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North Korea to enter state of war with South Korea and United States

Ivysaur

Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
21,082
Posts
17
Years
I don't live in America- I live in Spain, the European country with the forgotten fascist dictator (Paco Franco) who was allowed to roam free between 1939 and 1975 with the approval of the powers that be, including the US, because he was an ardent anti-communist and once his friends Adolf and Benito were dead he wasn't so dangerous anymore- the new bad guys were the commies!

During the 60's, our country enjoyed a period of fast growth -our GDP increased threefold in 10 years- and there were all sorts of security. At the cost of what? Well, "relative freedoms", as in, no voting or anything similar (ahaha), no writing anything against the official Party line, no demonstrations, no leaving the country without permission, and the constant threat of disappearing in a police station if you ever did something "suspicious", like handing pamphlets asking for the ability to elect our leaders.

Our process to obtain democracy started in the early 70's, with Franco agonyzing at a hospital, and we didn't finally get rid of the leading party until 1982. So I know what you are talking about.

We know that, after the war, a part of the peninsula was given a somewhat western-ish-esque system that developed, after a long and difficult process, into what SK can enjoy today. Meanwhile, the part that fell in the hands of Kim-il Sung became a crazy Stalinist state (and by "slavery", I mean negation of most individual rights- which is what they have today. Everyone must wear an Il Sung pin to be allowed to go outside? What?). You say that, without the intervention of the US, the country would have evolved, not being so dependent on the military. The problem is, Russia, their main allies through and through, were the main responsibles for encouraging such a behaviour. And, unlike Communist Germany, they had China to take their place instead and keep encouraging and subsidizing them. I personally think that, without that war, all of Korea would have fallen the same steps. In any dictatorship, the military is going to take on a leading role as they "protect" the system from the citizens- maybe not to this levels of crazy, but would have been relevant after all. That's why I think that the US original involvement was positive- at least for a part of the population, which managed to develop into a democratic country.
 
5,983
Posts
15
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North Korea does not have any allies through and through. They broke with the Soviets, as did the Chinese around the 60's with the ascent of Khrushchev and the Soviet abandoning on the Stalinist model. They also took advantage of this to break apart from the Chinese as well. The North Korean regime is also very anti-Chinese for the amount of aid they're getting. The Chinese used to have their people in North Korea, but they were sidelined as Kim Il Sung took absolute power. As well, China has been repairing relations with the US since the end of the Mao period. The North Korean interests have deviated from Soviet and Chinese interests for a long time. I don't know why you think the ex-communist countries are staunch allies. All of them had different views on communism and each other's regimes. If the Soviets and China helped encourage North Korean behaviour, it's probably because they figured that the two powers couldn't be trusted. What you claim about North Korea's former communist allies is just not true, at least not from my reading of history.

One of the reasons that the North Koreans have so little rights is to prevent them from learning about the prosperity in South Korea, which would undermine whatever legitimacy there is for the regime. Under a united Korea, this wouldn't occur. There also wouldn't be any anti-Americanism in the way we see it now, as China opened up to the US during the 70's and the Soviets during the late 80's. You say that North Korea would follow the same steps. Well I would agree to the point that South Korea and Spain also went through the same steps of military rule leading up to economic and democratic reform. It is highly unlikely, for the reasons I listed above, that North Korea would have any parallel to its regime today. In addition to uniting Korea, the Kim regime will have to deal with South Korean socialist and left-wing moderates instead of having a military core strengthened by war, the South, and breaking away from the Soviet Union and China. A Korea united under the North should at least be similar to Vietnam and China, but perhaps more so like China because it wouldn't be devastated by decades of war. In fact, a united Korea would be more industrialized than China was when it started. Hypothetically, if the two countries industrialized at the same time, Korea would end up industrializing faster.

The best reason I say that a united Korea would be different is the simple fact that there is no South. There is really no reason that a Korea united under the North would not open itself to the international community and trade. The only reason it cannot do that is because the regime would become irrelevant vs. the South. Remove this obstacle and there is really nothing stopping reform. In fact, North Korea as been starting to juggle economic reform recently. Let's not forget this time last year, everybody was speculating if the political shuffles going on meant that North Korea was preparing for reform. Reform is something that they have to consider in the context of its relationship to the south. If there was no south, there wouldn't be that obstacle.

Edit: To avoid double posting, Pak Pong-ju has been appointed Prime Minsiter, head of government, of Nort h Korea. He is reform-minded and well regarded in the defector community. There is another personality, Jang Sung-taek who is the uncle-in-law of Kim Jong-un, who has been to China to consider the formation of Special Economic Zones. For those of you who don't know, SEZ's have more free market-oriented policies than the rest of the countries - basically to encourage foreign investment. They've worked in China, so there are people in the leadership of North Korea who are still looking to liberalize their economy.
 
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OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
17,521
Posts
13
Years
Without the war Korea would've had a difficult time finding a scapegoat to blame for it's troubles...well unless we (the U.S.) tried to take out their leader much like what we've tried to do with Cuba's, and even with the now departed Hugo Chavez. The country would proably be in the same position as Cuba, not as good as we'll like but not as bad as what it has now imo.
 
314
Posts
11
Years
I think it is a country trapped in a bygone era, with a model establishment taken from mid-1900s USSR. Pyongyang even looks like Moscow from the 1970s.

The DPRK never signed a peace treaty with the South so they are technically still at war.

China is North Korea's closest ally. Both are communist and share borders. China is more concerned with its global standing than North Korea, though. It sees DPRK as a sort of diversion for the USA from other issues around that area ie China defending Taiwan. If Korea were to be reunited, then the USA would be able to have troops directly next door to China long-term. Furthermore they share similar ideals. They're both communist states. That's why, in my opinion, China supports DPRK.

I don't think DPRK will go to war. It'll make threats and slowly this news will die down. I think the new leader is trying to gain affirmation from NK citizens who doubt him. So the best way to do this is to threaten major countries of the world.
 
5,983
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15
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I have to object to liberal usage of "communist". If you mean that they are both ruled by communist parties, then yes they are communist. Are these parties revolutionary? In fact they are conservative parties, hardly revolutionary and increasingly difficult to enact change. The Communist Party of China (CPC) isn't looking towards the establishment of a stateless, classless society - okay maybe in a 1000 years, but we know that's not what's on the table when it comes to party meetings. What they are concerned about is improving free trade, encouraging foreign investment, and encouraging domestic entrepreneurship - at least in an economically equitable framework, but define that how you will because there is a capitalist class in China who own the means of production privately. There isn't even commun-ism in China anymore, as communal agriculture was disbanded long ago and the private sector is booming.

As for North Korea, I don't know if there were any developments recently, but the private sector is probably tiny, basically a black market, so economically, yes they are still collectivized and state-directed. But North Korea isn't even Marxist-Leninist anymore, they've replaced that with the Juche ideology. Korea can never be communist because the culture is far too nationalist. The Soviet Union was actually communist in this sense because they tried to break down the national identities of the countries that formed it and replace it with a Soviet citizenship. That would never happen in Korea, and not in Japan or China for that matter because East Asians are just too damn nationalist XD. Anyways the culture of North Korea is highly ethnically chauvinist and xenophobic, things we would usually call the far-right.

From the above it's pretty clear that they don't share similar ideals. China is looking to modernize its economy, broaden its trade relations and gain political influence in East Asia. North Korea seems hell-bent on preserving the party's status and power. You're right that China supports North Korea partially out of preventing US troops on its borders, but a united Korea would probably get rid of US troops as quickly as possible. First of all, because nobody would want US troops on Chinese borders on that point because it is an absolutely obsolete relic of the Cold War, and will do nothing but raise tensions. Of course it may be the goal of a future conservative South Korean or American administration to keep things the way they are, but at least we've taken out a big reason for keeping them there. Of course the US has bases in Pakistan and Kyrgyzstan already so China might be okay as long as the US doesn't boost troop sizes or add more bases. I would qualify the use of "ally" as well, as Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally of the US and we all know how wonderful that relationship is. To add more context, article two of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty says: "the two signatory nations guarantee to adopt immediately all necessary measures to oppose any country or coalition of countries that might attack either nation". Hahahahahaha like that's going to happen.

But yes, this probably isn't going to lead to war. Jon Huntsman is probably a really good authority as he was Ambassador to China, so he actually knows what he's talking about. Here's an example of the expertise of a diplomat vs. a journalist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4K5Celh4Fk
 

bradenm

Wheelie say find friends today
105
Posts
16
Years
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-advance-of-merciless-sacred-all-out-war?lite

He truly is just a kid with big toys... and no leadership skills whatsoever... Now they're telling foreigners to evacuate too. 7000 Australians evacuated the other day.. (last week i think). and today is the day it's apparently ment to happen (as of posting this it is 12:57, 10th of April in North Korea).

Today is the day to hold our breaths I guess..
 

Black Ice

[XV]
610
Posts
18
Years
  • Seen Oct 4, 2023
They're just doing test launches. It's so easy to pick out parts of a sentence and cite only those parts. Breaking news, news stations embellish their headlines. I'm too lazy to pull up the articles right now. Maybe later.
 

♣Gawain♣

Onward to Music!!!
5,000
Posts
16
Years
If NK would try to nuke someplace, they would face annihilation. Which i was hoping and praying. The US would be forced to destroy NK and millions of people will die forcefully because of the rash actions of their young leader. Kim Jong Un may not be Stalin, but maybe much worse if this things will continue.
Kim Jong Un knew the military capabilities of US and its allies which gave him the benefit of the doubt not to lunchan all out war. So for now trolling around with this "threats" would suffice. And I can't believe China's buddies with NK.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-advance-of-merciless-sacred-all-out-war?lite

He truly is just a kid with big toys... and no leadership skills whatsoever... Now they're telling foreigners to evacuate too. 7000 Australians evacuated the other day.. (last week i think). and today is the day it's apparently ment to happen (as of posting this it is 12:57, 10th of April in North Korea).

Today is the day to hold our breaths I guess..

They should've chosen a more capable leader. I don't know how they've chosen their leader, but they sure have chosen the uh... I'm not gonna say it. It reminds me of early japanese emperors, only following their councilors. Glad I moved out from my hometown to the capital. The place I'm from I'm dangerously close to NK.
 
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5,983
Posts
15
Years
Gahh, for the last time, it is not so simple as China's buddies with North Korea! I've provided a youtube video in my last post that illustrates how complex the problem actually is. And it's also not as simple as the US being forced to destroy North Korea. No country is forced to do anything - it does everything out of its own self interest. So South Korea wasn't forced to do anything to the North when it got one of its ships blown up and artillery that killed several soldiers and civilians. Anybody who believes otherwise is listening to an excuse. And Kim Jong Un is not trolling.

I think we the people need to be more prudent when it comes to considering international issues, because they are complex and morally ambivalent. Oversimplifying will only promote narrow-minded thinking that does not consider the big picture. The best example of this is how a lot of American believed that the war in Iraq was related to Saddam Hussein working with al-Qaeda. It's this lack of critical thinking that allows the US Government to conflate Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and have the mass media/public believe it!
 

KingCharizard

C++ Developer Extraordinaire
1,229
Posts
14
Years
It's this lack of critical thinking that allows the US Government to conflate Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and have the mass media/public believe it!

I like this last line, and I completely agree with your post. Its not that simple, it never is. There is always the gray area that most people are ignorant of.
 

Gyardosamped

entering snake habitat
1,462
Posts
18
Years
CNN is reporting that a new study conducted by an agency under the U.S. Department of Defense claims that North Korea may have a nuclear warhead that has the potential to be launched on a ballistic missile, which comes as a surprise because no one really thought they had these types of weapons yet. The warhead itself apparently does not have great accuracy, but it can be fired.

"Quoting from the unclassified portion, which I believe has not yet been made public, they say, quote, 'DIA assesses with moderate confidence the North currently has nuclear weapons capable of delivering by ballistic missiles. However, the reliability will be low.'" Lamborn told Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, who was testifying before the committee.

This comes after North Korea "prepares" its Musudan missiles to be launched. A U.S. intelligence official said that the missile they were allegedly going to "test" was raised to an upright launching position, but then another U.S. intelligence official stated that the same missile was placed back into its launcher. I suppose that this is a scare tactic to antagonize the international community, as Kim Jon-Un knows that the world is closely watching his country's every move.

Here's the link to the CNN article: link
 

TaylorJ52

Safe Driver
12
Posts
10
Years
Technically North and South Korea have been at war since the Korean War due to the fallout of a peace treaty. Same old, same old in the DMZ.
 

Shadowraze

ur mum
794
Posts
10
Years
I do think NK doesn't have a chance against SK even if they have those nukes :3

Plus an atomic bomb or two can make them surrender anytime ;)
 

TaylorJ52

Safe Driver
12
Posts
10
Years
I do think NK doesn't have a chance against SK even if they have those nukes :3

Plus an atomic bomb or two can make them surrender anytime ;)

North Korea's military is larger and more heavily funded than South Korea's.
Also, your view of nuclear weapons is a little skewed if you think countries are willing to just throw them around. If any of the nuclear possessive states use hydrogen bombs then all of humanity and the world suffers.
 
5,983
Posts
15
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China's come out saying it's looking for the peaceful denuclearisation of Korea, which is basically in accordance to American interests too. Even if you think it's all talk, it's only talk because the situation is rather scary and everybody's being cautious. It's in China's best interests to get rid of North Korean nukes so congrats for them declaring it even if it doesn't translate into action quickly. Note that North Korea wants negotiations but their bottom line is to maintain their nuclear capability. So these are strong words indeed.
 

TaylorJ52

Safe Driver
12
Posts
10
Years
I too look forward to better China-U.S. relations. It'll be nice to be rid of that former animosity between two societies with different ideologies. Not unlike North and South Korea.
 

BraveNewWorld

The Breaker
230
Posts
10
Years
North Korea's military is larger and more heavily funded than South Korea's.
Put a huge asterisk next to that.

North Korea
Population - 24,451,285
Military Personnel - 1,106,000
Military Reserves - 8,200,000
Military Total - 9,306,000

That's 38% of the population

South Korea
Population - 49,779,000
Military Personnel - 635,000
Military Reserves - 3,200,000
Military Total - 3,835,000

That's 8% of the population

If South Korea had 38% of its population in military service then they'd have 18,945,564 military personnel total.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/coun...country2=South-Korea&Submit=Compare+Countries
 

ShinyUmbreon189

VLONE coming soon
1,461
Posts
12
Years
North Korea's a joke. He's all bark no bite. Even if he did do something stupid like this America would extinct North Korea from the planet and he knows this. All I gotta say is, "Bring it on"!
 

Echidna

i don't care what's in your hair
2,077
Posts
13
Years
North Korea's a joke.
Wow that's really rude. The guy might be a nut-job, but what he's proposing is a means to an end, the end being the improvement of his national economy. His country is dying right now. Not saying I agree with him, and hating on him is sorta ok, just not the whole god damn country. They're people too you know.
He's all bark no bite. Even if he did do something stupid like this America would extinct North Korea from the planet and he knows this. All I gotta say is, "Bring it on"!
Yes because 'bringing it on' and killing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people would be a great way to prove our dominance over the world. Wars and massacres are always the way to go.

Seriously I thought humanity had grown past that 'conquer for glory' phase.

"To vanquish without peril is to triumph without glory" is a very old saying.
 
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