The PokéCommunity Forums  

Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates
Sign Up Rules/FAQ Live Battle Blogs Mark Forums Read

Notices

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more in-depth topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.


Advertise here

Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old July 31st, 2013, 01:34 PM
Silais's Avatar
Silais
Princess of the Law
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Quiet

Advertise here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-PV4lozgP8

Please watch the video above if you are interested!

What do you think of the Bradley Manning verdict? Do you believe it is a tragedy, or a great justice? Discuss below.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2    
Old August 4th, 2013, 03:32 AM
FreakyLocz14's Avatar
FreakyLocz14
Conservative Patriot
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Gender: Female
Nature: Bold
It's sad that he will still serve a lengthly prison term, but this ruling will set a promising precedent on what constitutes treason, and whistleblowing isn't it.
Reply With Quote
  #3    
Old August 4th, 2013, 06:30 AM
Limerent's Avatar
Limerent
I can hear you.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
A tragedy? Great justice? No, it's neither. It's just what is supposed to happen. As a member of the armed forces he swore an oath to defend his country and not to release classified material. He broke that oath and did so, fully aware of the consequences, which are you get court martialed and sent to prison for a very long time. The reason for that is to punish those who choose to aid hostile foreign powers or terrorist groups. Pvt. Manning clearly didn't have that intention but he still completed the action, which has the same result.

You could do vigilante justice and murder a man who slaughtered your entire family but got let off on a technicality, you might see it as a moral thing to do, but the law is the law, you're still going to prison for it. Same here. Manning broke the rules, his sentence is just. Although I think that the military officers who ignored his attempts to resolve the situation in house are also at fault, and should be thoroughly investigated and charged if possible. Bradley Manning will die in prison for what he believed in, very courageous and all but it was his choice, to do a morally right thing in an illegal way, this is what happens.

I'm not American so I don't care too much, for me it's more worrying when you try to extradite non government employees or even non citizens like Julian Assange. Whether whistleblowing of wrongs constitutes treason is doubtful as FreakyLocz said, maybe it's a good thing he didn't get charged on 'Aiding the Enemy'. Ugh, i'm too tired for this, you can tear me apart piece by piece like a pack of wolves tomorrow.
__________________
Hi.
Reply With Quote
  #4    
Old August 4th, 2013, 02:02 PM
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger
An Enigmagma
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: TEEAH-XUUUHHS!
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
The video is not very analytically or objective by any means. It fails to take into account both the precedent that would have been set by unilateral decisions by leakers who have no representational authority to do so as well as the negative affects of stirring domestic and foreign unrest for taking classified information.

Here's a brief summary from good ol' wikipedia that helps demonstrate the psychological issues that this man was facing. Further lends itself as to why those without authority should not be able to make unilateral decisions. This man was erratic and tormented by psychological illness. We cannot allow anyone, especially those with such cognitive ailments, exhibiting both an identity crisis as well as violent behavior, to make decisions that affect both the nation and the international community.
Spoiler:
Manning told Lamo he passed the Baghdad helicopter attack ("Collateral murder") video to WikiLeaks shortly after this incident, in February 2010. In April, just as WikiLeaks published the video, Manning sent an e-mail to his master sergeant, Paul Adkins, saying he was suffering from gender dysphoria and attaching a photograph of himself dressed as a woman. Captain Steven Lim, Manning's commander, said he first saw the e-mail after Manning's arrest – when information about hormone replacement therapy was found in his room in Baghdad – and learned that Manning had been calling himself Breanna.[31] Manning told Lamo that his commander had found out about the gender issue before his arrest, after looking at his medical files at the beginning of May. He said he had set up Twitter and YouTube accounts in Breanna's name to give her a digital presence, writing in the Lamo chat: "i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as [a] boy ... the CPU is not made for this motherboard ..."[32]
On April 30, he posted on Facebook that he was utterly lost, and over the next few days that "Bradley Manning is not a piece of equipment," that he was "beyond frustrated," and "livid" after being "lectured by ex-boyfriend despite months of relationship ambiguity ..." On May 7, he seemed to spiral out of control. According to army witnesses, he was found curled into a fetal position in a storage cupboard, with a knife at his feet, and had cut the words "I want" into a vinyl chair. A few hours later he had an altercation with a female intelligence analyst, Specialist Jihrleah Showman, during which he punched her in the face. The brigade psychiatrist recommended a discharge, referring to an "occupational problem and adjustment disorder." His master sergeant removed the bolt from his weapon, and he was sent to work in the supply office, though at this point his security clearance remained in place. He was demoted from Specialist to Private First Class just three days before his arrest on May 27.[33]
Ellen Nakashima writes that, on May 9, Manning contacted Jonathan Odell, a gay American novelist in Minneapolis, via Facebook, leaving a message that he wanted to speak to him in confidence; he said he had been involved in some "very high-profile events, albeit as a nameless individual thus far." On May 19, according to army investigators, he e-mailed Eric Schmiedl, a mathematician he had met in Boston, and told him he had been the source of the "Collateral Murder" video. Two days later, he began the series of chats with Adrian Lamo that led to his arrest.



Further, every military has produced collateral damage. It's an unavoidable product of war. By stirring up instances of collateral damage for the public and the world to see it invigorates terrorist activity and creates tension with allied nations, in which enables for a more peaceful international presence. This type of material is used as the platform for terrorist enlistment into regions outside of Afghanistan/Iraq, into areas like Libya, Tunisa, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, just to name a few that are ravaged by political unrest aggravated by the presence of terrorist organizations. He went to his commander to make a complaint, though he never exercised the option of going to a Congressional Oversight Committee. Releasing information to the public as well as terrorist organizations is a reckless remedy to the issue at hand. He clearly was not in the right state of mind to have made a decision that weighed the costs and benefits to his decision.

So, not only were his actions not thought out with a clear mind and illegal by U.S. statutes, his actions were also detrimental to US Foreign Policy as well as International Foreign Policy abroad in respect to the Middle East, given the spread of terrorism into other regions of which most likely wouldn't have accessed information so readily without the leaks. This mobilization of information has been a catalyst for the Arab Spring, which has created a radical and violent approach to reform, that has caused more chaos than actual positive reforms that they were seeking, and has aggravated the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict, as well as the Palestinian domestic conflict between the Fatah and Hamas. Let me address the Arab Spring as well. Many have lauded the Arab Spring as a sign that democracy will arise in the Middle East, when in actuality Islamists have been domineering in the election over Secularists. Again, it's nothing against Islam, I would be opposed to Christianists enforcing laws in the US, Secularism in sovereign nations improves both domestic issues as well as domestic ones - we have all observed the only official Theocracy, Iran, and the negative impact upon the global climate. Secondly, the Arab Spring, if initiated by the observances of the Wiki-leaks, is extremely concerning given the negative sentiments that the citizens have against he United States and its allies. This is what is most threatening to international peace as it relates to the Arab Spring.

For these reasons, this man should be behind bars for reasons other than his actions merely being illegal as it relates to US statutes. The simple one-dimensional approach of the pundit should be discredited on several accounts.
__________________


Avatar by Myself & Signature by Suikuzu
Reply With Quote
  #5    
Old August 5th, 2013, 04:14 AM
Limerent's Avatar
Limerent
I can hear you.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
The video is not very analytically or objective by any means. It fails to take into account both the precedent that would have been set by unilateral decisions by leakers who have no representational authority to do so as well as the negative affects of stirring domestic and foreign unrest for taking classified information.

Here's a brief summary from good ol' wikipedia that helps demonstrate the psychological issues that this man was facing. Further lends itself as to why those without authority should not be able to make unilateral decisions. This man was erratic and tormented by psychological illness. We cannot allow anyone, especially those with such cognitive ailments, exhibiting both an identity crisis as well as violent behavior, to make decisions that affect both the nation and the international community.
Spoiler:
Manning told Lamo he passed the Baghdad helicopter attack ("Collateral murder") video to WikiLeaks shortly after this incident, in February 2010. In April, just as WikiLeaks published the video, Manning sent an e-mail to his master sergeant, Paul Adkins, saying he was suffering from gender dysphoria and attaching a photograph of himself dressed as a woman. Captain Steven Lim, Manning's commander, said he first saw the e-mail after Manning's arrest – when information about hormone replacement therapy was found in his room in Baghdad – and learned that Manning had been calling himself Breanna.[31] Manning told Lamo that his commander had found out about the gender issue before his arrest, after looking at his medical files at the beginning of May. He said he had set up Twitter and YouTube accounts in Breanna's name to give her a digital presence, writing in the Lamo chat: "i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as [a] boy ... the CPU is not made for this motherboard ..."[32]
On April 30, he posted on Facebook that he was utterly lost, and over the next few days that "Bradley Manning is not a piece of equipment," that he was "beyond frustrated," and "livid" after being "lectured by ex-boyfriend despite months of relationship ambiguity ..." On May 7, he seemed to spiral out of control. According to army witnesses, he was found curled into a fetal position in a storage cupboard, with a knife at his feet, and had cut the words "I want" into a vinyl chair. A few hours later he had an altercation with a female intelligence analyst, Specialist Jihrleah Showman, during which he punched her in the face. The brigade psychiatrist recommended a discharge, referring to an "occupational problem and adjustment disorder." His master sergeant removed the bolt from his weapon, and he was sent to work in the supply office, though at this point his security clearance remained in place. He was demoted from Specialist to Private First Class just three days before his arrest on May 27.[33]
Ellen Nakashima writes that, on May 9, Manning contacted Jonathan Odell, a gay American novelist in Minneapolis, via Facebook, leaving a message that he wanted to speak to him in confidence; he said he had been involved in some "very high-profile events, albeit as a nameless individual thus far." On May 19, according to army investigators, he e-mailed Eric Schmiedl, a mathematician he had met in Boston, and told him he had been the source of the "Collateral Murder" video. Two days later, he began the series of chats with Adrian Lamo that led to his arrest.



Further, every military has produced collateral damage. It's an unavoidable product of war. By stirring up instances of collateral damage for the public and the world to see it invigorates terrorist activity and creates tension with allied nations, in which enables for a more peaceful international presence. This type of material is used as the platform for terrorist enlistment into regions outside of Afghanistan/Iraq, into areas like Libya, Tunisa, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, just to name a few that are ravaged by political unrest aggravated by the presence of terrorist organizations. He went to his commander to make a complaint, though he never exercised the option of going to a Congressional Oversight Committee. Releasing information to the public as well as terrorist organizations is a reckless remedy to the issue at hand. He clearly was not in the right state of mind to have made a decision that weighed the costs and benefits to his decision.

So, not only were his actions not thought out with a clear mind and illegal by U.S. statutes, his actions were also detrimental to US Foreign Policy as well as International Foreign Policy abroad in respect to the Middle East, given the spread of terrorism into other regions of which most likely wouldn't have accessed information so readily without the leaks. This mobilization of information has been a catalyst for the Arab Spring, which has created a radical and violent approach to reform, that has caused more chaos than actual positive reforms that they were seeking, and has aggravated the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict, as well as the Palestinian domestic conflict between the Fatah and Hamas. Let me address the Arab Spring as well. Many have lauded the Arab Spring as a sign that democracy will arise in the Middle East, when in actuality Islamists have been domineering in the election over Secularists. Again, it's nothing against Islam, I would be opposed to Christianists enforcing laws in the US, Secularism in sovereign nations improves both domestic issues as well as domestic ones - we have all observed the only official Theocracy, Iran, and the negative impact upon the global climate. Secondly, the Arab Spring, if initiated by the observances of the Wiki-leaks, is extremely concerning given the negative sentiments that the citizens have against he United States and its allies. This is what is most threatening to international peace as it relates to the Arab Spring.

For these reasons, this man should be behind bars for reasons other than his actions merely being illegal as it relates to US statutes. The simple one-dimensional approach of the pundit should be discredited on several accounts.
Exactly. I mostly spoke about the legality of leaking information but you focused on the effects of this individual case, yes collateral damage does happen but leaking it illegaly stirs up tensions. Anyway that video was a little silly, that guy yelling and thumping his fist doesn't make his opinion any more valid. He was extremely biased as well.
__________________
Hi.
Reply With Quote
  #6    
Old August 5th, 2013, 08:03 AM
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
For whatever reason, I empathize more with Manning than I do Snowden. Whistle-blowers don't retreat overseas to hide in hostile nations who would have something to gain from revealed classified intelligence, in Snowden's case.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7    
Old August 5th, 2013, 08:23 AM
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger
An Enigmagma
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: TEEAH-XUUUHHS!
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
For whatever reason, I empathize more with Manning than I do Snowden. Whistle-blowers don't retreat overseas to hide in hostile nations who would have something to gain from revealed classified intelligence, in Snowden's case.
This is a good point. Snowden appears to be more level-headed and calculated with his actions as well. Manning should not have had access to all that information given his history of psychological instability and interpersonal conflicts with his subordinates. Those in command should bear some of the responsibility for allowing him such clearance. He clearly was acting out, not for personal gain, but in some sort of behavioral frustration. That could be a factor in sentencing. Perhaps his mental ailments are sufficient mitigating factors to have him lodged in a mental facility in order to treat him, confine him for the number of years he would have otherwise spent in prison, and still keep a precedent that affirms strict punishment for the leaking of classified information and violation of Federal Laws.
__________________


Avatar by Myself & Signature by Suikuzu
Reply With Quote
  #8    
Old August 26th, 2013, 08:13 AM
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Going by that ^

Let's also remember that Manning exposed some war crimes committed by U.S. soldiers in Iraq, If I recall correctly. Whereas Snowden "leaked" details about a decade-old spying program that we actually already knew about. Manning didn't bolt to Russia, either.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links


Advertise here
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 09:11 PM.


Style by Nymphadora, artwork by Sa-Dui.
Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.