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Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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Yeah, I think Wobb is being shoved back into Ubers now (If we haven't here, then we should.) There's enough information here to basically prove that. However, we all remember one thing. Taunt > Wobby!
 

Anti

return of the king
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Yeah, I think Wobb is being shoved back into Ubers now (If we haven't here, then we should.) There's enough information here to basically prove that. However, we all remember one thing. Taunt > Wobby!

I think we all know Taunt > Wobby, but we also know any even decent Wobbuffet user isn't going to be switching into Tauntrados or anything expecting victory. Not to say you're disagreeing or anything, but I cannot stress enough at how pointless going on about Taunt is ;)
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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Which is why I dropped Taunt on Mr. T (Tyranitar) and soon to be Gyarados. I've only found two uses recently.

1. Stopping Loto from setting up Trick Room in a match we had.
2. Stopping a Forretress from setting up Spikes/SR

Both causes made switches to decent counters. Therefore, it just let Gyarados dish out some decent damage before it had to scurry out of there.

Anyway, I shouldn't spam this place with Gyarados. It hasn't had any issues, nor has anything other than Wobby really, and that's basically settled.
 

Ooka

[font=Maven Pro][color=#A75EE2]Cosmic[/color][/fon
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Well, I keep Taunt on mine because I've set up on Skarms before and swept a whole team.
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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I have a Skarmory, but I rarely use it seeing as with Forretress, he can Spin and setup, although he can't phaze. It also allows me to freely keep a mixed wall position open for a non-spinner, such as Swampert or Vaporeon, both which guard Forry decently well except against MixApe (where Vappy will be nailed by Close Combat, although Vappy will come out on top.)

So are there any other big issues of pokemon going around now that should be looked at?
 

Ooka

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Well, even though I love the thing, and I hate using OU, I have been seeing quite a bit of Charizards lately...
 

sims796

We're A-Comin', Princess!
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I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.
 

_Prince_

Pikachu?
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I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.

You're not really breaking the sleep clause. You're only trying to defend yourself. Then again I'm not too sure but I'm about 90% sure that's not breaking the clause.
 

Ooka

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I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.

Actually, unfortunately for you, yes, it is. Because you have to think of it along the lines of, if you're Pokemon hadn't been there, they wouldn't have 2 Pokemon asleep. Now when it comes to Rest, even if the Opponent didn't have out a Pokemon, they could have 2 Pokemon asleep. in other words, it was your fault that 2 of their Pokes are asleep.
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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Actually, I don't think it does. This goes back to one situation. We go back to the Wobbuffet vs. Sleeper situation. Sleeper uses sleep move, but misses. Wobb Encores it. Now the sleeper can't switch out. Say Wobb stays in and gets put to sleep. Then, Wobb switches out, but you still can't choose any other move. They bring in Pory-Z, and it's put to sleep. This situation doesn't break sleep clause because it was forced upon the opponent itself. The user had no choice.

This way is almost similar. What if you're expecting a Toxic (lol)? You'll want to Magic Coat it back. Therefore, this is like saying "Hey, you did this to yourself," which in this case, it's literal. Grumpig didn't use Spore, but Breloom did.
 

Ooka

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Actually, I don't think it does. This goes back to one situation. We go back to the Wobbuffet vs. Sleeper situation. Sleeper uses sleep move, but misses. Wobb Encores it. Now the sleeper can't switch out. Say Wobb stays in and gets put to sleep. Then, Wobb switches out, but you still can't choose any other move. They bring in Pory-Z, and it's put to sleep. This situation doesn't break sleep clause because it was forced upon the opponent itself. The user had no choice.

This way is almost similar. What if you're expecting a Toxic (lol)? You'll want to Magic Coat it back. Therefore, this is like saying "Hey, you did this to yourself," which in this case, it's literal. Grumpig didn't use Spore, but Breloom did.


No, but also Grumpig wasn't trapped in and stuck on using the same move over and over again. The user had the option of 3 other moves and 5 other Pokemon, but chose to use the 1 move that would put the opponent's Pokemon to sleep.
 

ABYAY

Advancing the Yarzan species
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but again, there's one thing; Other status conditions. Okay I know it's common sense to not run Toxic on a Breloom. However, these days, noob trainers might. That's one key factor. Since it reflects back any status or even Leech seed, it's unpredictable. Therefore, the "You did this to yourself" thing applies again. Also, you see that it reflects back Leech Seed, so again, another issue.
 

Anti

return of the king
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I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the [email protected] must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.
 

World King

Twilight Silver Beast
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In what I think, It's because of the limited movepool or their base stat spread. For example, Deoxys-E has an outstanding speed, but in other stats, it's an average one. And Celebi, for example has an amazing 7 weaknesses, and most Biis will be baton passes, so it's pretty counterable.
 

Dark Azelf

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I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the [email protected] must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.


lol Rayquaza IS NOT walled by steel walls , it has Overheat /Fire Blast / Flamethrower coming from base 150 sp.att =/. Hell even EQ.


Max hp / max def skarmory takes like 47% from a DD Life Orb'd Outrage with Stealth Rock, thats a 2hko, which is really broken. Again, if a pokemon with such high def takes that much from an Outrage really that tells me something is wrong. It's standard set is DD/EQ/Overheat/Outrage, this hits every pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage, and coming off such a high attack stat at Ray Ray, really, it has no counters this side of Arceus and possibly Lugia and Groudon. Dialga can to an extent switch into outrages. " I can revenge kill it with Ice Shard" again, whilst this is viable, really that is not countering squat, Rayquaza gets Extremespeed and there is always the possibility of Yache Berry.






But this is Obi's post about how he feels its mostly determined.

Overcentralization

The argument here (most often used with regard to Kyogre and Groudon, the weather ubers) is that if we allow a Pokemon, there will be less usable Pokemon. "If you allow Kyogre, no one will use Luvdisc, Suicune, Milotic, Butterfree, Pikachu, or Geodude, and all teams will be forced to carry their own Kyogre and a Ludicolo, so there will be less usable Pokemon." This argument is entirely statistical. That means that if this is the reason for uberizing a Pokemon, we can use the Shoddy usage list to verify whether this argument holds water. This is the most objective of all the definitions of uber.

No counters

This is the main reason for the complaints behind Wobbuffet and, for different reasons, Deoxys-S. I'll start with Wobbuffet, because it's easier to discuss with regards to the "no counters" situation.

Wobbuffet's ability, Shadow Tag, means nothing can switch out of it. A counter by definition must be able to switch in. Unless the Pokemon out is holding a Shed Shell, has Baton Pass or U-turn, or has Role Play, Skill Swap, or is also Wobbuffet (or Wynaut), you cannot bring a counter in on Wobbuffet. Proponents of this argument must address the issue of Dugtrio, Trapinch, Magneton, Magnezone, and Probopass.

For other Pokemon, the "no counters" argument takes a slightly more vague reasoning. Imagine a Pokemon with 500 base Attack, Special Attack, and Speed. This Pokemon could OHKO anything it faces (and is faster than everything), so the only way to stop it would be with priority moves like Quick Attack, Extremespeed, and Sucker Punch (or an opposing version of itself that is faster). However, unless there were a similarly defensive Pokemon, you couldn't bring in any of these Pokemon to stop it, and thus you'd be forced to sacrifice something to bring in your "counter", and it would likely switch out and come in later to repeat the cycle. Here, the problem isn't that you cannot switch in at all, but that you cannot switch in safely. Obviously this is more extreme than any real example, but Pokemon like Deoxys-A and Mewtwo are similar to this scenario.

Alternately, consider the case of a Pokemon with base 500 HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Here, you can switch in safely (assuming it has low-average offenses), but once you're in, you can't do anything. A counter must be able to switch in safely and threaten the Pokemon it is said to be countering. I may be able to switch in Milotic safely on a Substitute, Calm Mind, Surf, Ice Beam Kyogre, but what am I going to do as it Calm Minds up?

Luck

One of the arguments surrounding Garchomp is that Sand Veil means that even if you have a counter for it, you may not be able to stop it thanks to Sand Veil missing. The more luck influences Pokemon, the less skill does.

Hyper-offensive Pokemon like Deoxys-A also have an element of luck. You are forced to make guesses as to what move it will use and what set it has as soon as it comes out. This decision is forced before you can possibly have enough information to stop "guessing" and begin "predicting".

This is one of the major arguments in favor of banning Double Team / Minimize and OHKOs.

This is probably the most subjective reason of all, as you have to make a judgment on how much luck is too much (or whether the increased element is even there to begin with).


That sums it up pretty well i think. There are other minor things, but realistically those are the 3 main factors i believe.


With these so called "ubers" getting moved down, is the way that the above doesnt really apply to them, Deoxys Speed was automatically moved up straight into uber in advance, no test, people just saw its awesome movepool and insane speed and the fact its name is "Deoxys". In reality it has mediocre everything apart from its speed, it cant sweep for jack, infact cant do anything good apart from revenge kill. People again didnt look at Garchomp in depth, they just saw it as another 600 BS poke, which cannot be uber, they didnt look at what damage this thing can really do and the fact it has no 100% counter. Latias is under consideration atm, because it has counter and down falls and without Soul Dew, steels, pursuit, specs set is walled easily. DD set is laughed at by bronzong and Skarmory etc and with no good fire move, it walled all day long due to movest syndrome, and is an inferior mence/Nite. Calm mind set also has movest syndrome, Recover/CM/ two attacking moves DOES NOT cover everything and is impossible to not get walled. It also has common weaknesses, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, Bug, all team with have at least one move that is SE on it.
 
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Aquilae

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With these so called "ubers" getting moved down, is the way that the above doesnt really apply to them, Deoxys Speed was automatically moved up straight into uber in advance, no test, people just saw its awesome movepool and insane speed and the fact its name is "Deoxys". In reality it has mediocre everything apart from its speed, it can sweep for jack, infact cant do anything good apart from revenge kill.

Just to clarify, Deoxys-E is probably the best revenge killer in D/P outspeeding and threatening many pokemon, including Scarfers. Now back to the discussion at hand:

I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the [email protected] must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.

Smogon is testing the Ubers for OU because they wanted to gauge whether it would have a negative impact on the metagame. Advance is Advance, D/P is D/P. The prejudices emanating from Advance contributes to the sketchy state of the tiers. UU/BL is unconfirmed and more or less based on Advance, but people are arguing about the tier placement of Pinsir among others that got a boost in D/P.

Deoxys-S posed a much greater threat in Advance due to outspeeding the whole metagame and lack of priority moves to down it with. It has taken a hit in D/P following the introduction of Choice Scarf and common sweepers who run priority moves - Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, Ice Shard.

In my opinion, the things that need to be confirmed before testing are the changes made to the pokemon in D/P. The physical/special split makes D/P a very different game than Advance, boosting Pursuit and other moves. The performance of the pokemon in a given tier also has to be considered, even though people say that the tier placement of a pokemon has no relation to its strength.
For example, Deoxys-S can't do anything in Ubers except revenge kill, and it is far overshadowed by its other form Deoxys-A. That is part of the reason why Shoddy decided to test it in the first place.
Another example is Wobbuffet, which isn't a good fit in Ubers consdering the vast number of strong sweepers that run amok in Ubers. Wobbuffet got seriously hampered by the introduction of Choice Specs and Life Orb, and is too fragile to be brought in against sweepers.
As in Obi's post, the main reason is overcentralisation around a particular threat. Groudon and Kyogre are firmly Uber due to their complete changing of the metagame introducing weather-starting moves. That way people would use more weather changers and more Swift Swimmers and pokemon that generally work well in said weather conditions, leaving certain pokemon untouched. If Rayquaza were to be introduced into the metagame, it would certainly force everyone to carry a defensive Steel-type to counter it.
 

sims796

We're A-Comin', Princess!
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No, but also Grumpig wasn't trapped in and stuck on using the same move over and over again. The user had the option of 3 other moves and 5 other Pokemon, but chose to use the 1 move that would put the opponent's Pokemon to sleep.

But that's where I would refer to what ABYAY said. I do have the right to defend myself, and as such, I have the right to reflect such moves. For all I know, it COULD use Toxic, it COULD use Leech Seed. Just because one of his pokes are asleep, doesn't mean he automatically gets to put one of mine to sleep, if the only way I can defend myself is with Magic Coat.

It sounds dumb, but anyone using a status move on Grumpig runs the risk of having iti bounced back to them.
 

Dark Azelf

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I strongly disagree with Wobby being moved down, i didnt see it until now.


1. It has no counters and cant be countered.

2. it causes Over centralization, why should i have to use Taunt and Toxic Spikes just to kill that thing ? You do realize it can survive a Scarf Heracross's Megahorn and a Black Glasses boosted Crunch from Jolly Tyranitar right ? < Thats just how hard it is to get rid of.

3. Shoddy sucks ass, so dont even base it getting moved down on that, the only reason its still OU there is because players dont use it out of respect for other players. So usage statistics there are unreliable due to the fact that they show it not being number 1 on usage and dont make the item shed shed shell appear more, if players freely used it, the item and taunt use would go through the roof. Even most players on smogon actually are against it.

4. Why should i even bother using Swords Dance or Dragon Dance any more =/, Hell support moves in general ? if it encores one im as good as swept, its just a frikkin free switch in for Belly Zard or some other crap.


Please, some things i can understand, but Wobby is stupid and needs to be put back where it belongs, that being uber. Where other broken crap with no counters belongs.

Deoxys, cant sweep for jack so i agree with that, like ive said before and really is only a good revenge killer so is Ou, im fine with that.

Garchomp is broke, can be debatable, but yeah.

Wobby, is just broke.
 
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