What came first: Arceus or Mew?

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

What does Giratina gotta do with this theory?

I never said GameFreak is lying but they might not be giving out the whole truth. I believe the truth's gonna come out when GameFreak quits making Pokemon game cos they will eventually but idk if they will anytime soon; and when that time comes in the last game it's gonna show how all the events happened from the beginning to the end, that's how I think they're gonna end it. While in the game they're gonna give out the REAL truth to it all. Right now where just using little bits and pieces GameFreak gave us and we don't even know if it's all 100% true. Like I said, GameFreak's not gonna say who or what the creator of the Pokemon world is.... at least not yet. Yes, they did mention Arceus a lot but how do you not know GameFreak is making the game about the scientist that discovered these and they're still trying to figure it out? Put that into consideration.

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I doubt they'd contradict themselves further. They haven't given bits and pieces of information, they've made it very clear that Arceus created the Pokemon world.

Also, the subject of this thread is considering that Ancestor and Creator are the same thing, while that is far from true. My great great grandfather is one of my ancestors, he didn't create the world though O.o

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

What does Giratina gotta do with this theory?

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Giratina is the master of anti-matter. Everything scientifically has an opposite, for matter there is anti-matter, for good there is evil... etc.

Therefor, Arceus having created Giratina, which has also been made very clear, proves it created matter, and thus the world (The world is a pile of matter and anti-matter, along with areas of absence of matter)...

It has been put into consideration, but legends and myths from the games clearly state that Arceus was the first thing in the universe. Its all Myth and Legend, which is the same info that Mew has. Mew's myth and legend are less extravagant.

Gamefreak who created Pokemon said that so its a fact based on offical saying. By saying that they don't know what they are talking about you've discredited your own support so now your theory is simply, its this way cause I say its this way which makes it an opinion.

Either way, there is information supported by both the games and the Anime that say Arceus was the only thing in existence before any other Pokemon did. They give out more info as the games progress, but right now we have all the information we need. You can't really argue that Arceus wasn't first when both his in game Pokedex info and legends surrounding him, as well as the Anime both say the same thing. In game they even allow Arceus to create one of the three "Creation" Trio members.

In game events for mew don't have any support for it being first. Most just highlight how rare it is and/or its relation to Mewtwo.

If Gamefreak says it, then its a fact because its their world. They may contradict some small details, but they usually correct this later on. Still its a fact presented by Gamefreak Arceus came before Mew.

Giratina is the master of anti-matter. Everything scientifically has an opposite, for matter there is anti-matter, for good there is evil... etc.

Therefor, Arceus having created Giratina, which has also been made very clear, proves it created matter, and thus the world (The world is a pile of matter and anti-matter, along with areas of absence of matter)...

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To add to this. Arceus existed in nothingness. It "shaped" the world from absolutely nothing. Since it had nothing there to "shape" it had to create something to be able to shape the world into what it is now. So in order for it to take nothing and shape that into something it had to create materials. Using your example, you "create" a pot or urn by "shaping" clay into a desired form and shape. Once you've shaped it, you finished it by firing it in a kiln and decorate it. Once you've given it shape you changed clay into its new form and created a pot or an urn. You can play with words easily, but the meaning still exists. The world in the Pokemon Universe exists because of Arceus making it the creator and being the first Pokemon in existence gave it the name "Alpha" Pokemon.

XanderO said:

It has been put into consideration, but legends and myths from the games clearly state that Arceus was the first thing in the universe. Its all Myth and Legend, which is the same info that Mew has. Mew's myth and legend are less extravagant.

Gamefreak who created Pokemon said that so its a fact based on offical saying. By saying that they don't know what they are talking about you've discredited your own support so now your theory is simply, its this way cause I say its this way which makes it an opinion.

Either way, there is information supported by both the games and the Anime that say Arceus was the only thing in existence before any other Pokemon did. They give out more info as the games progress, but right now we have all the information we need. You can't really argue that Arceus wasn't first when both his in game Pokedex info and legends surrounding him, as well as the Anime both say the same thing. In game they even allow Arceus to create one of the three "Creation" Trio members.

In game events for mew don't have any support for it being first. Most just highlight how rare it is and/or its relation to Mewtwo.

If Gamefreak says it, then its a fact because its their world. They may contradict some small details, but they usually correct this later on. Still its a fact presented by Gamefreak Arceus came before Mew.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Actually, come to think of it there was never any mention the Mew created the world. It was said to be the ancestor of Pokemon, not the creator of Pokemon. As I have tried to make very clear, ancestor and creator are two completely different concepts.

*Ancestor: A person from whom one is descended, especially if more remote than a grandparent; a forebear.
*Creator: One that creates.

I think GameFreak put it in Pokemon scientist view, kinda like first person or whatever. They could be making the game based on what "scientist" have gathered up from research meaning it might not be true. You see scientist all over in game and they're always talking about Pokemon discoveries. Put it this way. Imagine the world of Pokemon being real and we're all the scientist trying to figure the universe and Pokemon development out. We find a little piece of evidence stating Arceus might of done this and Arceus might of done that when we might not be 100% right. Instead we go and put it in our studies and say, "Yes, this is how this happened and this is how this was created" and so forth. But we could be wrong. That's the way I think GameFreak is making the games. GameFreak is not just basing the game on the main character "us the player" they are also basing it on what scientist have found from they're studies meaning they could be right or they could be wrong. Only GameFreak knows the outcome, why do you think were talking about this now? If it was a fact that Arceus was created first then we wouldn't even be here, that's how I came up with the scientist point of views in game.

This is kinda the same concept of saying God is the creator of the universe when we the people don't know 100% sure of.

Even though in-game scientist support the Arceus creation theory since Arceus isn't an omni-potent being that can neither be seen or heard. Arceus even shows us his power in front of Cynthia who by her own rite is a researcher of Myths and Legends dealing around Sinnoh Pokemon.

Gamefreak gave us our info and from a science stand point, push Arceus as well since there is no other in game theories or even events to contradict Arceus' place of power. Even his Classification given to him by the scientists and researchers, calling him the "Alpha Pokemon", help his role. He is the top of the Pokemon world, the number one Pokemon. Again word play.

Mew didn't create anything. There was no game events or movies to help push this fact. Mew's reason for research is cause it can learn every TM, a trait no other Pokemon has as well as it being one of few Pokemon to exist since older times and still have very few living members.

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

I think GameFreak put it in Pokemon scientist view, kinda like first person or whatever. They could be making the game based on what "scientist" have gathered up from research meaning it might not be true. You see scientist all over in game and they're always talking about Pokemon discoveries. Put it this way. Imagine the world of Pokemon being real and we're all the scientist trying to figure the universe and Pokemon development out. We find a little piece of evidence stating Arceus might of done this and Arceus might of done that when we might not be 100% right. Instead we go and put it in our studies and say, "Yes, this is how this happened and this is how this was created" and so forth. But we could be wrong. That's the way I think GameFreak is making the games. GameFreak is not just basing the game on the main character "us the player" they are also basing it on what scientist have found from they're studies meaning they could be right or they could be wrong. Only GameFreak knows the outcome, why do you think were talking about this now? If it was a fact that Arceus was created first then we wouldn't even be here, that's how I came up with the scientist point of views in game.

This is kinda the same concept of saying God is the creator of the universe when we the people don't know 100% sure of.

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I see what you're getting at. However, the possibility that Game Freak is gonna use that as an excuse to dispute any assumptions they made previous to future generations is a long shot. I doubt they'd do such a thing, and thus we must turn towards the more probable explanation, and mind you, I say probable, not possible. Arceus created Mew, and other Pokemon spawned from Mew.

i am a Mewologist Not a Arceist
Reasons
1)Can use transform and metronome and learn every TM basically enabling it to use very move
2) Mew was viewed Powerful enough to clone If Arceus was God I'm sure he would have been cloned
3) Mew has every pokemon's DNA and hard to get how many Acreus' events are thier

Some of you are saying how Arceus can be all types, and Mew can learn any move, but really that means there is no difference between the two type and move wise, because since Mew can learn any move, it can be all types, and Arceus is all types therefore can learn any move. The only weakness would be Mew's natural type weakness, and Arceus' types.
Arceus fire weak against water.

PEDRO12 said:

I see what you're getting at. However, the possibility that Game Freak is gonna use that as an excuse to dispute any assumptions they made previous to future generations is a long shot. I doubt they'd do such a thing, and thus we must turn towards the more probable explanation, and mind you, I say probable, not possible. Arceus created Mew, and other Pokemon spawned from Mew.

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They're not gonna use it as an excuse. I can tell by the way it's scripted that it's in the scientist point of view. Just wait your gonna be coming back to this post when there's another Pokemon that GameFreak releases that say's it created Arceus not in those exact words but it's gonna say it's the creator beyond Arceus. Just like I had a feeling another Pokemon was gonna be discovered questioning Mew's creation. Then your gonna figure that I was right about the whole scientist point of view thing. Give it 3 years before they discover a Pokemon beyond Arceus's creation.

I say its very possible that GameFreak is using the scientist point of view. If they weren't then how would the game be getting this information, it's not like the Pokemon bible fell from the sky and they're using that. No, they're basing it off scientist discoveries. Every year the scientist find out more and more on they're theories and gain more knowledge to how it could of happened.

Just put it into the same concept as real life stuff. Evolution, big bang, God, etc. Real scientist are still trying to figure it out (probably never will).

And to whoever said something about it showing it's power to us. Did Arceus create a Pokemon in front of you? No. Did Arceus create another part of the world? No. Did Arceus ascend from the skies like it's the god of Pokemon and appear that it's the God? No. Plus that has nothing to do with GameFreak putting it into scientist point of view.

1) Smeargle can Sketch every move, that doesn't mean he's related to every Pokemon though. Smeargle is superior to mew in the "I can use any attack ever made" deparment, because unlike Mew who lacks the ability to learn the special Tutors, Smeargle can use every move in the Pokemon Arsenal except Chatter which Mew cannot use either.

2) Not viewed as powerful enough to clone. Mew was cloned because the rumor that it has every Pokemon's DNA (which neither the games nor the movies actually support. They stopped mentioning the DNA thing) Top that the fact that Arceus lives in another dimension that no one can get to while Mew exists in the same dimension as the trainers and has left traces of its own DNA somewhere made it easier to get to than Arceus.

3) Mew has had more events than Arceus. Mew's Event count is 14 Arceus's event count is 3. Both have fairly long lists but a majority of them listed on Arceus are two different events with extended times or locations. Such as Arceus' Movie Promo which is 1 type of Promo event, the Tour of Europe where they hit different malls and Arceus was a download and the PAL Global link distribution where Fans voted for his event. So Arceus is harder to get based on the Event giveaways.

Still in game proof, Arceus' Pokedex says it was born in nothing and used that nothing to shape the world we know. Mew doesn't say anything like that.

Didn't he descend from the skies in the movie/create a legendary in front of you in the Sinjoh Ruins?

Toujours said:

Didn't he descend from the skies in the movie/create a legendary in front of you in the Sinjoh Ruins?

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He opened a dimensional rift when he descended before.

When it showed him in the past he was out in space blowing up a meteor that was falling towards the planet. His plates were used to destroy it and were scattered about afterwards. When the human helped him recover, Arceus turned the desolate, lifeless wasteland into a paradise.

And yes, Arceus creates a Palkia, Giratina, or Dialga based on what circle you stand on in the Sinjoh Ruins.

I think a lot of assumptions are tied up in the word "god" that are being argued here when they don't really need to be. For example, I've seen the argument that Arceus can't be god because it doesn't have 9999 in each stat, or because it can be captured. We seem to equate "god" with "omnipotent", although it's highly possible that the creator of the Pokemon world is limited in its power. Maybe it drew its power from the possibilities of what it could create, and now that the world is pretty much set in what it's going to do, it has much more limited power? Maybe over time it used its powers less and less, becoming less powerful? Maybe its powers are imprecise and can't change small, specific events, but only massive life-changing ones.

XanderO said:

1) Still in game proof, Arceus' Pokedex says it was born in nothing and used that nothing to shape the world we know. Mew doesn't say anything like that.

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That's from scientist discoveries tho. That's what I've been trying to say the whole time. Everything we know about Pokemon from in game is based on scientific beliefs from scientist. That's how were getting all the information. If you disagree then would you please explain to me how were getting the information? Don't say cos it's fake, that's just a way out of the question.

And to whoever asked about Arceus creating a Pokemon in the Ruins. I stated MANY times that Arceus created Palkia, Giratina, and Dalgia. Plus the Anime and in game are COMPLETELY different.

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

And to whoever asked about Arceus creating a Pokemon in the Ruins. I stated MANY times that Arceus created Palkia, Giratina, and Dalgia. Plus the Anime and in game are COMPLETELY different.

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But in your last post you said:

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

Did Arceus create a Pokemon in front of you? No.

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So...which one do you believe?

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

That's from scientist discoveries tho. That's what I've been trying to say the whole time. Everything we know about Pokemon from in game is based on scientific beliefs from scientist. That's how were getting all the information. If you disagree then would you please explain to me how were getting the information? Don't say cos it's fake, that's just a way out of the question.

And to whoever asked about Arceus creating a Pokemon in the Ruins. I stated MANY times that Arceus created Palkia, Giratina, and Dalgia. Plus the Anime and in game are COMPLETELY different.

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No, that isn't what you've been saying. Pokedex, item created by scientists filled with info collected by scientists, says Arceus came first. You still argue that mew came first based on your opinions. All facts from the games say the opposite of what you say.

All the scientific proof from the games says the same thing the "religious" beliefs say. They are both the same information. You repeatedly put down Gamefreak as a source or claim and use them as a source or claim. You constantly contradict your sources and insert opinions in place of facts or use broken information from a source you discredited to push your idea up.

Gamefreak, the scientists that gamefreak make for their fictional world and the lore surrounding both Arceus and Mew give us information for both.

Arceus came first. It was the first Pokemon to exist in their world. It has the power to create other Pokemon which were responsible for creating space, time, and matter.

Mew is only known as the ancestor of modern Pokemon with about a hundred and one different theories as to why its known as an ancestor. Its only proof is its ability to learn all TMs, HMs, and Move Tutor attacks for current games, other than Volt Tackle (breeding Pikachu only), The elemental Hyperbeams (Fully evolved Starters only), the Pledges (Starters only), Draco Meteor (Dragon Types only and only Special Tutor that Arceus CAN legally acquire on his own with Draco Plate something Mew cannot do.), Secret Sword (Keldeo only), and Ancient Song (Meloetta only). This "Use all attacks" is a trait shared with Smeargle who, with Sketch, can use every attack known in the Pokemon Universe minus Chatter and Struggle.

All proof supported through all know Canon Media say the same thing, Arceus came before Mew.

XanderO said:

No, that isn't what you've been saying. Pokedex, item created by scientists filled with info collected by scientists, says Arceus came first. You still argue that mew came first based on your opinions. All facts from the games say the opposite of what you say.

All the scientific proof from the games says the same thing the "religious" beliefs say. They are both the same information. You repeatedly put down Gamefreak as a source or claim and use them as a source or claim. You constantly contradict your sources and insert opinions in place of facts or use broken information from a source you discredited to push your idea up.

Gamefreak, the scientists that gamefreak make for their fictional world and the lore surrounding both Arceus and Mew give us information for both.

Arceus came first. It was the first Pokemon to exist in their world. It has the power to create other Pokemon which were responsible for creating space, time, and matter.

Mew is only known as the ancestor of modern Pokemon with about a hundred and one different theories as to why its known as an ancestor. Its only proof is its ability to learn all TMs, HMs, and Move Tutor attacks for current games, other than Volt Tackle (breeding Pikachu only), The elemental Hyperbeams (Fully evolved Starters only), the Pledges (Starters only), Draco Meteor (Dragon Types only and only Special Tutor that Arceus CAN legally acquire on his own with Draco Plate something Mew cannot do.), Secret Sword (Keldeo only), and Ancient Song (Meloetta only). This "Use all attacks" is a trait shared with Smeargle who, with Sketch, can use every attack known in the Pokemon Universe minus Chatter and Struggle.

All proof supported through all know Canon Media say the same thing, Arceus came before Mew.

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Your obviously not getting what I'm saying. GameFreak puts it in scientist view. The game is based on scientist views. GameFreak knows what they're doing and they're doing it so we can question if its true or not. Why do you think there's scientist in game talking about stuff like this? Cos GameFreak bases it on scientist discoveries. GameFreak know's they're basing it off scientist discoveries cos they made the game like that.

Examples:
Pokedex: GameFreak came out with what you call a Pokedex in the first ever Generation games. It's used to collect data from Pokemon.
How do you think the information got there? Obviously from GameFreak but it's scientist beliefs in the game.

Prof. Oak, Elm, Birch, etc:
Every region has they're own Pokemon researcher again I know GameFreak made them and scripted it but they're role in the game is to find out everything about Pokemon and how they were created and stuff. The information you got is from them and they're scientist once again I think I told you this 3 or 4 times. Meaning it's based on scientist discoveries.

Once again I know GameFreak made the Pokedex but they made IN GAME scientist discoveries or theories.

If you don't understand what I'm saying then idk what to tell you, and if you don't believe everything is scientist discovered in game then idk what to tell you other then go work for GameFreak and figure it out on your own.

I never once said that everything in the Pokedex wasn't made by scientists. Professor Oak designed and programmed the first Pokedex. He put in all the information he had collected into the Pokedex and charged his own Grandson and one other young man with filling out everything else.

Generation 2 Professor Oak did the same thing in Johto with the main characters there.

This continues with each new professor in each new region. Each compile the information they had and programmed them into the Pokedexes for trainers to use to complete the data.

This is a well known thing to anyone whose played the game for as long as I have which is from its release in America. I've repeatedly said that the info in the Pokedex is information from scientists. You have been the only person to discredit anything from official sources. I have used the Pokedex in nearly all of my posts where I needed to quote from it. Still the information all says the same thing. Arceus came before Mew.

You refuse to see what others are saying. We are saying that the games say the same thing we've been repeating. The games say, in every aspect, Arceus came before Mew.

If Gamefreak says it, its true. Everything about the games is from Gamefreak including the Pokedex, including the scientists, including all the facts and myths and legends. Everything is from Gamefreak and everything from Gamefreak is a fact in regards to the Pokemon World.

mew was patin before pokemon mew is the 1st phantom pokemon mew is the only pokemon whos wasnt supposed to capture while arceus is given to you through events

First off, the anime and the games are different in everything, except the information. When the games say Pikachu is an Electric type, the anime says Pikachu is an Electric type, and so on. And we're talking about Pokemon in general, so it's wrong to base any and all proof you come up with, on one or the other.

Now, I understand what you're trying to say. The info in the Pokedex and such were discovered by scientists in the Pokemon world, who might have been wrong. But still, has Game Freak ever purposefully contradicted itself to create new information? No. If they ever do, do you know how skeptic the audience will become? Like, you already said Arceus created the world, now you're saying otherwise? There was enough criticism when the anime contradicted itself by mistake regarding small pieces of information, take a guess as to how the crowd will react to something at such a large scale.

They wouldn't do it. Like I said earlier, I'm not completely side-tracking your theory, I'm just saying it's a very long shot, and since there are two possibilities as of now:

• Arceus created the world.
• Game Freak is gonna announce the actual creator of the world, or of Arceus itself.

Seeing as how that second choice is far-fetched, we can but only turn to the other choice, so we have to at least convince ourselves that Arceus created the world, until proven otherwise. We could consider the possibility of what you're saying, but it's not enough to only speculate at such a large scale.