Chit-Chat: Welcome to the Strategies & Movesets forum for Sun & Moon!

Zeffy said:

I don't think that'd happen. I was talking about them getting a new version of Drought and Drizzle

Click to expand...

What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Salt&PepperDiner said:

What exactly would a new version of Drought/Drizzle be?

Click to expand...

Zeffy said:

Drizzle and Drought enhanced? Maybe they'll get a perpetual weather version? :O

Click to expand...

I'm just making an assumption. I'm more curious about "Ancient Devolution," to be honest. I've read that it's basically like a mega evolution.

While we don't know exactly how the Primals' stats will be enhanced, I think that specially defensive Primal Groudon makes a decent Xerneas check. Assuming a decent increase in special bulk, Primal Groudon could act as a mixed wall of sorts. It still plays similarly to regular Groudon, but Primal Groudon fears Water moves more than ever. Its Fire moves are now stronger, since they gain STAB from Primal Groudon's Fire type and are potentially boosted by Sun.

Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

PlatinumDude said:

Updates on Mega Sableye: Its Defense and Special Attack get buffed, but its Speed suffers at the same time. It also gains the Magic Bounce ability.

I bet Special Defense will get increased a bit too, but the Speed drop is understandable, considering the huge gem Mega Sableye carries around. If Special Attack gets increased to a usable level, Mega Sableye won't have to rely on Foul Play for consistent damage (it's still useful against physical attackers, though), but at least it can use Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse more reliably now.

The question is, can Mega Sableye do Magic Bounce abuse better or just as well as Espeon, Xatu and Mega Absol?

Personally, I think that regular Sableye is still good thanks to Prankster letting it fire off quick status moves before getting hit, while its Mega form can screw around with opposing status with Magic Bounce. Whatever Sableye form to use will depend on the team or whether the Mega slot is taken up, though.

Click to expand...

Mega Sableye is quite interesting, I was expecting a boost to Defense and the lowered Speed which is fitting for the huge jewel it uses as a shield. Magic Bounce is of course a game changing ability when played right, it can disrupt strategies when timed correctly but I think Sableye can still do Prankster just as well, like you said it all depends on the team and what took up the Mega slot.

Can't wait to see how it will impact on the metagame once OR/AS comes out.

It's kinda funny how Mega Sableye goes from wrecking people with its own priority status to wrecking people by reflecting status moves. I think that both forms will be usable, and which one you use depends on the team. The advantage that Mega Sableye has over the other Magic Bouncers is that its not weak to Dark or Fighting, and is generally bulkier than them.

Just realized something: Calm Mind Mega Sableye is going to be dangerous, given that Magic Bounce means stall can't do much to it:
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Dazzling Gleam/Will-o-Wisp/Substitute
-Recover
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Sablite (if that's the name of the new Mega Stone)
Ability: Prankster

Hey folks, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have both been suspected by Smogon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...g-round-4-alienation-of-the-wretched.3509824/

So yeah, as someone down on the first page noted, it's funny how the Deoxys rodeo began in gen four and regardless of what you think of the test, they're probably getting banned...again. YOLO

(Even though I haven't seriously laddered in a few months and don't have a strong opinion either way for either suspect, I can't wait for the usual "failure to adapt" arguments as if broken things should stay in the metagame because people don't want to bend over backwards to beat them. lol.)

You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Dark Azelf said:

You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Click to expand...

Mega Gengar was insanely broken br0 let's be real #freereuniclus

I do think it's actually easier to get rid of hazards than people think though. I agree with that. Defiant is only so much of a deterrent. It's still pretty impossible to deny how great Deoxys is as a supporter. No opinion on Deo-S...my team was pretty overprepared for it sort of by accident, so its impact was usually limited when I laddered seriously. But I'm curious, does "these are bigger problems" translate to "Deoxys isn't a problem" br0?

Knock Off is a very tough sell. Many megas can "block" it and it's no more mindless than, say, DP(P) Draco/Outrage or...I hate to go there, but a move like Stealth Rock. It does a lot more damage to you over the course of the match and is even easier to abuse. It *is* the best move in the game, probably, soooo... (No, I'm not advocating for a ban or even test of Stealth Rock, but I wouldn't get carried away. And Dark is a good offensive type, but it's not Ghost or pre-gen6 Dragon.)

Aegislash's time is coming and it could very well get banned, mostly because its stats and typing both offensively and defensively are just out of this world. It has shades of DPP Latias--flexible, abusable STAB, useful resists, etc., and it's by no means unstoppable, but it's very consistently GREAT. That will be interesting.

(However, beyond that, I don't think anything is really approaching broken, though that could change with a new metagame. But Thundurus is too frail and vulnerable, Landorus too slow and reliant on a STAB that many great pokes are immune to, and Charizard just doesn't pass the eye test to me.)

Rechi's post in that thread sums it up basically. Defog makes hazard removal a lot easier but Deo-D guarantees SR with red card allowing it additional hazards or a t wave if he's lucky. Bisharp isn't an instant win if it gets a defog boost but at the least your opponent will have to sac something with sucker punch getting chip damage, or getting substantial chip damage on something like scarftar or terrakion on the switch, which can benefit you if you're a good team builder and the common checks to bisharp happen to wall your main sweeper. These 2 pokes alone force you into a disadvantage with ease and are more lethal the slower a team is. I agree with D-A that knock off is broken but I will go I to detail later. Landorus and Thund player hating post on its way as well

Landorus -t is going to see a lot more usage in ubers tbh since groudon den becomes weak to eq, but the fire typing should help tank geoxern, idk about the spd at this point. If mega Kyogre gets better bulk it should also be able to take atleast one good hit from geoxern. Since ubers is basically a geoxern meta rn it's all that comes to my mind. But tbh Kyogre just seems to become more and more op. Gone are the days when groudon took advantage of weakened water attacks in sun, atleast it can take some ice beam locked kyogre's on :>

Oh well #optimism

Dark Azelf said:

You'd think with all the Defog/Rapid Spin spam people wouldnt be moaning.

To be honest i see Aegislash and Knock Off as FAR bigger issues in the metagame.

#freeMegaGar

Click to expand...

I don't think Deo-D and Deo-S aren't malignancies upon the metagame, but I can't wait for the delicious Aegislash suspect sh*tstorm that will invariably happen.

Like Anti said, it's like DPP Latias. I think the arguments by smogon user Halcyon sum up my emotions:

Nope, it's actually way more comparable to Genesect. Aegislash is most definitely deserving of a suspect at least. It's a Pokemon that alters the metagame like no other. Answer me this: why do Ttar and Mega Pinsir run Earthquake? Why does Lucario run Earthquake? Why does Scizor run Knock Off when it's an inferior option to Superpower? The answer is Aegislash.

It's an incredibly centralizing Pokemon. The entire tier revolves around it. Every team has to be stacked with ways of beating it, and even then it is still capable of destroying teams with support. It's got a multitude of sets and there is no one Pokemon that can counter it (which means it is capable of ♥♥♥♥ing stall). SubToxic, KS 3 attacks, speedy LO 3 attacks, LO SD 3 attacks. All these are viable threats that can defeat whatever option you have to beat it. It can go physical, special, or mixed. It can be slow and bulky or slightly faster than key threats (Bisharp) and super powerful. Not to mention all the 50/50s it creates with Kings Shield. Please tell me how this is not EXACTLY like Genesect? The only thing Genesect had that Aegislash doesn't is U-turn. It's the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier bar none. It is a monster with both 150/150 defenses and 150/150 offenses. How does this not scream "suspect worthy"?

Click to expand...

Honestly, I'd just love to see the metagame without Aegislash. It'd be really interesting. I'm not saying I want it banned, but just that I think it'd be cool to experience the metagame without what is arguably its most defining Pokemon.

Although let's be honest, everyone knows that Landorus and Thundurus will be the next suspects.

I guess Aegislash is centralizing although I don't think the current situation is as bad as bw2 landorus keldeo breloom meta where the best pokemon all had the same counters and every team was those 3+ a tyranitar and a latios. I'm on the fence about aegis, I think kings shield is its most broken aspect since it can stop a sweep by forcing a predicton.

Zekrom said:

Apparently a few other Pokemon were moved around in UU and OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/

Goodra is also in UU now, and Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Smeargle are now in OU.

I'm not surprised at Vaporeon being OU; its always been good for me. Little annoyed at Smeargle being in OU since I had a sorta Baton Pass team in UU with it. My other UU team also had Vaporeon in it, so its look like I'll have to adjust my teams now....

Oh, and apparently Jolteon has dropped to RU.

Click to expand...

I was real surprised that Goodra got dropped to UU; it's a freaking Psuedolegendary.
Not alto surprised at Vaporeon, that beast has got bulk beyond belief.
Smeargle kind of surprised me, but I can see why its in OU now, its a pretty damn good baton passer/supporter.
Jolteon was given, as it's glory days are gone over. Kind of sad to see it go, as it was one of my favorite pokemon at one time. I can't remember the last time I've seen someone use it, so I guess this drop was rightfully so.

I would like to start a new discussion, on Protean Greninjas. I think this pokemon is pretty damn cheap and annoying, but Im just wondering what you guys think on it. Although, I am mostly an NU player, so this doesnt affect me too much, but when I do venture into OU, I should either be prepared to use a Greninja or face off against one.

SuperEspeon said:

I was real surprised that Goodra got dropped to UU; it's a freaking Psuedolegendary.

Click to expand...

Being a pseudo legendary doesn't automatically make something good. Metagross, who is also a pseudo legend, dropped to UU this gen despite being solidly OU since it was introduced because of Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part). Haxorus and Hydreigon are stuck in BL because of their frailty and Fairies (Hydreigon also wishes it had Nasty Plot). I think Goodra's problem is its lack of good recovery and that pure Dragon typing is really meh. If it had Recover or something, it would make a great special wall. It could also use a little bit more power too.

And hell, being legendary doesn't make a Pokemon automatically good either: see Articuno, Regigigas, etc.

I would like to start a new discussion, on Protean Greninjas. I think this pokemon is pretty damn cheap and annoying, but Im just wondering what you guys think on it. Although, I am mostly an NU player, so this doesnt affect me too much, but when I do venture into OU, I should either be prepared to use a Greninja or face off against one.

Click to expand...

Eh, Greninja's hardly the worst thing out there. I find Talonflame and Aegislash to be more of a pain in the ass. With Greninja you can just use a special wall or a Choice Scarf user. Not saying Greninja isn't a threat. I think people just really like it because Protean is a cool ability and we finally have a good Water starter besides Blastoise.

And ninjas are awesome.

Zekrom said:

Being a pseudo legendary doesn't automatically make something good. Metagross, who is also a pseudo legend, dropped to UU this gen despite being solidly OU since it was introduced because of Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part). Haxorus and Hydreigon are stuck in BL because of their frailty and Fairies (Hydreigon also wishes it had Nasty Plot). I think Goodra's problem is its lack of good recovery and that pure Dragon typing is really meh. If it had Recover or something, it would make a great special wall. It could also use a little bit more power too.

And hell, being legendary doesn't make a Pokemon automatically good either: see Articuno, Regigigas, etc.

Click to expand...

He's right, being a legendary or pseudo-legendary doesn't always mean you'll be guaranteed as a higher tier Pokemon, and of course there are flaws with these guys that 6th Gen caused for them due to the aforementioned changes.

Haxorus and Hydreigon struggle very badly against Fairy-types if they don't have the right coverage move equipped plus they're fairly frail against them thanks to the former's weak Sp. Defense and the latter's nasty 4x weakness to Fairy moves, meaning one of those lil cuties pretty much spells easy death for the tri-headed dragon. Gardevoir, Azumarill, Sylveon, Clefable and Togekiss run rampant and they have the power and stats to back them up.

If Goodra had a little more in its offensive stats it would have been higher up, but yeah it's the lack of recovery that brings it down because in most situations because Rest is not really considered "reliable". I found it weird how something based around slime and goo couldn't learn Recover, but still the Assault Vest makes it quite the wall, and Gooey can make physical attackers think twice.

As for Metagross... this shows just how much the loss of Steel-type's resistance to Dark and Ghost brought down such a powerful beast, and it was made even worse by the fact that Meteor Mash got weakened in base power meaning it's not as reliable as it was previously. However, this was a blessing to Bisharp, who still remains the sole Steel-type to resist both Dark and Ghost. I found this nerfing just as much of an impact than the Fairy-type.

Over the generations we can really see once previous beasts now becoming so bad in the standard game, Articuno was quite a powerful Ice-type back in 1st Gen days but the introduction of Stealth Rock really made the icy bird fall from his former glory. Or how amazing of a wall Snorlax was in the early generations but then the dominance of Fighting-types just meant he couldn't survive in an environment full of these brutes.

And given the new Megas we'll be seeing in Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire I'm imagining even more changes when those games come out, I know for sure Wash Rotom may have to run Hidden Power Ice due to Mega Sceptile heavily resisting its STAB moves. It's like the day we saw Scizor really get his claim to fame when Platinum gifted him with Bullet Punch.

And as said by Tamashii Hiroka herself in one of her videos (Top 5 Worst Legendaries) being Legendary doesn't always mean Uber.

Zekrom said:

Steel losing resistance to Ghost and Dark (which I still think was a dumb move on Game Freak's part).

Click to expand...

Think about how op aegi would be if not for the steel nerf but yeah jirachi,Bronzong,meta all have suffered ... Bad :(

srinator said:

Think about how op aegi would be if not for the steel nerf but yeah jirachi,Bronzong,meta all have suffered ... Bad :(

Click to expand...

I have to agree with Sri. Any team with Pokémon such as Jirachi are now suffering badly. Teams with Pokémon like that used to be a pain in the bottom (yes, I said bottom!), but now ... these changes have caused them to decrease in their 'pain in the bottom'-ness, causing a lot of Competitve Teams to collapse, in my opinion.

Figured I'd bump this up because another batch of details from CoroCoro has revealed Mega Diancie's ability to be Magic Bounce. What's everyone's thought on this?

In my opinion, I feel like we're getting too many Megas with that ability but at least it's nothing lackluster. Aside from that, I am still expecting a boost to her special stats when she goes Mega but I'll be happy with whatever stat boost they go with.