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Dolly, The First Cloned Mammal.

7,741
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  • Seen Sep 18, 2020
Wait, what? Did you type that right?
I believe I did, if you'll excuse the nonstandard word order. I would like to query further, if you wouldn't mind.

How does providing for an individual human's experience merit inherent goodness unto itself? Our experiences are valuable, under what authority?
How does one justify adding more and more to our already excessive population at sacrifice to the wellbeing of our environment?
 
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Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu
9,528
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Instead of trying to clone species, I think it would be better to clone resources such as wood, metals, oil, etc. So that we don't run out of these resources in the future.

What concerns me about cloning resources is that they may be inferior to the originals due to a few missing/incorrect coding on the original blueprints for said resources. For example, cereal made from cloned grains won't have the same delicious taste as cereal made from the original grains.

I understand trying to revive extinct species, but there's a reason such species are extinct. Mostly because they're not suitable to survive in the environments anymore and that's why species evolve.
What about those who were extinct by human activity such as the Tasmanian Tiger and that sub-species of Black Rhino? Was it because they weren't suitable to survive in our environment since we're the dominant species?
 
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What about those who were extinct by human activity such as the Tasmanian Tiger and that sub-species of Black Rhino? Was it because they weren't suitable to survive in our environment since we're the dominant species?
It could be argued that humans are just as much a normal part of the natural cycle of evolution as any other species. That is, whatever we cause to go extinct was 'meant to be' or is 'just as well', so to speak. I won't argue the point, since I think it is too soon to make that call and that we have already been unduly damaging, but there you go.
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
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15
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I believe I did, if you'll excuse the nonstandard word order. I would like to query further, if you wouldn't mind.

How does providing for an individual human's experience merit inherent goodness unto itself? Our experiences are valuable, under what authority?
"I think, therefore I am." Our experiences matter because we (or some of us, apparently) believe they matter.

There need be no justification for the pursuit of happiness and the preservation of human life; it is, as some wise fellows said a couple hundred years ago, self-evident. So long as we as a species possess the ability to comprehend our wants and realize they are worth protecting, they become worth protecting.

How does one justify adding more and more to our already excessive population at sacrifice to the wellbeing of our environment?
I find it hard to believe what I'm hearing. This argument could be used to justify something as extreme as genocide or mass murder, and in fact has been used as justification for these. This is dangerous talk; I sincerely hope you're merely playing devil's advocate and don't actually believe the wanton destruction of human life is justifiable.

"Overpopulation" is not a problem at all. The world's a large place, and contrary to what you've implied, we're in no danger of any environmental doomsday that is directly related to our population size. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find evidence that the world as a whole suffers from any sort of problems related to overpopulation; perhaps in some densely populated cities it is a problem, but that is another matter entirely.

That said, even if we were in the most severe danger conceivable and it was directly related to population size, that's not an excuse to kill people or let them die. Above all else, human life and happiness has value. Sacrificing these values to "save the environment" is unacceptable; the whole point of keeping the environment stable is to preserve human life and happiness. If we could get by on an arid planet with no resources, there would be far less reason to protect the environment (though I'm sure some people would still try).

What concerns me about cloning resources is that they may be inferior to the originals due to a few missing/incorrect coding on the original blueprints for said resources. For example, cereal made from cloned grains won't have the same delicious taste as cereal made from the original grains.
That's merely a problem with technique and can be solved with more research into the topic. It doesn't have to be perfect, either; even normal reproduction isn't without its share of mutations and alterations.
 

J

good morning
420
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17
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  • Seen Jun 21, 2016
In defense of twocows' view, here's a little reductio ad absurdum analogy:

Jack and Jim are siblings living with an abusive parent, who provides for them as shelter a run-down, cold, and musky shack that is entirely too small for even one person to live in, let alone two. For food, the brothers rummage through the neighbors' compost bins for edible scraps, which is just barely enough to them keep from starvation. On a lucky day, they would occasion upon a half-gnawed apple core with plenty of the juicy flesh left behind by a lazy eater, which they would split in half and savor delicately. During rainy days they would step out of their hut and open their mouths skywards, so as to catch a few replenishing drops of rain.
Now, Jack and Jim's parent was quite fond of drinking, and from time to time in a drunken rage he would go down to their little shack and beat them both until they were bleeding and lying unconscious on the floor.

The years pass, and the siblings (against all odds!) have grown stronger and smarter, and they contemplate leaving their parent's custody to make their way in the world. Jack is enthusiastic about the idea, but Jim disagrees. "Well, gee, Jack-- it's a big scary world out there; maybe we would be safer staying in our shack than going out," he says.
"I mean," he goes on, "it's not all too bad when you think about it; there are days when we get to eat apples and on some weeks our parent doesn't break our bones."
"Going out into the world and trying to make a living there-- isn't that like pretending to be an adult (playing God)?"
Jack tried his utmost best to convince his sibling, but to no avail. He left one chill September day, taking with him what little possessions he had, and never looked back since.

Two years later, Jim's thin, beaten-up, malnourished corpse was found in the brothers' old shack. His parent was on a particularly passionate rage one night and accidentally (?) cut his carotid artery.

So it goes.

The 'parent' here is 'nature', and those who defend the irrationality of external circumstances that trample upon the dignity of mankind are the Jims. The world is cruel, evil, and indifferent to human suffering. That is a fact. What is really odd here is that there are Stockholm syndrome victims here that actually think that this is a good thing.

RECOMMENDED READING: von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang: Prometheus (1789)

Oh, and clones! So that I don't stray too far from topic, here's a remark about clones!
If you try to 'dehumanize' a clone, who looks, thinks, and acts like a human, then you're already committing a major moral offense. The fact that the subject of dehumanization is a copy of someone else-- how does that matter? People who are capable of doing this are probably already capable of dehumanizing non-cloned humans anyhow-- the problem is nothing new, in other words.
e.g., third-world plantation laborers, Chinese sweat-shop workers, etc.
 
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I find it hard to believe what I'm hearing. This argument could be used to justify something as extreme as genocide or mass murder, and in fact has been used as justification for these. This is dangerous talk; I sincerely hope you're merely playing devil's advocate and don't actually believe the wanton destruction of human life is justifiable.
It's a question; I want to learn and understand the basis for your perspective. I just think humans could manage themselves and their resources with more foresight. I thank you for your time, although I feel you could be less vehement.
 
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Princess Sandshrew

PokéRespect
66
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14
Years
...That said, even if we were in the most severe danger conceivable and it was directly related to population size, that's not an excuse to kill people or let them die. Above all else, human life and happiness has value. Sacrificing these values to "save the environment" is unacceptable; the whole point of keeping the environment stable is to preserve human life and happiness. If we could get by on an arid planet with no resources, there would be far less reason to protect the environment (though I'm sure some people would still try).

I firmly believe that it is right to sacrifice human happiness and life if it can create a better world (literally and metaphorically) for all future species, be they human or otherwise.
All life is equal and worth little.
 
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