Cheap non-Mew2 non-EX good deck? :-)

[vinnie2k]

Hey guys,

First time post here, so please be kind.

My kids and I just started to play Pokémon; we went to a local tourney with the cards we had. I made a water/darkness deck with as many good supporters as I could, 18 energy, and Pokemon based around Empoleon and Zoroark.

We got creamed :-)

Everyone was playing Psy Ex decks, with a couple of Blastoise/KeldeoEX decks.

Me being the contrarian, I'd like to build a deck with the following characteristics:
- cheap :-)
- as few EX as possible
- has a chance of winning some games (being 9 yo and not even being able to KO one of your opponent's Pokemons sucks).

Since we also had some good Psy cards, I decided to try and build a Psy/Water deck with Zoroark, Umbreon (against those decks with lots of energy cards attached to the single monster Pokemon), Gothitelle (Doom Decree) and Drifblim (for all these guys running double energy and special energy cards).

The problem is that I am relying too much on flipping coins...

Any other ideas? Go green? Or electric?

Thank you for your suggestions!

[TrainerTori]

What is your definition of cheap?? That can be a really broad term ;

Compared to a charizard EX, other EXs are cheap.

[Renpuu]

The 2 cheapest decks which are available for tournaments are:
Quad Sigilyph or Speed Darkrai.
Quad Sigilyph is 4 Sigilpyh and 2 Mewtwo EX with alot of trainers and supporters, here is a good idea of a "skeleton" list here
Speed Darkai uses 4 Darkrai EX and 3 Sableye with a fair amount of trainers and supporters.
This deck can also include Terrakion which can help against enemy Darkrai EX. But needs the inclusion of fighting energy. This website shows a variety of different Darkrai decks, so chose the most basic one to start with, which is just pure Darkrai EX which is known as "Hammertime" here

Darkrai and Sableye are just a too powerful in this format to ignore and they fit with the darkness theme.
Mewtwo EX and Darkrai EX can both be acquired as single promo cards or bought as a collectors tin and the rest of the singles vary in price.

Most decks will use around 8-14 basic energy and some will use special energy such as Double Colorless or Blend energy.
Any good Pokemon deck will have a good supporter line up, so if you are on a budget, best to invest in those first.
I don't wish to be rude, but any hobby/game you have to invest money into in order to win tournaments.
Keldeo Blastoise would be a very expensive deck, which is why I avoided it, but it is considered "THE" deck of the current format.
A new set is being released soon and the meta-game will change slightly and may make Quad Sigilyph less viable to play.
I would advise investing more money into Darkrai EX as it's still a strong contender for winning tournaments and Sableye is considered one of the best "support" Pokemon of the format.

[vinnie2k]

Originally Posted by TrainerTori

What is your definition of cheap?? That can be a really broad term ;

Compared to a charizard EX, other EXs are cheap.

Yeah sorry. I was thinking USD 50 max.

@Renpuu: I don't want to *win* tournaments, I just want to be competitive. What do I mean? My kids did not manage to KO a single Pokemon during the tournament, so that's no fun. Competitive for me means to be a sufficient pain in the butt for all those expensive decks, win a few games if we can, and have fun playing longer games than 3 rounds.

I think the suggestions you make are awesome (I have the Sableye already), and it's true that waiting for the new expansion to come might be a good idea since metagame will most certainly shift a bit.

I'll post the new deck list and the current one.

Thanks!

Any opinions on the coin flipping ideas in my original deck?

[Renpuu]

I understand where you are coming from. What I meant by "winning tournaments" is a good chance of being competitive. Coin flips are best to be avoided in most cases. The only time it is used as strategy is mainly with "Crushing Hammer" to discard energy from the opponent, trying to attempt paralysis or using "Super scoop up".
The reason why they added coin flips to these discarding energy or picking up your Pokemon cards is due to balance. The luck factor of getting a discarded energy is balance in comparison to previous formats which "Energy removal" just ran wild and prevented people from using attacks.
The same as just casually picking up a Pokemon with tonnes of energy and then just resetting the damage done to it, is pretty...harsh to the opponent.

If you are using Pokemon that have coin flip attacks, you can use Vicitini ! Also known as
"fliptini"

Spoiler:

This guy allows you to re-flip coin attacks which allow you to give you a better chance of getting "heads". He is also a fairly cheap Pokemon to pick up on the secondary market (eBay, Pokemon traders/sellers)
The downside is that he takes up bench space and is easily KO-ed by Darkrai EX Night spear snipes for 30 damage to the bench.
In terms of the meta-game, coin flip strategies have never worked out well due to EX Pokemon just running wild in the scene and killing these poor support Pokemon.
As well as the addition of "Pokemon Catcher" which can bring up any Pokemon from the bench to the active, means you're less likely to evolve your Pokemon all the time.

[donavannj]

I would like to add that Mewtwo EX, Rayquaza EX, and Darkrai EX can be had for $15 USD per copy from tins at your local major retailer. Those tins come with 4 booster packs as well, so that's actually a pretty good deal.

A general EX counter that's especially effective against Mewtwo EX is the Sigilyph from Dark Explorers, but its low HP total makes it susceptible to powerful non-EX Pokemon. You'll definitely want at least one Mewtwo EX in your deck, though.

Also, a note about Juniors: many kids are running decks their League or their parents helped them build, so they're going to be stronger than you expect.

[vinnie2k]

Originally Posted by donavannj

Also, a note about Juniors: many kids are running decks their League or their parents helped them build, so they're going to be stronger than you expect.

That's absolutely what I saw during our first tournament :-)

The good thing is that it was a small tournament: only 2 juniors, so he played against seniors but got ranked 2nd (out of 2 :-)) => 11 boosters :-P

Originally Posted by Renpuu

The downside is that he takes up bench space and is easily KO-ed by Darkrai EX Night spear snipes for 30 damage to the bench.

Played online against a Darkrai EX deck last night and man did I get crushed :-) My online deck does well against most deck I face online, even against some EX decks:

4-3-2 Empoleon (card drawer + very little energy to play)
3-2 Zoroark (turn 2 active)
3-2 Umbreon (against those decks who stack energy on the one pokemon)
1 Bouffalant (anti-EX, only have 1)
1 Keldeo EX (finisher, only have 1)

2 Energy Retrieval
2 Great Ball
2 Pokemon Catcher (only have 2)
2 Pokemon Communication
1 Rare Candy (only have 1)
3 Switch
4 Cheren
2 Cilan
2 Engineer's Adjustment (works well with Energy Retrieval, Diving Draw from Empoleon)
2 Professor Juniper

9 Water
8 Darkness

[Renpuu]

I can see that this deck needs a few more draw supporters and being able to search for the cards you need.
First of all Engineer's adjustment is not legal in Black/White on-wards format.
So it cannot be included into a tournament legal deck.
I would advise adding in the following:
4 N (great synergy with Empoleon)
2 more Prof Juniper (The best supporter in the game for drawing)
2-3 Energy Search (Allows you to run less energy and search for the energy you need for that turn)
4 Skyla (She allows you to search your deck for any trainer card, so it's very versatile)
2 Random receiver (to ensure you always have a supporter)
2 more Pokemon Catcher

Cut:
Some energy due to energy search being included
1 Cilan because you only need 1 with Skyla

You could even run a heavier Empoleon line such as 4-2-4 to ensure that you're always getting him on board turn 2 !
What set is the Umbreon you are using ?

[vinnie2k]

So here's my current "tournament" deck:

2 Zoroark (DE 71)
3 Zorua (DE 69)
2 Drifblim (DR 51)
2 Drifloon (DR 50)
4 Eevee (DE 84)
3 Umbreon (DE 61)
3 Gothita (DR 55)
2 Gothorita (DR 56)
2 Gothitelle (DR 57)
23

3 Cilan (ND 86)
2 Professor Juniper (DE 98)
4 Cheren (DE 91)
4 Pokemon Communication (BW 99)
2 N (NV 92)
2 Energy Search (BW 93)
2 Energy Retrieval (BW 92)
1 Skyarrow Bridge (ND 91)
20

9 Darkness Energy (BW 111)
6 Psychic Energy (BW 109)
1 Double Colorless Energy (ND 92)
1 Blend Energy GRPD (DR 117)
17

Note that all these cards have been accumulated by just opening boosters and Xmas kids gifts of prebuilt Pokemon decks :-)

I'm not too happy about the balance on the Pokemon side (the 322 and 22 ladders bug me) but I thought I'd need both of these cards (until you guys told me that they had no chance :-D).

Also, on the supporter side, anything I should try to change in the balance of the different types?

[vinnie2k]

Originally Posted by Renpuu

You could even run a heavier Empoleon line such as 4-2-4 to ensure that you're always getting him on board turn 2 !
What set is the Umbreon you are using ?

Wouldn't I need Rare Candy for a 424 lineup?

The Umbreon is a DE version.

With all this card drawing, won't I risk running out of cards against slower decks?

Originally Posted by Renpuu

The 2 cheapest decks which are available for tournaments are:
Quad Sigilyph or Speed Darkrai.

I like the speed darkrai stuff.

But with only 8-10 pokemons in the deck, won't I give my opponent loads of extra starting cards?

[donavannj]

There is the risk of decking out, yes, but all the other decks will likely play this fast, and fast decks generally outpace slower decks in the prize race.

[Renpuu]

The risk of mulligans can be negated by a first turn "N" by forcing your opponent to redraw his/her hand of 6 cards.
Also since majority of players play under 12 basic Pokemon, you're just as likely to get given mulligans as well.
Yes you'll need at least 3 Rare candy and 4 Skyla to ensure turn 2 Empoleon consistently.

[vinnie2k]

Thank you very much for all this input, I'll try to make good use of it :-)

[TrainerTori]

newbie question! when you say like 4-2-4 or whatever, what is that talking about?

[donavannj]

Originally Posted by TrainerTori

newbie question! when you say like 4-2-4 or whatever, what is that talking about?

4-2-4 means that it has 4 of the Basic, 2 of the Stage 1, and 4 of the final stage for that line. Make sense?

[Renpuu]

Yes, I recently added this to the glossary thread.

The same explanation is here:
X-X-X: Pokemon line ups used to describe basic, stage 1 and stage 2 evolution line.
Example: "I run a 4-2-4 of Charizard. So 4 Charmander, 2 Charmeleon, 4 Charizard"
"I run a 2-2 Blissy line. So 2 Chansey and 2 Blissy"