Arceus is the ancestor of Mew?

Spys said:

All Pokémon must be created. But what was the first Pokémon to exist in the Pokémon world? In the Diamond Pokédex entry, it states that Mew can learn any move and scientists believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon. So it solves the case right? Wrong. "Believe" doesnt mean a thing without proof. Now since Mew can learn any move, it has a trace if DNA connected to every Pokémon, including Arceus. So next comes Arceus. Its states that Arceus emerged from an egg and shaped the world. What?! If the first person in the world saw Arceus and wanted to write down the facts, how would they even know that the "first Pokémon" hatched from an egg if its the first Pokémon? But aside from that, its more likely that Arceus came before Mew. It is said that Arceus shaped the Sinnoh and possibly the entire world. Then he created Dialga to guard the time dimension, Palkia to guard the space dimension, Uxie, Azelf and Mespirit to keep the world in check, Groudon for the, well, ground, Kyogre for the seas and Rayquaza for the air, then created Mew from there. So the question. Is Arceus an ancestor of Mew? My answer is no. It might have traces of Arceus's DNA, but it was obviously created by Arceus, not vice-versa. Mew is the ancestor of all Pokémon, but the legendaries before it came before. So the theory is bumped, but it helps us know to not always listen to the know it all professers that seem to know the origin of existence. I hope you were entertained, as I always say, this is just a theory.
~Spys

Click to expand...

GhastlyGastly said:

Arceus isn't the "god" of the Pokémon world, it's simply been deified in ancient Sinnoh culture and mythology.

Click to expand...

Satoshi Ookami said:

Well... he is... he is referred to as god by pretty much everyone so... he is a god.
Not to mention he's "Alpha Pokemon" Alpha == 1st, ergo nothing before him.

Click to expand...

GhastlyGastly said:

Arceus is treated as a god, sure. Sinnoh mythology regards him as a creator, as a deity: that doesn't mean he is one. The label as "Alpha Pokémon" doesn't mean he was actually the first Pokémon. To me, Arceus is a Pokémon, like any other; not a god. He is a legendary Pokémon, sure; e.g., a species of Pokémon which is far rarer and more powerful than common, run-of-the-mill Pokémon. But even a legendary Pokémon is still a Pokémon. There are tribes in the Philippines that worship crocodiles as gods, because they're the biggest and most powerful creatures they know of. The people of ancient Sinnoh in the Pokémon world knew of the rare, powerful Pokémon Arceus, and treated it as a god, for the same reason.
You don't have to believe it, but that's my view. Poké-atheism is the rational position, if an unpopular one.

Click to expand...

No Chance Without Zekrom said:

My view on this topic is basically the same as Spys.

GhastlyGastly, have you ever been to the Sinjoh Ruins? For those of you who don't know, if you had a legit Arceus in your party (as the only Pokemon) in HG/SS and went to the Ruins of Alph after defeating the Elite 4, you'd be warped to a place far to the north of Johto, called the Sinjoh Ruins. Inside the ruins is a stage that you can have Arceus "dance" upon, and it'll make one of the Creation Trio for you.

I bring up the Sinjoh Ruins because I think that it sorta proves that Arceus is the god of the Pokemon world. I think something that is capable of creating beings that have power over time, space, and antimatter qualifies as a god. I'm an atheist in real life, but I don't see why there can't be a god in the Pokemon world. And then Arceus is so godly (bad pun intended) in battle...

Besides, I find Pokemon mythology interesting.

Click to expand...

GhastlyGastly said:

I have been to the Sinjoh Ruins, yes; though I consider it (and all other event-only locations and such) to be essentially non-canon, in a way. And as for Arceus' alleged creation of other Pokémon, I'm a bit skeptical. I suppose it comes back to a quote from Christopher Hitchens, which has become one of the rationales behind my real-life atheism, with regard to miracles and similar "proofs" of gods and such: "which is more likely: that the laws of the universe have been suspended, in your favor, or that somebody's made a mistake?" In other words, Arceus' alleged "creation" of the Creation Trio doesn't really qualify as proof of its "divinity" to me: there are any number of other explanations; hallucination, dream, general misinterpretation, etc.
There are very few other Poké-atheists, it seems, but I think it is the rational position. The best evidence I've seen that Arceus is some sort of "god" is, yes, its somewhat "godly" power in battle: even so, that simply proves to me that it's a very powerful Pokémon, not that it's a literal god. If anything, it gives reason for the ancient Sinnoh culture to deify it.

Click to expand...

No Chance Without Zekrom said:

You watch Arceus create an egg that quickly hatches into a Palkia, Dialga, or Giratina. I really don't think its a hallucination or dream or anything like that.

But ya know....we're probably thinking too hard/much about this.

One funny thing to point out in regards to Arceus is that its a god, but you can shove it in a PokeBall, and it'll take orders from a kid.

Click to expand...

Brendino said:

While I think that "Poké-atheism" is an interesting concept, in a world where magical creatures like Pokémon exist, I don't find it that hard to believe that Arceus is the ancestor of all Pokemon, and may very well may be a God Pokemon.

As for Mew or Arceus being the first Pokemon and who's the ancestor of who, I have an almost identical opinion to Rika. I've always figured Arceus came first, and then created many of the legendary Pokemon to control space, time, the sky, the oceans, etc., and then created Mew. While I'm sure it took millions of years, I believe that many of the Mew started turning into new species of Pokemon. But, since all Pokemon contain a bit of Mew's DNA (and because Mew contains a bit of Arceus'), it has the ability to transform into any other Pokemon that it sees if it so wishes.

Click to expand...

GhastlyGastly said:

Hahaha, wow, funny as I'm sure it is, I've actually never considered Pokémon as "magical creatures" before :pink_laugh:

I suppose my Poké-atheism really isn't rooted in any particular problem with the story we're given: the mythology about Arceus and making legendary Pokémon to govern time, space, sea, land, etc., is perfectly consistent and makes some degree of sense. I just don't see any particular reason to think that the myths are true based on that.
Though, I admit that I do have difficulty believing certain elements of the legends. Arceus' "thousand arms"? It doesn't have any arms as far as anybody knows. That, to me, reeks of simple mythology. Anyway, in other words: Arceus as a god just doesn't impress me. The evidence simply isn't there; and what evidence I've ever been presented with can be adequately explained by other things.

And I suppose while I'm at it, I might as well air another of my radical Pokémon theories :pink_giggle:
The common view is that Mew is the ancestor of all Pokémon, and, as you described, over however long, a multitude of Mews effectively "evolved" into all other Pokémon species. I see it a bit differently; my instincts as a partly-trained evolutionary biologist scream in agony at the idea that things evolved backwards (i.e., that there was a creature with the DNA of all other creatures, and thus all other creatures descended from that singular creature) :pink_disbelief: Granted, as the Pokémon world is, at best, a parallel universe to ours, and Pokémon as creatures are clearly distinct from our ordinary animals, I still can't quite wrap my head around Pokémon having evolved in reverse (especially when I remember prehistoric fossil Pokémon). It could very well have happened that way in the Pokémon world, but I'm not convinced.
That being said, it is apparent that certain Pokémon, possessing psychic abilities, are capable of apparently influencing, or traveling through, time (or at least it appears that way...). There is also apparent evidence of Pokémon being capable of interdimensionality/transdimensionality (Giratina, Haunter, etc.): a fact which may or may not be related to the apparent time-traveling phenomenon.

Anyway, given all this, I find it considerably more believable that Mew is in fact a Pokémon from the future: a Pokémon which, for whatever reason, is evidently a sort of genetic amalgam of all Pokémon which have ever existed (presumably whatever new Pokémon will be discovered in the future as well). It's a theory anyway, haha :pink_giggle:

Click to expand...

No Chance Without Zekrom said:

I think the thousand arms thing with Arceus is a reference to a deity to from a religion/creation myth in real life (and the Spear Pillar is a reference to the Shinto creation myth).

And you gotta remember, biologists aren't part of Game Freak's staff, so they're bound to make errors in regards to some biology things. Like the use of the term evolution (Your Charmander evolved into a Charmeleon!) in the games. Pokemon don't really evolve when they...evolve. Its more like a really quick metamorphism.

I have to say, your theory on Mew is interesting.

Click to expand...

Hahaha, oh, I definitely know that they don't have biologists at Game Freak: that's quite obvious :pink_laugh: haha
People don't have to agree, that's just how my brain works. I'm too attached to the Pokémon world to let things about it be unexplained, or otherwise not make sense, haha. Well and yes, I agree that the thousands arms reference is linking to religion/mythology. But that still doesn't explain why Arceus doesn't have those thousand arms...

And as for the "evolution" thing, obviously it isn't being used in a way comparable to real-life evolution. My rationalization there is simply that "evolution" is the term that the people of the Pokémon world use to describe a Pokémon's metamorphosis; though it's apparent that a more realistic evolution exists in the Pokémon world too, as evidenced by the existence of Pokémon like Anorith and Kabutops, for example. Clearly something akin to real-world evolutionary biology exists in the Pokémon world, though it is not commonly addressed (and would likely be easily confused with the metamorphosis-type "evolution" everybody normally associates with Pokémon).

I think that Pokémon "evolution" is really more like a simple aging process. Well, not quite "simple". It's something like a combination of maturation and metamorphosis; Pokémon also have the process of "leveling" which is not entirely comparable to known animal species.

A good example I like to use of a real-world animal that "evolves" in similar manner to Pokémon is the axolotl: a Mexican salamander species.

Stages of axolotl metamorphosis.​

In the wild, axolotl's seldom (almost never) reach maturity, and metamorphose; unusual among amphibians. Axolotls remain aquatic and retain their gills throughout their lives; they also breed, despite not metamorphosing into their "adult" anatomy. However, it was discovered that with the injection or inclusion of iodine into their bodies (whether artificially or via diet), the normally permanently-immature axolotl reacts to the iodine and undergoes metamorphosis into its "mature", gill-less, land-dwelling form. This is very similar to the manner in which many Pokémon react to certain items (such as certain stones).

Pokémon, I think, have a similar system. However, for many of them, "leveling" (which I think is essentially aging, and the acquisition of various maturing hormones which are activated through aging and through battling) is the means by which they may eventually metamorphose, or "evolve". For example, I do believe that Bulbasaur and Venusaur are the same species of Pokémon: Bulbasaur is merely the juvenile form, and Venusaur is the adult form (and of course Ivysaur is the intermediary adolescent form). I use that as an example because it's one of the clearest cases of Pokémon maturing: not only does the body of Bulbasaur change as it matures into an adult Venusaur, but the plant bulb on its back also matures and develops throughout its life. Pokémon merely have a less gradual aging process than most animals: rather than growing in a continuous manner, they appear to age and develop in periodic, metamorphosis-like spurts. But it's not quite like arthopod or amphibian metamorphosis, either.

It's a theory anyway. As I'm sure you've gathered by now, I'm a bit of a Poké-theorist about just about everything, haha :pink_giggle: Anyway, I digress. A bit off-topic.