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  #9651    
Old April 20th, 2009 (12:32 PM).
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But the fact that my story is not updated often (while being something I know is very important to a certain type of reader) does not by default make everything that is updated more often more readable.
Eh, it actually does make their stories more accessible, and hence more readable. The two things go hand in hand.

Everyone has a breaking point when it comes to the price of being entertained. Waiting a year for one chapter is a steep price, and not many people are going to be willing to pay it. If you find those few people that will stick with your writing, then that's all fine and dandy, but you can't expect such readers, because they're simply too far and in-between.

Let me put it this way. Readability is a combination of many factors, but some primary ones are a) a good plot, b) audience relation, c) the "reading fatigue" factor (i.e. wall o' text) d) grammar, e) dependability, and f) pacing. Now: if we give a score of 1-10 in each category pertaining to a given fic, we'll get an overall idea of the readability. A higher overall score means more readable, and vice-versa.

In my opinion, your fic would score a one in dependability because it's updated so infrequently. The rest of the fic could be stellar, but the readability score is still lower compared to a fic of similar quality that is updated more.

Different readers have different tolerances for different categories, as well, which makes this even more complicated. One may be willing to wait forever for a chapter, while another will lose interest after a week. I would say the majority of people online enjoy quick access to their entertainment (just a hunch), which means your score of one in dependability hurts your fic's readability even more.

So yeah, releasing chapters with such long intervals in between does in fact make it less likely that your fic will be read and reviewed. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but it's the honest truth.

EDIT: Ninja'd to deeeaaaatttthhhhh
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  #9652    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:01 PM).
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Holy crap, I wrote a long answer and accidentally close this tab. This feeling can't be expressed in words. Only in onomatopoeia. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHH!!!

Anyway, I was talking about how reviewing is really a pain in the ass. First, you have to read the fic with thought and look for all kinds of mistakes, and then you have to analyze and comment it with thought. I myself can't be bothered to do that very often, so I don't really expect people to do it for me. I do get overly happy when I get one, though.

Even though I don't get reviews, I still like to think people read what I write. My fics do have quite some views, and I like to believe they aren't those few-second visits where you skim the text and decide not to read it. I like to believe that people read my fics, so it doesn't really matter whether someone actually reads it or not. I feel like I'm writing for actual readers, and that's pretty much all that matters from my viewpoint.

I'm not saying that it is selfish to expect reviews. I do, however, think that it is a bit unreasonable to expect reviews when it's already against the rules to give you ones, when your fic has been buried to the 2358th page and when you yourself haven't appeared much. You need attention to get attention, if you understand what I mean. That's basically what we're trying to tell you, and we're not trying to be mean about it. That's just simply the way it is for everyone.

And, yeah, at least for me, writing reviews is a pain in the ass. I should imagine it is something far worse for people who make longer and more detailed reviews. Take Jax, for example, hers are always so thorough and detailed - not to mention wanted. (Although I don't really understand why some people ask for her reviews when they're only going to be pissed off by it and end up completely ignoring everything they bothered her to say. It's the same thing with other people who write good reviews. It pisses me off. Not that this is really related to the subject at hand or anything.)

Also, if you want reviews, there's always the PC Review Trading Center.

And not that I'm trying to change the subject or anything, but how useful is FFnet in terms of feedback? I'm feeling like revising some fics, and I'm not feeling like posting them here again so soon. So, maybe I should start conquering FFnet. Or not.
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  #9653    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:10 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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Okay, but this is your own opinion. Your definition of "readability" differs from everyone else's
It doesn't actually, not from the reviewers whose feedback I actually take to heart and respect. We are really on the same wavelength, their reviews are just not all gathered in one forum or site.
Quote:
and judging by the numbers of reviews other 'morph fics get, you're still getting competition.[
I gave up making FF.net a contest ages ago, not because I could not keep up if I wanted to, but because I would much rather just write what I honestly felt was lacking in the fandom themes I enjoyed . Because years later, (when the only reader even the best once Great One of a fandom has are themselves again, or the world as we know it ends and there is no internet), it's better to have a story you enjoy reading to show for your hard work. all and all I think . At least, in terms of FF.net, where I find it is far more common to find like minded readers than forums anyway...
Quote:
Also, come to think of it, looking back on your first posts (which are quoted in mine), you really don't give that impression that you're asking a general question. In fact, you shoot down my initial advice by saying it doesn't fit what you're asking, as if you're asking for help on your own story, rather than actually asking a general question.
That's true . But still, I do wonder more about the nature of writing a movie like montage (a very cheesy example would be the one from the Rocky movies) in a story format (regardless of pov), for what it is worth...
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  #9654    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:13 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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Quote originally posted by An-chan:
And not that I'm trying to change the subject or anything, but how useful is FFnet in terms of feedback? I'm feeling like revising some fics, and I'm not feeling like posting them here again so soon. So, maybe I should start conquering FFnet. Or not.
Eh, it's sort of okay, I think. There's a lot of people who will post one-liners or general praise, but you still have a percentage of people who are willing to go into thorough detail the way people do on a forum or leave suggestions for improvement at all. You're more likely to get the former, but it's not unlikely to get the latter if you're patient enough. (My advice is to enable anonymous reviewing. I don't know about a lot of other people, but most of my concrit comes from people who leave unsigned reviews.)

But to tell you the truth, I think you'll be more likely to get concrit from a forum. I can't really explain why a fanfiction community's reviewers don't often leave good concrit, but FFNet's practically notorious for that sort of thing. *shrug*

Edit:

Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
It doesn't actually, not from the reviewers whose feedback I actually take to heart and respect.
That's great, but I'm talking about the general public here. Your views don't necessarily agree with those of your entire audience.

Quote:
I gave up making FF.net a contest ages ago,
...And yet, you're still wondering about reviews and whether or not you're getting something worthwile out of writing/feedback in general. (Yes, this comes from an earlier quote. If you'd like, I could go back and link to the post in which you said this.)

Also, that's not what I mean by "competition." I don't mean it's a contest. I mean it's you vying for a percentage of attention against the masses. In other words, it's not whether or not you win attention or do better than the people around you. It's whether or not you keep up with everyone around you in order to get the attention you want. It's basically like you're a puppy in a mass around a mother dog. If you're the runt of the litter, you'll get shoved out of the way by those who put themselves forward. In other words, what I'm talking about isn't so much a contest as it is just a survival-esque setting. *shrug*
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  #9655    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:17 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Valentine:
Eh, it's sort of okay, I think. There's a lot of people who will post one-liners or general praise, but you still have a percentage of people who are willing to go into thorough detail the way people do on a forum or leave suggestions for improvement at all. You're more likely to get the former, but it's not unlikely to get the latter if you're patient enough. (My advice is to enable anonymous reviewing. I don't know about a lot of other people, but most of my concrit comes from people who leave unsigned reviews.)

But to tell you the truth, I think you'll be more likely to get concrit from a forum. I can't really explain why a fanfiction community's reviewers don't often leave good concrit, but FFNet's practically notorious for that sort of thing. *shrug*
I agree. It can be really hard work to get reviews on ff.net, particularly if you work in large fandoms (Harry Potter and Pokémon come to mind here), because there is simply a huge volume of stories for the writers to look at and read through (and thus review).

If you have a LiveJournal account, there are a lot of communities for various fandoms where you are more likely to get some decent concrit reviews. It could be worth exploring as an option.
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  #9656    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:34 PM).
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The "no revival after a month" rule has been here since the community's start. It's on nearly every forum I've been on. (And those are the "big" forums that are well-known.) So I'd like to think it shouldn't come as a big surprise.

I should always be prepared to be shocked by everything.

I was going to write more about this discussion, but you people took attention away from my eggs. *shakes fists*

*flounces*

Just, like, don't murder people, because I'm not going to be watching this unfold as it happens. So keep it clean, and hit people below the belt, because that's fun to watch/do.
  #9657    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:41 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Astinus:
Just, like, don't murder people, because I'm not going to be watching this unfold as it happens. So keep it clean, and hit people below the belt, because that's fun to watch/do.
What, us innocent people? Resort to violence? Never! Doesn't sound like us in the slightest... *hides boxing gloves*
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  #9658    
Old April 20th, 2009 (01:43 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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That's great, but I'm talking about the general public here. Your views don't necessarily agree with those of your entire audience.
Well, my story was never meant to suit everyone in the first place. In fact, I would say all of the fanfics I have ever written have gone out their way to not be mainstreamed (For worst or better in each case )
Quote:
..And yet, you're still wondering about reviews and whether or not you're getting something worthwile out of writing/feedback in general. (Yes, this comes from an earlier quote. If you'd like, I could go back and link to the post in which you said this.)
Yes, on forums, not FF.net. I think it is healthy to still wonder about reviews, and hope for at least one a chapter (at least in forums that allow bumping).

Quote:
The "no revival after a month" rule has been here since the community's start. It's on nearly every forum I've been on. (And those are the "big" forums that are well-known.) So I'd like to think it shouldn't come as a big surprise.
Most of the forums I go to simply don't have it (it's true most of them aren't pokemon ones) or at the very least they wave it in their fanfic sections given the nature of reading and reviewing (since sometimes catching a chapter before it is a month old can be tricky if readers have other things to do, and locking after some reviewer breaks the rule could shut out a author from adding more)
Quote:
It's whether or not you keep up with everyone around you in order to get the attention you want. It's basically like you're a puppy in a mass around a mother dog. If you're the runt of the litter, you'll get shoved out of the way by those who put themselves forward. In other words, what I'm talking about isn't so much a contest as it is just a survival-esque setting. *shrug*
*shrug* As far as FF.net goes I am not sure I would want to be running so fast to keep the masses dancing after my newest shiny bell. Even when I am updating fast it is about once a month. This seems to suit my target readers in the other fandoms there just fine, for what it is worth...
Quote:
If you have a LiveJournal account, there are a lot of communities for various fandoms where you are more likely to get some decent concrit reviews. It could be worth exploring as an option.
I tried it a few times but for some reason posting a fanfic there always felt like spamming to me, odd I know. I guess of all the places to post fanfic, LJ feels the most 'in-crowdish' to me, even if it is not..I almost feel like someone is going to require I walk across coals before they give feedback...

Here is a good question for everyone:

Quote:
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
By the by on this subject, I have heard of a well known fandom author in another fandom who basically used the fandom versions of well known canon characters in an actual published book series and is getting awards on the one hand and flames on the other....
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  #9659    
Old April 20th, 2009 (02:27 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by An-chan.
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Quote originally posted by celuthea:
If you have a LiveJournal account, there are a lot of communities for various fandoms where you are more likely to get some decent concrit reviews. It could be worth exploring as an option.
I've been searching ones for quite some time now, but all I seem to find is either slash or stupid pairings I don't care about :< Life is so very hard sometimes! I can't find a decent plaxe to grace with the awesomeness that is my fanfiction! Seesh. *frown*

Actually, my problem is that I feel like a noob for a long time. I don't feel like one here anymore, but I'm pretty sure if I start conquering new places, I'll resort back to looking other people as better and mightier beings than I am. It takes me ages to get rid of that "I'm sorry to disturb you"-feeling. I wonder what's wrong with me. That has nothing to do with this, though, so let's move on.

You know, this conversation really has gotten me thinking... In favor of reviews, maybe the one-month rule should be changed. Maybe, in case of fanfiction, the limit could be a bit longer... Because Orange Flaaffy is right, it might be hard to review the fic in time. Especially if it's a one-shot, because basically it can't be bumped, then, ever. When month has passed, no-one can thouch the thread, but it still feels stupid to re-post it. Not that I think that's a big problem or anything... I don't really have any opinion on the limit, but it might be more covenient to have a longer limit. Maybe. Or then it'll result in countless, pointless and senseless thread revivals. "OMG THIS FIC IS STILL SO GOOD!!111 9/10 like last time!!111"

I don't know.

Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
(since sometimes catching a chapter before it is a month old can be tricky if readers have other things to do, and locking after some reviewer breaks the rule could shut out a author from adding more)
The thread doesn't get locked if the author is still active. I reckon that if the fic hasn't been updated in a year, it's concidered to be dicontinued by the author. Anyway, the rules state that if the author of the fic is still active, it doesn't get closed. Additionally, the locking can be undone by mods. Astinus is so friendly you can always ask her.

Quote originally posted by Astinus:
I was going to write more about this discussion, but you people took attention away from my eggs. *shakes fists*

*flounces*

Just, like, don't murder people, because I'm not going to be watching this unfold as it happens. So keep it clean, and hit people below the belt, because that's fun to watch/do.
...Or maybe not. Your contradictions confuse me, Astinus. How can we keep it clean and still hit people below the belt? Isn't that... you know... not keeping it clean?

Eggs, cows, and baby Sims. They all make for a great lunch, huh?

Quote:
*shrug* As far as FF.net goes I am not sure I would want to be running so fast to keep the masses dancing after my newest shiny bell. Even when I am updating fast it is about once a month. This seems to suit my target readers in the other fandoms there just fine, for what it is worth...
I also update once in a month. That's probably why I don't really have much reviews. Now, you can go and view the sea of fics currently on the first page of PFF&P. Can you see Mama's Boy? It's not on the second page, either, and it hasn't even been a month since I updated it. It stays on the first page for about half a day, and then it swims down to the deeper waters... Any new readers I want to get I need to get during that half day. I also already have two pages of text, so my chances of getting brand new, shiny readers is getting slimmer by the minute.

You never know how many target readers you could have.

Not that updating once a month is bad or anything, but in an environment like this, the fics that are updated rarely just simply fall off the first few pages and thus escape the sight of possible readers.

This reminds me that I should update soon.

...Actually, I have no idea what kind of target group I have.

Quote:
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
Hopes...? Hmm, I don't know. I believe that my fics will get buried in the mass that is Pokémon Fanfiction here on PC like any other fic. Of course, I do kinf of hope that people would like them and comment them and maybe sometimes refer to them, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm not really very ambitious with fanfiction, even though I am very, very ambitious with writing overall. I do this for fun, not for fame. I also do this to
1) learn English
2) learn general writing skills,
both of which will be very important for me later in life. I really want to be a professional writer, so this is useful as well as fun.
For my best fanfiction, a title currently held by Mama's Boy but that will be snatched away in not too distant future, I have absolutely no plans. So, there you have it.
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  #9660    
Old April 20th, 2009 (02:36 PM).
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You never know how many target readers you could have.
That's true, I've been with FF.net and had the same penname since '98 and the speed of things still gets to me. I guess I am just old *lol* I'm not much for the race and so I don't catch some like minded people. I think the best I can do is just write (and finish!) stories and hope for the best. After all, the internet always surprises you .
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  #9661    
Old April 20th, 2009 (02:41 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
Well, my story was never meant to suit everyone in the first place.
Not quite my point. To first clarify if this is a point of confusion: I did not mean everyone on the internet. I meant "everyone into Pokemorphs like you are."

That said, still, the point I was trying to make is that your opinions are your opinions. They're not everyone's, and not everyone is going to think every other fic you're comparing yours to (which is why we're having this discussion, if you'd like to go back a couple posts) is unreadable. Tons of people see tons of fic on FFNet as readable, hence why those fics get reviews. It's not your place to say every other fic is essentially unreadable (or crap). Not here, at least. If you want to say that, go review them. Otherwise, you can't really say that on a general thread because you're basically openly insulting everyone else who writes in the same basic genre. Don't be hypocritical and say you're speaking for the entirety of the people looking at the genre (particularly after accusing me of doing the same for this entire forum).

Quote:
I think it is healthy to still wonder about reviews,
Wonder, yes. Expect us to review something we can't touch without getting in trouble, no. There's ways set up to get reviews -- not only the Fanfiction Announcement Thread but also the Trading Center -- so if we don't respond, your best bet is to actually update and use what we've got for you, rather than, as you were doing earlier, blaming the members of the forum on the lack of attention you're receiving. Yes, I'm being blunt here, and if I'm coming off as overly rude, I apologize. However, the fact of the matter is you're expecting a lot from us, and that's not good.

Quote:
Most of the forums I go to simply don't have it (it's true most of them aren't pokemon ones) or at the very least they wave it in their fanfic sections given the nature of reading and reviewing (since sometimes catching a chapter before it is a month old can be tricky if readers have other things to do, and locking after some reviewer breaks the rule could shut out a author from adding more)
A point to glean from this is you'll want to keep in mind the rules of every community you go to. "They changed while I was gone" is not an excuse, and "that's not how it's done elsewhere" isn't either. (I'm guessing you realize this, but I'm just saying.) If you've been gone for awhile, reread the rules thread as if you're a newbie because no one's immune to how things work.
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  #9662    
Old April 20th, 2009 (03:22 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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However, the fact of the matter is you're expecting a lot from us, and that's not good.
It's nice to see PC being so active and talking about the topic of writing . You've met my exceptions actually .

Quote:
If you want to say that, go review them.
I would, but certain people within the group say it for for me most of the time . I'd rather not just be an echo...
Quote:
That said, still, the point I was trying to make is that your opinions are your opinions. They're not everyone's, and not everyone is going to think every other fic you're comparing yours to (which is why we're having this discussion, if you'd like to go back a couple posts) is unreadable.
Of course all of them aren't, but many of them are, next to not just my fic, but many respected fics of people that write the same theme (aka my pov on the matter is not just mine, but I am not going to name names). It has its' own stereotypes, just as other types of fic do, and of course they don't apply to every story, but those that do outnumber those that are more seasoned to trying other elements in the basic plots (or using the stereotypes in an interesting way)...
I'm not talking about every fan of the type of fic, but rather a certain group... Of course this doesn't make those fics totally unreadable, but it doesn't get them read by the group I'm thinking of ether...
Of course there are other readers beyond this group , ' into Pokemorphs like me' but I give up trying to please them from the get go. There are plenty of other fanfics for them to enjoy if they want to and they think certain ideas are the best thing ever. I still now and then get a new reader anyway, (without the stars needing to aline under a blue moon) and that one is fine. . Like I said, with FF.net I'm really not about mass appeal anymore, and just don't see it as a game of survival against every other fic of its type...
Quote:
Wonder, yes. Expect us to review something we can't touch without getting in trouble, no.
For the last time, I forgot/didn't know (Yes it is a mix)! I still think that, in the case of fanfic, it does more harm than good for everyone's stories in terms of reviews...
Quote:
Yes, I'm being blunt here, and if I'm coming off as overly rude, I apologize
At this point I think so, I was trying to change the subject :\.

Quote:
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
Quote:
Hopes...? Hmm, I don't know. I believe that my fics will get buried in the mass that is Pokémon Fanfiction here on PC like any other fic. Of course, I do kinf of hope that people would like them and comment them and maybe sometimes refer to them, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm not really very ambitious with fanfiction, even though I am very, very ambitious with writing overall. I do this for fun, not for fame
Still, you could say that your writing might still get buried even after it is published. Hmmm...Of course, regardless of if you are a famous author, if you are published and sell a reasonable amount, your book would still be out there getting read *somewhere*...I use to wonder where the books I read had been and who they belonged to other the years...Online text just doesn't seem to have the same sort of staying power by nature...
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Old April 20th, 2009 (05:11 PM).
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ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH long post of doom. Seriously, I don't think there's that much I can add to that particular topic as it seems to have touched most aspects that interest me. Why is it that usually stuff happens here AFTER 2am my time, and seems to stop before I go back on the computer?

Umm....

What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Umm... my main hopes for my fic is basically to have it finished, actually, however long that may take. I'd like it if people also like it until the end and all, but I mainly do it for myself and the fun of it. After it... well, frankly, I don't really know too much. I hope that after I'll be able to look back on it and be glad with what I did - otherwise, I'm slightly unsure by what exactly is the question here, really... after its done, its done. If it somehow happens to get liked by a large amount of people and stay around for a while, yay then, but its not so much a hope I have for it as something that would be nice if it happened. (Note the 'if' XD).
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  #9664    
Old April 20th, 2009 (05:29 PM).
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What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Actually finishing would be fantastic, and then I can start putting out all the side stories I keep coming up with. *nods*
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  #9665    
Old April 20th, 2009 (05:29 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
I would, but certain people within the group say it for for me most of the time :). I'd rather not just be an echo...
My dear, if you've got something to say about a fanfiction, chances are, it does more harm than good to simply keep it to yourself, and it's not at all polite to blanket insult those authors on a public forum, rather than tell them how you feel directly to their faces.

Quote:
Of course all of them aren't, but many of them are,
Not everyone thinks the same way. Period. It's great that you've got an idea of what does and doesn't work for the genre, but those other fics get the reviews that they do for a reason: because other people do think they're readable. And regardless of whether or not your group of friends thinks the same, there's a lot of people reviewing these fics with praise. If you disagree, go review them rather than talk crap about their fics without naming names.

It's rather annoying and frustrating to see that you seem to put your fanfiction on a pedestal. Sure, you say it has cliches, but you're also saying that it's more readable than anything else in the genre. At the same time, you seem afraid to comment on someone else's work because you're afraid it'll be an echo.

Let me say one thing about that: if you don't like something that's going on with a genre or if you don't like a story, chances are, the author won't know about it until you say something. FFNet's full of new writers. They don't know what is and isn't kosher; they simply see other fics like theirs and think what they're doing is okay. If all they get is praise, they'll keep doing what they do without fixing their mistakes. If they just get one voice of concrit and tons of praise, they'll think the one voice doesn't know what they're talking about. If they get a few voices, it might pass through, but chances are, it still won't. If they get enough voices telling them they're doing something stupid (in polite words), they'll either give up or, if they actually care at all about writing, try to improve.

There's no reason why you should hold back except if you're compensating for your own fic. I say compensating because when you get out there and actually leave decent reviews, you start to look at your own work with a more critical eye. You're leaving yourself open to getting reviewed in return, so you end up looking carefully at your work and realizing it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread to brace yourself for someone just like you to give you the kinds of reviews you left.

But in general, I'd hate to say it, but "I don't want to sound like an echo" =/= a good excuse. If you don't like it, rather than trash talk the genre behind its back, go out there and tell the authors to their face exactly how you feel.

Otherwise, you don't come off as particularly friendly right now by putting your own work on a pedestal but refusing to say why someone else's isn't up to par. (Yes, you said it here, but you're preaching to the wrong choir.)

Quote:
For the last time, I forgot/didn't know (Yes it is a mix)! :(
The rules are in a sticky. Not beating it into your head or anything here. I'm saying we can't review because we can't review, so please stop expecting us to. In other words, emphasizing an issue that keeps popping up.

Quote:
I still think that, in the case of fanfic, it does more harm than good for everyone's stories in terms of reviews...
Except for one thing: if an author's fic has been dead for a year, chances are, the author isn't active anymore. Basically, here, you're saying it's productive to review a work, only to have the original poster never see it because they don't visit the site anymore or have moved onto other projects.

That's really the thing about update frequency and what it tells the readers as well. Untouched stories that have gone inactive for more than a month usually tell the potential audience that it's dead for a reason. Numbers of authors around here leave stories unfinished (as I've said before) but move on to something else because they don't like the story they were working on. There's absolutely no way to know whether or not the story is actually active unless the author actually posts a new chapter, so most people will automatically think that if it's gone for so long without the author so much as saying a peep about it, it's one of those abandoned works that the author doesn't care about anymore (if the author hasn't simply up and left altogether).

In other words, yes, it makes sense because it automatically bars us from replying to a dead project. We've got better things to do than to offer advice to a fic when the author is either not even on the community anymore or has improved and is showing that through newer work. It's not productive to take a risk, put effort into a review, and leave it where we're not sure if the author will actually see it and can use our feedback.

Quote:
At this point I think so, I was trying to change the subject :\.
How many times were you taking a condescending attitude towards me and insulting the general public? Hey, at least I openly admit that I'm getting annoyed.

And change of subject or not, you responded, so I replied. Sorry, but you can't really shepherd me into simply ignoring a response and avoid a subject unless you're saying something particularly illogical.
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  #9666    
Old April 20th, 2009 (06:43 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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There's no reason why you should hold back except if you're compensating for your own fic. I say compensating because when you get out there and actually leave decent reviews, you start to look at your own work with a more critical eye. You're leaving yourself open to getting reviewed in return, so you end up looking carefully at your work and realizing it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread to brace yourself for someone just like you to give you the kinds of reviews you left.
That's not the reason, and I would rather not say what my reasoning is (and please, I know very well your feelings on my doing this, I remember very well what you said last time we talked and how angry it (and how I reply to what you say) makes you. I am very sorry.).. But it is not because I think my fic is the best thing since sliced bread, or have fear of reviews in return. If that was the case I would have never come on the internet at all in the first place. I will only say I don't hate the general public as a whole no matter what I say here (where I am mostly simply venting), and that
Quote:
My dear, if you've got something to say about a fanfiction, chances are, it does more harm than good to simply keep it to yourself, and it's not at all polite to blanket insult those authors on a public forum, rather than tell them how you feel directly to their faces.
what I said was truly no worst than such comments made by many others over and over again in other fanfic forums (and even this one) about everything from journey fics to mary sues, by well known authors and otherwise.

I quit on the subjects, both of them. It is not mature to do so, as I understand the unspoken laws of forum debate, but I just do. Believe what you want, you win, etc...
*goes back to answering writing questions posted earlier*
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  #9667    
Old April 20th, 2009 (06:59 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
what I said was truly no worst than such comments made by many others over and over again in other fanfic forums (and even this one) about everything from journey fics to mary sues, by well known authors and otherwise.
Actually, in a sense, what you're doing is because you're not actually telling the proper people what they're doing wrong to their face. As a result, you're basically making fun of them behind their backs. I don't know what your actual reasoning is, but to tell you the truth, I don't believe there's a valid reason to do something like that to a person when it comes to their work. If you sit through an entire fanfiction and think it's utter crap, you just owe it to yourself and the author who's looking to improve to actually say something about it -- even a short paragraph to tell them how they're doing. (Especially if you expect the same treatment back.)

Not to mention are you saying that if someone else trash talks someone's work without actually directly telling the author how they're doing, it's perfectly okay for you to do it too?

Given that you're adamant on changing the subject, you can consider that a rhetorical question.
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  #9668    
Old April 20th, 2009 (07:16 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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Quote:
Not to mention are you saying that if someone else trash talks someone's work without actually directly telling the author how they're doing, it's perfectly okay for you to do it too?
I am not sure really, I don't think of it as trash talk exactly honestly. On the one hand, can talking about how certain elements often have been written to death and often badly and in many many fanfics (a topic on many forums) on ff. net be called talking about a single authors fanfic badly behind their back?

Quote:
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Umm... my main hopes for my fic is basically to have it finished, actually, however long that may take. I'd like it if people also like it until the end and all, but I mainly do it for myself and the fun of it. After it... well, frankly, I don't really know too much. I hope that after I'll be able to look back on it and be glad with what I did - otherwise, I'm slightly unsure by what exactly is the question here, really... after its done, its done. If it somehow happens to get liked by a large amount of people and stay around for a while, yay then, but its not so much a hope I have for it as something that would be nice if it happened. (Note the 'if' XD).
Finishing is in of it self something to be proud of, I agree . Finished fics are very enjoyable to read IMHO
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What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?

Actually finishing would be fantastic, and then I can start putting out all the side stories I keep coming up with. *nods*
Good for you, keep going :D!
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  #9669    
Old April 20th, 2009 (07:40 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
On the one hand, can talking about how certain elements often have been written to death and often badly and in many many fanfics (a topic on many forums) on ff. net be called talking about a single authors fanfic badly behind their back?
As a note, I realize this question is about FFNet, but given that you either mean in reviews (which is directly to the author, not behind their backs) or via forums (which is basically the same as trash talking someone on FFNet through PC), I'm just going to make something about PC's fanfiction comm clear. I have no problem with a general guide that addresses more than one archive (like Thesis's OT guide) because that makes an effort to address problems that don't just appear in one archive. In other words, the difference between what Thesis is doing and what you're doing is basically Thesis has no one in particular in mind when he wrote his guide. (In your posts, meanwhile, you did, especially the part where you talk about a certain group of people.*)

On top of that, usually, these guides are written for the sole purpose of actually trying to teach the community how to avoid using cliches. It's not simply talking about them or insulting a group of fics. It's actually making an effort to change what's going on in a genre by highlighting problems and offering examples for why it's not a good idea and how to avoid doing them.

Additionally, if you're talking about the majority of fics in a community but make no effort to actually go out and say address something to them about it, then yes. While I agree there's cliches, at least if I spot one, I make sure to tell the author about it. It's fair, especially when I expect the same treatment back. In other words, another difference between what people who write those guides do and what you're saying is that the people who write those guides are often also reviewers who open themselves up to working with other people.

Put simply, if you don't actually review but literally say that a large number of fics in a certain genre of a certain community is unreadable**, then it's not fair and can be considered talking crap. If you take the time to work with the people of a community and then maybe compile a list of things for the purpose of actually teaching a group what is and isn't a good idea, then it's not talking crap.

Or, even shorter put, whether or not talking about this (as a general subject) can be considered trash talking depends on how it's said and what the intent is.

Footnotes:
* For easier reading:

Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
I'm not talking about every fan of the type of fic, but rather a certain group...
Of course, it's also fairly ambiguous as to whether or not you mean your friends or the people you're referring to.

** Also quoted from an earlier post:

Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
And actually, no there are not that many readable Pokemorph fics .
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  #9670    
Old April 20th, 2009 (08:09 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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I agree that I said that there aren't that many good fics of a certain type (I don't deny that). If that is trash talking,so be it, but I still say I have seen such feelings everywhere from forums to LJ, from all sorts of members, in a format that is not limited to the helpful guides, or at all polite words only posted as reviews to the fanfics in question (by older members and others alike). Does that make it right? Most likely not, but there it is, and has always been in fandom...
Quote:
Of course, it's also fairly ambiguous as to whether or not you mean your friends or the people you're referring to.
I don't know them outside the internet, so they aren't friends in that sense, but I did mean other readers/writers I know that share a certain taste, not anyone else...

There is already a guide, in another community I belong to, on the subject of writing pokemorphs. I would rather not repeat it here, as it is written just fine where it is . I could ask the author if she would like to post it here, if anyone would be interested .

Quote:
What are your hopes for your best fanfic (ether written or yet to be) in the long run? After it is finished?
Like others what I want to do most of all is finish. Even though I do wonder about the lifespan of a fanfic after the fact I don't put any stock in ever thinking any of my fic will live forever. But on the off chance someone does read it again years later, I would like the story they find to be a whole story ..
(I do, however, wonder how long sites like FF.net will stay online O.o. So much of everyones writing is recorded there and only there, it would be a shame to lose it...)
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  #9671    
Old April 20th, 2009 (08:34 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
Most likely not, but there it is, and has always been in fandom...
At the risk of being tasteless, if a number of people punched everyone else in the face, does that mean that gives you the right to do it too?

The point of the argument I was making was not whether or not everyone else trash talked authors behind their backs but whether or not you should use that as an excuse to mimic their behavior (whether or not you think your way of doing it is milder). It's heavily ironic to do so, considering you were condemning continuing on this subject as immature a few posts earlier when the subject itself is the question of whether or not playing sheep to the viciousness of fandom (particularly without reviewing) is a mature and fair act to begin with.

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There is already a guide, in another community I belong to, on the subject of writing pokemorphs.
...Out of sheer and honest curiosity, exactly what does this have to do with my post? =/ I brought up the subject of guides in general, but I didn't say there should be a guide to Pokemorphs. And even then, it really doesn't matter if someone else wrote a guide. I wrote a guide to reviewing for PC, knowing full well that Serebii's got their own guide. That really didn't stop me, partly because I know not everyone goes to Serebii and reads the stuff they have in their fanfiction forum.
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  #9672    
Old April 20th, 2009 (08:59 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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Quote:
considering you were condemning continuing on this subject as immature a few posts earlier
I was saying suddenly wanting to stop the debate and just agree to degree was often as an unspoken rule thought of as immature in online debate and that I did not care and just wanted to stop it and change the subject anyway.
Quote:
...Out of sheer and honest curiosity, exactly what does this have to do with my post? =/ I brought up the subject of guides in general, but I didn't say there should be a guide to Pokemorphs. And even then, it really doesn't matter if someone else wrote a guide. I wrote a guide to reviewing for PC, knowing full well that Serebii's got their own guide. That really didn't stop me, partly because I know not everyone goes to Serebii and reads the stuff they have in their fanfiction forum.
It seemed like you were suggesting if I had something to say it was best said in a guide format with the support of a community behind it to add points. I was just saying I feel that there is already a guide that says just about everything I ever would wish to, in much more detail than I ever could given time and other issues...I don't want to basically rewrite whats already been said to help, when the first time did it just fine, and is still there for everyone .
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  #9673    
Old April 20th, 2009 (09:14 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Orange_Flaaffy:
It seemed like you were suggesting if I had something to say it was best said in a guide format with the support of a community behind it to add points.
Actually, no, what I've been saying for the past several posts was that if you had something to say, you say it to the right audience, period. For the most part, I'm saying you do this in reviews first and build up the credentials that don't make people want to blow you off if you try to do a guide. (As in, if people don't know you, and you go to write a guide, people may initially wonder if you know what you're talking about.)

In fact, at no point did I mean to suggest that you should write a guide. Not saying that you yourself lack the credentials to do it. Frankly, it's not my place to say whether or not you do. However, a guide takes a lot of time and effort (even if people give you feedback on it), and you need to know exactly what audience to address and how to say things in order to get your point across effectively. If anything, I wouldn't actually recommend doing a guide at all unless you were absolutely certain you knew what you were doing in the first place.
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  #9674    
Old April 20th, 2009 (09:23 PM). Edited April 20th, 2009 by Orange_Flaaffy.
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Moving on to other topics...

I always wondered how Farfetch'd is *hatched* with a leek. Maybe it really isn't a normal leek but somehow a disconnected part of its' body?
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  #9675    
Old April 20th, 2009 (10:13 PM).
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It's its umbilical cord.

xD

Just throwing ideas out there.
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