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WHAT IS OP?
FireRed hack: Pokémon Throwback v211001: Kanto, Your Way
- Thread starter RichterSnipes
- Start date
RichterSnipes
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EDIT: Never mind. Super Leo, I'm fairly convinced that you're just trolling now.
No problem! It's something we all run into once in awhile. I'm really appreciative of these issues being brought up to me. I don't find them acceptable to keep in the hack in any sense.
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Hey Richter, found your hack when I was looking for a Fire Red hack to play a few days ago - like many people, I just want to be able to complete the Pokedex without significantly changing the overall experience. Your hack is, obviously, perfect for this - and luckily, your further changes only assist with the experience. I especially appreciate the change to TM behaviour, it's much more appropriate for a completionist to have one of each. Anyway, I'm around halfway through (may or may not be continuing due to forgetting to save for a few hours before closing the game) and I have a number of things I want to ask about and request.
First question: How do I obtain the second Hitmon from the Saffron fighting dojo? This is not accusatory - I'm just curious because I don't seem to be able to take both of them at this stage, and I don't believe they're otherwise obtainable?
Second: Are you sure giving the second fossil Pokemon to players in revived form before they've had the opportunity to revive the one they chose is a good idea? I quite like the event that you've set up, but I feel like the second fossil Pokemon should be obtained after the player reaches Cinnibar. The way it is, it feels like a strange reverse-choice of preference.
Now, a few things on decapitalisation. When selling items at a Pokemart, the bracketed plural remains capitalised. Eg: "Turned over the Calcium(S) worth $4900."
The other main decapitalisation issue is that, when naming my character, I'm stuck either SHOUTING or having an ugly looking field menu. Given the menus are consistently in all-caps, the best solution I can think of would be to somehow make the player's name SHOUT in the field menu. Would that be at all possible? I'm sure you've already deliberated on this issue, but it's the kind of thing that will never stop bothering me.
Now, given your announcement of an overhaul, I'm curious as to what you're planning, and would appreciate it if you were willing to share some details. I understand if you don't want to say anything though. Though I'm not quite an 'obsessive' Pokemon fan, I'm an obsessive person by nature and I believe we have similar ideals (our major difference being my complete lack of Pokemon hacking skills). Feel free to consult me on anything - though you obviously know what you're doing and I don't expect you to care about what I have to say.
Anyway, here are a few things I would like to see in the future.
- An option for removal of trade evolutions
I understand that you want your hack to remain compatible with main-line games, but for those of us who are just playing for fun/nostalgia and have no desire to socialise or set up a convoluted method of trading on an emulator, it's more convenient to actually be able to raise these lines of Pokemon through all their forms. I'd suggest evolution via happiness, rather than a specific level - or in the case of item-trade evolutions, simply using the item as with evolution stones.
- An option for limited starter availability
I realise this goes against the design of every single Pokemon game (hence it being an optional patch) but it does bother me that the starters are supposed to be native to the Kanto region and yet are so totally unobtainable. Having them appear very rarely in logical late-game locations as an alternative to the events you've set up would be nice to have as an option.
- A battle with Professor Oak as the True Final Boss
I think this would be a good way to conclude the game. In fact, I think it would be a nice reward for completing the Pokedex. Given it was dummied out of Red/Blue during development, it's not an entirely baseless addition for Throwback, and makes at least some sense to include as part of your hack. It also doesn't hurt the game in any way to add this. The only question is what music should be used....
I think you should also look into setting up some kind of auto-patcher along the lines of Tiddles' Sonic 3 Complete hack - tiddles (dot) org (slash) s3c and click 'Customise' if you haven't seen it. This would really help with people who want their game customised exactly the way they want it (though I imagine it's a lot of work to set up, and would likely lead to all kinds of bugs). For example, I wouldn't mind having the various early tutorials restored.
Anyway, thanks for reading, sorry about the length and rambling, and I hope you make good progress on your hack soon. It really is wonderful work you've done so far.
First question: How do I obtain the second Hitmon from the Saffron fighting dojo? This is not accusatory - I'm just curious because I don't seem to be able to take both of them at this stage, and I don't believe they're otherwise obtainable?
Second: Are you sure giving the second fossil Pokemon to players in revived form before they've had the opportunity to revive the one they chose is a good idea? I quite like the event that you've set up, but I feel like the second fossil Pokemon should be obtained after the player reaches Cinnibar. The way it is, it feels like a strange reverse-choice of preference.
Now, a few things on decapitalisation. When selling items at a Pokemart, the bracketed plural remains capitalised. Eg: "Turned over the Calcium(S) worth $4900."
The other main decapitalisation issue is that, when naming my character, I'm stuck either SHOUTING or having an ugly looking field menu. Given the menus are consistently in all-caps, the best solution I can think of would be to somehow make the player's name SHOUT in the field menu. Would that be at all possible? I'm sure you've already deliberated on this issue, but it's the kind of thing that will never stop bothering me.
Now, given your announcement of an overhaul, I'm curious as to what you're planning, and would appreciate it if you were willing to share some details. I understand if you don't want to say anything though. Though I'm not quite an 'obsessive' Pokemon fan, I'm an obsessive person by nature and I believe we have similar ideals (our major difference being my complete lack of Pokemon hacking skills). Feel free to consult me on anything - though you obviously know what you're doing and I don't expect you to care about what I have to say.
Anyway, here are a few things I would like to see in the future.
- An option for removal of trade evolutions
I understand that you want your hack to remain compatible with main-line games, but for those of us who are just playing for fun/nostalgia and have no desire to socialise or set up a convoluted method of trading on an emulator, it's more convenient to actually be able to raise these lines of Pokemon through all their forms. I'd suggest evolution via happiness, rather than a specific level - or in the case of item-trade evolutions, simply using the item as with evolution stones.
- An option for limited starter availability
I realise this goes against the design of every single Pokemon game (hence it being an optional patch) but it does bother me that the starters are supposed to be native to the Kanto region and yet are so totally unobtainable. Having them appear very rarely in logical late-game locations as an alternative to the events you've set up would be nice to have as an option.
- A battle with Professor Oak as the True Final Boss
I think this would be a good way to conclude the game. In fact, I think it would be a nice reward for completing the Pokedex. Given it was dummied out of Red/Blue during development, it's not an entirely baseless addition for Throwback, and makes at least some sense to include as part of your hack. It also doesn't hurt the game in any way to add this. The only question is what music should be used....
I think you should also look into setting up some kind of auto-patcher along the lines of Tiddles' Sonic 3 Complete hack - tiddles (dot) org (slash) s3c and click 'Customise' if you haven't seen it. This would really help with people who want their game customised exactly the way they want it (though I imagine it's a lot of work to set up, and would likely lead to all kinds of bugs). For example, I wouldn't mind having the various early tutorials restored.
Anyway, thanks for reading, sorry about the length and rambling, and I hope you make good progress on your hack soon. It really is wonderful work you've done so far.
RichterSnipes
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I'm happy that you're enjoying the hack! I'll try to answer your questions as concisely as possible.
Breed your chosen Hitmon with a Ditto, then raise that Tyrogue into the other Hitmon. Don't forget to do it again to also get a Hitmontop!
The reason I have the event occur in Fuchsia is because of a particular map event that occurs both there and the original games: Whichever fossil Pokémon you choose in Mt. Moon, the opposite will appear on display just outside the Safari Zone.
I could make the event more sophisticated and require sending the player to Cinnabar first before progressing in it in the future, if that's what you're thinking. I can see where you say that it'd make sense to get there first before enjoying any spoils of fossil Pokémon.
On the first thing: I thought I corrected that awhile ago. Maybe there's a different ASM check for selling items than there is for receiving them. I'll put up a fix for that if I find it.
And on the field menu: I've already stated that that's how it is in the official games. Have you not played any of the more recent entries in the series on the (3)DS? It might seem weird, but that's how it is.
The only reason I've been so vague on details thus far is because I'm still not sure what all I'll be changing up until it's released. I'm still figuring out some new tricks with hacking these games, so it'll all depend on how far I develop my skills and understanding. Just don't count on me fully learning ASM for this! It'll be awhile before the overhaul is ready for release. All I can promise is that I'll have it out sometime before this calendar year is over.
I've finished the Wardrobe overhaul, though. Here's just a few highlights:
- All retro sprites redone to look more professional.
- Shoe colors changed to their original colors.
- Badge patches removed from the player character's hat; they're a Red/Green development stage carryover, not part of the final look.
- Flying sprites changed; you may have noticed that they are still the default FR/LG sprites even after using the Wardrobe/full patch.
Unfortunately, I won't be faltering from this stance. Changing that not only breaks compatibility, it breaks series canon. That's something I will not do in any of my supported augmentations to the game... But, depending on if I can create a fully functional tool for it, I could offer an alternative for it. Just note that if I do, it'd be entirely unsupported by me. You'd have to use it at your own discretion.
The ideal fix for me would be to find a way to simulate trading in-game so that you can evolve those Pokémon as necessary. Since I don't think I'll be able to ever do that myself, I'll share my idea that I've had for a long time. Once you go to Bill's cottage on Route 25, help him, and get the S.S. Ticket, you'd be able to use his teleportation/transformation machine yourself with your own Pokémon. Putting most Pokémon in there would do nothing except for eject it on the other side, but putting a Pokémon that evolves via trade in there (with the right conditions in terms of Hold Items) would cause it to evolve, animation and all. It'd be read ingame as a trade evolution, so they'd also still be able to evolve via an actual trade.
Have you looked at the included Event Guide yet? If you have, you'd have seen that I've added events to make the other two Kanto starters obtainable. There's also a way to get all three Johto starters.
Someone else suggested this before. I personally believe that the leftover Oak battle in R/G/B/Y is a relic of earlier game development. The final battle in both games almost entirely replicates the same Pokémon team, so that suggests to me that Oak was either planned to be the Pokémon Champion instead of the person who is in the final game (yeah, yeah, I know everyone knows who it is by now, but I still don't like to spoil things), or that he was just used as a test battle. I could do something about that team, but I have no solid plans for it. One thing's for sure, though: You will not be battling Professor Oak.
A few things about that:
- Sonic 3 Complete is awesome, and I suggest that anyone who wants to play Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) look at that.
- My previous comment is biased because I actually contributed to S3C! I did so under the username "That One Jig." I was the one who brought in the "original" sprites for Sonic (both S1 and S2 styles) and made various other graphical fixes for it. It was actually my work on that hack that made me want to make a hack like that of my own. And thus Throwback was born. I haven't contributed to it or checked in on it - or even seriously played any version of Sonic 3, for that matter - for around two or three years now, but I hope Tiddles is doing well.
- It's (hopefully!) in the works, as I stated earlier in this post. Utmost customization of things is something I'm a huge fan of, and I really hope I can offer that for Throwback in the future. I don't have a lot of coding knowledge, so there's a lot of ways this effort can blow up in my face. Note that it'll have to be offline, unlike the one used for S3C. You don't want Nintendo to send a Cease & Desist to my doorstep, do you?
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Deokishisu
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I love your work, and am currently using your basic patch (the one that only adds the music and GB Player functionality) as a base for a side project I'm working on sporadically. Could you specify exactly what this planned overhaul (which sounds amazing) entails? Are you somehow improving the authenticity of the music? Did you find a way to compress the old cries more so they take up less space?
Basically, are the changes going to be so significant that I should start porting resources out of my side project so they can easily be inserted into this new, overhauled base? Especially considering that I don't use any of your graphical assets, the wild Pokemon table changes, nor the decapitalization changes?
Basically, are the changes going to be so significant that I should start porting resources out of my side project so they can easily be inserted into this new, overhauled base? Especially considering that I don't use any of your graphical assets, the wild Pokemon table changes, nor the decapitalization changes?
RichterSnipes
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Yeah, I'm doing some massive rewrites to the 8-bit music right now. I've found several subtle errors in certain songs. I'm also reworking stereo panning to something that fits on a per-song basis and redoing the voice table to best suit the music from the original games. A few "custom" tracks will be reverted to what they were in R/G/B/Y, and a couple more tracks from those games will make it into the patch. I'm hoping that, sans a few pesky things - modulation, arpeggiation via duty shifting, and pitch bending - will be as close to 100% accurate as possible given the GB Synth's slight differences from the way the Gen 1 games handle music.
I'll just put it this way: I expect save states using the GB Player patch as it currently is to gloriously break once the overhaul is released.
Deokishisu
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Sounds great. I hope you can also rip and port the minor sound effects, like jumping over ledges, for example. If you could, it would be really great if you were able to include some Yellow tracks as well (such as the intro track, encountering the Rocket Duo, the Pikachu Surfing minigame, the Game Boy Printer waiting screen, are there any other exclusives?) and hide them in there for people who want to use them, even if they don't have GBA counterparts. I'm pretty sure all the Yellow exclusive tracks are in the same soundbank in Yellow, so they'd be easy to track down. And I've said track so often in this post that it doesn't seem like a word anymore.
Anyway, psyched for the release and I appreciate your hard work, the eye for quality, and the desire to have the music sound as authentic as possible. Keep up the awesome job!
RichterSnipes
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I'll see what sounds I can do that with. It'd only extend to OW sounds, though. I can't change the battle sound effects due to how the animations have changed.
The Pikachu's Beach theme will play when doing one of the two minigames at Two Island (Wireless Adapter and friends required). The GBP tune will play while in the Mystery Connection screen. I've already finished work on the former, and I should be able to do the latter in a short period of time. I don't think I'll have a place for those other two themes in the hack. There is one more song exclusive to Yellow, but it's actually unused in that game.
Also, in technical terms, you should actually just say "song/tune/theme" instead. "Track" is used for the individually-compiled parts for each song. Each GB Synth sound channel used in a given song, for instance, typically constitutes as a whole track. ;)
Thanks! If you can't wait for too long for the full thing to be finished, I could always PM you a patch with the overhauled 8-Bit music. That's still not done, but I can get it in a fully-functional state with various (but not all intended) improvements done awhile before work on the entire hack is done.
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Will the overhauled hack be compatible with saves from the current version?
RichterSnipes
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Actual game saves? Yes. I will never make a modification that intentionally breaks those.
RichterSnipes
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Okay, so two things:
First, it turns out the capitalized "(S)" was just part of a text string after all. I fixed it, but I won't be uploading a bug fix yet. It seems kind of extreme to put up an update that changes only a single byte of the game's code.
And second, I learned that the Game Boy Printer music is, largely, just a slowed down version of the triangle wave track used for the Pikachu's Beach music.
Mind = Blown.
First, it turns out the capitalized "(S)" was just part of a text string after all. I fixed it, but I won't be uploading a bug fix yet. It seems kind of extreme to put up an update that changes only a single byte of the game's code.
And second, I learned that the Game Boy Printer music is, largely, just a slowed down version of the triangle wave track used for the Pikachu's Beach music.
Mind = Blown.
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Hey, I just discovered this rom hack and I can't play it. I noticed that you said it should work on actual hardware. Does that mean it doesn't work on emulators? I tried visual boy advanced on pc and my boy! on android, both crash immediately.
RichterSnipes
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I feel for those who can't read English and thus can't enjoy all the multitude of game hacks that are being made, especially for RPGs such as Pokémon. I don't know if anyone supports any non-English versions of Pokémon games besides those who are multilingual themselves (or don't speak English, for that matter). If I wanted to support the other versions, I'd have to make versions of my hack for the Japanese, Spanish, French, German, and Italian releases of the games. You could imagine that that'd take a lot of effort, time and reorganization on my end. Heck, I don't even support one of the English versions of the game! I'd have to add support for that, too! Even if it was selective support such as the case for the GB music, I'd need to keep in mind that that specific part of the hack needs to be updated for all languages if I make more changes to it. And don't forget the fact that I only speak English. You don't want me running these phrases straight through Google Translate, do you? :)
I won't say never to that, but it's definitely not a priority for me to support non-English versions of the game. I'm really sorry about that!
Are you sure you applied the patch to the right ROM? Properly-made hash checkers should give you the following MD5 sum for the clean ROM:
Code:
E26EE0D44E809351C8CE2D73C7400CDD- 2
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Jesus, it's been so long since I meant to reply to this. Sorry, Richter. Usually I'm a lot better with speedy replies.
(Don't take that as a criticism of Tiddles, obviously. He always presented his reasons for not wanting to do it, and I don't consider "not agreeing with me 100% on everything all the time" a flaw in others. And of course, the same extends to you.)
1. Once again, I must admit I completely forgot about breeding. So the first reason I had is moot. Never mind.
2. It always felt a bit weird to me that the starter Pokemon families, supposedly "native" to the region, don't actually live anywhere in the region. There's a part of me that likes seeing that remedied.
3. The main reason I asked about this is actually because the best "catch 'em all" mods I've seen for Emerald also do this, and I'd like to have mods of both GBA adventures that behave consistently and are 100% completable. On that note...
Would you consider doing a version of your "Catch 'em all" mod (and the extras) for Emerald? There are some good ones out there, but I would love if you could make one consistent with Throwback. At least you wouldn't have to worry about wardrobe and GB Player mods :D
(And if you dare suggest I play ORAS if I want a proper Hoenn adventure, I will make an extremely annoyed face. Emerald is ten times the game ORAS will ever be.)
I hope this reply makes sense. I'm a bit sleepy right now...
Ah yes. Somehow I always seem to forget about breeding in Kanto games. The Johto-introduced members of the Hitmon family also totally slipped my mind. That's probably because I've never actually played through a Johto game... Sorry for that question, it must've seemed a bit asinine. I guess I was also thinking of this mod as a "Kanto Dex completable within Kanto content" sort of thing, but I certainly don't mind that it's not, given it's still a complete game.
That is essentially what I was thinking, yes. The fossil you choose at Mt. Moon should be the first fossil Pokemon you can obtain, otherwise the choice is used against you.
I honestly did not believe you. Then I checked, and dear GOD you're right. How did I never notice that? Even so, it's not particularly bothersome on the 3DS because the menu items are far enough away that it doesn't catch my eye. On the GBA it drives me absolutely crazy, so I implore you to do something about it regardless of "series canon" in this instance.
Fair enough, I suppose. I can accept that we have different ideals.
...Please make this happen. Somehow. This absolutely needs to happen.
Damn :D This reminds me of the email conversations I had with Tiddles when S3C was being worked on. Many of them can be reduced to "I think you should do this!" "No." "But!" "No".
(Don't take that as a criticism of Tiddles, obviously. He always presented his reasons for not wanting to do it, and I don't consider "not agreeing with me 100% on everything all the time" a flaw in others. And of course, the same extends to you.)
Yes, I am aware of that. This request wasn't because the starters are currently unobtainable. I had three reasons:
1. Once again, I must admit I completely forgot about breeding. So the first reason I had is moot. Never mind.
2. It always felt a bit weird to me that the starter Pokemon families, supposedly "native" to the region, don't actually live anywhere in the region. There's a part of me that likes seeing that remedied.
3. The main reason I asked about this is actually because the best "catch 'em all" mods I've seen for Emerald also do this, and I'd like to have mods of both GBA adventures that behave consistently and are 100% completable. On that note...
Would you consider doing a version of your "Catch 'em all" mod (and the extras) for Emerald? There are some good ones out there, but I would love if you could make one consistent with Throwback. At least you wouldn't have to worry about wardrobe and GB Player mods :D
(And if you dare suggest I play ORAS if I want a proper Hoenn adventure, I will make an extremely annoyed face. Emerald is ten times the game ORAS will ever be.)
I hope this reply makes sense. I'm a bit sleepy right now...
RichterSnipes
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I didn't think that I made that statement so plainly. Well, allow me to apologize for that. There was no big release before the end of the year for this hack.
Life happens. Things have been changing greatly for me in the past few months. Frankly, I don't know how much I'll be able to keep thinking about or working on this hack in the future. It's getting to the point where work will be so sparse that updates could become an annual thing. That, or it might soon be time for someone else to continue the project. At the very least I owe it to everyone to get out this big release. When it will come out, I don't know. Hopefully kind of soon.
I'm sorry for any disappointment or underwhelming feelings this project has brought about.
************************
Now, time for an overdue response. Clearly you're still better than me when it comes to speedy replies!
I'll have to think about this event and how to treat it when I get to the Catch 'em All portion of the hack. It'll take the most amount of work of all of them, and I've been putting it off for awhile.
This capitalization policy actually extends far beyond Pokémon. I'd say a good majority of video games have all caps for their menu items. It's to add extra emphasis to the major components that hold the game together. I'll be standing by my decision with the capitalization standards. This is something that is trivially modified, though.
The fact that this hasn't happened yet should tell you how plausible it is to implement into the game. There does exist a means to kind of simulate trade-based evolution, but not to my desires. I assure you I won't be able to do anything about that to advance this.
I guess some of his standards and practices rubbed off on me, then? :)
I only ever had one disagreement with Tiddles in terms of what direction S3C should take. Ironically, it was a set of options that my contributions probably had a direct influence on! I took the disagreement rather hard, and since then I've come to accept that content creators are free to change things as they please. Although being challenged by others and getting suggestions can make for a better product, you have to respect the wishes of the creator. If that person modifies something in a way you strongly disagree with, see if you can take the initiative to change it to your liking! This is especially true for ROM hacks.
1. Alright then!
2. Game Freak and Nintendo consider starters to be special/event Pokémon. This designates them to one-only status. I agree that it makes sense in-universe to have starters in the wild. The same would even go for the legendaries! Unfortunately, that's just not how they were designed to function within the confines of the game. Much like the fossil choice, altering this would decrease the significance of getting one.
3. Ranking 'mon hacks is subjective by nature. Each one might have a different goal in mind other than making all Pokémon of a given classification available. Also, keep in mind that your idea of what is best in a 'mon hack is likely different from what my idea is. Who knows if I would personally agree with you on your evaluations of those Emerald hacks?
My whole reason for pushing OR/AS over R/S/E was because the base game was much better. The graphics hold the same odd distorted charm as the ones from the old games, all without the awkward perspective of the original Hoenn games (FR/LG fixed that). The music is no longer annoying, yet it is still faithful to the original compositions. And, most importantly, it's up to date in terms of Pokémon compatibility and metagame.
I noted in the OP that people who wanted the Battle Frontier or customization to their games should look at Emerald. That hasn't changed. I'm guessing the only reason the BF wasn't in OR/AS was because the game was rushed to completion so it could get put out on store shelves in time for the 2014 holiday season.
Also, I need to note the drastic art style change. Whereas Ken Sugimori's style was on the tail end of his Toriyama-esque phase at the time that Ruby and Sapphire came out, his style today personally screams something more generic. Kind of ironic given what it looked like before, even if there is certainly a personal edge to how it is now. There are stark differences with character designs that many fans of the old games might not like, and I'm inclined to agree with them somewhat.
We also can't forget that there are people who might not like the gameplay mechanics as they are now compared to how they were back then. And people might not like the ability to obtain the newer Pokémon because they don't like the newer Pokémon. And they might think that Exp. Share now beaks the main game. And they might not want polygons at all, but just sprites. And... oh dear.
Throughout my years of searching for "the best" version of games, I've come to realize one thing: Every future release of a game that is more than just a port or emulation of the original is bound to have some change that someone will object to over how it was in a previous release. Think about it. The 16-Bit versions of the Mario games in Super Mario All-Stars look and sound better in terms of fidelity (well, at least 2 and 3 do). However, there's a distinct charm that's missing without the 8-Bit music or simplistic graphics. Even so-called "HD Remasters" inevitably change things from the old releases that people might object to. Some of them crop the screen to give the player a "widescreen" view, while others widen the view and show things the player isn't supposed to see. Some remove features from the original games, sometimes erroneously. Some are just terribly done throughout. Some even replace certain assets of the game (textures, models, sounds, etc.) with revisionist elements.
It's making me come to terms with where my hack stands in the whole Kanto Pokémon game segment: a weird niche that fulfills some of the desires of the small number of people who check it out might like, along with things they never asked for. Ultimately, the only person who it fully satisfies is myself. This is why I value customization and what it brings in terms of making an experience that is truly your own. I'm going to double down on my hope to get a customization tool out for the hack. If I can't come time for the v4.0 release, I'll just put out the update and call it a day.
...Oh yeah, the Emerald request. I'll take a rain check on that, thank you very much!
Spoiler:
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Can someone tell me how long this is? If its completed then awesome!
RichterSnipes
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It's a series of modifications on top of the base FR/LG game that keep the whole of it intact. I wouldn't say that I'm done working on it yet.
But, it is complete in the sense that you can play through the whole story with it!
