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Does Volcarona deserve a banishment to Uber?

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Sorry, but "Eternal said it" does not make your arguement stronger :(

anyways, jellicent will never beat volcarona because Jellicent takes >35% from bug buzz (and thats not even a fire blast)

Chans+Bliss: allow me to show you +1 LO fire blast

specially defensive blissey (252/252 +spdef lol): 607 Atk vs 405 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 376 - 444 (52.66% - 62.18%)

standard chansey (252/0 neutral nature): 607 Atk vs 369 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 411 - 484 (58.38% - 68.75%)

If you run ttar, then you are probably running sr on it since most people use that sucky mixtar lol

alright so lets just assume you take out ttar to counter latios/latias/insert psychic type here. So lets just assume that you get rocks up with oh, lets just say bronzong. I get a free switch in to 'Top and can use rapid spin. Now you have to set up rocks again, or else ttar becomes dead bait for the rest of the game. literally. So either you bring in Zong again (which is setup bait for a hell lot of the meta) or you let the sun stay up for the whole game. Anyways, I won't use Dugtrio as my arguement, I'll use Wobbufett.

Lets take your terrakion again, now heres your stone edge calc against Wobbufett

scarf terrakion: 357 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 250 (39.96% - 47.35%)

You need sr to 2hko and even with it you don't have a full chance. On the other hand, I just got rid of your counter and now I can plow through your team with volcarona. Also, cb terrakion doesnt cut it because +1 fire blast ohkos lol.

Now lets take dragonite and gyarados!!

dragonite +1 bulky outrage: 472 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (63.64% - 75.00%)

beautiful, you dd on one turn and attack me the next and now you're dead. Have fun, I just got rid of your counter. Bulky Multi scale because otherwise you lose to +1 fire blast.

Gyarados:523 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (80 Base Power): 249 - 294 (47.16% - 55.68%)

+1 bulky waterfall does around that much, not exact but should be pretty close

anyways, as you see, all of your checks are dead. Wat do? get swept? ya



seriously, try volcarona with wobbuffet (god i hate spelling that) and you will see how easy it is to abuse.
 
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Guys, you can't compare Volcarona to Garchomp. Garchomp got banned because of Sand Veil BS and not because of its sweeping prowess. I'd rather face a +2 Chomp than a +2/+2/+2 Volcarona, since for one thing Chomp can be revenged killed easier since it isn't boosting its speed, and Garchomp's STAB isn't powered up by weather, so much so that it can beat "counters" like Gyara [albeit it can use Sand Veil to hax its way past counters, but that's unrelated]. Anyways, I'm on the fence about Volcarona, but some of Eternal's sentiments actually make me lead towards it being uber.

Jellicent - The typing and access to taunt and toxic
Bliss + Chans - can toxic / t-wave, crippling the moth, and also takes hit all day.

ChestoRest Volcarona can usually beat the latter in sun and can probably beat Jelli too since most run no SpD EVs. Plus, using Toxic on Jellicent opens it up to a bunch of other mons, such as Ferro and Ttar, so you're essentially compromising the ability to have a good matchup against a ton of mons to get a good matchup against one.


Eternal said:
Dragonite

Dragonite is so underwhelming its ridiculous. Non EQ-Versions are usually stalled out by Toxic Heatran, Tangrowth destroys Bulky DD, as does Taunt Gliscor if they have Dragon Claw. Toxic in general beats it if you can get past lum. Dragonite is easily phazed and unlike Volcarona, many Dragonite users don't carry a spinner to get rid of SR. Quag straight up beats it if it doesn't crit and full offensive versions end up losing to stuff like Hippowdon or Skarm. CB Nite is probably the best set since it can 2HKO stuff that Bulky DD wouldn't be able to get through which can allow you to rip holes in a team effectively.

Eternal said:
Terrakion

Tangrowth almost always beats it with Giga Drain and can take a +2 CC, Scizor can revenge easily, as can any Scarfer with SE STAB. Gliscor and Hippowdon beat non-balloon versions. Quagsire wins 1 on 1.

Also, not losing the weather war isn't as easy as "Don't let Ttar [or Tran if you rely on that to beat sun] get beaten by Dugtrio". Dugtrio essentially scares them into not switching in, allowing sun to reign free as if you didn't even have a TTar on your team. Ttar doesn't want to switch in on Infernape or any of the grass type sun abusers, so any smart opponent will probably know when its safe for you to get TTar in, since the opportunities are few and far between. Sure, Volc has counters in Gyarados, Blissey and Dragonite, but sun allows it to pretty much bypass the first two, and HP Ground can let it beat Heatran [although using ChestoRest along with Duggy is generally more effective], so you're pretty much limited to something like SPDef Stone Edge Dnite or a Scarfer.
 
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TheBowsinator

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Sorry, but "Eternal said it" does not make your arguement stronger :(


anyways, jellicent will never beat volcarona because Jellicent takes >35% from bug buzz (and thats not even a fire blast)

252SpAtk Life Orb Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Water Absorb Jellicent (Neutral): 33% - 40% (137 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. | and that is fire blast. now look at bug buzz. please back up your statements with calcs. use toxic. Use recover. yay.

Chans+Bliss: allow me to show you +1 LO fire blast

specially defensive blissey (252/252 +spdef lol): 607 Atk vs 405 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 376 - 444 (52.66% - 62.18%)

standard chansey (252/0 neutral nature): 607 Atk vs 369 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 411 - 484 (58.38% - 68.75%)

Here's what i got- 252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Blissey (Neutral): 46% - 54% (331 - 391 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO. | barely 2hko's. In that time, you can para it, toxic, then procede to recover. lol
252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Blissey (+SpDef): 35% - 41% (253 - 297 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. | Not that anyone would use this, but its much less than what you said it would be.

If you run ttar, then you are probably running sr on it since most people use that sucky mixtar lol

alright so lets just assume you take out ttar to counter latios/latias/insert psychic type here. So lets just assume that you get rocks up with oh, lets just say bronzong. I get a free switch in to 'Top and can use rapid spin. Now you have to set up rocks again, or else ttar becomes dead bait for the rest of the game. literally. So either you bring in Zong again (which is setup bait for a hell lot of the meta) or you let the sun stay up for the whole game. Anyways, I won't use Dugtrio as my arguement, I'll use Wobbufett.

Lets take your terrakion again, now heres your stone edge calc against Wobbufett

scarf terrakion: 357 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 250 (39.96% - 47.35%)

You need sr to 2hko and even with it you don't have a full chance. On the other hand, I just got rid of your counter and now I can plow through your team with volcarona. Also, cb terrakion doesnt cut it because +1 fire blast ohkos lol.

Now lets take dragonite and gyarados!!

dragonite +1 bulky outrage: 472 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (63.64% - 75.00%)

beautiful, you dd on one turn and attack me the next and now you're dead. Have fun, I just got rid of your counter. Bulky Multi scale because otherwise you lose to +1 fire blast.

Gyarados:523 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (80 Base Power): 249 - 294 (47.16% - 55.68%)

+1 bulky waterfall does around that much, not exact but should be pretty close

anyways, as you see, all of your checks are dead. Wat do? get swept? ya



seriously, try volcarona with wobbuffet (god i hate spelling that) and you will see how easy it is to abuse.


at the first part, i didn't mean it as "oh he's pro he must be right," i meant it as, he is intelligent, so he can make some pretty good arguments against or for it; in this case he is against it.
 

Dark Azelf

☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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447 PM] Eternal: you need to use that Pokemon yourself
[459 PM] Eternal: and I bet none of the people arguing on Pokecommunity
[407 PM] Eternal: have attained a nice rating
[410 PM] Eternal: abusing Volcarona

Hi im D_A and i got to #1 with sun in the round Blaziken was banned with a Volc + sun team, nice assumption/410. -_-

What Karp said anyway, just because something resists a move doesn't mean it a counter see: Jellicent who is mere Volc set up bait.
 

TheBowsinator

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Just to drop another check, heatran is an amazing one (especially the specially defensive sets)

At this point i'm not really gaining much support ._.
 
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Just to drop another check, heatran is an amazing one (especially the specially defensive sets)

At this point i'm not really gaining much support ._.

Volcarona used Hidden Power [Ground]!

It's super effective! Heatran fainted. Obviously this isn't common and Heatran is great otheriwse, but Heatran isn't a hard counter due to it losing to a certain set.
 

revelp8

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No, i just find it too easy to beat , from my experience, i've never really battled volcarona-crazy people :P

yea see, exactly the kind of argument that's unhelpful.

what makes it so easy to beat? how many times (roughly) have you even faced a volcarona? Is it predictable?

examples and proof would help in a discussion like this.

anywho

i've tried out the chesto rest set, it is undoubtedly one of the best sets to run...other than sub. As long as you keep sun up, watch out for SR and rock type moves, your guaranteed at least 2 pokemon down
 

TheBowsinator

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the argument that you can simply eliminate all it's checks with stuff like dugtrio and wobbufet is retarded. You can do that for ANY pokemon. Say you think theres a superbroken pokemon, and the only counter are steel types; people would make the argument that you would just need a magenzone.

Whats to say that dragonite isn't broken after all it's checks are removed by stuff like wobbufet and dugtrio?

the argument that you can simply eliminate all it's checks with stuff like dugtrio and wobbufet is retarded. You can do that for ANY pokemon. Say you think theres a superbroken pokemon, and the only counter are steel types; people would make the argument that you would just need a magenzone.

Whats to say that dragonite isn't broken after all it's checks are removed by stuff like wobbufet and dugtrio?

People will use this argument to say that Pikachu can sweep any team if it's checks are gone, so it must be broken.
 
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Dark Azelf

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the argument that you can simply eliminate all it's checks with stuff like dugtrio and wobbufet is retarded. You can do that for ANY pokemon. Say you think theres a superbroken pokemon, and the only counter are steel types; people would make the argument that you would just need a magenzone.

Whats to say that dragonite isn't broken after all it's checks are removed by stuff like wobbufet and dugtrio?

the argument that you can simply eliminate all it's checks with stuff like dugtrio and wobbufet is retarded. You can do that for ANY pokemon. Say you think theres a superbroken pokemon, and the only counter are steel types; people would make the argument that you would just need a magenzone.

Whats to say that dragonite isn't broken after all it's checks are removed by stuff like wobbufet and dugtrio?

People will use this argument to say that Pikachu can sweep any team if it's checks are gone, so it must be broken.

Because Dragonite has more checks than steels ? See: things like Quagsire, Shed Shell Skarm, priority etc. Volc has pretty much 4 in the sun. Big difference.
 
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Kyrk

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As mentioned above, the argument that Volcarona should be banned because the rest of your team can clear its checks is rather silly; that's no different than the also silly "if x is gone y sweeps" argument.

The counter argument to Volcarona's hazard+phazing trouble is a what-of scenario by using Wobuffett and Arena Trap Dugtrio. That not only applies what I said in the last paragraph, you're just stating reasons why Wobuffett and Dugtrio are broken...

The difference between Volcarona and Ho-oh is that not only is Volcarona weak to Stealth Rocks, but it's also weak to spikes and toxic spikes. If Volcarona switches into SR and 3 layers of spikes, that's 75% of its health gone, MUCH more significant than with Ho-oh.

To people still using "what-if" scenarios involving Rapid Spinner support...use a ghost pokemon on your team or phaze where it's impossible for them to switch into said Rapid Spinner.

More counter to Volcarona, esp. with hazard support, are priority moves and Choice Scarf users, as priority outspeeds Volcarona despite any Quiver Dance boosts, and most Choice Scarf users can outspeed Volcarona after 1 Quiver Dance. I'll use Choice Band Azumarill and Choice Scarf Terrakion as examples.

252Atk Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 272% - 320% (1020 - 1200 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Scarfed Adamant set can outspeed +1 Timid Volcarona.

252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 90% - 107% (338 - 402 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 43% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 0HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 108% - 129% (338 - 402 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet in Sun vs 0HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 54% - 65% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Will 1HKO with SR up.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet in Sun vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 45% - 54% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 14% chance to 2HKO. Has a chance of 1HKO'ing with SR and guaranteed 1HKO with SR+1 layer of spikes.

Basically in order to beat Volcarona, like any other sweeper, don't let it set up on you and you'll be fine.

While there are candidates that deserve to be Uber, Volcarona is not one of them.
 

TheBowsinator

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Because Dragonite has more checks than steels ? See: things like Quagsire, Shed Shell Skarm, priority etc. Volc has pretty much 4 in the sun. Big difference.

The thing in the first paragraph is a theorymon example, the dragonite is just a closer to home example.
 
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As mentioned above, the argument that Volcarona should be banned because the rest of your team can clear its checks is rather silly; that's no different than the also silly "if x is gone y sweeps" argument.

The counter argument to Volcarona's hazard+phazing trouble is a what-of scenario by using Wobuffett and Arena Trap Dugtrio. That not only applies what I said in the last paragraph, you're just stating reasons why Wobuffett and Dugtrio are broken...

The difference between Volcarona and Ho-oh is that not only is Volcarona weak to Stealth Rocks, but it's also weak to spikes and toxic spikes. If Volcarona switches into SR and 3 layers of spikes, that's 75% of its health gone, MUCH more significant than with Ho-oh.

To people still using "what-if" scenarios involving Rapid Spinner support...use a ghost pokemon on your team or phaze where it's impossible for them to switch into said Rapid Spinner.

More counter to Volcarona, esp. with hazard support, are priority moves and Choice Scarf users, as priority outspeeds Volcarona despite any Quiver Dance boosts, and most Choice Scarf users can outspeed Volcarona after 1 Quiver Dance. I'll use Choice Band Azumarill and Choice Scarf Terrakion as examples.

252Atk Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 272% - 320% (1020 - 1200 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Scarfed Adamant set can outspeed +1 Timid Volcarona.

252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 90% - 107% (338 - 402 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 43% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 0HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 108% - 129% (338 - 402 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet in Sun vs 0HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 54% - 65% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Will 1HKO with SR up.
252Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill (+Atk) Aqua Jet in Sun vs 252HP/0Def Volcarona (Neutral): 45% - 54% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 14% chance to 2HKO. Has a chance of 1HKO'ing with SR and guaranteed 1HKO with SR+1 layer of spikes.

Basically in order to beat Volcarona, like any other sweeper, don't let it set up on you and you'll be fine.

While there are candidates that deserve to be Uber, Volcarona is not one of them.

The game moves at a much faster pace than you're describing. Your opponent isn't going to simply let you set up every hazard and then spinblock them. Aqua Jet is the only priority that can actually dent Volcarona outside of CB Nite's Espeed and the rare Sucker Punch and the calcs in sun are nothing special, as there's a good chance that SR won't be up, and 3HKO's don't mean anything regarding to big threats like Volcarona. Also, it's hard to 'not let Volcarona set up on you'. Volcarona sets up on so many Pokemon it's ridiculous and Sun even allows it to set up on water types like Rotom-W. Easier said than done, really. Also no one runs adamant Scarf Terrakion.

Honestly, I'm on the fence as to whether it should be banned, since you can usually beat it as long as you have something like Tran/Dnite/Gyara/Scarfer but can we at least not make bad arguments lol.
 
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