Mega Salamence banned from OU

Nah · Nov 28, 2014

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Today the Smogon community announced that Mega Salamence has been banned from the OU tier, with their reasoning contained in this post:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/salamencite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3523082/

So I was thinking that maybe we could talk about it a bit or something.

Pendraflare · Nov 28, 2014

I don't think anybody didn't see it coming. Between its crazy Attack stat, great Defense and other stats all-around, along with its massive move capabilities, it wasn't going to stick around. It doesn't help that people had to resort to mostly unnecessary gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja just to have a shot at defeating it. It had to go.

Hikamaru · Nov 28, 2014

I totally called this right from the get-go. Aerilate + impressive defensive capabilities = little effort to sweep. Lots of players were very limited with teambuilding because they had to use specific Pokemon just to get past this beast, and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

In fact, I remember posting in the DCC this would be the first banning of the OR/AS competitive era and it was spot-on.

Professor_Jared · Nov 28, 2014

Not surprised by this at all, Mega Salamence is a monster whose attack, both defenses, and speed are even more beastly than Charizard X. Combine that with Intimidate, Moxie, Aerilate, Dragon Dance, Facade, and Substitute and you have a Mega that can tear through 99.9 percent of the OU metagame even better than Mega Kangaskhan.

Dedenne1 · Nov 28, 2014

It was anticipated and surely there will be others possibly mega metagross as well.

Nah · Nov 28, 2014

I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.

Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Pinkie-Dawn · Nov 28, 2014

Well now I'm feeling a bit intimidated to face one myself once I reach the Delta Episode in-game or from an online battle. At least there's still Sceptile and Altaria for those who want a Hoenn Dragon type with a Mega Evolution. I fear that Mega Sableye may also be next line after what happened with Mega Mawile.

Anti · Nov 28, 2014

Zekrom said:
I also had a feeling it was gonna get banned, from what I had heard in the main server lobby (ya know, when it's not filled with spam or ****).

I agree with the first two points made in the Smogon post; clearly Mega Mence has great stats, a good ability, and a good movepool, all of which make it a top threat. But the 3rd point I find a little....odd:

quote: The amount of teams that run obscure and niche counters/revenge killers on the ladder is impressive. People are forced to run defensive Porygon-2, HP Ice Rotom-W, defensive Zapdos and Cresselia in order to deal with the threat that Mega Salamence represents. On top of that, none of these Pokémon are exactly viable on offensive teams, meaning that said teams are either forced to run gimmicks such as Choice Scarf Greninja in order to revenge kill Mega Salamence or to completely twist their structure and sacrifice a Pokémon slot to carry a dedicated answer to it.

Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

I would try replacing the word "obscure" with "otherwise bad" and I think you'll find it to be a valid point. Whether they're OU or not, these are simply not top-tier mons. Would they be seeing usage without Mega Salamence around? (By good players. Zapdos is actually kinda bad.) HP Ice Rotom is a minor adaptation, so I'm inclined to say it's not "unhealthy." The others, though, I just wouldn't want to run, especially if I'm running an offense team. I don't want to be forced to run these mediocre Pokemon just so I can delay Mega Salamence ripping me apart, and I think that's the point. They are both bad (if only relatively so) and few in number, thereby restricting team-building. I think that's all they're trying to say.

Pendraflare · Nov 28, 2014

Zekrom said:
Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

Well the reason they're defined as such is because you rarely see them in OU (if at all), and in addition to what Anti said above me (and as I said a few posts above), you shouldn't have to use gimmicks like Choice Scarf Greninja or HP Ice Rotom-W just to defeat a Mega Evolution, which isn't helped by the fact that you'll find almost no use for it at all outside of such. Remember Garchomp in Generation IV, and Excadrill in Generation V, and how much team centralizing they required? Teams had to run a lot of counters to properly handle Garchomp or they would lose to it themselves. Think about that, and then you'll probably get where they're coming from.

J9794 · Nov 28, 2014

Wow, I only played on showdown since I couldn't get ORAS yet, but didn't know Salamence was so powerful. Probably because I mainly played doubles leading with mega aerodactyl who OHKO'd it with ice fang all the times I met one.

Polar Spectrum · Nov 28, 2014

Not too surprising, it makes sense for their style of play - fare thee well from that scene; mega Croissant. However, on its banning -

Hikamaru said:
and now with it gone it will make teams in OU diverse and not too centralized again.

I disagree, based on the contradiction to that statement this subsequently brings up-

Zekrom said:
Wait, wait, defensive Zapdos is considered an obscure poke in OU?
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/zapdos

Yeah, defensive Zapdos is so obscure that it's classified as OU and is the first set on its Smogon page.

And I know that Porygon 2 and Cresselia are classified in lower tiers, but I think that they are usable in OU. It's not like they're that terrible.

Not saying that this means that Mega Mence isn't broken/ban-worthy, it's just that I find it strange to use that 3rd point when those pokes aren't exactly "obscure".

If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

Zeffy · Nov 29, 2014

Polar Spectrum said:
If it was encouraging lesser used pokemon to suddenly be used in response to it... isn't it increasing the diversity of their OU tier? And banning it in response - is just going to continue to give reign to the same top mons prior to its debut - won't it? Just a thought.

So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Cerberus87 · Nov 29, 2014

Hahaha power creep is a funny thing... I'm from a time when Zapdos was good. :P

Polar Spectrum · Nov 29, 2014

Zeffy said:
So, you're saying that using the same Pokemon on every team just to counter an otherwise almost unstoppable threat increases diversity? Somehow, I do not follow that logic. Additionally, using those said Pokemon only lowers the user's knowledge of the entire metagame. They are so constricted in trying to focus on countering a single thing that they forget about the plethora of other threats out there. I mean, I'm not saying that Porygon2 is a terrible Pokemon, by any chance, but it is bizarre to use it on an offensive team where it would otherwise ruin momentum.

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

Erm, perhaps I phrased my question poorly. What I'm saying is - the problem was allegedly Salamence dominating the tier. So in response; their community started using different, new, or lesser seen things than were typical for that tier, to handle it. So in response to that, they ban Salamence so people can go... back? To using different things? Than they... already were? It just seems like an odd reasoning, wether it's right or not - to state that you're adding to the list of things you're not allowing people to use, which made people use different things - so they can in turn use different things.

lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

The Masked One · Nov 29, 2014

I was expecting this. I'm glad I wanted to use Flygon on my competitive team in the first place, because I knew if Salamence got a mega it'd be banned the first chance Smogon got. ~~I wonder if Mega Altaria will bite the dust next~~

KorpiklaaniVodka · Nov 29, 2014

Honestly I never had much trouble with MegaMence, possibly because of me running Sylveon + Weavile + CB Talon to break offense, but I agree with the quickban. It was too restrictive to teambuilding, could set up on almost anything or lure a would-be physical check and deal massive damage with Draco Meteor or Fire Blast.

Zeffy · Nov 29, 2014

Polar Spectrum said:
lol I'm still not phrasing this very well. I'll just roll with "Hah - Smogon's OU tier saw a small shift in its 'diverse' roster of pokemon that see usage in it briefly. But it looks like they're eliminating another new thing to preserve its... already 'diverse' pool of pokemon that see usage in it."

have you read this part of my post?

I also would like to point out that diversity is inherent in any Pokemon tier. The reason why it is not so noticeable because there is only a limited amount of roles that a Pokemon can perform. This is seen in nature itself--two organisms with the similar niche will be locked in state of competition until one side, or both, becomes extinct.

In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Polar Spectrum · Nov 29, 2014

Zeffy said:
have you read this part of my post?

In any case, a person who aims to have fun AND win would prefer to use the best Pokemon for a certain role. The definition of what is the "best" Pokemon differs in each person's case, though, which is why teambuilding skill is the most important skill a battler should have. Really, I would implore you to explore more of Smogon's battling repertoire. It seems that your conclusions are based on a quick whim.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic. It's not like there are much to discuss regarding this quick ban, though.

Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

#DickBats · Nov 29, 2014

Mega salamence got smogon'd. Damn, didn't even got to use M-salamence. Dragonite is still better imo. Dragon claw the first turn, survives with multiscale, finish with extreme speed. Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Nah · Nov 29, 2014

Polar Spectrum said:
Oh no no, I absolutely read that, and I agree - what I was saying, and I think is relevant to the thread since it was my commenting on their banning of Mega Croissant within their community's rules; was that their (one) reasoning being "to encourage diversity" seemed a bit silly, based off of - like my previous post said, creating one variety of diversity in opening new niches for things that didn't get use prior; to succeed in. I agree with you on why it got banned, the first thing I said in this thread was "Not surprising, it makes sense for their style of play". But c'mon Smogon hahah. Be real tho

I think it's that basically Zapdos/Cress/Pory2/HP Ice Rotom-W are the only good counters in OU (according to Smogon), and that everyone and their mom was using Mega Salamence, you were forced to prepare for it by using one or more of those pokes, and so most teams would probably be using them, meaning less diversity. Think of it like Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin/Defog (which no one ever wants to do anything about grumblgrumble)

ChrisJavier said:
Besides, any special atacker with ice beam kills M-Salamence.

Ya know, if it doesn't kill them first.

Mega Salamence banned from OU

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