The PokéCommunity Forums  

Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates
Sign Up Rules/FAQ Live Battle Blogs Mark Forums Read

Notices

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more intellectual topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.


Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #26    
Old June 27th, 2013, 01:53 PM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
I'm not saying this as in "this shouldn't be taken care of". In fact, it affects me since I'm "gay" (but I can't act on the feelings because it goes against what I believe sooooooo asexual) and if I ever want to go back I want to keep that option open.
No, if you self-identify as gay, or in other words that you are emotionally and physically attracted to people of the same sex, you are gay. You just choose not to act on your feelings, which is perfectly fine. Whatever it is that makes you happy. However, I should clarify that being asexual means that you have no physical attraction for anyone, physically or emotionally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
It's just that lately, the world has been disappointing me constantly, and I want to say something about it.
The easy way to solve that is to not have any expectations. We always get disappointed when we expect something to happen, or not to happen. If you let go of your expectations, you'll no longer be disappointed. It's also less stressful that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Couldn't we have gone and given them these rights?
Of course, as was said before, we could have had these rights ages ago. But because until recently opinion of gay people has been so negative, society has effectively relegated us to second-class citizenship. It's improving, but not fast enough, and it's sad to say (but true) the biggest stumbling block preventing us from attaining those rights is religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Haven't you read the Bible? (and let's be honest, that's the only argument against).
I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

But any way, suffice it to say, I'm an atheist. I prefer to believe in myself and the rest of humanity rather than some supposed deity. Even if there was a God of some sort, responsible for all of creation and life on this rather insignificant planet, I seriously doubt it would have the time or the energy to give two hoots about what two people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
So why are we wasting time on something that should involve the entirety of say, 5 minutes to pass?
Because so many are standing in the way, and the majority of them cite their religious beliefs for doing so. There are some in government who even believe that homosexuality should be illegal, and all homosexual acts should be prosecuted and result in imprisonment of those found guilty. That's why it's so difficult, and that's why so much time is being spent on this. You're right, it could be solved in five minutes. But it won't because of anti-gay prejudice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
It's not that we shouldn't pay attention to it, it's just that we should pay less, because this is such an obvious answer.
Obvious to you and me, not so for others.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #27    
Old June 27th, 2013, 03:33 PM
Vader's Avatar
Vader
Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Blackthorn City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Vader
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluerang1 View Post
I liked DOMA :(

I wanted DOMA and DOCU (Civil Unions) so they can have the same benefits of marriage and it wouldn't be a big deal as it wouldn't be called marriage.
I don't know how you could logically say that. "I like unlawful discrimination of certain groups of people"?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28    
Old June 27th, 2013, 03:46 PM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
I don't know how you could logically say that. "I like unlawful discrimination of certain groups of people"?
That's the key, logic has nothing to do with it. That type of argument, that people who are gay should have civil unions, but not marriage, is a selfish argument. It's one that says: this institution belongs to me and you can't be included. It's the exact same logic that claimed the right to be able to sit at the front of the bus, but those black people, they had to sit at the back. Couldn't let those black people have the same privileged that the white folks had, now could they? I don't know. It leaves me shaking my head, honestly, that that type of mentality still exists.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #29    
Old June 27th, 2013, 05:41 PM
Subsonic's Avatar
Subsonic
OMG I Love Younha Go!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
I am very happy that DOMA has finally been struck down. It's a small victory for the LGBT community and for me, I'll take any victory I can get.

However, I do agree that religion is still a great wall in the fight for LGBT rights. Religion has been part of the US since the discover of the actual continent by the Europeans to the rest of the world. Religious beliefs and customs, mainly those of the Christian sects, have been passed down through the ages. I believe that because religion has such a strong foundation within the US, that it takes ages for the LGBT community to be able to obtain rights. It's through the passing down of the religious beliefs from parents to offspring that reluctance to pass laws that support and protect the LGBT community exists.

Many might think that not all people are religious, some are even atheist, but they aren't supporter of LGBT rights. Religion also affects them too. I believe that these feelings come from people's backgrounds. A way a person is raised can influence what they believe in the future. I believe that religious ideas have been passed down through the ages and even though a family may break off from it, the beliefs that they were raised around don't go away. They are still in root inside themselves.

Sorry, for the long rant. Just felt like I had to when I read what was being posted in this thread.
__________________


Credit: From the people of deviant whom I stole the avatar and signature from. XD
Reply With Quote
  #30    
Old June 27th, 2013, 05:51 PM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

But any way, suffice it to say, I'm an atheist. I prefer to believe in myself and the rest of humanity rather than some supposed deity. Even if there was a God of some sort, responsible for all of creation and life on this rather insignificant planet, I seriously doubt it would have the time or the energy to give two hoots about what two people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.
One request: stop looking at any reference to "the Bible" as so negative. It's pretty much the same as religious people discriminating against you. I have here implied that the Bible supports equal rights, yet this is what I get:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
I read it. It's not for me. Besides which, I have to ask, which version of the 100 or so different versions of the bible are you referring to? The bible has been translated so many different times and interpreted in so many different ways that I doubt anyone truly knows what was originally written all those centuries ago. Most serious theologians are in agreement, however, that the bible passages used to condemn homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality at all.

You could cite me any verse in the bible condemning homosexuality, and I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse. Romans, Genesis, Leviticus, any of the so-called clobber passages, they all can be interpreted to have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. It really does depend on an individual's interpretation. That is why there are so many different denominations, different interpretations. Some denominations of Christianity have no problem with homosexuality, for instance, while others do. It's interpretation. If you wish to discuss the bible with me further, though, I would ask that you PM me, or Skype me, and I will be happy to discuss it with you.
I think the saying is true: there are prejudiced people of every race, ethnicity, and walk of life. Maybe you're one of them. Think about it…and try to correct it. Think about how their view.

I know that was off topic, but your rudeness in response to my off-handed remark about the Bible and religion warrants it, and additionally, regardless of whether I was proving you wrong or strengthening your point, you condemn the Bible blindly.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #31    
Old June 27th, 2013, 06:19 PM
Subsonic's Avatar
Subsonic
OMG I Love Younha Go!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph
I know that was off topic, but your rudeness in response to my off-handed remark about the Bible and religion warrants it, and additionally, regardless of whether I was proving you wrong or strengthening your point, you condemn the Bible blindly.
It doesn't help that many interpretations/translations of the bible have blindly condemned many of us for centuries. Do you expect many of us to hold the same respect for the bible as you do or to be civil towards it?
__________________


Credit: From the people of deviant whom I stole the avatar and signature from. XD
Reply With Quote
  #32    
Old June 27th, 2013, 06:20 PM
Mariah Carey's Avatar
Mariah Carey
what a feeling
Community Supporter Tier 4
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: 42 wallaby way sydney
Age: 20
Gender: Female
Nature: Sassy
He condemned the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, rather than the Bible itself, and then he offered up an explanation stating that those same passages in the Bible can be interpreted in a way that does not condemn homosexuality or even relate to it at all, oops. Don't mistake him for being rude when he was clearly offering a different viewpoint on the situation.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33    
Old June 27th, 2013, 06:29 PM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
He condemned the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, rather than the Bible itself, and then he offered up an explanation stating that those same passages in the Bible can be interpreted in a way that does not condemn homosexuality or even relate to it at all, oops. Don't mistake him for being rude when he was clearly offering a different viewpoint on the situation.
And what did I say? I said the Bible doesn't support such a thing. I tried to explain my view, but rather he just blindly

you know what, I am disappointed in all of you guys. I wrote that with the intent that maybe you guys would understand that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination, and then you accuse me of interpreting the Bible wrong, and that I should know
Quote:
Originally Posted by something that I said not one sentence earlier
that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination,
what is wrong with all you people?

Just because you're gay doesn't give you free reign to discriminate. You are held to the same standard as everyone else.

That is what equality is. As long as you treat me like this, I am allowed to keep all the rights I feel away from you. You have not proven your will to be equal.

But you know what I'm going to do? I am going to give you all the rights you want. I am a Christian. That is what I do. Do you understand? I do not hate anyone, especially gay people. Islam, Judaism, and all the other religions hold the same view as me.

Thus, don't blame religion or the Bible. please know that.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #34    
Old June 27th, 2013, 07:54 PM
Kanzler
スペースディスコ 82.
Community Supporter Tier 3
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
I'm new to this conversation, and I'd just like to say that I don't understand how Jay was discriminating against religion. He didn't call the bible negative, just that it had multiple interpretations. I think you both were actually talking about the same thing, except he misunderstood and presumed that you believed the bible should give enough standing to "defend the definition of marriage". Let's break dis down.

Quote:
It's just that lately, the world has been disappointing me constantly, and I want to say something about it. I might have worded it a bit weirdly, but I have to say, why was this a big deal? Couldn't we have gone and given them these rights? Haven't you read the Bible? (and let's be honest, that's the only argument against) So why are we wasting time on something that should involve the entirety of say, 5 minutes to pass?
This passage tells me that droomph supports gay rights. 1) these rights are deserved, 2) these rights are delayed, and 3) the Bible is the only argument against. I see that gist of his statement being Bible being the only argument against + rights being delayed by the Bible itself = huge waste of time. And he goes on with an example on women's rights and slavery so he didn't misspeak (but believing that would be putting him in bad faith and not cool).

Further on in the thread he says "I wrote that with the intent that maybe you guys would understand that the Bible, in fact, does not condone discrimination", affirming his previous stance while Jay seemed to present his perspective as opposing droomph's while saying "I could provide you with a different, perfectly acceptable, interpretation of that same verse". So it is quite understandable the frustration he feels when "you accuse [him] of interpreting the Bible wrong". And I guess that's why he feels discriminated against, that what he said wasn't read or taken seriously, probably because he is Christian (insert understatement here). Jay agrees with him, but his perspective still taken the wrong way. I don't see a good reason for somebody's opinion to be interpreted as the exact opposite of what it is, it makes you feel undignified, condescended upon, and that you can't be taken seriously. If you said something, and somebody said "no no, you're wrong, this is how it is" and then says the exact same thing, would you not react "dude that's what I just said!"?

So my conclusion: Jay didn't discriminate against religion, but droomph was taken in pretty bad faith. And I think the rest of the people that followed read Jay's but not droomph's posts which makes a bad situation worse. The echo chamber triumphs over careful reading, and one of our posters feels a bit alienated because nobody's taking him seriously. When I read droomph's posts by themselves, I thought "what the hell is he talking about", but when you look at the whole picture, it actually makes a lot of sense. The lesson learned: critical reading beats skimming.

Spoiler:
I actually stand with droomph and several others (yes, some gay too) on this issue: that news like this isn't very newsworthy because we believe it to be inevitable. It's about time, and let's move on already. But that's all we're saying. If we ask a question, it's rhetorical emphasizing the smh at how much time it took to get these things moving. It's not like he doesn't really know why rights aren't protected <-- that's taking him in bad faith. The plot was predictable and so this event deserves a half-hearted hurrah. There's no argument to be found here, some people find it newsworthy, some people don't. It just comes down to personal preference on what one finds newsworthy - most of us still agree that rights are good and should be protected and should've been protected a long time ago and the Bible doesn't give people standing to deny others their rights. But that's besides the point.
__________________
Minerva.
Reply With Quote
  #35    
Old June 27th, 2013, 08:05 PM
Dullstar's Avatar
Dullstar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Gender: Male
From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.

Anyway, this is a huge step forward for the country, but more progress is needed.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #36    
Old June 27th, 2013, 08:08 PM
Subsonic's Avatar
Subsonic
OMG I Love Younha Go!
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dullstar View Post
From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.

Anyway, this is a huge step forward for the country, but more progress is needed.
At least the country is improving. :D
Hopefully more victories for the LGBT community will come.
__________________


Credit: From the people of deviant whom I stole the avatar and signature from. XD
Reply With Quote
  #37    
Old June 27th, 2013, 08:17 PM
Kanzler
スペースディスコ 82.
Community Supporter Tier 3
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dullstar View Post
From the tone of Jay's post, I really do think droomph is overreacting. It is not wise to take offense at other opinions, which was basically what Jay offered.
if you had actually read my post, you'll see why droomph was pissed off. if nobody's going to read my post, i'll put something here: Jay did not offer an "other" opinion, but the very same one. spooked?
__________________
Minerva.
Reply With Quote
  #38    
Old June 28th, 2013, 08:59 AM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Well, if I'm going to be accused of being rude, I might as well go all out then...

I'll put my rant in a spoiler tag so no one has to read it if they don't want to.

Spoiler:
Religion and me do not get along. At all. I refuse, now, to even step foot inside a church my disdain for it is that strong. Quite simply, I refuse to be tolerant of intolerance. I have experienced way too many religious people, both lay people and church officials, condemning me for being gay and using the bible to do it with. I have had representatives from the Mormon church come to my door and verbally blast me, telling me I'm going to hell because I am going against Gods laws. I have had a Baptist minister tell me to get out of his church because he found out I was gay and he would not tolerate the presence of "one of those people" inside the house of God. I have had Catholic activists shouting at me from across the street while attending a Pride event in my home town. As a consequence, every single day I walk outside my door I cannot hold my boyfriends hand or give him a quick kiss to say hello or goodbye when we part, like I see heterosexual couples do... all because he is too afraid to do so. It makes me extremely sad that I cannot show him the same love, except in the privacy of our home, all because of the actions of the religious groups that have acted against the LGBT community and stirred up such negative feeling amongst our fellow citizens.

This is the type of environment that anti-gay bigotry perpetrated by religion has created, all because they believe the bible tells them that homosexuality is wrong.

Droomph's interpretation of the bible is that the bible does not discriminate against gay people. I applaud him for that. But unfortunately his is just a single voice in a chorus of millions spewing the exact opposite of what he believes. Based on my personal experiences, I can categorically state that religion, by and large, does NOT tolerate homosexuality. Not the Catholics, not the Baptists, and not the Protestants. Not the Mormons and not the Muslims. They all equally condemn homosexuality, and most actively seek to deny gays and lesbians equal rights... based on their interpretations of their holy books.


Okay, end of rant.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #39    
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:24 AM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
Well, if I'm going to be accused of being rude, I might as well go all out then...

I'll put my rant in a spoiler tag so no one has to read it if they don't want to.

Spoiler:
Religion and me do not get along. At all. I refuse, now, to even step foot inside a church my disdain for it is that strong. Quite simply, I refuse to be tolerant of intolerance. I have experienced way too many religious people, both lay people and church officials, condemning me for being gay and using the bible to do it with. I have had representatives from the Mormon church come to my door and verbally blast me, telling me I'm going to hell because I am going against Gods laws. I have had a Baptist minister tell me to get out of his church because he found out I was gay and he would not tolerate the presence of "one of those people" inside the house of God. I have had Catholic activists shouting at me from across the street while attending a Pride event in my home town. As a consequence, every single day I walk outside my door I cannot hold my boyfriends hand or give him a quick kiss to say hello or goodbye when we part, like I see heterosexual couples do... all because he is too afraid to do so. It makes me extremely sad that I cannot show him the same love, except in the privacy of our home, all because of the actions of the religious groups that have acted against the LGBT community and stirred up such negative feeling amongst our fellow citizens.

This is the type of environment that anti-gay bigotry perpetrated by religion has created, all because they believe the bible tells them that homosexuality is wrong.

Droomph's interpretation of the bible is that the bible does not discriminate against gay people. I applaud him for that. But unfortunately his is just a single voice in a chorus of millions spewing the exact opposite of what he believes. Based on my personal experiences, I can categorically state that religion, by and large, does NOT tolerate homosexuality. Not the Catholics, not the Baptists, and not the Protestants. Not the Mormons and not the Muslims. They all equally condemn homosexuality, and most actively seek to deny gays and lesbians equal rights... based on their interpretations of their holy books.


Okay, end of rant.
okay let me just state here what I said somewhere else.

If you don't get along with religion, that's fine with me.

But if because and only because of that, you don't try to understand, then I am not okay with that.

What I am trying to say is, stop blaming the Church.

I have shown you that they are not supposed to be advocating discrimination.

Therefore, your hatred of the Church should rather be directed towards the people who run the organization.

Please make that distinction. It will be a lot less painful for people like me who are simply trying to help you.

And please, don't think that most people hate gay people. In fact, most of us are in the "who cares?!" category.

Let's see what could affect a view of the Christian majority "the fastest".

The Westboro Baptist Church? Hell, we complain about them about every month!

But are they the majority? No. They are far from it. They are as much the majority as I am the majority, or you are the majority. It's just that they flip out so hard, everyone notices.

Rick Santorum? The dumb guy who can't form a decent argument? I can still see, in imgur and such, that he is being discussed for his stupid statements.

But is he the majority? No. He is as much the majority as me. The only difference is, he can smoosh his face into more people lives than I can.

Almost all the Republicans "in power"? The ones that make all Republicans look bad?

But don't you know any "sane" Republicans, who are willing to listen to change and reform just as anyone else? In fact, that should be the only kind of people you know, save for a few.

My point is, just because the top few say something, doesn't necessarily mean every one of us agrees.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·

Last edited by dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚; June 28th, 2013 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40    
Old June 28th, 2013, 09:50 AM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
okay let me just state here what I said somewhere else.

If you don't get along with religion, that's fine with me.
Slight clarification, I don't get along with religions that don't get along with me. And I get along great with people who are religious, except those who use their beliefs to justify discriminating against me. I'm really a very easy guy to get along with, and am accepting of a lot of people with many different beliefs, even those that are not particularly popular. It really does make for some interesting conversations to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
But if because and only because of that, you don't try to understand, then I am not okay with that.

What I am trying to say is, stop blaming the Church.
I blame the church, not for their beliefs, but for their actions. It is demanded of me that I take responsibility for my actions, and I believe the same should be true with everyone else, whether they are individuals or groups of people. The church has been responsible for many horrors against the LGBT community, including being indirectly responsible for the many deaths that resulted in the prejudiced actions of their followers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
I have shown you that they are not supposed to be advocating discrimination.
The church doesn't exactly listen to you though, do they? They have their own agenda so they purposefully ignore you and others like you. You don't contribute to their agenda so you don't really matter to them (except when it comes to passing around the donation plate). That's just the way it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Therefore, your hatred of the Church should rather be directed towards the people who run the organization.
You're right, it should, and it does. But I also lay the blame at the feet of the followers of those church leaders who do not speak up, who blindly follow their church's teachings, who wilfully ignore the plight of those they condemn. The church leadership cannot continue on a path of discrimination unless their followers allow it. And right now, I see that most of the followers not only allow it, they agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Please make that distinction. It will be a lot less painful for people like me who are simply trying to help you.
You can help by directly confronting your church leaders on their bigotry. You can gather others of like-minded people to stand up to your church leaders and force them to alter their thinking. The only reason they're given free reign to act as they do is because their followers have been cowed into submission so that they will not cause dissent among the ranks and undermine the church leaders' power.

Right now the voices against the LGBT community from within the church are so loud that they're drowning out the voices that seek to change the church's belief on this issue. What's needed is for your voice to rise above the din so that it is the voice that is heard, and not those spreading hate against the LGBT community.

As I said, I'm intolerant of intolerance. So long as I am shown intolerance, that is what will be given back in return. I'm old enough now that most of my life is behind me, not ahead. I don't have time to treat bigots with kid gloves any more.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #41    
Old June 28th, 2013, 10:10 AM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
As I said, I'm intolerant of intolerance. So long as I am shown intolerance, that is what will be given back in return. I'm old enough now that most of my life is behind me, not ahead. I don't have time to treat bigots with kid gloves any more.
Forgiving≠forgetting. Please keep that in mind. In fact, forgiving means to remember. How can you forgive, if nothing bad has happened to you? However, it's to start over.

It's just like a video game with "lives". Everyone involved knows that you screwed up, and the "lives counter" at the top repeatedly reminds you of the fact you screwed up, but you try to go through the same thing without screwing up again, and try the same thing without doing the mistakes you did..

And "intolerant of intolerance"? I'm sorry, but I don't get that.

If you are intolerant of intolerance, aren't you intolerant? And don't you then have to be intolerant of yourself? And so on, to ad infinitum? That's the wrong way to live, especially for a person in a group that needs all the tolerance it can get and give.

And all religions get along with you.

For example, Islam and Judaism are closest to Christianity, so by default, their teachings advocate not to discriminate.

Buddhism and Hinduism state the path to Nirvana, or eternal peace, and nothing about moral living, other than guides for the weak-minded, which most shouldn't need anyway.

Traditional Chinese ideologies state that people should be respectful to others, and that is the point we're trying to make with equality.

Traditional religions, while some are crude and seemingly uncivilized for their human sacrifice and such, do almost nothing about morality other than recommendations, in order to please their gods.

I can't name one religion whose ideology doesn't promote a better world through equality and peace. It seems that you haven't caught my intentions and maybe I didn't say them clearly enough, but by the definition of the word "religion", all of them allow or promote equality, and none to suppress.

I am also trying to rise above the people, but the truth is, we have to ignore those who are loud and see those who don't speak as loudly. We will always try, but the truth is, the stupid people are always louder than the smart, because they don't know when is an appropriate time to stop talking. The best way to defeat them is to set a role model, and when the stupid people see that nobody cares about their opinion anymore, they will follow the role models and try to voice their opinion that way, and in the end will be a more effective tactic than to drown them out. I mean, if your neighbors were playing loud music, what's the worst thing you can do? Play louder music that you like to drown them out. But what does that solve? It makes them angry, and hurts you because you are doing more the exact same thing that you want to get rid of because it hurts you. But what's the best way to solve it? Ignore them, and when they stop playing the music, whenever that is, confront them politely and ask to be more considerate of others.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #42    
Old June 28th, 2013, 10:54 AM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
Forgiving≠forgetting. Please keep that in mind. In fact, forgiving means to remember. How can you forgive, if nothing bad has happened to you? However, it's to start over.
Forgiveness can only come when there is an acknowledgement that a wrong has been done. In the eyes of those who are anti-gay rights, they are doing no wrong so forgiving those who refuse to repent cannot be given. I can only forgive those who have seen the harm they have done and who truly wish to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
And "intolerant of intolerance"? I'm sorry, but I don't get that.

If you are intolerant of intolerance, aren't you intolerant? And don't you then have to be intolerant of yourself? And so on, to ad infinitum? That's the wrong way to live, especially for a person in a group that needs all the tolerance it can get and give.
Would you tolerate a person who would act to suppress your right to your religion, or would you fight back against that person's actions to protect your rights? This is what it means to be intolerant of intolerance. It does not mean you condemn the individual, only their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
And all religions get along with you.

For example, Islam and Judaism are closest to Christianity, so by default, their teachings advocate not to discriminate.

Buddhism and Hinduism state the path to Nirvana, or eternal peace, and nothing about moral living, other than guides for the weak-minded, which most shouldn't need anyway.

Traditional Chinese ideologies state that people should be respectful to others, and that is the point we're trying to make with equality.

Traditional religions, while some are crude and seemingly uncivilized for their human sacrifice and such, do almost nothing about morality other than recommendations, in order to please their gods.

I can't name one religion whose ideology doesn't promote a better world through equality and peace. It seems that you haven't caught my intentions and maybe I didn't say them clearly enough, but by the definition of the word "religion", all of them allow or promote equality, and none to suppress.
Based on their actions, I strongly have to disagree. Perhaps in theory, you are correct, but in practice you are wrong. There is a clear distinction between ideal and action, and it's actions that often speak louder than words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
I am also trying to rise above the people, but the truth is, we have to ignore those who are loud and see those who don't speak as loudly. We will always try, but the truth is, the stupid people are always louder than the smart, because they don't know when is an appropriate time to stop talking. The best way to defeat them is to set a role model, and when the stupid people see that nobody cares about their opinion anymore, they will follow the role models and try to voice their opinion that way, and in the end will be a more effective tactic than to drown them out. I mean, if your neighbors were playing loud music, what's the worst thing you can do? Play louder music that you like to drown them out. But what does that solve? It makes them angry, and hurts you because you are doing more the exact same thing that you want to get rid of because it hurts you. But what's the best way to solve it? Ignore them, and when they stop playing the music, whenever that is, confront them politely and ask to be more considerate of others.
In my 40 years on this planet it is rarely my experience that ignoring something makes it go away. A very good example of this is the Westboro Baptist Church, an anti-gay hate group. People have been trying to ignore them for ages, and instead of quietly disappearing, as your theory suggests, they instead get louder, more obnoxious, until finally they can't be ignored any longer. We largely ignored the terrorist groups, treating them as nonsensical radicals who could do no real harm to the country (although steps were taken to protect the people), and then came 9-11 and the terrorists couldn't be ignored any longer. The country had to act. Granted, these are all extreme examples, but they all go to the point that ignoring a problem does not make it disappear. It can, and does, only make the problem harder to solve.

Your loud music scenario is an interesting one, because it ignores the obvious. Rather than counter the loud music with even louder music, you can confront the problem by calling the authorities to have your neighbour turn the music down. This is what I meant by making your voice heard above the haters. Certainly ignoring your loud neighbour's music isn't going to make the noise go away. You have to take action to do that.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #43    
Old June 28th, 2013, 10:58 AM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
perhaps you're right, but I'm just tired of all religious people being grouped under one lump, just as much as you are being oppressed.

If we can show them what joy peace and understanding can bring, then we don't need to speak louder than them. What can they do? We've already done all we can through the repeal of this act. Now we just need to show them why we're right.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #44    
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:06 AM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
perhaps you're right, but I'm just tired of all religious people being grouped under one lump, just as much as you are being oppressed.

If we can show them what joy peace and understanding can bring, then we don't need to speak louder than them. What can they do? We've already done all we can through the repeal of this act. Now we just need to show them why we're right.
As you mentioned so accurately before, it's not religion itself that is the problem, but rather the leadership within the religious denominations that are the root of the problem. It's going to take a real concerted effort by the members of those churches to effect real change. Until that happens, though, sadly, nothing will change, and gays and lesbians will still be set upon by these leaders and the followers who believe as they do. Change can happen, but the people have to want it to.

The repeal of section 3 of DOMA is a great start. But it's a start only. Because in only 12 state, plus DC, are gays and lesbians allowed to married. That means, in all the other states, wherever there are gay couples in civil unions or domestic partnerships, the abolition of this act does nothing for them. They will still not have all of the rights enjoyed by a married couple.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #45    
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:15 AM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
But it's a voice that can be heard.

Just as calling the authorities doesn't immediately make the music stop, it's something that doesn't immediately make the discrimination stop.

And be optimistic. Instead of saying that there's 38 states that don't allow them to be equals, instead say that there's twelve states that do! It's slowly but surely defeating the wrong, so we should celebrate the fact that there are already twelve, which is twelve more than zero.

If you aren't convinced, think about the Civil Rights movement! It didn't just happen overnight, it happened over 65 or so years beforehand. And since we are in comparison to where we were in the 1960s, the end of the movement is near. We are almost there. So keep a head up and march forward.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #46    
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:21 AM
Alessi_sys's Avatar
Alessi_sys
Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessi_sys
Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
But it's a voice that can be heard.

Just as calling the authorities doesn't immediately make the music stop, it's something that doesn't immediately make the discrimination stop.

And be optimistic. Instead of saying that there's 38 states that don't allow them to be equals, instead say that there's twelve states that do! It's slowly but surely defeating the wrong, so we should celebrate the fact that there are already twelve, which is twelve more than zero.

If you aren't convinced, think about the Civil Rights movement! It didn't just happen overnight, it happened over 65 or so years beforehand. And since we are in comparison to where we were in the 1960s, the end of the movement is near. We are almost there. So keep a head up and march forward.
I don't think anything will truly ever put an end to discrimination. There are still people who don't think women deserve equal rights. There are still people who think interracial couples shouldn't marry, and there are also people who think slavery shouldn't have been abolished. We can fight to ensure our governments and our laws treat us as equals, but there is no law that can make an individual treat another equally.

I'm very thankful that I live in a country where all of the rights the LGBT community in the U.S. is fighting for has already been won. Of course we still face discrimination, but for the most part, it doesn't come from our government any more.
__________________

ALESSI_SYS
3411-1525-5963

Dark-Type Safari with: Sneasel, Vullaby & Liepard
Personal Website
Canadaquaria Forum nScale.net
"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ~ Obi Wan Kenobi
Reply With Quote
  #47    
Old June 28th, 2013, 11:35 AM
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚'s Avatar
dʒɹʌmpfʼt̚
alors on danse
Community Supporter Tier 5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: bar'jách
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Time to get a little less serious, but here's how I see it:



(it's sorta PG-13 because it says "s***" twice so keep that in mind before you click)

But that's how I view the whole debate in about, not just in 50 years, but in 10 or so years. It's happening quick.
__________________

could you ····ing not
·
Reply With Quote
  #48    
Old June 29th, 2013, 08:25 PM
TRIFORCE89's Avatar
TRIFORCE89
Guide of Darkness
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Temple of Light
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
I guessed all the supreme court decisions correctly this week. I should have had money on this XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_37040 View Post
I don't think anything will truly ever put an end to discrimination. There are still people who don't think women deserve equal rights. There are still people who think interracial couples shouldn't marry, and there are also people who think slavery shouldn't have been abolished. We can fight to ensure our governments and our laws treat us as equals, but there is no law that can make an individual treat another equally.

I'm very thankful that I live in a country where all of the rights the LGBT community in the U.S. is fighting for has already been won. Of course we still face discrimination, but for the most part, it doesn't come from our government any more.
There's a fine line. Sometimes it comes off as trying to outlaw douchebaggery
__________________

Last edited by TRIFORCE89; June 29th, 2013 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Style by Nymphadora, artwork by Sa-Dui.
Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.