To be honest, there wasn't much discussion, let alone debate going on here until those with opposing opinions pitched in. If you want to keep it happy, it deserves to be moved into Celebrations. Otherwise our nature will have its way and this thread will become the product of the forum it's in.
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE NOW LEGAL IN NEW ZEALAND
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Link me to this way. I would LOVE to know. I'm sure it's very expensive and not readily available to the average woman though. And that's a bit mean to say about post-menopausal women. Maybe they didn't find the one till afterwards and never had the chance to have their own child in the environment they wanted.
Yes. It's been proven. I don't know what "what grant one of them won't be attracted to him" is supposed to mean, though.
Because people love each other and want the legal binding. There are things that would prevent someone other than a spouse from doing something, like certain hospital visitations. And you also have to consider death. If one passes and they're not married, there may be things that don't legally allow the widow to receive anything, and what if the couple is elderly and the widow can't do much to support their self?
And I find it weird that people, straight or gay, would even want to have sex. Doesn't mean I should stop people from having sex or yell at them about it.
Or if it keeps getting into the family argument, apparently haha. It's not my thread or my forum though. Can't put this in Celebrations. ;) Though I have to wonder how the CCP mods would feel if someone made this type of thread in there. I don't have a problem with the differing opinions though, but some of them have just been expressed so...badly, so to speak. In such a way that the phrase "if you can't say anything nice, don't say nothin' at all" comes to mind. But that's just me. Of course people are gonna be nice, rude, crude, nude, etc wherever they want.
Broken_Arrow
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1- according to my traditions and religion.. YES! you need to be married to start a family
2-loveless marrige is hell and no point of it
i do agree that marrige isn't about family only ..love,happiness and sharing good and bad times with a person you want to be with but also children as people say are fruits of love lol couldn't find a better expression tbh! lol
thanks for the information though :)
Yusshin
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I get the feeling you're treating homosexuals as lesser humans. Are heterosexual fathers attracted to their daughters? Do mothers fantasize about their sons? Typically, no, because it's immoral. Homosexuals have morals, too.
As well, I'll reiterate: Marriage =\= Family. Marriage is love and recognition in the law. It denotes equal status in union in the country where the papers are signed. It has nothing to do with having children, wanting children or anything to do with children. There are a lot of heterosexual, children-less couples who do not have children and are considered a "family." Maybe it'd do you good to study some sociology / anthropology / psychology as to understand why this is and why it doesn't apply to heterosexual or homosexual marriages.
And I agree. This should've been in Ceremonies.
[Edit]
And sure, but again, study some anthro / socio / psycho and you'll see that sometimes people's "fruits of love" come in other forms other than just reproduction.
@Sydian
I guess I take your multi-post respond to be your official blessing that it stays in D&D? XD
It feels good though! That +oxytocin and more exercise than most people in Western nations probably do a day = adrenaline rush like no other.
That's what I've found really weird about homosexuality though. Because heterosexuals are attracted to an outgroup, so sexual/romantic scripts are appropriate for an outgroup. But homosexuals are attracted to the ingroup, and I'm assuming that their sexual/romantic scripts are equivalent to those of straight people because we all live in one society and heterosexuals are a large majority. If I assume wrong, what does the script look like?
I think my girlfriend is increasingly right the more I read these discussions. I think marriages shouldn't be recognized by the state anymore, and the language should be toned down to "civil unions". Because if it's not about children, not about love, not about religion - but you still want the tax benefits and inheritance? Marriage, as a legal document representing love, is useless.
Edit: but I want a love marriage :( - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojTlYNNm9w
I guess I take your multi-post respond to be your official blessing that it stays in D&D? XD
It feels good though! That +oxytocin and more exercise than most people in Western nations probably do a day = adrenaline rush like no other.
Yusshin said:
That's what I've found really weird about homosexuality though. Because heterosexuals are attracted to an outgroup, so sexual/romantic scripts are appropriate for an outgroup. But homosexuals are attracted to the ingroup, and I'm assuming that their sexual/romantic scripts are equivalent to those of straight people because we all live in one society and heterosexuals are a large majority. If I assume wrong, what does the script look like?
I think my girlfriend is increasingly right the more I read these discussions. I think marriages shouldn't be recognized by the state anymore, and the language should be toned down to "civil unions". Because if it's not about children, not about love, not about religion - but you still want the tax benefits and inheritance? Marriage, as a legal document representing love, is useless.
Edit: but I want a love marriage :( - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojTlYNNm9w
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Broken_Arrow
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Yusshin
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There are homosexual females, too. What about a pair of lesbians who raise a son? Your "attracted to their kid" argument is invalid there. Same with two men who raise a daughter.
As for not knowing how to rais'em, I'm sure they had siblings, or friends, or family even that could teach'em along the way. There are books, family doctors, groups, etc. for that kind of thing, too. I really don't see the correlation between homosexual parents = bad parents.
As for not knowing how to rais'em, I'm sure they had siblings, or friends, or family even that could teach'em along the way. There are books, family doctors, groups, etc. for that kind of thing, too. I really don't see the correlation between homosexual parents = bad parents.
That's like saying a straight couple has a kids and the mother is attracted to the son or the father is attracted to the daughter. Just because the couple is homosexual, it doesn't mean they're attracted to EVERYONE of their sex. The child being adopted doesn't make a difference either. If a gay couple cares enough to go out of their way to adopt a child, which by the way is not a short or easy process, I doubt they'd do it just for that reason alone. I have more faith in humanity and adoptive parents than that.
So? Damn, who wants to get pregnant and give birth and go through that? lol There are so many children already in the world that need to be adopted anyway. Straight couple can't do it alone. And gay couples don't add to the population. We don't need as many people in the world like we used to in the 1700's. And the child won't really know a difference if they grow up with two same sex parents. Believe me, if they're young and it's all they know, the strange ones to them will be people with parents of different sexes. I grew up in a single-parent household. It was so normal to me that I thought everyone did. I don't see this as being any different from that.
It was a comparison. My point was that I don't like sex. I can't make people not have sex though. You don't like gay marriage. You can't tell people not to have one.
Actually tell that to the Asians and Africans. The West needs more babies! or more immigrants.
But sex positivity! I think that's how a lot of people who personally don't agree with same-sex marriage frame the question. If you make it a civil rights issue vs. a religious/moral issue, you'll find that a lot of the barriers you feel gone.
Broken_Arrow
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again,Syd..that was my own opinion...you have your own opinion and it's nothing personal.....opinions difference doesn't make us enemies...you make me feel like i'm having a knife and running everywhere killing homosexuals...lol i won't....for example some people say Muslims are terrorists ...as long as i know i'm not i don't care what people say,in the end it's all opinions won't make differences!
i can have homosexuals as friends but i will tell them i'm against that and i'll ask them what's the point??! *shrugs*
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Yes, marriage is about family. But a family does not need to consist of parents and children. It could just be two adult couples. They're a family. It could be a single parent and a child. That's a family.
Just the same as straight couples raise adopted children. I am adopted, for instance, by a heterosexual couple. And whether you believe it or not, just because people who are gay are attracted to the same sex does not mean they are infertile. There are plenty of children born to gay people all the time. Males can choose surrogacy, and females can choose to get impregnated from a sperm donor.
Of course not. You're not gay. I suggest you do some unbiased research on human sexuality.
That's your belief, and you're welcome to it. Just keep it private and away from those who want to have nothing to do with it. No one has the right or authority to dictate their beliefs on others. I understand that you think being gay is wrong (personally I'm perfectly fine with it, since I am gay, and in a long-term relationship with a really wonderful guy.), but if you for one instance work to deprive others of their rights because of your beliefs, then you cross a line that should not be crossed.
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Oryx
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When I mentioned menopause BA, I was referring to couples who get married after the woman has already gone through menopause. If your argument is "she chose to get married after she could have kids", then you by logic must support lesbians marrying - they are fully capable of having children, they just choose not to.
Your points, if you looked at them from a perspective that isn't "GAY IS BAD", are actually very offensive towards gay people. You really think gay people would be attracted to a child of the same sex? Do you realize how offensive that is? Also, if your argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore gay people shouldn't get married", I think the more logical argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore father shouldn't be allowed around their kids".
Your points, if you looked at them from a perspective that isn't "GAY IS BAD", are actually very offensive towards gay people. You really think gay people would be attracted to a child of the same sex? Do you realize how offensive that is? Also, if your argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore gay people shouldn't get married", I think the more logical argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore father shouldn't be allowed around their kids".
@Broken_Arrow - Are you kidding me? These days most heterosexual couples
a) Don't last
b) Are Terrible parents.
These are mostly young couples who have babies and treat them as fashion accessories because they want the fun part and aren't prepared to put the work in to actually raise their child.
If a homosexual couple can raise the kid with love and care for them properly, who cares what their gender is?
As for using religion as an excuse, firstly marriage and religion are growing more and more separate each day. Organised religion isn't able to keep up with the current, free-thinking mindset which is why the two are becoming less intertwined and why organised religion still follow archaic, prejudiced and narrow-minded ethical standards.
If you want to bring the bible into things (admittedly my knowledge isn't great, I don't follow organised religion), when it says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as though he would a women (somewhere in Leviticus) it could quite easily be, and often is, interpreted to mean that a man should not treat another man as though they are of the same worth as a women, because back in the times of the bible men were considered to be worth more than women (which makes me wonder what was so bad about gay marriage also). If you want to use religion as an argument against gay-marriage you should be following it down to a "t" - so I hope you have sacrificed your quota of sheep.
a) Don't last
b) Are Terrible parents.
These are mostly young couples who have babies and treat them as fashion accessories because they want the fun part and aren't prepared to put the work in to actually raise their child.
If a homosexual couple can raise the kid with love and care for them properly, who cares what their gender is?
As for using religion as an excuse, firstly marriage and religion are growing more and more separate each day. Organised religion isn't able to keep up with the current, free-thinking mindset which is why the two are becoming less intertwined and why organised religion still follow archaic, prejudiced and narrow-minded ethical standards.
If you want to bring the bible into things (admittedly my knowledge isn't great, I don't follow organised religion), when it says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as though he would a women (somewhere in Leviticus) it could quite easily be, and often is, interpreted to mean that a man should not treat another man as though they are of the same worth as a women, because back in the times of the bible men were considered to be worth more than women (which makes me wonder what was so bad about gay marriage also). If you want to use religion as an argument against gay-marriage you should be following it down to a "t" - so I hope you have sacrificed your quota of sheep.
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As I said before, I don't care if someone has a differing opinion, but you are expressing them so disrespectfully. I just couldn't leave it alone and not reply. You are free to have your differing opinion and that's fine, but when you put it out there the way you are right now, don't expect no one to just let it fly free. It's offending people.
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That verse has been so grossly been mistranslated, it's no wonder that people don't even know what the original text says. The verse could easily be translated to state: "It is an abomination for a man that lies with a woman if he also lies with mankind." Or: "A man that lies with a woman commits abomination if he lies with mankind, too." Or even: "If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, they have committed an abomination." These translations clearly refers to a heterosexual who has been with a woman, but has left the woman for a man.
I would offer the following link for further reading:
http://gaychristiansurvivors.tripod.com/id7.html
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As a gay man continuously having these "clobber passages" thrown at me time and time again, I've found it advantageous to explore them and their meaning further than most people probably would. Your interpretation of the verse is a pretty sound one, although lexicologists may take issue with all our interpretations.
(Link: Lexicology)
Yusshin
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I thought that verse was pretty clear in its meaning: that homosexuality is wrong; that a man and a woman may lie together, but not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.
But I guess it could be read other ways.
Anyway.
Yay New Zealand!
But I guess it could be read other ways.
Anyway.
Yay New Zealand!
This is bloody wicked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pCDEiaoEP2U#!