Atheist Alliance

I wouldn't be so quick to write that off as a lack of knowledge. Just off the top of my head I can think of one story - Sodom and Gomorrah - where God came off looking like a bit of a bully. Considering two cities were consumed in fire and brimstone, I think that's a horror story James Cameron could do something with.

I subscribe to the view that all literary texts are open to the audience's interpretation, but that there are better and worse arguments, deeper and shallower understandings based on how much one reads and thinks about the text. Certainly the person who wrote (or wrote down) one of these Jesus fables probably had their own ideas, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that they differed from the person they heard the story from, and certainly whoever first came up with the story could not control how people read it.

I haven't really read the bible, but when I first transferred to university I met with a professor who taught some literature (my focus) and also some theological/religious stuff and as an intro to the kinds of assignments we'd be doing he had us read a biblical fable and try to find out what we might be able to tease from the text. Can't remember what it was, but it involved an a couple of people and some mundane kind of exchange or argument (lol, so specific) and the half dozen of us students tried to "find" the "moral" of the story and then after listening to us the professor suggested we think about it with one of the characters as god and the exchange as a parallel to a person's relationship with god, etc. etc. THE POINT OF MY STORY is that you can look at the surface of something and it can look like a bully, but if you look more at it you can see something different. OF COURSE in another class I took the teacher read us something from an old Buddhist guy in ye olde China who said "When I got here all I saw was a mountain. After 20 years studying I saw there was no mountain. After another 20 years I saw there was a mountain again." Or, in other words (or at least my interpretation), don't get all bent out of shape trying to find "the truth" or things.

Whoa. What did I just write?

Mockingjay said:

I don't quite remember my bible quotes or anything, so I'm not the one to talk. However, I was always told it was "dust" He made it out of or something.

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I just wanted to point out, Adam was made out of dust. The universe was made out of... nothing, really. Probably out of God's power, as stated somewhere above.

Mockingjay said:

I've tried to sit down and read the Old Testament, but I just couldn't. I've never really been able to grasp a lot of what the Bible's "trying to say"..I guess some people just don't get it. *shrug*

Well, I was in Catholic schools from ages 4~9, and from 10~14, I was in after school Catholic classes. I was taught how to be a good little Catholic girl and whatnot xD

If we had a copy of the Bible in my house, I'd check out some parts. The only thing I've ever really read into was the Revelation part..although I don't quite remember it all. Also I tried to read this one part a few years ago that was basically saying "(insert name here) who was the son of (insert name here) who lived to be 924 and had 32 other children.." and I was so lost. Whoever knows what that may be, let me know. :D

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Also, revelation is the last book of the bible... its the future, really, and is kind of hard to understand. Its interesting, but extremely hard to understand. Also, the Bible also has genealogies... which is probably what you flipped to ^^ that could actually be anywhere, Genesis, Numbers, even new testament (I think Joseph's genealogy was there in the new testament?) so I think that's what you stumbled upon.
Also, if you actually want to read it there are online Bibles available, in case you want to read it.

Toujours said:

Shining Raichu said:

I wouldn't be so quick to write that off as a lack of knowledge. Just off the top of my head I can think of one story - Sodom and Gomorrah - where God came off looking like a bit of a bully. Considering two cities were consumed in fire and brimstone, I think that's a horror story James Cameron could do something with.

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Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the story God specifically says that if there is one good person in the city, he won't destroy it. Note that no one is sinless, this is still Old Testament; he didn't want a sinless person. Just not the terrible people that populated Sodom and Gomorrah. That's how Lot was saved.

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Excuse my ignorance, but... I don't really understand how no one in the cities can be good. I mean, they're cities, aren't they? And in cities, you have families, and in families you have babies. I think it'd be reasonable to assume a fairly typical newborn population in both, and those children wouldn't be bad or good - they'd be too young to have any concept of altruism. Seems a little unfair and extreme to me to kill babies just because their parents are 'terrible' people (and this is all without bringing up the problem of murder being seen as any kind of solution in the first place).

God specifically says that if there is one good person in the city, he won't destroy it.

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I thought I remembered it being ten... hang on, let me check that.

Yeah, it is. Ten people that have to be righteous in order for the city to be spared.

FrostPheonix said:

Also, revelation is the last book of the bible... its the future, really, and is kind of hard to understand. Its interesting, but extremely hard to understand.

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Revelations is brilliant. :D I highly recommend it for anyone stuck in a hotel room with nothing to do one night - even if you're not religious, you've gotta appreciate its sheer scale.

It's time for the Red Shield Appeal, which means The Salvation Army is coming door-to-door asking for money. Mum saw them walking down the street and went to go get her purse and I said "Don't you give them anything." She stopped in her tracks and sat back down. The doorbell rang and nobody answered.

I feel very good about myself right now :). Now that money can go to a charity that doesn't discriminate who they help because of their religious views.

Hooray, exams are finally over!

Shining Raichu said:

It's time for the Red Shield Appeal, which means The Salvation Army is coming door-to-door asking for money. Mum saw them walking down the street and went to go get her purse and I said "Don't you give them anything." She stopped in her tracks and sat back down. The doorbell rang and nobody answered.

I feel very good about myself right now :). Now that money can go to a charity that doesn't discriminate who they help because of their religious views.

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...how is the salvation army discriminating on who they help? I know they don't accept people into the army if they don't believe in what they believe, but... as far as I know, they don't discriminate on who they help.

Here's an article which outlines the Salvation Army's views on LGBT rights which poses a very interesting question on whether or not the good they do is enough to excuse the evil.

Here is one instance of them actually refusing to help a gay couple unless they agreed to break up.

You can Google "Salvation Army gay" and get millions of results. They're notorious for this, and with an organisation such as the Salvation Army, there really is no doubt that it stems from the religious aspect.

Blue Nocturne said:

I recall seeing something about the Salvation Army threatening to close some of their soup kitchens in New York if they passed the law enabling Gay Marriage...

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That was some catholic church or something in Washington, was there in one of the links.

Likewise, there is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for reason of his or her sexual orientation. The Salvation Army opposes any such abuse.

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That was from the Salvation Army Website. The thing is, every organization has those... people who do things like this. Idiots who don't really do what the organization is supposed to do. And, really, only one person is needed to do something like that to give the whole organization a bad name. I scroll down and see lots of people leave comments where the salvation army hasn't discriminated, and actually helped people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I did more research, and found the original article from Browning:
Salvation Army hears dissent over Gay views
That guys who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe. But I couldn't find more such cases from reliable websites though.

And, about their beliefs throwing up a question whether the good they do excuses their 'evil'... what's the problem in bringing their beliefs into the open? As said above, most of the army doesn't discriminate based on it; they actually advocate against discrimination (at least, for homosexuality). So, other than believing something you believe to be morally wrong, where's the 'evil'? 'Cuz really, you're doing the same thing in their opinion; believing in something they believe morally wrong.

Sorry if that was a bit over blown :/ I realized my troubles weren't over with my exams :(. Seems I have projects left.

Personally I don't feel that it's fair if you donate to religious based charities, because I feel as if they'll be bias towards people who have the same faith as them which I don't think is fair. I'm not going to deny they do good things for people I just dont think its fair that they choose who they want to help.
The refusion of help to the gay couple just shows that because of their religious beliefs, even though they are a charity, they'll deny help to people who go against what the believe! This is why I wouldnt and dont really donate to religious based charities like the salvo's. I still think donating to charities is a good thing but I'd prefer to give my money to Westpac Surf Rescue Helicopters because they'll save anyone regardless of what they believe in or who they are.

OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

Before:

FrostPheonix said:

Gay-rights activist rips Bible, mocks teens fleeing room

What do you guys think? I was speechless... prior to this I supported the 'It gets better foundation' and was thinking of doing something to help it, now I'm not so sure. What was he thinking?

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FrostPhoenix said:

As to him not being the whole organisation and all, I think that if you are the founder, you're a representative of it. Actions you make will affect how your organization is being seen, and one should consider that in public speeches. At least that's how I see it.

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After:

FrostPhoenix said:

That was from the Salvation Army Website. The thing is, every organization has those... people who do things like this. Idiots who don't really do what the organization is supposed to do. And, really, only one person is needed to do something like that to give the whole organization a bad name. I scroll down and see lots of people leave comments where the salvation army hasn't discriminated, and actually helped people from all backgrounds and beliefs. I did more research, and found the original article from Browning:
Salvation Army hears dissent over Gay views
That guys who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe. But I couldn't find more such cases from reliable websites though.

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Just pointing out your change in perspective :P

You can support The Salvation Army if you like, that's up to you. But this went all over the Internet and as far as I know, they haven't apologised or even acknowledged the situation other than to say "they should have been helped" and to give some weak excuse about upheaval in the shelter's bedding system - which has been happening in 'recent years', while the incident in question was a decade ago. Until I hear from them in no uncertain terms that this was just an unruly volunteer and not a symptom of a bigger problem within the organisation, they're not getting a dime from me. Because given their official writings on the matter, from the article you linked,

"The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life."

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I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because what happened to Mr. Browning seems to be supported by the literature of The Salvation Army itself.

Shining Raichu said:

OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

Before:




After:


Just pointing out your change in perspective :P

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Well, the first case was of the founder of the organization, and the second was just some random employee. Not really the same thing.

Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.

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Well, at least they're acknowledging that it's not a choice. lol

QuilavaKing said:

Well, at least they're acknowledging that it's not a choice. lol

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Call me cynical, but I think as long as people can find a way to discriminate against you they won't mind granting you a few things for the sake of argument.

"Oh, sure, sexual orientation is not a choice, but scripture says that you can only marry an opposite-sex partner so..."

The logic next step (not a choice -> shouldn't discriminate because of it) isn't something they'll take so it's not like they're meeting you halfway or really conceding anything.

QuilavaKing said:

Well, the first case was of the founder of the organization, and the second was just some random employee. Not really the same thing.

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You're absolutely right, it's not the same thing. What Dan Savage did was completely unrelated to the It Gets Better Foundation, whereas what this random employee did he did as an employee of The Salvation Army. He didn't refuse to help these people who came to his personal front door and begged for food, he turned them away from the organisation which was created to help people in need.

Shining Raichu said:

OMG I've had this open in a tab for like three days. I totally forgot to finish this reply lmao.

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I kno how you feel... its horrible, isn't it?

Shining Raichu said:

Before:

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix
Gay-rights activist rips Bible, mocks teens fleeing room

What do you guys think? I was speechless... prior to this I supported the 'It gets better foundation' and was thinking of doing something to help it, now I'm not so sure. What was he thinking?

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-.- I did say later on that I was ranting there. I didn't really mean that.

Shining Raichu said:

After:

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix
As to him not being the whole organisation and all, I think that if you are the founder, you're a representative of it. Actions you make will affect how your organization is being seen, and one should consider that in public speeches. At least that's how I see it.

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Just bolded what I want to say ^^ I agree, if you are a member you still are a rep of the company, like you might be of your school or something, but being the leader or founder carries a special significance.

Shining Raichu said:

You're absolutely right, it's not the same thing. What Dan Savage did was completely unrelated to the It Gets Better Foundation, whereas what this random employee did he did as an employee of The Salvation Army. He didn't refuse to help these people who came to his personal front door and begged for food, he turned them away from the organisation which was created to help people in need.

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Umm, I think having a speech on homosexuality and christians does have to do with the "It Gets Better" Foundation, which has to do with homosexuals getting bullied...?

I realize that the guys turned away people for their beliefs, but I think what I said before kind of speaks out my thoughts on that:

FrostPheonix said:

That guy who tried make him break up probably wasn't the best representative of the army. Seriously? Try make someone go to church for it? That's not how you're supposed to live out Christianity :(. You shouldn't help just help people who believe in what you believe.

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Shining Raichu said:

You can support The Salvation Army if you like, that's up to you. But this went all over the Internet and as far as I know, they haven't apologised or even acknowledged the situation other than to say "they should have been helped" and to give some weak excuse about upheaval in the shelter's bedding system - which has been happening in 'recent years', while the incident in question was a decade ago. Until I hear from them in no uncertain terms that this was just an unruly volunteer and not a symptom of a bigger problem within the organisation, they're not getting a dime from me. Because given their official writings on the matter, from the article you linked,

I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because what happened to Mr. Browning seems to be supported by the literature of The Salvation Army itself.

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Didn't know that they didn't say anything except lame excuses :/. And did you ignore what I actually linked from their site?

Likewise, there is no scriptural support for demeaning or mistreating anyone for reason of his or her sexual orientation. The Salvation Army opposes any such abuse.

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It actually opposes what happened to Mr. Browning. And I guess it's your choice if you donate or not, I just wanted to clarify that, officially, they're against any discrimination of the sort.

Also, did you guys hear? Doomsday 2012 no longer will happen ^^ I saw the thread somewhere in the other chat forum. Funny, don't you think? I kinda feel sorry for those poor sods who invested all their money into bunkers and stuff in preparation for the end...

FrostPheonix said:

Just bolded what I want to say ^^ I agree, if you are a member you still are a rep of the company, like you might be of your school or something, but being the leader or founder carries a special significance.

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I think it depends. If you have final say on every It Gets Better video then, yes, you as a person are more representative since everything it being filtered through you before people see it, but since IGB is so widespread and independent it's founders are much less representative, I think.

Regarding 2012 end-of-the-world stuff, I don't think anyone actually built bunkers and things like that for the "end of the Mayan calendar" doomsday, but I know that people did sell all the possessions, etc. because of that one American radio pastor who said the world would end sometime last year. Poor saps. Still, it was fun for a while. The guy was based in Oakland, California and I was actually in Oakland the day it was supposed to happen and there was actually an earthquake (a small one) one hour after the time he said the world would end.

Scarf said:

Regarding 2012 end-of-the-world stuff, I don't think anyone actually built bunkers and things like that for the "end of the Mayan calendar" doomsday, but I know that people did sell all the possessions, etc. because of that one American radio pastor who said the world would end sometime last year. Poor saps. Still, it was fun for a while. The guy was based in Oakland, California and I was actually in Oakland the day it was supposed to happen and there was actually an earthquake (a small one) one hour after the time he said the world would end.

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I did hear about this guy who turned a Silo into a survival bunker and rich sods were buying places in it. It was on the news (MSN, so I guess you have to take it with a pinch of salt), but the guy was saying he made it completely self sufficient and all and that it had its own defense systems when mobs try raid it. Its for him and people like him that I feel sorry...