• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

The Syrian Civil War Thread

BraveNewWorld

The Breaker
230
Posts
11
Years
I don't know what happened to France, or why they hate Syria, but they're damn giddy to get to some bombing. "All options are on the table." - François Hollande, President of France {XD}

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-british-help-says-president/article14036577/
French military analysts say France's most likely role would be from the air, including use of Scalp cruise missiles that have a range of about 500 kilometres (300 miles), fired from Mirage and Rafale fighter jets. French fighters could likely fly directly from mainland France — much as they did at the start of a military campaign against Islamic radicals in Mali earlier this year — with support from refuelling aircraft. France also has six Rafale jets at Al Dhafra air base, near Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates on the Persian Gulf, and 7 Mirage-2000 jets at an air base in Djibouti, on the Red Sea.

Too much money and too many jobs wrapped up in the American military. If an opportunity arises for military action it has to be taken. As is life in a military industrial complex.
 
2,138
Posts
11
Years
I don't know what happened to France, or why they hate Syria... President of France {XD}

I would bet it has much to do with the French colonization of Syria in the early 1900's, conflict between France and Syrian government over authority.

European colonization has ruined the middle east, and the many country's relationships with European nations.
 

BraveNewWorld

The Breaker
230
Posts
11
Years
Just watched Obama's address on Syria.

Things that he went over for those who didn't see it.

Came out firing (bad analogy?). Mentioning the Syrian government deliberately rounding up their own men, women, and children and killing them. United States certain that chemical weapons were used.

Brought up a good point about upholding international war crime laws.

Condemned most of the world for not caring about breach of war crime laws - chemical weapons.

Specifically chastised the British Parliament for failing to uphold said laws. Praised Cameron, though.

Said that Congress will hold a vote at their next session on military action in Syria. (Congress next meets September 9th.
 
5,983
Posts
15
Years
Putin told journalists that if Obama had evidence Assad's forces had the chemical weapons and launched the attack, Washington should present it to the U.N. weapons inspectors and the Security Council.

This is true, however. The US certainly tried to do this to the best of their ability prior to the Iraq invasion. I suspect it could be shrewd political calculation to get the vote for intervention out of the way in the UK and Germany, instead of having the vote after such evidence is presented - as more MPs would be pressured to vote yes. Evidence before the UN is probably the best way to get a mandate for intervention. But it doesn't have to happen.

Also, my appraisal of how well a coalition would work out earlier is underinformed and probably a bit too pessimistic. I generalized their The opposition is united and they have diplomatic recognition - though only by certain NATO and Gulf countries.

What they need, however, is teeth but I'm not sure how effective and moral it would be to pick winners. In addition, lot of people in the Middle East will be scared by another Western intervention. And most of us, citizens, oppose interventions by our own countries. The European economy is projected to pick up again soon, but unemployment is still high. And the US isn't running Clinton surpluses anymore. I suppose the coalition could take a backseat role with airstrikes so it wouldn't piss off us civies much.
 

zakisrage

In the trunk on Highway 10
500
Posts
10
Years
Not to mention that there's thousands of Syrian refugees in Lebanon, Turkey, and Egypt. And the sad thing is that many of the people in those countries haven't been receptive to the new arrivals. Turkey and Syria hate each other because of a border dispute from the 1930s. The Egyptians and Lebanese have also been very hostile, even though they are fellow Arab countries.

I think this invasion is a good idea. al-Assad is a monster and needs to be removed. I really want the Syrians to have a better government, and try not to let the Islamists take over.

And you're right about France and Syria hating each other. I'm from Lebanon, which was also taken by France. Lebanon has a much more positive relationship with France. Still, a lot of people here hate the French. My maternal grandma's parents never forgave France for taking over Lebanon. They hated everything French and spoke only Arabic. (Many upper-class Christians preferred not to speak Arabic, and a lot of them preferred using French names for their children instead of Arabic names. Arabic was seen as something that Muslims, Druze, and lower-class Christians used.)
 
Last edited:

Sir Codin

Guest
0
Posts
Problem is, zaki, is that the rebels the Assad regime are fighting against aren't really made up of saints, either. They're mostly absorbed into the Al-Nursa front, which is essentially al-Qaeda's Syrian branch. I don't think aiding the rebels is necessarily a good idea. Scarf is correct in that we should probably provide humanitarian aide to the refugee's, but no, everybody's busy preparing for military action instead.
 
5,983
Posts
15
Years
Mmhm it's going to be an incredible balancing act. This kind of reminds me of the Chinese Civil War, when the Communists and Nationalists (Islamists & moderates) fought on a united front against the Japanese invasion (Baath Party) - and then duked it out amongst themselves once the greater threat was taken out.

Israeli citizens seem to be in gogogo mode. We mustn't forget there are other players here with their own agendas.
 
2,138
Posts
11
Years
The US and others should provide humanitarian aid instead of weapons and military intervention.

I wish this could be done, but history demonstrates otherwise. For instance, during the Rwanda Crisis of 1994, the Clinton Administration decided to use non-military force and provide humanitarian aid. We sent humanitarian aid via airdrops; however, the supplies were intercepted by militant forces of the regime and the US soldiers sent to oversee peaceful distribution of the supplies were quickly driven out. If we are to aid in this fashion, we can only do so using some sort of military force in order to protect our soldiers and ensure the supplies are distributed to citizens rather than the Assad Regime. Though, using military action, like you point out, could be high caustic to international relations. Therefore, humanitarian aid may not be a viable option.
 
5,983
Posts
15
Years
It's still lighter than military strikes, if anything. If you can't send humanitarian aid, I wouldn't see how you could do anything at all. The go-ahead for a military intervention awaits approval from Congress in the US.
 
14,092
Posts
14
Years
Asking for congressional approval first is a great breath of fresh air, compared to invading other nations all willy-nilly using vague war power statutes. A step in the right direction.
 

KingCharizard

C++ Developer Extraordinaire
1,229
Posts
14
Years
Asking for congressional approval first is a great breath of fresh air, compared to invading other nations all willy-nilly using vague war power statutes. A step in the right direction.

I agree, but from his speech it sounded like he was going in anyways this was just a formality...

I think this invasion is a good idea. al-Assad is a monster and needs to be removed. I really want the Syrians to have a better government, and try not to let the Islamists take over.

I think Obama has already said he is not interested in regime change, so his military action is not aimed at that...

I think we should stay out of it completely, no humanitarian aid, no boots on the ground, no air strike.. Let the surrounding countries offer aid, why doesn't Israel get off its high horse and offer some help.
Since Iran liked Syria so much why dont they offer aid? The rebels started this war let them finish it.. Did everyone forget war is nasty and you must do nasty things to win, its that simple.. People are so soft these days.
 

KingCharizard

C++ Developer Extraordinaire
1,229
Posts
14
Years
He's not that stupid, to ask for congressional approval, then ignore what they say (If they were to rule out U.S. involvement). Too much political blow-back and repercussions.

True but at this point what has he got to lose? Dems already have a slight majority in the senate, and congress is filled with republicans so I dont really see a downside to him going with the strike even if they say no. Its not like Obama could be impeached.

This was taken from a news article.

Does Obama really have to wait for Congress' green light?
Technically, no. The 1973 War Powers Act allows the president to launch military action, but he must notify Congress within 48 hours. But just because he can doesn't mean he will. "While I believe I have the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization, I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course, and our actions will be even more effective," he said Saturday. "We should have this debate, because the issues are too big for business as usual."
 
5,983
Posts
15
Years
I think it's a good idea he did ask for congressional approval. The American public would much rather see military action as the result of calculated debate as well as cross-partisan support. Support is iffy in both parties. Technically no, but the rest of us outside of the President's inner circle want to feel included in the decision making too.
 

KingCharizard

C++ Developer Extraordinaire
1,229
Posts
14
Years
Now they are talking about aiding the Rebels
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/02/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I thought the Rebels were mostly made up of Al Qaeda supporters/followers... So were in the business of aiding our enemies if it means getting rid of a leader we dont agree with, god i wish someone would do that to the USA put us in our damn place and make us mind our own business. The US is like a big bully, who when confronted about being a bully by his parents, says, Im teaching them life is hard you gotta be willing to fight back or you're gonna lose everything to justify his bullying to try to make it seem right..

No matter how you look at it, its not right and neither is our meddling....
 
14,092
Posts
14
Years
The Senate has passed a resolution to aide the Syrian rebels, but with no U.S. troop commitments. So it'll be airstrikes/drones/naval support from the fleet in the Mediterranean.
 

Silais

That useless reptile
297
Posts
10
Years
  • Seen Jul 17, 2016
Why does the government care so much about chemical weapons now when there have been times where we've completely ignored the use of chemical weapons by other countries? The "threat" of chemical weapons is an obvious facade to cover up the true intentions of the president and the government.
 

Mr. X

It's... kinda effective?
2,391
Posts
17
Years
I wonder...

If the US is going to punish Assad for using chemical weapons, what will Britain's punishment be for providing them? They sold Syria mass quantities of chemicals easily combinable into Sarin, after the civil war started. They sold them chemicals to make Sarin, when fears were arising that he was or either would start using chemical weapons.

That said, it's sad that we are getting involved in this. Neither side is one we should be supporting, Assad for his use of chemical weapons, or the Rebels who are receiving a lot of support from a terrorist group that has attacked us numerous times in the past.

I suppose that this is a prime example of screwed if you do, ****ed if you don't. Providing support for the Rebels is support by proxy of Al Qaeda, and people will call the US's refusal to aid the rebels as supporting Assad.

Once we take out Assad, then what? The rebels, backed by Al Qaeda, will move to establish a new government. And for Al Qaeda, they will have ripe new grounds to expand.

Either way, when it comes to Syria, the US is going to get screwed over.

Even then, I don't see what the US hopes to accomplish. Apparently we plan to attack Syria for humanitarian reasons? Well, I suppose that our opinions differ, but I don't really see how missiles and bombs can be used to provide humanitarian aid to a country. Perhaps we are going to fill them with medical supplies instead of the standard explosives? Although, if we do end up bombing Syria, I really hope that our accuracy has improved since Iraq - We ended up killing many civilians, many children (Ironically, the ones that we were 'trying' to protect, 'trying' to 'save'.) when we decided to bomb Iraq.
 
5,983
Posts
15
Years
I found my notes on responsibility to protect!

Okay okay okay. So military interventions are often fraught with moral issues - sometimes you do it, sometimes you don't, but when you do it's to support the team you like. So begged the question, when would it be appropriate to intervene for humanitarian reasons? Well, a couple of smart dudes, mostly Canadian, framed it as a responsibility to protect - that states have a responsibility to protect its populations from certain mass crimes, and that the international community will help a state achieve this end, and if it fails, step in to fulfill that responsibility. Notice how it's framed as a responsibility - under such a norm you "must". The details are often iffy yadda yadda, but it's a great idea in principle, it makes sense, and I haven't heard any disagreements against that yet.

The best bit of the argument to me is that states have responsibilities, in addition to its sovereign rights. If sovereign rights were all that's needed to justify a state's action, then human rights would be absolutely meaningless. So logic = win, and apply that responsibility not to states only, but to the international humanity and you have R2P in a nutshell.

Some caveats: humanitarian intent? haha, no - Libya turned into regime change. An intervention would also need a reasonable prospect of success, and I'm sure all those intervening hope for it. But can they deliver it? and at a cost we citizens can stomach? It should also have approval by proper authorities. The Arab League calls for an intervention from the UN and the international community - it'll probably get one, but only from one of the two. The UN is the ultimate authority, in the ideal and principled sense, but should lack of UN decision mean an intervention should not proceed? Lastly, one that is well expressed in this thread so far - it doesn't work.

There is another interesting criticism in my notes: that a Western intervention isn't about them, but us - that the West would do such a thing to feel all good and "Western", about maintaining the West's prestige and image. It's a very interesting one, because of course you're saving lives and nobody should decry that as a bad thing, but it's all self-aggrandizement in the end, is it? Compare it to rich people donating their wealth so they can leave behind a "legacy": noble or douchey? Can it be both?


Please don't auto-combine ><

UN chief warns against strikes on Syria
Ban Ki-moon says that military action against Syria could lead to a worsening of sectarian violence in the country.

Quote:
UN chief Ban Ki-moon has made an impassioned plea against military action in Syria, warning that it could spark further sectarian violence in a country already suffering from a humanitarian crisis "unprecedented" in recent history.

Speaking at a humanitarian meeting hosted by Britain on the sidelines of the G20 summit on Friday, Ban called on world powers to put aside their differences over the Syrian conflict, and to take concerted action to get desperately needed aid to the population.

"I must warn that ill-considered military action could cause serious and tragic consequences, and with an increased threat of further sectarian violence," Ban said.

About a third of Syria's pre-war 20.8 million population has fled abroad or have been forced from their homes during the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad's regime which is now in its third year, UN refugee agency data showed.

"This is a humanitarian crisis of unprecedented proportions in recent history," Ban said.

But "as some flee the country, others dig in to fight," Ban said, pointing to the need therefore to "avoid further militarisation of the conflict and revitalise the search for a political settlement instead."

With a political solution proving elusive as world leaders dig in their heels over their entrenched positions, Ban called for unity in securing humanitarian aid for the population.

Food aid shortage

A funding shortage was also threatening to leave refugees in neighbouring countries with no food, he said, adding that stocks would run out within days in Lebanon and within two weeks in Jordan.

"The world must do everything within its powers to stop the suffering of the Syrian people. Let us use this united recognition of the problem as our starting point for focused and positive action," he said.

"Your support in exercising leverage on all parties to facilitate humanitarian access is critical."

On Thursday, the UN refugee agency said that from October, it will have to cut food aid to more than a quarter of Syrian refugees in Lebanon...
From the UN top dog, unintended consequences? As an advocate and moderator, his opinion must count for something, even if he has no real power. He didn't say how he would come to this conclusion, but perhaps (US limited scope intervention) + (Syria disintegrating already) = (Syria disintegrating faster in the wake of an intervention with nothing done about it because that's not what the US is going there for). Thoughts?



Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...721727957.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top