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Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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BeachBoy

S P A R K of madness
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sims796, I would agree, your not breaking the sleep clause by defending yourself like that, in my opinion, becuase again, who knows what their throwing, and I disagree with the whole it's your fualt deal. As... it could be a variety of moves. I say not breaking.

Anyway, on Deoxys, D_A It can sweep, it's annoying to offensive teams. o_o" Just saying that though, anyway I'm don't know much about D-speed seeing as I tend to ignore it completely. I don't know much on it, so... yeah, I guess I'll go with what you guys think. I can't really relay my opinion on it.

And Anti, I believe all of this metagame change is because we are trying to find that "balanced" metagame we all want. And that there really is no universal line in the sand, so why not test the metagame about certian things. -shrugs-

DEBATE TIME:

Okay discussion for the three - to two - controversal pocket monsters....

I'm interested in other opinions, mine change way too easily so I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on the three changers...

Deoxys Speed.
Wobby.
Garchomp.

Opinions on each?
 
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Aquilae

=))))))))88888888OOOOOOOO<
386
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I'm just going to debate about Wobbuffet here.

Lets look at the reasons why Wobbuffet should be banned to Ubers:


  1. It is "irritating" and supposedly "sucks the fun" out of every game its in
  2. It has no counters
  3. It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag, especially walls
  4. It is "cheap"
Point 1:
It is irritating.

Competitive pokemon will never be about fun. Wobbuffet is there, live with it. Cresselia and Blissey are irritating, but we don't ban them, right?

Point 2:
It has no counters.

The "no counters" argument has been thrown around a lot of times, and it is worth noting that the top tier pokemon also have "no counters" at first.
Take Heracross. It is "stopped completely by Gliscor", or so they say. In reality, you could just slap an LO and HP Ice on Heracross, and Gliscor would be neutered. A more practical moveset would be this:

Heracross @ Burn Orb
Guts
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Close Combat
Facade

After a Swords Dance, Heracross reaches 1149 Attack, enough to do more than 85% to a standard Gliscor, standing a 2.56% chance of KOing it, with Stealth Rock down a 79.49% chance of KOing it.

The definition of a counter:

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Variants of Gliscor without AA would not counter a Sub/SD Heracross. The set listed above shows that Gliscor would not be able to switch in against Heracross without taking significant damage or being KOed. Skarmory and Hippowdon fall to Close Combat.

Wobbuffet has no counters simply because of its ability. It should be treated as seperate from the conventional pokemon as "counters" do not apply to it.

The "no counters" does not show its strength and brokenness.

Point 3:
It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag and Encore, including walls.

A lot of people overestimate Wobbuffet's defensive capabilities as well as its ability to deal with other pokemon. Wobbuffet gains the Psychic type, a liability this generation with the introduction of Pursuit, physical Dark moves and Special Shadow Ball.
Wobbuffet has no notable resistances that could be exploited in the switchin, as most pokemon who carry Psychic or Fighting moves have something to deal with Wobbuffet.

So, Wobbuffet can't come in on sweepers. But what about walls? Wobbuffet could easily come in and let something setup right?

Not really. If Wobbuffet comes in on, say Blissey, you could select a non-damaging move and proceed to see a setup sweeper coming in. In reality however, you have to have something to deal with setup sweepers, be it revenge killing, entry hazards or effective walling.

Wobbazard got hurt by Stealth Rock. A lot.

Okay, time for the infamous and arguably the best Wobbuffet set in existence.

"TickleWobb"

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Lonely (+Atk -Def), 128 Def/128 SpD/252 Speed

Encore
Tickle
Counter
Mirror Coat

The nature is not a mistake as on the rare occassions Wobb with Tickle was handed out it had a predetermined Lonely nature.

Strategy is simple. Come in on a wall's non damaging move, Encore, the higher speed would lock the non-damaging move in, and start Tickling and refresh Encore whenever you want.
After getting it to -6 Def (Tickle), send in CBTyranitar and Pursuit.

This set is rare because of the complete non-existence of Tickle Wobbuffet in the WiFi metagame. As such, it is not a great threat, and discussions are now undergoing in Shoddy about whether event moves should be banned given the restricted IVs and Nature for it.

As such, only the Tickle Wobbuffet merits further discussion, but the standards don't really pose a threat.

Point 4:
It is "cheap".

I doubt it costs much. You get one for free in Lavaridge, and Lax Incense is free unless you dropped it.

"Cheap" does not have any relevance when we are talking competitively. In my opinion, it is just somebody whining because their team does not have an effective way to deal with the threat it poses.

Overcentralisation

There has been no evidence of Wobbuffet being overcentralising to the metagame, Shed Shell usages stayed the same, no pokemon were used a lot to counter Wobbuffet. If you want to prove overcentralisation, you have to have to statistics to back it up.

Why is it not used on Shoddy?

The community is biased against Wobbuffet, many players on Shoddy don't bother preparing or anticipating Wobbuffet, others who use it get flamed. There are several instances of Wobbuffet being used effectively by top-tier players, most notably Doorman's stall team. I doubt respect matters if you are playing to win.
And BTW, Sleep Clause is broken with Magic Coat as it is a status inflictor, same with Encoring a Hypnosis.
 
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sims796

We're A-Comin', Princess!
5,862
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I'm just going to debate about Wobbuffet here.

Lets look at the reasons why Wobbuffet should be banned to Ubers:


  1. It is "irritating" and supposedly "sucks the fun" out of every game its in
  2. It has no counters
  3. It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag, especially walls
  4. It is "cheap"
Point 1:
It is irritating.

Competitive pokemon will never be about fun. Wobbuffet is there, live with it. Cresselia and Blissey are irritating, but we don't ban them, right?
But there are effective ways to deal with them. Just the first sentence sounds a little off putting, to be honest, it's a $35 children's video game, not a sport.
Point 2:
It has no counters.

The "no counters" argument has been thrown around a lot of times, and it is worth noting that the top tier pokemon also have "no counters" at first.
Take Heracross. It is "stopped completely by Gliscor", or so they say. In reality, you could just slap an LO and HP Ice on Heracross, and Gliscor would be neutered. A more practical moveset would be this:

Heracross @ Burn Orb
Guts
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Close Combat
Facade

After a Swords Dance, Heracross reaches 1149 Attack, enough to do more than 85% to a standard Gliscor, standing a 2.56% chance of KOing it, with Stealth Rock down a 79.49% chance of KOing it.

The definition of a counter:

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Variants of Gliscor without AA would not counter a Sub/SD Heracross. The set listed above shows that Gliscor would not be able to switch in against Heracross without taking significant damage or being KOed. Skarmory and Hippowdon fall to Close Combat.

Wobbuffet has no counters simply because of its ability. It should be treated as seperate from the conventional pokemon as "counters" do not apply to it.

The "no counters" does not show its strength and brokenness.
Actually, it shows it's brokeness quite well.
Point 3:
It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag and Encore, including walls.

A lot of people overestimate Wobbuffet's defensive capabilities as well as its ability to deal with other pokemon. Wobbuffet gains the Psychic type, a liability this generation with the introduction of Pursuit, physical Dark moves and Special Shadow Ball.
Wobbuffet has no notable resistances that could be exploited in the switchin, as most pokemon who carry Psychic or Fighting moves have something to deal with Wobbuffet.

So, Wobbuffet can't come in on sweepers. But what about walls? Wobbuffet could easily come in and let something setup right?

Not really. If Wobbuffet comes in on, say Blissey, you could select a non-damaging move and proceed to see a setup sweeper coming in. In reality however, you have to have something to deal with setup sweepers, be it revenge killing, entry hazards or effective walling.

Wobbazard got hurt by Stealth Rock. A lot.
This is all assuming you are playing against a moron, right? Any good Wobbo user can pick who it comes out on, and what move it comes out on. It wouldn't straight come out on a poke that is using a move that can 2HKO on the spot. The inclusion of Choice items helped it out somewhat, as well as Reflect & Light Screen, to allow survivability, and the ability to switch in.
Okay, time for the infamous and arguably the best Wobbuffet set in existence.

"TickleWobb"

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Lonely (+Atk -Def), 128 Def/128 SpD/252 Speed

Encore
Tickle
Counter
Mirror Coat

The nature is not a mistake as on the rare occassions Wobb with Tickle was handed out it had a predetermined Lonely nature.

Strategy is simple. Come in on a wall's non damaging move, Encore, the higher speed would lock the non-damaging move in, and start Tickling and refresh Encore whenever you want.
After getting it to -6 Def (Tickle), send in CBTyranitar and Pursuit.

This set is rare because of the complete non-existence of Tickle Wobbuffet in the WiFi metagame. As such, it is not a great threat, and discussions are now undergoing in Shoddy about whether event moves should be banned given the restricted IVs and Nature for it.

As such, only the Tickle Wobbuffet merits further discussion, but the standards don't really pose a threat.

Point 4:
It is "cheap".

I doubt it costs much. You get one for free in Lavaridge, and Lax Incense is free unless you dropped it.
D=If this is sarcasm, it's also chessy. Otherwise, please don't twist words or meanings. I know it was sarcasm, but that is a tad low brow.
"Cheap" does not have any relevance when we are talking competitively. In my opinion, it is just somebody whining because their team does not have an effective way to deal with the threat it poses.
F.E.A.R. Rattata is also cheap, but one thing at a time. Which would be an effective way to deal with it? You can't shove Shed Shell on every poke, to say so would be unreasonable.
Overcentralisation

There has been no evidence of Wobbuffet being overcentralising to the metagame, Shed Shell usages stayed the same, no pokemon were used a lot to counter Wobbuffet. If you want to prove overcentralisation, you have to have to statistics to back it up.
At the same time, all other pokemon cannot suffice by slapping a Shed Shell on them. Nor can any pokemon be used to counter Wobby, simply because a SMART user keeps them the heck away from those who are an immediate threat to it, like Gya. There is no real way to counter it.
Why is it not used on Shoddy?
Sorry, not on shoddy, I'll leave that alone.
The community is biased against Wobbuffet, many players on Shoddy don't bother preparing or anticipating Wobbuffet, others who use it get flamed. There are several instances of Wobbuffet being used effectively by top-tier players, most notably Doorman's stall team. I doubt respect matters if you are playing to win. Hm. Taking the game way too seriously. That doesn't really prove much for or against Wobbo.
And BTW, Sleep Clause is broken with Magic Coat as it is a status inflictor, same with Encoring a Hypnosis.

As for the Sleep Clause thing, Magic Coat is not a status inflictor. I reflected Dark Azelf's Metal Sound right back at him before. Very funny, but not a status. The same way that Breloom was able to use Toxic, or Leech Seed, and I was allowed to bounce those back, it is completely reliant on what HE uses. Maybe shoddy doesn't let him sleep. I dunno. But on wifi, he's asleep. I won't fall asleep because one of his pokes are, I'm gonna try to block it. If you Encore my Hypnosis, sure, that may break Sleep Clause, because I can simply switch the effects away, and I know what I am doing. I am using a sleep inducing move. However, I am automatically supposed to have one of my members sleep, because he want's to use Spore? Using any status move on a Magic Coat user is dangerous on it's own.


Now I will agree that "it's irritating" is not a valid argument. I find Blissey annoying as well, always healing. STOP HEALING! Still, she actually has counters. Other trapping pokemon are greatly hinderd. Duggy? Lacks powa. If it comes in on my Grumpig (one of the two pokes it can beat on my team) while I am using Reflect, it's a wasted effort on Duggy's part. Magnezone? Thank God it only works on steels, who can afford to use Shed Shell. Trapinch? Well, I dunno much on that. But they all have cripplingweaknesses, most of which stems from lack of actual powa (I love that word!). Now, as for Wobbo, they have complete control as to what it switches into. Any intellegent Wobbo user knows how to avoid certain threats.
 
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Aquilae

=))))))))88888888OOOOOOOO<
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Competitive pokemon is very different from the videogame. On the Shoddy ladder, people play to win, not to have fun. The ladder is an extremely competitive environment and statistics from there can be depended on.

I was quoting Wobbazard as potentially the most dangerous combo of Wobbuffet's Encore. Common set-up sweepers like Lucario all can be stopped one way or another provided you have a counter for them.

Like I said, Wobbuffet is different from conventional pokemon in a sense that it has Shadow Tag, so counters do not apply to it. I gave an explanation on the "no counters" argument, why wouldn't people bash Burn Orb/SD Hera? Why wouldn't Heracross be banished to the Ubers tier?

Preparing for Wobbuffet does not mean that a Shed Shell should be shoved onto every pokemon. It means that you must posess a check - i.e. a pokemon that can come in after a kill and pose an immediate threat to said Wobbuffet.

"Any smart user of Wobbuffet would not match Wobbuffet up against another pokemon that it cannot handle". While this argument is plausible, I find that not creating an opportunity for Wobbuffet to switch in in the first place is a good way of trying to beat the other smart user, OR you could possess several "checks" as I mentioned earlier.

Competitive pokemon is serious business.

And, as for the Magic Coat argument, you used it knowing full well what it does (reflect back status and other stuff), violating Sleep Clause. It could function as a sleep-inducing move among others.
You also have three other moves, and 5 other pokemon that you can switchin. Why choose Magic Coat?
 

sims796

We're A-Comin', Princess!
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"Any smart user of Wobbuffet would not match Wobbuffet up against another pokemon that it cannot handle". While this argument is plausible, I find that not creating an opportunity for Wobbuffet to switch in in the first place is a good way of trying to beat the other smart user, OR you could possess several "checks" as I mentioned earlier.
You cannot possibly always control the situation as to not make it happen. An earlier user said something like that. Just "put up the pressure". Outmanuervering is not a reliable way of countering, as the opponent is able to do the same. I can easily be outmanuvered myself. We need a hard, set in stone weakness. Which Wobbo doesn't have.
Competitive pokemon is serious business.
Buisness my butt. It's a video game for ages 10 & up. I bought one for my little cousin. I know what you mean, about how commpettitive differs from that game, but it is hardly a real serious buisness, and those who treat it as such needs to take a game break. It's pokemon.
And, as for the Magic Coat argument, you used it knowing full well what it does (reflect back status and other stuff), violating Sleep Clause. It could function as a sleep-inducing move among others.
You also have three other moves, and 5 other pokemon that you can switchin. Why choose Magic Coat?This get's my immediate attention. Even if, am I supposed to automatically fall asleep because they have Spore & I put them to sleep? I have a right to fight back. THEY used it full knowing they can fall asleep themselves-like using Effect Spore on Breloom. Same with using Spore on Blissey with Serene Grace. By putting that to sleep, you may break sleep clause, thinking it may have Natural Cure. But since it has the option, you can't sleep it safely. Well, they used Spore full knwing what can happen. I don't want my Piggy to sleep, and I cannot afford a switch to another poke to use Aromatherapy.

First off, I'm tired, so I'll let others handle the rest of your argument.

Second, about the pokeworld as "serious", let's take it elsewhere.

Third, g'night. A new episode comes on tommora. We can finish this when others come on.
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
881
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I agree with Sims here; Magic Coat is a varied status-reflecting move. Basically, this is like saying that Magic Coat is banned from being used because it can break a clause.

Again, you can't know what move they're using. They could have Spore, Leech Seed, Toxic, Stun Spore, things like that. I know most commonly it's gonna be Spore, but still...there's always the potential of something else.
 

The REAL Shadow Chaos

The one and only REAL Chaos!
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Just to clarify, Deoxys-E is probably the best revenge killer in D/P outspeeding and threatening many pokemon, including Scarfers. Now back to the discussion at hand:
I think Dugtrio is a better revenge killer. He has a super ability for revenge killing. Focus Sash Trapinch can revenge kill too (He has a stronger EQ)but can only be used once and can do nothing else than revenge kill 1 Pokemon.
 
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I think Dugtrio is a better revenge killer. He has a super ability for revenge killing. Focus Sash Trapinch can revenge kill too (He has a stronger EQ)but can only be used once and can do nothing else than revenge kill 1 Pokemon.
Deoxys can outspeed Choice Scarfers without a priority move and still revenge kill which Dugtrio fails to do.Trapinch is pathetic unless your trying to make people laugh or you're on PBR.It's movepool is predictable since it has few usable moves.
 

Anti

return of the king
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I have to say sims, a lot of people take the game more seriously than you do. Even if you think it is ridiculous, people DO take it very seriously (cough me cough).

I actually agree Wobbuffet is OU. Almost all teams carry a PHazer or a U-Turner, both of which counter Wobbuffet. You can also Shadow Sneak it with Dusknoir or Dark Pulse it with Houndoom (my point being that counter doesn't affect ghosts and mirror coat doesn't affect dark types).

Besides, Wobbuffet is quite fragile considering its role. With Spikes support, all you have to be able to do is 4HKO it to beat it. Without Spikes support, all you need is a 3HKO, which isn't all that difficult to accomplish.

Call it overcentralization, but almost every team I've played against carries something that can Roar or 3HKO Wobbuffet, or a Dark or ghost type. Come on, everybody uses Gengar these days.

Shadow Tag is an extreme pain, but so is Dugtrio's Arena Trap where getting it in on Raikou means Raikou is dead. While that is true with Wobbuffet, only on a much wider scale than Dugtrio, it falters beyond those pokemon. As Aquillae mentioned, a lot of high OUs don't have any real counters, where being outpredicted means you lose a pokemon. I just scout for Wobbuffet at the beginning of every battle and I never have problems.

Wobbuffet users can be smart, but you can outsmart them by taking necessary precautions, none of which over centralize anything. you just need to know what pokemon are Wobbuffet bait and counter opposing strategies accordingly.

For example, in Advance Celebi was destroyed by Dugtrio, and Celebi happens to be the staple of my stall team. With that in mind, I always scout for Dugtrio either before I bring it out or the very next turn after I bring it out.
 

sims796

We're A-Comin', Princess!
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I have to say sims, a lot of people take the game more seriously than you do. Even if you think it is ridiculous, people DO take it very seriously (cough me cough).
That isn't all too healthy. I won't continute the discussion with that in mind, in fact, I will only consider it with a grain of salt. It is a Pokemon video game, not life, and I will make my points with that in mind.
I actually agree Wobbuffet is OU. Almost all teams carry a PHazer or a U-Turner, both of which counter Wobbuffet. You can also Shadow Sneak it with Dusknoir or Dark Pulse it with Houndoom (my point being that counter doesn't affect ghosts and mirror coat doesn't affect dark types).
Why would Wobbo come out on a ghost type, anyway? Or a Dark type for that matter? Or, most importantly, a hazer? Use U-Turn, the next thing will get hit hard.
Besides, Wobbuffet is quite fragile considering its role. With Spikes support, all you have to be able to do is 4HKO it to beat it. Without Spikes support, all you need is a 3HKO, which isn't all that difficult to accomplish.
Hoping you don't get counterd in the process.
Call it overcentralization, but almost every team I've played against carries something that can Roar or 3HKO Wobbuffet, or a Dark or ghost type. Come on, everybody uses Gengar these days.
Maybe on shoddy, I'll leave that alone.
Shadow Tag is an extreme pain, but so is Dugtrio's Arena Trap where getting it in on Raikou means Raikou is dead. While that is true with Wobbuffet, only on a much wider scale than Dugtrio, it falters beyond those pokemon. As Aquillae mentioned, a lot of high OUs don't have any real counters, where being outpredicted means you lose a pokemon. I just scout for Wobbuffet at the beginning of every battle and I never have problems.
So it is really that simple? Simply saying "you can outpredict it!" isn't enough to consider it's place.
Wobbuffet users can be smart, but you can outsmart them by taking necessary precautions, none of which over centralize anything. you just need to know what pokemon are Wobbuffet bait and counter opposing strategies accordingly.
As I said, saying "outsmart them" isn't good enough.
For example, in Advance Celebi was destroyed by Dugtrio, and Celebi happens to be the staple of my stall team. With that in mind, I always scout for Dugtrio either before I bring it out or the very next turn after I bring it out.

Since I must post something here for some reason, I'll just say what I said. I won't speak as if this game is a hardcore compettitive sport, only for the "elite". I will speak & make points based on the everyday, average standard player. I won't make it like someone who has turned a child's game (which is what it is) into something "hardcore" and a "serious business". Whether or not it is used on shoddy, I don't care. Put Wobbo there if you like.
 
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Anti

return of the king
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It's just like anything else though. We are talking about battlers who play to win. Period. If you don't take it that seriously, more power to you, but don't bring that up here since it's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, outsmarting Wobbuffet players is the best you can do. You can wave the red flag and say it's uber because of that, but outsmarting Wobbuffet is ridiculously easy. BTW, U-Turn + switch to ghost = Counter fails. and while nobody is going to switch Wobbuffet in on something like spiritomb, you can scout for Wobbuffet and have Spiritomb keep Wobbuffet away.

Also, whether you 3HKO or 4HKO Wobbuffet, you're going to get counter/mirror coated. You will most likely survive (as you aren't doing much damage with an attack that can only 3HKO or 4HKO). The strategy still works. So basically, switching in on ANY powerful sweeper is going to be trouble for Wobbuffet.

Besides, Wobbuffet probably isn't going to know if your PHazer is really a PHazer. for example, Hippowdon only sometimes carries Roar, so playing the guessing game is trouble for Wobbuffet. My Zapdos happens to have Roar, so when it comes in, it's quite easy to Roar it. Also, even though Wobbuffet can Encore you, Toxic will beat it (and Toxic is growing to be quite common). No matter how it tries, Wobbuffet is going to be worn down by Toxic fairly quickly.

You also must not forget its weakness to Pursuit.

So really, tell me what team doesn't have at least one of the following:

- A PHazer
- Something with Toxic
- A ghost
- A dark type
- Something that can 3HKO Wobbuffet (or 4HKO with Spikes support)
- U-Turner (even if it uses counter, just roost off the damage or whatever you have to do)

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see a team without at least one of those things. And even if there are some, putting in a PHazer to Roar away Wobby isn't over centralization at all. One move for one pokemon isn't over centralization, just look at Swampert in Advance. Everybody put HP Grass on about every pokemon to beat Swampert, but it wasn't uber and never will be.
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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LOL Anti, you just defined most of my teams. However, I'll have something do the ko-ing thing vs. Wobby. I guess I better get something that's one of the above.

Well, on a few of my teams, I have a phazer.
 

sims796

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It's just like anything else though. We are talking about battlers who play to win. Period. If you don't take it that seriously, more power to you, but don't bring that up here since it's pretty much irrelevant.
First off, I wasn't the one who bought the thing up. In fact, Aquillae bought it up as one of his points. So don't try that "don't bring it up", as if that's the case, it can't be used as a point to bring wobbo in.
Also, outsmarting Wobbuffet players is the best you can do. You can wave the red flag and say it's uber because of that, but outsmarting Wobbuffet is ridiculously easy. BTW, U-Turn + switch to ghost = Counter fails. and while nobody is going to switch Wobbuffet in on something like spiritomb, you can scout for Wobbuffet and have Spiritomb keep Wobbuffet away.
The same could be said about Chomp.
Also, whether you 3HKO or 4HKO Wobbuffet, you're going to get counter/mirror coated. You will most likely survive (as you aren't doing much damage with an attack that can only 3HKO or 4HKO). The strategy still works. So basically, switching in on ANY powerful sweeper is going to be trouble for Wobbuffet.
But you will feel double of those hits. It must hit hard enough to Both OHKO & 2HKO it.
Besides, Wobbuffet probably isn't going to know if your PHazer is really a PHazer. for example, Hippowdon only sometimes carries Roar, so playing the guessing game is trouble for Wobbuffet. My Zapdos happens to have Roar, so when it comes in, it's quite easy to Roar it. Also, even though Wobbuffet can Encore you, Toxic will beat it (and Toxic is growing to be quite common). No matter how it tries, Wobbuffet is going to be worn down by Toxic fairly quickly.
That's because your team happens to suit it. Are you planning on putting Toxic on every poke?
You also must not forget its weakness to Pursuit.

So really, tell me what team doesn't have at least one of the following:

- A PHazer
- Something with Toxic
- A ghost
- A dark type
- Something that can 3HKO Wobbuffet (or 4HKO with Spikes support)
- U-Turner (even if it uses counter, just roost off the damage or whatever you have to do)

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see a team without at least one of those things. And even if there are some, putting in a PHazer to Roar away Wobby isn't over centralization at all. One move for one pokemon isn't over centralization, just look at Swampert in Advance. Everybody put HP Grass on about every pokemon to beat Swampert, but it wasn't uber and never will be.
So seriously, you'd need to put that on almost every poke in order for those to be considerd "counter" for him. Like you said earlier "simply saying Taunt beats Wobbo doesn't mean a damn". Wobbo will come in & will be able to take out about two of your pokes, without much effort, unless you decide to make your teams consistently of what "beats" it. And you make it seem like Wobbo users hasn't considered it's flaws. The fact that it prevents switches makes those "counters" moot. Unless the users just plain goofs up.
 

Dark Azelf

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You also must not forget its weakness to Pursuit.

It can stay in ? It doesnt guarantee a kill regardless, as i will demonstrate later.

So really, tell me what team doesn't have at least one of the following:

- A PHazer
- Something with Toxic
- A ghost
- A dark type
- Something that can 3HKO Wobbuffet (or 4HKO with Spikes support)
- U-Turner (even if it uses counter, just roost off the damage or whatever you have to do)

.


1. Wow, you can blow it away 0_0 for a few turns. That not helping in countering it.
2. Safeguard / Aromatherapy and Heal bell (Wobby buddy, AKA its support partner who is ALWAYS on the same team as it).
3. Ill come to this later
4. Yes and whilst you 3hko it will likely ohko you with counter and mirror coat due to its huge hp.
5. So i MUST use a ghost to counter this. Namely spiritomb, who is the best ghost to switch into it, still if it encores anything stupid your just going to be set up bait.

Even if you do use spikes there is a possibility of Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes absorbency (Tentacruel for example). Spikes ? Yeah, thats if wobby doesnt use your anti spin as set up fodder and to let a fellow poke set up on it.

Also this is over centralization, why do i have to use a ghost, Toxic Spikes, Spikes and possibly SR to guarantee a kill on wobby and to stop me becoming set up fodder by say a Belly Zard etc ? and to stop spin.

Besides, Wobbuffet is quite fragile considering its role. With Spikes support, all you have to be able to do is 4HKO it to beat it. Without Spikes support, all you need is a 3HKO, which isn't all that difficult to accomplish.


I hope people realize the durability of this thing.

Max sp.att Gengar@Choice Specs

Damage: 83.72% - 98.47%

On 6 HP / 252 SP.DEF NEUTRAL NATURE Wobuffet


Thats probably the most powerful Ghost attacking wise in OU, am i right ? its equipt with Choice Specs aswell. AND STILL IT WONT ohko =/.


Here is something for you aswell, now Choice Band Tyranitars Crunch is the most powerful dark move in ou. No questions asked.

Adamant Tyranitar@Choice Band

Damage: 85.06% - 100.00%

on 6 hp / 252 def Positive Nature wobby.

Wobby HAS A CHANCE TO LIVE THAT.



Yay, the most powerful SE on it in OU wont guarantee a kill on it, oh joy =)


Now before you say, "so, thats basically a ohko ?" yes whilst that may be true, but these are not attacks wobby users should be letting it stay in for. By that i mean, im giving examples of HOW hard a hit this thing can take.



Now, the next part , whilst you say 3/4hkoing it is the way to beat wobby, its really not, i have yet to see a Wobuffet used by competent players NOT be used with wish support.


It can also take walls out easily and make the rest of you team pay, for example, i had a battle with sims, sent my wobby in on a turn he used Pain Split with his Dusknoir, Encored... GO GO Bellz Zard.

It doesnt even have to be Belly Zard, anything can use you as fodder.



Its not just the way Wobby DIRECTLY beats your team with Counter Coat, its the way it indirectly beats you with Encore. I feel the latter is more of an issue.


Just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
261
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  • Seen Mar 4, 2012

Information


This is a discussion thread for one of the very few things PC is missing, a Tier List. Here you can discuss why you think a Pokemon should have a higher or lower Tier than it already does. We will be starting out with Marriland's Tier List but I think it's flawed a little so hopefully we can work out the kinks and have a good Tier reference for the battling section. To start off I'll list Marriland's Tier List:

Uber

This section is for Pokemon with insanly high stats that can't normally be defeated by a normal Tier Pokemon or they have a combination of huge movepools and gigantic overall stats.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms excluding Speed)
Dialga
Garchomp
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (regardless of Soul Dew)
Latios (Same as Latias)
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza

Question: why is garchomp in the uber tier? i mean its pretty damn strong, but not deserving of uber status surely. i mean its on par with salamence metagross and tyranitar, and they arent ubers.
 
261
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  • Seen Mar 4, 2012
damn, this rends chomp useless lol.

it gets OWNED in uber tier, but is to good for standard play.

most people dont use sandstorm anyways, so the accuracy bit is off.

but i guess with its good moveset and stats most people will have serious problems countering it..... it is very hard to beat.
 

Dark Azelf

☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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damn, this rends chomp useless lol.

it gets OWNED in uber tier, but is to good for standard play.

most people dont use sandstorm anyways, so the accuracy bit is off.

but i guess with its good moveset and stats most people will have serious problems countering it..... it is very hard to beat.

It doesnt matter if the poke is useless or not in ubers, if its too broke for ou, it will get banned.

Actually Chomp does hold its own in ubers anyways.
 
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