for comedic purposes or are lame. Sometimes it just molds how greedy/psychotic/deeply sure of themselves they are. Hell some of them have "final boss" written on them It's just how its done is done and the story in question itself.

I mean for those cool/collected types might be just that but when close (ridiculously close) to their achieving their goals their greedy side would sometimes appear. Laughing insanely/victorious as they can no longer contain their usual atmosphere since their long sought after prize is right in front of them. (Though I'm more of a fan for the smirkers in this kind of villainous arch-type. I do have a soft spot for those who go "Fu fu")

Then there's those villains that are just... crazy. They get a sick kick out of bringing others pain and just love twisting the arms of "avengers" out for them. Depending on overall representation you get various laughters, but usually you get more sickening laughter from them (ki ki) and many do it often and love it, they know it'll be a divination day in the final circle of hell before they're stopped.

And of course its all about their mentality. Those who are plain psychotic are enjoying killing too much to care if there's pain (on either end. Though depending on the writer and the theme their trying to carry, if finally beaten they may finally realize their position.) The more intelligent ones are definitely what I consider the more blood-boiling because they'll even recollect how they killed the person just to see you pissed/or want to remember for whatever sick enjoyment they see in it. All in all, these types can either be top ranks, villian of the week or sometimes the big boss depending on their aptitude. And there's nothing funny or cheesy about them... They know what makes you tick.

Then there's those boisterous laughter villains/enemies. As cheesy as they are (to most) these guys back their laugh. They can either be (or be driven) psychotic or deeply sure of their awesome power. Their might and the lives they hurt/destroyed/almost ruined if the protagonist and co. didn't come along (be it physical or in mental manipulation) shows they're no joke. They're only laughing at the ant their about to squash and their pitiful fate as they slowly but surely whittle down the confidence of those they face before crushing them with overwhelming force.

Their laughter along with position and personality vary. The most cheesy laughter you'd hear is the "Oh ho ho." from feminine/high-class female villain. Or "BWA HA HA!" from powerful generals/enemies pushed to blood-lusting insanity but it really fits.

And for 80's cartoons there's always Mum-Ra from ThunderCats. Sure he's an 80's villain but he sure as hell beats the crap out of most villains these days--Ah, right, well Mum-Ra is those cheesy laughing villains but Mum-Ra himself was nothing to take lightly. He always gave Lion-O and the rest of the ThunderCats a run for their lives and was always the closest to actually wiping them off until beaten. (Hell sometimes things got so bad a plot device had to come and save the day)

I only remember seeing Mum-Ra humorously twice but those eps--- Right! Well in any case, it's not just personal opinion but how they're represented too. Some guys represented as "final boss" from the get go serious story or not, the situation is there right? (Just enjoy the ride) Or that's what you think but they were just an agent for something greater and he/she's a total badass-- GAH! It's all just how it's done...
 
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Yamato-san

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Because I was going along the lines of writing a serious fic. Sure, if the fic wasn't going to take itself seriously and go along the lines of being comedic, then the evil laughing villains would fit in wonderfully. But if the fic was written to be serious, then some eyes would be rolling on the part of some readers who expected a serious villain in a serious fic. It would be rather jarring to suddenly see some villain in a serious fic belt out a cheesy cliched laugh.

And I wasn't implying that LazyTown was some epic worthy of every bloody award out there. It was the only little kid show that I could think of that had an evil character who had an evil laugh. That's what I was implying and I was using examples that I could think of. It was to show that evil laughter is used to make it blatantly obvious that that character is evil. And perhaps some people don't like having everything handed to them on a silver platter and made obvious to them in the first five seconds? Perhaps some people enjoy guessing?

It's a matter of differing opinions. It's part of talking to other people. Some people might not think the same as you. It's just a fact of life? Now if you could kindly stop pointing out everything you disagree with in my posts, I'd appreciate that. Especially since I don't recall anything I ever did to offend you other than post on the forum.

OK, you need to chill the hell out. God, what kind of mod do you think you are jumping to rabid conclusions like you do?

First of all, how was I supposed to know you were writing a serious fanfic (or any fanfic for that matter)? Second of all, aside from pointing out that you shouldn't be judging comic relief villains for all the wrong reasons, at which point do I sound offended or disagreeing? Third of all, would "not handing stuff on a silver platter" even matter if you're talking about a non-serious show with a heavily episodic formula (such as LazyTown, and a lot of American cartoons for that matter)? It's not as if said show builds itself on drama and suspense.

Now if you could kindly stop pointing out everything you disagree with in my posts, I'd appreciate that.

Are you familiar with the term "debate" at all? I saw your description of evil-laughing villains as being something worth rolling ones eyes at to be flawed logic. I present points to counter said logic. I fail to see what I did wrong. Also, I really don't wanna play the "mod abusing their power" card, but your way of italicizing "my" really makes you come off as a high-and-mighty, self-centered *****. You may have the power to ban people and close threads, but don't forget that you can be right or wrong as much as any other user.
 

bobandbill

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IMO, there's not too much that restricts a character on whether they are a villian or now. A good villian needs, like any character, a good personality, that makes you love him (or her) or hate him, and probably a motive as well, I have to say. Otherwise they would probably be classified as 'arrogant ner-do-weller that likes to cause dispair for the heck of it', rather than a villian.

However, from there, it's all the author's twists on the character - how they shape him, what is their purpose, how they go about it, or just how much of a villian they really are. That would probably go for the evil laugh as well - they either have it, or they don't - it's not nesserary, but many a good villian has both had or haven't had a evil laugh.

Take, oh, say, Pokemon Colosseum - Nascour, and Miror B. Nascour is the dark, pure-evil type villian - gets what he wants without caring about the consequences, motive is to gain world domination (obviously...), and cares about it deeply, gaining top-ish status in Cipher.
Miror B, however... he's a villian of sorts (kidnaps a Pokemon to turn it Shadow, also wanted to capture a 'problem' of Cipher's), but really isn't that much of one inside - not as much as, say, music or dancing, and is an easy-going sort of character. Both have a motive, and a personality, were decent villians (in my opinion at least, and Miror B more than Nascour...), but are quite different from each other in other attributes, as well as personalities and motives as well.

And obviously, a villian HAS to do something 'evil', or 'villian-ness', either directly or not-so directly otherwise, they're not a villian, right?
 

Scarlet Weather

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Here's something to satisfy all: in my fanfic, the main villain is planned to be a robe-wearing, scar-faced psycho who everyone thinks is a good guy but has an evil laugh and plans to destroy the world in order to feed starving children in Hungary on the remains of the dead while he laughs maniacally and possesses god-like powers and/or a Latin theme song. *MEGA-SHOT'ED*

Okay, so maybe not that. But seriously, a good villain does depend on the setting. If the show is supposed to be silly, you don't want a demon overlord as a villain. Seriously, if YGOTAS had Anubis acting serious and actually causing serious damage to the main cast it wouldn't be much of a parody. Well, maybe it would be if everyone else acted the same. I dunno. 0_o
 

ze_gobou

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Jax Malcolm -> I've watched French cartoons :'( Maybe English/American ones are better. And by the way, I mean children's cartoons, not serious things.
By "misunderstood villain", I mean, those who had a dark childhood, or whose ideas and projects were misunderstood, and who after some years have decided to revenge... like, for instance, crazy scientists...
The "crazy scientists" (don't know if it is the right phrase) are quite an archetype, but I was wondering whether it was possible or not to come up with a deep character with such a profile.
 

JX Valentine

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Maybe English/American ones are better. And by the way, I mean children's cartoons, not serious things.

I wouldn't say they're better than French cartoons, but yeah, children's cartoons over here usually have the mindless villain who's just evil for the sake of being evil. XD There's no particular depth to them, and if there is, it's usually added as an afterthought. (So, uh, in that case, maybe it's French cartoons that are better than the American stuff. Or at least the American stuff that I watched as a kid.)
 

txteclipse

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Would anyone mind if I asked for villain advice here? If yes, this can be removed. I won't mind too much >.<

Anyways, I'm having trouble deciding on motives for my villains. If you read (or are going to read) the Eon Chronicles (my fic), I must warn you that here there be massive spoilers. Seriously, hardcore-ly gigantinormous spoilers. Oh, and this will be long, so buckle your seatbelts.

Spoiler:
 
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I just came up with an idea for the secondary villain. Two actually. One is that he's been a villain from the start, and does evil deeds because he believes his master is trying to do good,but when his treachery is revealed, he starts to revert to true darkness. Another is that he starts out good, but is manipulated into villainy by the main villain. I both, he ends up being a true villain.
 
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