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Mod Applications

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Chikara

ʕ´•ᴥ•`ʔ
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I would only think it would be a good idea if the applications were presented to a few pre determined users that the staff think might be suitable for the job. Especially if the problem is that they want to get to know the candidates better first. That's probably the only way I would be in support of a promotion process like that. My problem with applications is that there's some people who will say whatever it takes to achieve a rank of authority, like others have already mentioned.

(That's mostly coming from my own experience dealing with promotions, don't think it would count for much here)
 
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Alex

what will it be next?
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I think mod applications would actually be a fantastic way of going out new hires for PC, or any online forum as booming as this one. If I was in charge of writing the form to-be filled out, it'd go a little something like this...

What forum(s) do you want to moderate?

What about listed forum(s) do you like?

What do you believe is the number one rule infringed upon in listed forum(s) and how do you plan on changing that?

What do you believe can be done to improve listed forum(s) and how do you plan on doing so?

What makes you the proper candidate for this position?

Are you interested in becoming a Super Moderator or Administrator in the future?

Mostly my questions aim to ensure the ones hiring that this aspiring moderator has a real passion for the forum(s) they'd like to moderate (ie. they won't just quit posting there 2 months into the job), has a real sense of what works properly in that forum and what doesn't, and if they have some fresh ideas to bring change and liveliness to the forum. This application would probably require the one hiring to do a bit of snooping into the applicant's activity and post history.
 
1,277
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I really don't like the idea of mod applications for four reasons:

1.The whole idea seems a bit "formal", when PC is meant to be a fun place where people can relax, have fun and escape the real world, why bring corporate style applications into the mix.

2. Some people might start "brown nosing" current mods to try and get into their good books if they think it helps them become a mod and assist their application, as well as bringing petty politics into play on the forums.

3. I like the way mods are chosen now (I don't know how they are exactly), it seems more natural that members who are reliable, well respected and knowledgeable about their area of modding are chosen by current mods rather than having an application frenzy.

4. Not all applicants will be picked, and this could disappoint members.
 

£

You're gonna have a bad time.
947
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Disclaimer: This thread does not indicate that we are going to introduce, or are considering introducing, mod applications.

Thought this'd be interesting. What do you guys think of mod applications - in both a general and PC specific context? If you were writing a mod application form, what sort of questions would you ask in it? Similarly, what sort of responses would you look for to these questions and why? How would you identify the best candidates following the initial applications? Anything else relevant?

it's like you enjoy the moderator hype

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

that said please do make the applications public if this happens. comedy is an art form best shared.
 

Lunarose

replaced by lies
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I don't believe mod applications are the best way to measure if someone can be a qualified mod. I feel like you have to display certain qualities and it's best to be hand picked in this kind of job, there are people who are genuinely good watchers and engaging in the community so you can very clearly see who might possibly be good candidates. After you take a look around, it's best to message those people and ask them if they're interested or ask them a few questions about how they could contribute to the team and things like that.
I've been a part of a forum, part of the mod team where we had mod applications, but I didn't think it was the best way to able to properly gauge how well they could do. Some people would apply and offer the most fantastic application, obviously speaking highly of themselves, and when they got to the actual job they kind of just were really excited for it for a few weeks but eventually became completely useless. I've seen some come and go way too many times, the ones who were handpicked were among some of the most respectable and dependable and always surpassing those mods who applied. Just my experience with it, I know every forum is different but it's kind of similar if you're a mod on any forum, you perform similar duties and meet similar goals after all. I lurk around PC sometimes but from what I've seen I think mods get handpicked right? I see them interacting with the community a lot, I feel like being a mod of such a huge forum takes way more than just an application that people might just completely BS.
Another option, if you do see possible candidates, you could give them like a private mod application. I don't know if you admins would want to spend hours reading through likely hundreds of applications :P
But yeah, public applications are best suited for smaller scale forums.
 

Mr Cat Dog

Frasier says it best
11,344
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This is going to be a little long and inside baseball-y. I've had some cocktails. Here's a tl;dr:

Spoiler: tl;dr
I don't see the point in mod applications: they would only lengthen the process; the information that you would get out of potential candidates could have any veracity of truth (or un-truth) to it; and, 90% of the time, it's very obvious who should be a mod for a particular section, removing the need for the applications in the first place. For higher staff promotions, however, I could see a real benefit to applications: they could help de-mystify an already archaic and unclear process of promoting people; they have the potential to obviate the general sense of skullduggery that occurs when 'hiring season' is in effect and put people on a level playing field; they allow candidates to showcase and - if the criteria for promotion were made available to mods - develop qualities that they'd need if and when they were promoted; and it could shorten the whole process. Questions I'd ask in such an application are detailed below.

Wow, and that was already pretty long. Get ready for a wild ride, folks!

As some people know and - many - others don't, I was a moderator and super moderator at multiple times in PC's history. (I've also not been around these parts for much longer than I've actually been a part of this place, so definitely take what I'm saying with the biggest pinch of salt you can find!) Because of this, I've been through the mill multiple times at multiple times and there are things about the promotion process that work and other things that, quite frankly, don't. I won't go into those things any more than necessary, except when I forget and go off on a tangent, like this one here!

One of the best things about being a super moderator was being part of the decision process for appointing moderators. If a section was suddenly having a burst of prolonged activity, or a previous moderator had resigned/been fired, or if there's some other bespoke reason, that would normally kick the process off. As I mention above, for the most part, the whole thing normally takes a very short amount of time; sometimes hours, sometimes a few days, rarely longer. Often there'll be people on the radar of higher staff (HS) for various reasons of quality. If not, HS trawl the section in question looking for quality posters, and it's normally very clear who should be the new moderator of a given section. That person will generally have very good communication skills, a high degree of knowledge about the section in question, a generally upbeat and mature attitude, and a relatively good level of activity. Normally there's only one or two people who fulfil all four criteria at the right time, and if there aren't, after a few days of a lack of moderation in a particular section, someone will normally come out of the woodwork and start displaying these hitherto undisplayed attributes. Gold warehouse/Vendak is kinda right in his much pithier assessment mentioned above.

A HS member will bring a candidate/candidates to the attention of the rest of HS and there'll be a HS vote. Sometimes it's a rubber stamp exercise, sometimes there's a discussion about the relative merits of each candidate (Will he or she 'fit' with the wider team? Do people have prior knowledge of the candidate's history (e.g. infractions, length of time on PC)? Is this person only behaving this way to become a mod? etc.) but at some point there'll be a selection, and then happy times and a thread in Celebrations and an update to the Small Updates & Changes thread and yadda yadda yadda.

Applications for advertised positions would just make everything much more complicated than it needs to be. For one, in order to make the process as fair and transparent as possible, there'd need to be a fair amount of time between posting the advertisement and receiving applications (especially if you wanted answers that had a modicum of value to them). There'd then need to be some time set aside to looking through the applications, as there'd undoubtedly be many more than is necessary for the position. Once the applications had been read, there'd need to be a whittling down process to a final two/three/insert manageable number here. And only THEN could you go on to the current process described above of actually deciding which person to actually promote. Rather than having a promotion take three hours (as I can definitely remember one doing), each one would end up taking over a week, and possibly closer to two! In addition, the axiom 'actions speak louder than words' wonderfully sums up the approach to promotions of members and moderators. If people were to ask me 'how do i become a mod???????????', the first piece of advice I'd give would simply be 'act like one'. I don't mean going around pretending to ban people or close threads, but by posting intelligently and frequently, coming up with ideas to elevate the section in question, reporting bad posts etc. Having previous evidence of moderator-like behaviour can only put candidates in good stead. Simply saying what he or she would do upon promotion adds a much more uncertain element to the whole thing. As people have mentioned above, there's plenty of scope for people to exaggerate their achievements or just say things about themselves that aren't true but may help them get ahead in the process. Without the benefit of previous posts/actions, there's potential for some real bad eggs to fall through the cracks and become staff. (Of course, I'm assuming that HS would be able to spot the bullshitters a mile away, but it would just go back to the added time element above of making everything so fucking convoluted.) So, yeah. Those are my incredibly long and rambly reasons as to why I would not be in favour of moderator applications on PC.

(1,000 words down. Let's go on to higher staff!)

One of the most rewarding and deeply frustrating things about being a super moderator was being part of the decision process for appointing other super moderators. Rewarding because there's the sense of joy of bringing people into the inner sanctum of PC; frustrating because the inner sanctum of PC is so fucking political it hurts. Unlike the promotion of members to moderators, there's no real rhyme or reason as to why moderator promotions happen the way they do - either the frequency of, or the types of people involved in, such promotions. Sometimes they can be caused by resignations, other times not; it really varies. Much like member promotions, it essentially comes down to a HS vote. Unlike member promotions, there are always many candidates on the table and the process can take weeks, depending on how political people are feeling!

I sometimes like to think of PC as a company. Members are employees/shareholders. Moderators are supervisors of particular sections and people and responsible for keeping their section in order. Higher staff members are akin to a company's board of directors: general oversight of the entire organisation, 'big picture'-thinking about strategy and maintenance and ultimately responsible to the members whose interests they're working in. The analogy only stretches so far, but it's a useful one to show that a higher staff member isn't simply a 'very good moderator'; the role and its function is very different and, apart from the 'general oversight' description i.e. looking after mod-less forums, there isn't a lot of overlap between the things that moderators need to think about and the concerns of higher staff. Although a number of very good moderators have become very good higher staff, the jump up isn't always as successful as one may think it is, and there have been mods who have really come into their own as HS rather than as simply moderators.

There are a number of reasons as to why the staff make-up is the way it is, most of them boring and historical (and some of them sexy, but not many). If I'm remembering correctly, there've been as many as 16 and as few as 9/10 HS members in total, and various degrees of seniority and importance. (Does anyone remember the 'Praetor' quasi-admin level? And Kairi? Those were the days!) Contrary to popular belief, there's not really one ideal type of higher staff member. Going back to the company analogy, it's important for the HS to be as unified as possible in public, whilst still being open for debate and discussion when making internal decisions. That's why there's not really one 'type' of higher staff member. If there was a perfect higher staff member, there'd be no need for any more than one (and certainly not 13!) as everyone would vote the same and think the same and act the same about decisions. Maybe there'd be enough for different timezones to ban spambots and the like, but that'd be it. What's important is an ability to work with others with strong opinions, whilst still putting forward your own point of view as to why you think things should be the way they are or should be. Negotiation skills, assertiveness, the ability to compromise, very keen judgment: these are all essential qualities of HS members. However, they don't result in a particular 'type' of moderator that fits that, especially since moderators aren't generally called upon to utilise these skills in their line of work policing and improving their own bespoke sections. In addition, and importantly to the matter of moderator promotions, different people have different perceptions as to what other qualities a HS member should have. When I was looking at suitable candidates, a modicum of forum-wide activity was an important consideration for me; other HS members didn't give that as much thought. Similarly, other people put a lot of emphasis on candidates' prior initiative, whereas for me, I wasn't as concerned about it. Hopefully you can get a sense as to why these things take forever, with so many more variables and so many more candidates to choose from!

I'm aware that this is getting too tl;dr even for a tl;dr, so I'll try and make the rest of this short and sweet. Because of all the claptrap I've just written about, I think that super moderator applications could be a real benefit to the process. As mentioned up-top, the whole promotion thing is shrouded in mystery: no one exactly knows what they're looking for, the moderators don't entirely know how they're supposed to act or what qualities to show around the forum. If there were criteria available or an application form detailing the inherent qualities to a successful super mod, I think there'd be a lot more transparency and people actually demonstrating those good qualities. In addition, where there's politics there are rumours. Sayre's law holds that "academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low." I'd counter that PC politics are even more vicious and bitter because the stakes are even lower! If there are rumours that there'll be new HS (either because of a resignation or just through the grapevine), oh my fucking god do things get intense. People are normally professional enough not to bitch about things on the forum, but instant messaging platforms can become minefields! Application forms enable things to be relatively open-ish and much less cloak-and-dagger, hopefully alleviating the mood of the moderating team and not causing unnecessary anxiety about the process. Finally, provided that the questions were solid, applications could reduce the process for appointments by letting candidates bring their own experiences as a moderator (and in life, to a certain extent) to the table for other HS members to see and judge accordingly. Rather than having HS debate the merits of preferred candidates' experiences, candidates can simply point to events they've hosted or ideas they've brought up to improve the forum as concrete examples of how they'd act upon promotion (again, going back to the adage 'act like a super moderator to become a super moderator'), speeding the process up significantly.

Aaaaaaand I've passed 2,000 words. Go me! I presume if you've read this far, you'll want to know what questions I'd ask in a hyptothetical application form, and I don't want to disappoint my five readers! Going back to everything I've said so far, I'd make the questions as practical and/or as previous experience-focused as possible. Given that the candidates are mods already, criteria such as communication skills are a given. What I'd be looking for evidence of include suggestions to improve either their own section or the forum at large, a good sense of judgment, and their ability to react to the types of stuff that a super mod would encounter. So, without further ado:

Spoiler: Super Moderator Application Form

  • Who would you choose to replace you in your current section(s) and why? If you do not think there is a suitable candidate, please explain what qualities such a person would need to exhibit in order to be considered.
  • A member has messaged you privately about a feud between himself and a moderator. Upon further examination of the facts, both parties have acted untoward each other, although there is no clear person 'at fault'. How would you deal with resolving the issue with both parties?
  • What considerations would you give to a member wishing to be un-permabanned?
  • Please give a suggestion which you think could help improve the running/maintenance of (i) your current section(s), and (ii) the PokeCommunity as a whole.
  • Please give two examples of times where you have shown initiative in promoting and/or improving your current section(s) and how successful these initiatives were.
  • What can you, as an individual, bring to the position of super moderator that is unique to you?
  • What do you think are the three most important qualities in a super moderator?
  • What are your main interests outside of the PokeCommunity? (I liked this a lot when reading Erica's response to this question. Well rounded people make for good HS members!)

(You can tell I've been through a lot of interviews recently! And been through a lot of whiskey!)

I think that's it. It's possible I've given this too much thought. I'm quite drunk now so apologies if none of this makes sense. I'm going to go and drink a lot of water. Bye Felicia. (Young people are saying that, right?)
 
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Nah

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-lots of words-

I think that's it. It's possible I've given this too much thought. I'm quite drunk now so apologies if none of this makes sense. I'm going to go and drink a lot of water. Bye Felicia. (Young people are saying that, right?)
Are you sure you're drunk? Because that looked pretty coherent to me.
 

Kyoe

working on it
265
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Personally I think that Mod Applications would only be useful to help filter the candidates for Moderatorship. The form would have to be based on the activity, dedication, knowledge, contribution, personality, and perspectives of the person filling it out.

Being a Mod isn't some cool superpower, it's a job and a responsibility. Almost like gardening. You have to tend to your garden (forum), weed out the unwanted plants (spam, flaming, et al), and find new ways to make your garden grow and flourish. As such, a Mod needs to be someone who's willing to care for the 'garden', and accept that the main and perhaps only thing you'll get from it is the satisfaction of hard work, and a pretty place to relax. If a Mod Application helps to find those people, then it's a good idea. If not, it's a waste of time and effort.

tbh, mods do get to have cool forum powers, though...
 
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Are you sure you're drunk? Because that looked pretty coherent to me.
The catdog's coherence is proportional to his alcohol blood content :3 as opposed to inversely so for most of us.
 

Klippy

L E G E N D of
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I think if you're going to apply to be a mod, you need to have the history and level of experience already shown on the forums, much like you would go into a job interview with a resume. You don't show up to an interview with nothing on your resume, so if you were to apply for a position on PC, you'd want to showcase what you've contributed to the forums, whether it be ideas, reporting issues, generating activity, or general good traits. If you really want to be a mod and apply, you've gotta prove it. It may not be a huge deal in the scheme of life, but it's still a neat experience that helps you develop life skills (debating with others, getting along with different people, learning to manage your section and improve your decision-making skills).
 

Ivysaur

Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
21,082
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Are you sure you're drunk? Because that looked pretty coherent to me.

When Jon gets drunk, it's not that he loses the ability to make coherent speeches- instead, his ability to flood you with words gets increased thousandfold.
 

Sonata

Don't let me disappear
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I don't want to write too much because I've already posted my idea, but I would say if we weren't going to use mod applications and instead go by popular vote I think we would narrow down the list of possible voters first to people who have been here at least 2 or 3 years at least and have at least 1000 posts or are at least active pretty frequently since there are people who don't post as much in threads but are around and message people a lot. But 1000 posts isn't too much for someone who's been here for around 3 years if they have been active and if they haven't been active then they probably wouldn't know what the applicants are like anyways. If you're moderately active over the course of 2 or 3 years you probably have seen at least one person get promoted and maybe a person or two demoted so you would most likely know what that person is like and have a better feel over others for what would be necessary for someone to be a good functioning mod. And of course the best option is to go to people who have had problems with a user who's been nominated to be voted on and see what they really think about them and how they'd feel if so and so were to become a mod, it would be biased I'm sure but it would let you see how people other than the people that just love the user feel about them. And if you find a user has nobody that doesn't like them then that's probably your prime target and you've probably already got your votes on them and they're on their way.

Idk if any of wrote I wrote makes sense or if it's an incoherent mess. I've been awake too long again.
 
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Picking mods from popularity contests? That sounds like the perfect way to ruin this site ;)
 

Mr Cat Dog

Frasier says it best
11,344
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Are you sure you're drunk? Because that looked pretty coherent to me.
Erm...
The catdog's coherence is proportional to his alcohol blood content :3 as opposed to inversely so for most of us.

When Jon gets drunk, it's not that he loses the ability to make coherent speeches- instead, his ability to flood you with words gets increased thousandfold.
What these guys said. I like to think of myself as EAF when under the influence (that is, 'eloquent as fuck'). To a point, though. A tipping point, if you will, for when things go horribly wrong, as Alinthea/Kura can attest to.

But, in all seriousness, re-reading it with a fresh set of eyes alerted me to the myriad of mistakes that I made yesterday evening that I need to remedy poste-haste.
 

Nihilego

[color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
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I can attest to the wordiness of drunken Jon. I have many PMs as evidence.

also sweet jesus why is that tl;dr a paragraph in its own right
 

Lunarose

replaced by lies
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I don't want to write too much because I've already posted my idea, but I would say if we weren't going to use mod applications and instead go by popular vote I think we would narrow down the list of possible voters first to people who have been here at least 2 or 3 years at least and have at least 1000 posts or are at least active pretty frequently since there are people who don't post as much in threads but are around and message people a lot. But 1000 posts isn't too much for someone who's been here for around 3 years if they have been active and if they haven't been active then they probably wouldn't know what the applicants are like anyways. If you're moderately active over the course of 2 or 3 years you probably have seen at least one person get promoted and maybe a person or two demoted so you would most likely know what that person is like and have a better feel over others for what would be necessary for someone to be a good functioning mod. And of course the best option is to go to people who have had problems with a user who's been nominated to be voted on and see what they really think about them and how they'd feel if so and so were to become a mod, it would be biased I'm sure but it would let you see how people other than the people that just love the user feel about them. And if you find a user has nobody that doesn't like them then that's probably your prime target and you've probably already got your votes on them and they're on their way.

Idk if any of wrote I wrote makes sense or if it's an incoherent mess. I've been awake too long again.

I disagree with that in the sense that you shouldn't just pick people based on their quantity counts- eg: post count and years they've been active or how much they've been posting in a particular area. Sure, they might be active but you have to take into consideration how their behavior is, what positive contributions they've made to the site, site history etc. and any other factors that PC staff usually looks at. Someone could post a bunch in a particular section on the forum but not offer any kind of quality or helpfulness and all they'd really be getting is attention. Somebody could have joined a year ago and probably made staff, idk though I'd have to check all the join dates lool. Voting wouldn't be a good idea either, wouldn't that just make it a popularity contest? Honestly the choice should ultimately be left to the more experienced staff/admins who've been around as they'd always know best what to look for.
 

Sonata

Don't let me disappear
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I disagree with that in the sense that you shouldn't just pick people based on their quantity counts- eg: post count and years they've been active or how much they've been posting in a particular area. Sure, they might be active but you have to take into consideration how their behavior is, what positive contributions they've made to the site, site history etc. and any other factors that PC staff usually looks at. Someone could post a bunch in a particular section on the forum but not offer any kind of quality or helpfulness and all they'd really be getting is attention. Somebody could have joined a year ago and probably made staff, idk though I'd have to check all the join dates lool. Voting wouldn't be a good idea either, wouldn't that just make it a popularity contest? Honestly the choice should ultimately be left to the more experienced staff/admins who've been around as they'd always know best what to look for.

I think what I wrote has been misinterpreted. It was really only for the sake of replying to people who have said that it is or should be a popularity contest whether joking or not. I wasn't suggesting we base mods off of their post count or how long they've been here. I was saying that IF we were to theoretically get rid of a mod application and instead do it based by popular vote, then there should be two rounds. The first round would be PC voting for people they think would do a good job as a mod, then the nominees would accept if they wanted to be a mod or not and then we would do a second round of voting that would include only current staff and people who have been around long enough to have a good sense of what the people are like and what a mod should and shouldn't be. I don't like the idea of it being a popularity contest. And if you read my initial post you would understand that and have realized that this was just a completely unrelated post to stay in the conversation and not just be a one trick pony. Though it doesn't really matter because this is all hypothetical. But thank you for your feedback. If you'd like to take a moment to read what I really think and offer some feedback on that then you can go to the second post on this thread. Thank you again.
 
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