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Stop with the 10 year old storylines

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
10,507
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16
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If you're honestly annoyed by someone making a Pokémon game that has a similar story to the original, it may be time to find a new series to play.
Unfortunately, you're pretty unlikely to find a hacking community as large and active as Pokemon's; certainly not as far as RPGs are concerned, there just isn't an alternative.

And there isn't really a reward for simply giving up and walking away. Speaking out is a form of action, after all, and considering there aren't really a lot of non-standard naysayers out there, I think this is a good, healthy push, especially if Le pug actually wants change.
 
3,830
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14
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  • Age 27
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Unfortunately, you're pretty unlikely to find a hacking community as large and active as Pokemon's; certainly not as far as RPGs are concerned, there just isn't an alternative.

And there isn't really a reward for simply giving up and walking away. Speaking out is a form of action, after all, and considering there aren't really a lot of non-standard naysayers out there, I think this is a good, healthy push, especially if Le pug actually wants change.

You're reading too far into this. Fact of the matter is that Pokémon as an RPG series has never been very story driven until the most recent games, and even then it's nothing too major. The recycled storyline is to be expected when the main point of the games is the collection of the Pokémon.

If Le pug wants a change, that's nice. I never meant he should give up on his or anyone else's unique stories, and it's nice he's trying encourage others to be unique. I'm just saying he shouldn't expect too much out of a game that didn't have much to begin with, story-wise.
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
10,507
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You're reading too far into this. Fact of the matter is that Pokémon as an RPG series has never been very story driven until the most recent games, and even then it's nothing too major. The recycled storyline is to be expected when the main point of the games is the collection of the Pokémon.

If Le pug wants a change, that's nice. I never meant he should give up on his or anyone else's unique stories, and it's nice he's trying encourage others to be unique. I'm just saying he shouldn't expect too much out of a game that didn't have much to begin with, story-wise.
See, and that's kind of what gets me. I've never really understood why people look at Pokemon hacking, prior to them having engaged in it, and immediately think they should make something similar to what GameFreak does. After all, hacking in general is usually a means to apply ones own ideas to a medium now made editable, and outside of simply editing them (in the way that Slideshow Hacks do), you would think people would want to make something, well, new.

People seem to just take it for what it is, but in reality, The Pokemon hacking library is truly an oddity as far as hacking communities go, especially considering Pokemon, unlike something like Super Mario or Fire Emblem, is largely similar now to what it was in 3rd gen. Because it's so similar, logically, one would try to deviate and create something different. But after having created something of a culture of its own, Pokemon hacking basically sees these similar stories as normal- it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it's considered "the way it's supposed to be".
 
7
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13
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  • Seen Nov 25, 2018
Despite all that you've said, however, you've given no good reasons TO drop the "10 year old" (hint - in the games, the ages vary, Micheal was likely 10, Red was 12, Hilbert and Hilda were, and I quote "old enough to drive" and Wes seemed to be in 18 - the rest of the cast seemed to vary between 10 to 18).

Give us a good reason why other than "to be different".
 

miksy91

Dark Energy is back in action! ;)
1,480
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15
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I totally agree with Rulep's point #9 there - the hack can turn out really boring if nothing interesting happens in a long time. As advice to others, I would personally recommend to plan surprises that the player wouldn't expect to run into.
When you travel from town A to B, in a "normal" pokemon game, you would expect to run into trainers, new wild pokemon, seeing "cool" mapped areas, and possibly run into your rival/friend for no good reason - just to have yet another pokemon battle.

So try to be more creative. Even if the main part of the game isn't story and how it's going to play out, it's not too hard to use your imagination to come up with interesting events that take place every now and then. These events make the player wonder, what's going to happen next!
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
10,507
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Despite all that you've said, however, you've given no good reasons TO drop the "10 year old" (hint - in the games, the ages vary, Micheal was likely 10, Red was 12, Hilbert and Hilda were, and I quote "old enough to drive" and Wes seemed to be in 18 - the rest of the cast seemed to vary between 10 to 18).

Give us a good reason why other than "to be different".
Whelp, there are reasons:
There should be more of these. Plots that excite the player to be playing something uniquely different in a story but relatable to Pokemon unless the direction is to steer away from Pokemon (LoZ)...IDK it's really not that hard to brainstorm something better than "hey I'm 10 now give me a starter that is probably one of the starters of a gamefreak game".

Though, for me, it would be ideal that less Pokemon-based Pokemon hacks would be created thanks to the games' malleable nature (in terms of hacking), I would even like to see more gym-less or team-less hacks in the case of those that are about Pokemon, for the sole reason that I think it bottlenecks creativity when people limit themselves...

But there's no reason hacks need to be simplistic. There is quite literally no reason that gyms and evil teams need to exist. I really feel that if hackers freed their minds and created their own ideas without confining themselves to this structure that, really, isn't that popular outside of hacking, the hacking library would be a lot more varied, unique, and interesting.

The stories are mostly the same, a lot of games seek to boast the same features, and in terms of gameplay there's really nothing to keep you from playing most hacks as alternatives to others or even the main games

From this very thread.
 

Deokishisu

Mr. Magius
990
Posts
18
Years
Spoiler:

I'm on mobile, so forgive me if this is poorly written.

The thing is, I don't play Pokémon hacks to cry or question my deeply held beliefs. Heck, I don't even play retail Pokémon expecting that. I play for a light and airy experience adventuring with the creatures I've come to love in a world that I don't have to think too hard about. If I want an emotional experience out of the plot, I'll read literature or reach for an older Final Fantasy. Not to mention, hacks that deviate from the normal storyline are almost always written horribly, which is an extra disincentive. If your plot's premise is awful, well, that's not something that people really want to help with (even when using a variation of the stock plot) because it's such a core thing.

Not expecting an emotional experience from hacks is no excuse to have a poorly written storyline, but it is a reason to use the stock plot. It is also what I want and expect from a Pokémon game. For me, it's as natural as wanting there to be Pokémon in it; and I suspect it's the same way for many hackers as well.
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
10,507
Posts
16
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I'm on mobile, so forgive me if this is poorly written.

The thing is, I don't play Pokémon hacks to cry or question my deeply held beliefs. Heck, I don't even play retail Pokémon expecting that. I play for a light and airy experience adventuring with the creatures I've come to love in a world that I don't have to think too hard about. If I want an emotional experience out of the plot, I'll read literature or reach for an older Final Fantasy. Not to mention, hacks that deviate from the normal storyline are almost always written horribly, which is an extra disincentive. If your plot's premise is awful, well, that's not something that people really want to help with (even when using a variation of the stock plot) because it's such a core thing.

Not expecting an emotional experience from hacks is no excuse to have a poorly written storyline, but it is a reason to use the stock plot. It is also what I want and expect from a Pokémon game. For me, it's as natural as wanting there to be Pokémon in it; and I suspect it's the same way for many hackers as well.
For fear of repeating myself, I'll keep this brief. I'm not asking for deep, existential journeys or dark tearjerkers- in fact, being completely honest, I'm not asking for a story at all; after all, it's the simplest thing to make a story with an "milquetoast adventurer tackles badman to save world" scenario- it's far from deep, but it's something and has a lot of room for the creator's imagination to roam. And again, I get that it's easy to go with and there isn't really much demand for deviation, but I honestly wouldn't be this invested if there were some hacks that tried to do their own thing.

The biggest issue isn't so much that a lot of hacks don't try to deviate, it's that the number that does try to is so minuscule that even "some" is an exaggeration. That's what worries me. It gives off the idea that "Pokemon hacking is this", and there is no wiggle room because that idea is pretty well enforced. But with so much at our disposal (especially in 2015, as PKMN hacking has evolved so much) and near endless possibilities as to what a hack can be and, similarly, what Pokemon can be...it just seems like a waste.

Ironically, though, reading through this thread (as well as various opinions outside of this thread, but still in the forum), it seems like the consensus is that making Pokemon that's not like GF is...unnecessary. I'd say, if that is the case..."worried" might be a drastic underexaggeration for how I feel about this. "Terrified" seems more appropriate. If that really is how so many feel, which I wouldn't be surprised by, the idea of even entering hacking with an idea like that would practically be suffocating.
 
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  • Age 27
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redacted for brevity
I'm not saying making a Pokemon hack that's not like a GF Pokemon game is unnecessary at all. Far from it. As I said in my previous post here, I'm not going to tell people to limit their creativity. And I think everyone would agree with me here that people should be able to express their creativity through ROM hacking.

But here's the thing. I'd rather have a small number of good creative hacks, than a bunch of bad "different" hacks. Quality over quantity. And before you say "But Hido, we can just help them improve, and then we'll have a bunch of good creative hacks!", my idea of helping at this point is pretty much telling them to restart. The foundations are that bad. Hackers here are churning out hacks with boring, vapid protagonists, plots chock full of bad tropes and poor narrating (aka bunch of textboxes syndrome) and bad game design. I'd be pouring new wine into an old wineskin full of holes.

It's said that creative geniuses have at least 10 years of experience in their field. Of course, I'm not arguing that hackers here should study writing for 10 years before making a hack. But I do think that hackers here need better standards and knowledge. They should be equipped with the necessary tools to actually create something that won't bore or annoy people to death in the first 10 minutes. They need a better foundation. When that foundation becomes solid, we can talk about creating more different, innovative hacks. But not right now, when 90% of the hackers here in Pokecommunity struggle with grammar and plotbuilding.
 
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11
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  • Seen Jul 6, 2017
Personally, while I enjoy the canon story of nearly all the Pokemon games of being 10, my favorites ARE the ones that are different, that don't bore me with the same eight badges, leaders, becoming champion will save the world, only difference is the bad guys. But I do agree that I'd rather there be only a few of really amazing, creative games like Pokemon Discovery for example and I'm personally fond of Pokemon Reborn as well, then all of them being 'fails' of creativity.

I know if I knew how to make my own, I'd love a game mixing it together, where you actually GROW UP from small child with your parent(s) battling with you and holding your hand in the first city or two, to child/10, to teen, adult, and each has a different villian running through. Hell, even for those who love the gym system of canon, each age is a pokemon reset, so each time you get through the game, you HAVE to reset the game and start over then you are the next age, new battles, new villians and even better, it goes through the different pokemon gens. Most of us started pokemon gen 1 as kids after all, so that being the first stage and with parents 'guiding and monitoring' would be fun, then as older, story darker, more cursing, even add in the parents dying of age as an adult or something.

TL;DR, I love creative ideas and I'd love if I knew how to make my ideas happen, but I do like when there are a few AMAZING games more then a hundred of meh ones with creative ideas. It's like focusing all that awesome in one spot.
 

Cerberus87

Mega Houndoom, baby!
1,639
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Honestly, the hacks have the same stories as the vanilla games probably due to poor storytelling. It's definitely not because the base doesn't allow it. I'm pretty sure you could make a league with only 4 badges while adding more "meat" to the story between them.

The only reason badges exist is to prevent you from trading in higher leveled Pokémon, which is a non issue in hacks because most people play these on emulators and can't trade, also because most hackers remove trading requirements in the game. You "don't" have to use badges in the story.

It's a hack, it doesn't have to be like the vanilla games. If you can't think of a good story, go to the Fanfiction forum section and ask the help of a writer, maybe?
 
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In all honesty, I say that you should always write a story that YOU would like to play through. If you're a fan of the GameFreak formula, then I say there's no reason as to why you can't deviate from the tried and tested method used in Pokémon games. In the same vein, you shouldn't be scrutinized for doing something new. Being adventurous with your storyline and doing something completely independent of what we've seen in the official games before is no different in changing the graphics or music for something custom. It comes down to personal preference.

Personally I would like to see more expression of original ideas when it comes to creating and progressing a storyline in a hack. However, that does not mean that someone's hack can't have fantastic innovation and gameplay even if it follows the typical 10 year old, collect 8 badges, beat the Champion story development. GameFreak have publishers and a TV Show to comply with. Whereas you as a hacker have more creative freedom and no obligation to do what "the man" says. So I say do what feels right, if you do something new there will sure be someone who takes and interest in it because they're sick of the same old regime in Pokémon games and hacks. By the same token, there will always be a niche for those who enjoy the traditional route. It's also important to keep in mind that not everyone is a skilled writer, the same way not everyone is a good artist or capable programmer. So if someone uses the original plot schematics then they may not be versed in the area of fiction writing. Which is totally understandable too.

Create the hack that keeps you motivated, if we all followed popular opinion we would never innovate.
 

Cassandra

Transgender Queen
161
Posts
10
Years
Yeah nah I like the regular story format.

I'm just gonna quote this because I absolutely agree with it. The standard story format of Pokemon is such a staple of the series. Getting a Pokemon is a timeless coming of age story in the Pokemon world, and having such a young character makes it easier for them to grow and become stronger through their ordeals. It's so simplistic yet powerful, and deep in it's own way.
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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and having such a young character makes it easier for them to grow and become stronger through their ordeals
But even the main games have basically stopped (or halted) using younger characters and going for more teenaged ones.

And since the MC doesn't have any character and because they lack expression, their journey doesn't really have any effect on the player.
 

Deokishisu

Mr. Magius
990
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And since the MC doesn't have any character and because they lack expression, their journey doesn't really have any effect on the player.

That's true. The Pokemon protagonists could all be switched around in their games with no change in the plot whatsoever. I think I made a post about this somewhere before, hold on...

The protagonists of the Pokemon games are not simply mute people, they're literally silent. Mute characters still have personalities and emote to communicate, while silent protagonists are meant to have their traits and personality projected onto them by the player. Character development, by definition, for these types of protagonists has to be minimal. I think you're confusing the very few concrete traits that that the Pokemon playable characters have, along with their interactions with the plot, as character development where no such development exists.

Take, for example, Lucas (the male hero from D/P/Pt). He shares a few concrete personality traits with all the other playable Pokemon protagonists. Namely, he likes Pokemon, appears to care for the well being of Pokemon (both his own and others), and is talented as a Trainer. That's really it. Everything else is projected onto him by the player. The plot happens around Lucas, but it is driven by the other characters. Lucas, as a character, arguably makes no actions on his own, but simply flows with the actions taken by other characters. Replace Lucas with any of the other Pokemon protagonists and it would be the same story, with the same development, with no change to the hero's personality at all. They're all the same blank slates, and thus, all interchangeable.

Therefore, if a hacker is making a game with the traditional silent protagonist, their only goal is to replicate the blank slate that Game Freak normally throws at us. The rest of the protagonist's "character development" needs to go into the plot. This is because it is the plot that will allow the player to step into the hero's shoes, and it has to be constructed carefully enough as to not break the player's suspension of disbelief, nor give the protagonist (i.e. the character, not the player) too much agency or autonomy.

Basically, the silent Pokemon protagonist should be the traditional blank slate, and the plot should be crafted in such a way that the player doesn't feel like their character is making choices on his or her own. The protagonist can hold up some parts of the plot, and affect some outcomes, but much of it should be driven by the other characters. Whether it be the evil team goading the player into some action, or the professor bequeathing upon the player a task, the plot is largely happening regardless of the player, not because of him or her.

Basically, the player character doesn't really matter with the stock Game Freak plot. I mean, you could make certain things more plausible by messing with the character's age (which I guess is the real crux of this thread), but it's pretty telling that you could swap Red and Hilbert and have no difference in the plot of their games whatsoever. Any of the main character's character development should really be diverted into the plot and the NPC characters if you're going for the stock plot, in my opinion.
 
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If by the title you just mean storylines featuring 10 year olds, then that could be done but might not matter - if you recall the games, for instance, your age was rarely stressed much within them. The series tends to be fairly light on plot, however, and as such referring to that as a 'storyline' is itself misleading to a degree, generally speaking people tend to replace it with a storyline of some sort, and in general this can tend to restrict the relatively free nature of the series rather than just being a change in the storyline, which might make more sense as a matter of importance in Final Fantasy and such - otherwise, you might not be changing the storyline that much, or it's more to do with the hack than doing otherwise being a problem.

Is getting a Pokémon even that emphasised in terms of the game itself? Perhaps in more recent installments, where there's more talking and FF-esque pseudo-cutscene stuff near the beginning, but that wasn't usually the case, generally you just get a Pokemon or are shown one in order not to go out into the grass, fight a Zigzagoon, etc., and then you move on with the game.

Anyway,

Yeah nah I like the regular story format.
Yeah, dude. Stories are found in other stories, stories within stories are never what they seem.
 
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I... disagree.
The light-hearted, almost child-like theme of pokemon games is just what makes it so special. Creating plot-heavy story with adult character doing adult stuff is pointless because this is not what players are expecting playing a hack. Playing a Pokemon game i want relaxing, easy plot with few interesting concepts that makes it interesting and not plot-heavy, too-emotional, adult stuff where people are dying and evil guys are psychedelic freaks with gray morality.
When i start playing a new hack or new Pokemon game i'm expecting few basic concepts - 3 starters, 8 gyms, evil team, elite four, battles with legendaries... without those things i don't feel like playing Pokemon, just random JRPG that just have similiar gameplay to my favorite game series.
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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where people are dying and evil guys are psychedelic freaks with gray morality.
You just described Team Flare exactly. And Cyrus, to some extent. And N. Gray moralities have been in Pokemon since RSE (and, to a greater extent, Mystery Dungeon).

I mean, this whole idea that Pokemon's special because it's lighthearted and carefree really doesn't hold up when you look at games like BW, which has some of the grayest morality as well as the highest praised story, Mystery Dungeons 1&2, and DPP (all things considered, the conclusion to the team's story in that game is pretty chilling), and most recently with the games with the darkest story in the main line, X and Y. Heck, even looking at RBY it wasn't all happiness and sunshine, the creators used Lavender Town as a means to motivate the player and insight feelings of anger in them so that they would want to take down Team Rocket (because what's presented their is their more or less evil nature). It specifically used death to emotionally affect the player.
 
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You just described Team Flare exactly. And Cyrus, to some extent. And N. Gray moralities have been in Pokemon since RSE (and, to a greater extent, Mystery Dungeon).

I mean, this whole idea that Pokemon's special because it's lighthearted and carefree really doesn't hold up when you look at games like BW, which has some of the grayest morality as well as the highest praised story, Mystery Dungeons 1&2, and DPP (all things considered, the conclusion to the team's story in that game is pretty chilling), and most recently with the games with the darkest story in the main line, X and Y. Heck, even looking at RBY it wasn't all happiness and sunshine, the creators used Lavender Town as a means to motivate the player and insight feelings of anger in them so that they would want to take down Team Rocket (because what's presented their is their more or less evil nature). It specifically used death to emotionally affect the player.

Exactly, and that didn't stop it from being silly and light-hearted and with the 10-year old storyline that the OP is so vehemently against. There's a balance to be struck, and I don't think a good story is mutually exclusive with the generic formula or excuse for the story to begin.
 

machomuu

Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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Exactly, and that didn't stop it from being silly and light-hearted and with the 10-year old storyline that the OP is so vehemently against. There's a balance to be struck, and I don't think a good story is mutually exclusive with the generic formula or excuse for the story to begin.
Yeah...but there's still more to it.

I mean, I agree with you absolutely 100%, but put simply it's two things. First, it's that people rarely actually do that, and second, that people don't stray from the formula enough- the ones that do are a dime a dozen. Keepin' this brief because in this thread I can practically only be a broken record by now, but it feels like people feel restricted to the formula here.

Ignoring that, though, since that's not my point...I feel like people don't want to explore making an effectively powerful story (one that follows the formula) because they're set on making one that feels like Pokemon...no...no, it's more that it's because they're set on making a Pokemon game that is what they would want as a main Pokemon game.

And you know what, I think there's a missed point in all this. I feel like people think their games will be official and just as good as the main games because they have badges and teams and such (and similarly, apparently, people like the formula for that specifically), but thinking about it...that really isn't how it works. What makes any new Pokemon game fun to me is the exploration and adventure, and that's what Pokemon advertises. It's the atmosphere and the intent that make the games feel like Pokemon, that's why when any new game in the franchise throws in something completely new or different, like the Shadow Triad, Pokewood, N, or Pokemon-Amie, they still feel like Pokemon because they're in this familiar setting.

But making a story about how Deoxys wakes you up in your sleep and tells you to collect 8 badges and beat the Elite 4 while fighting the Evil Team, Team Evil, only to find out that Dark Deoxys was behind it all...that's not Official Pokemon. And it's fine that you want this kind of story, but as light as Pokemon's stories can tend to be I urge everyone who wants to make a cookie-cutter story and argues that what Le Pug is saying is disagreeable to consider that Pokemon cares about it's story. It's simple, sure, but it has twists and turns and is a sum of several ever growing parts. It's part of what makes the journey feel like a journey, and it's why we remember these parts of the experiences.

...Sorry, this wasn't supposed to go on like this, so I'll just TL;DR this whole thing: If you want to make a game that feels like Pokemon, make a game that feels like Pokemon and not one that just has Pokemon-related things in it. When a Touhoumon hack can make me feel more Pokemon-esque whimsy and adventure than quite a few regular Pokemon hacks, that's pretty telling. Badges, teams, and Elite Four do not Pokemon make, it's what you do with these things that does.
 
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