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  #9851    
Old May 17th, 2009 (04:06 PM).
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So... minichallenge? 7k words sounds nice. What I'm more interested right now is the trigger- I think it will be decisive to overcome my current WritersBlock.

txt, I'm sorry to hear about what happener to your Mastermind, a story that I found just one month ago.
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  #9852    
Old May 18th, 2009 (06:10 PM).
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txt, I'm sorry to hear about what happener to your Mastermind, a story that I found just one month ago.
Meh, it's nobody's fault but mine, really. It might even make me write faster. Wouldn't that be a trip?
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Old May 18th, 2009 (11:22 PM).
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Meh, it's nobody's fault but mine, really. It might even make me write faster. Wouldn't that be a trip?
Indeed. You're starting to trip me out there just with the mere idea. Dude. But may you get some progress donw on your fic now and all, I suppose. =)
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Old May 19th, 2009 (03:29 PM). Edited May 19th, 2009 by Bay Alexison.
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Guys, I got a quick question. How you think a Pokemon's type is determined? For instance, why would a Lucario be a Steel and Fighting type? Is it biological or something else?

Reason I asked this is because the OT fic I'm planning is going to be loosely based off the Delta Species card series and on those decks a lot of Pokemon are categorized into a different type than they're usually are (for instance a water type Togetic card). I'm thinking of Team Rocket some way able to change a Pokemon's type based on info from Holon (the region setting of the Delta Species cards). Also, as to why Team Rocket is because I'm going to have the fic set at Johto (I blame HGSS news XD; )

If you're wondering, no you don't need to know too much about the card games I mentioned. In short, all you need to know is Team Rocket is going to try some way to messed up a Pokemon's type. XD;
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Old May 19th, 2009 (04:26 PM).
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Wellll, a Pokemon evolves to adapt like any normal living creature in our world. Riolu may not have been tough enough (the little guy probably has tons of people wanting to take advantage of his still-growing aura ability), so he gained a steel typing to better defend himself. [/lousyanswer]

(A better example would be the Eeveelutions, but I'll end up droning xD)
  #9856    
Old May 19th, 2009 (06:05 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Bay:
Guys, I got a quick question. How you think a Pokemon's type is determined?
I tend to think it's biological. *Lanee's theory for Darwin-esque evolution is part of it, where the younger forms like Azurill might gain/change types through Pokémon evolution to either better defend themselves against threats or based completely on environment. (For example, Steel-types might have better resistances to the weather/harsh climates in general, so if a Lucario trained in harsh conditions, Riolu would need to gain that extra type in order to better adapt.) For Pokémon that don't change type, it's probably just an affinity related to environment, need, or just basic body structure. (Like how Starly's a Normal/Flying because it's an ordinary bird. With wings. And therefore the ability to control wind.)

Incidentally, haven't forgotten about the challenge. I've read over the suggestions, and basically, this is what I'm planning:

Format
Seven-day (Midnight Sunday -> 11:59 PM Saturday -- either your local time or mine) challenge in which writers need to get 7k+ words down before midnight each Sunday.

Genre
Pretty much all-genres, any canon you want. All of them need to be Pokémon fics, however. (I'm not entirely sure it'd be easier to force people into one set canon, Feign. Some people are a bit more comfortable writing in mangaverse as opposed to gameverse, for example. So, I figure if you can figure out what works for you, feel free.)

Prompts?
To be honest, I'm not sure about this one. It'd be helpful, but I'm thinking maybe it should be optional so we don't end up like the Fanfiction Challenges and just so we have a bit more freedom.

Threads
There will, of course, be a discussion thread to post in for when you should be doing your speed challenge. I'm thinking we could also post links to our work there, and the first/second post can list entries. It'll probably end up in the main forum. Maybe.

Also, yeah, you'd get to put your submissions in your own threads. There will be shiny tags to put in your titles.

Y/N? Suggestions?
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  #9857    
Old May 19th, 2009 (06:23 PM). Edited May 19th, 2009 by solovino.
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The developers did it.

No, wait...

Given that Pokémon entities are strongly typed as far back as Arceus + plates, I'd say that the differentiation between types is a projected attribute around a Pokémon's better compatibility with certain kind of energies in the hierarchy of energy in the Pokémon world. In pretty much the same way there is a distinction of primary elemental forces in our world, ranging from gravity - the weakest but more encompassing - to weak/strong nuclear energy, and how some natural constructs seem to be better designed to operate via a specific kind of energy (for example, orientation systems in organic beings seems to be more energy-efficient when related to gravity, as can be seen with cats, locust and large mammals, whereas when precision is required, electromagnetic dependance seems to be the best option, as demonstrated by birds).

The key difference is that unlike our universe, the hierarchy of energy in the Pokémon world is non-pyramidal, and not based on strength to begin with. Some of these distinctions may stem from the driving of energy (Psychic, Dark, Electric), whereas some others may be simply the result of adaptions in organic (Pokémon-wise) systems (such as Ground, Flying and Grass).

If we take the idea that Mew = Ancestor, Pokémon with different types may be an adaption of different Mew offspring to better handle such kind of energies when interacting with each other. That may lead to some Pokémon to become "two-typed". Some Pokémon may take a role in nature that, upon evolution, requires them to be even more fit to a certain kind of energy containment or manipulation, thus they may gain or drop a type. Looking carefully, evolutionary lines where type changes do occur are ones where the change itself is essentially induced by an external agent (Stones, etc), although the evolutionary lines involving large-system adaption seem to be excempt from this: see Charizard/Salamence (gain Flying), for example.

Then again, I may have got the thing backwards and typing is a manifestation of these energies that by itself shapes Pokémon design and evolution when it defines a purpose, which may be like saying that Mew descendants adapted because they were affected by typing. Look at Celebi, who can travel through time and seems to have no further purpose than to represent and protect flora: there is no apparent reason for the Psychic type to be there (it could have been Water or Ground, for that matter), at least I don't see how psychic power is required for time-travel. But maybe the particular need to protect flora across time and to therefore gather a large amount of information this way leads to the Psychic type gaining prominence at the moment of "design" of this particular species.

Or I am just rambling, which wouldn't be so strange to begin with.

Either way, I think "typing" is not as much a biological differentiation as a design one, where the organism is seen as of a certain type because it is more fit to handle a certain kind of primal, distinct and well defined energy source or manipulation that was there to begin with.

EDIT: Dang it! After all my rant, I was ninjaed by Valentine who wrote the opposite, sort of. Whatever. I support the idea of the thread, and I thing the format is OK, whereas I still think a trigger of sorts would be welcome.
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  #9858    
Old May 20th, 2009 (01:44 AM).
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I'm not entirely sure it'd be easier to force people into one set canon, Feign. Some people are a bit more comfortable writing in mangaverse as opposed to gameverse, for example.
There's also the matter that sometimes, a prompt calls for a character from a particular universe. Sometimes, an author sees a prompt, and it automatically speaks to them in the voice of a particular character who is only seen in one part of the universe, or the particular personality of a multi-verse character that is only in one particular universe.

Now, in this moment, I am going to admit my ignorance on all knowledge of writing, and admit that I'm still a bit confused on the qualities that make a character a Sue. This is further explained by actually mentioning my problem.

My main character is just a basic trainer. She doesn't do anything special. She has no special qualities to her that make her even come off as a Sue. My one problem is that the plot of the fic I'm currently writing about her has her meet a "Legendary" Pokemon (Legendary is in quotes because it is not any one of the actually Legendary mythological Pokemon, but is the human-created Mewtwo). And the meeting is not one that makes her a Chosen One, where afterward she has to save the world from any sort of danger.

So I guess what my question can be is if meeting a Legendary one-of-a-kind Pokemon is an automatic sign that the character is a Sue. I would like to say "No", because previous readings have lead me to believe it, but I figure that right now I am looking for reassurance and advice. (I also say "No", because I know that my plot doesn't call for my character to be a Chosen One, so I know she is safe, but [future] readers don't know that.)
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Old May 20th, 2009 (01:47 AM).
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I wouldn't think so.

Not if she doesn't go all "I will save the world!" after it.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (04:23 AM).
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I'm inclined to agree - meeting a legendary Pokemon doesn't make for a Mary Sue. It's just one of the things Mary Sues tend to do, methinks. Given the descriptionn of the plans you have for her, seems fine to me. =) 'Course, you have to be careful with it and all. *shot for stating the obvious*

I had some weird ideas recently, heh. One even involves a guy with a split personality. Of course, I wouldn't know how to go about that exactly. XD Not that I have too much time to write right at the moment.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (07:14 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Valentine:
I'm not entirely sure it'd be easier to force people into one set canon, Feign. Some people are a bit more comfortable writing in mangaverse as opposed to gameverse, for example. So, I figure if you can figure out what works for you, feel free.
That's no problem

The only thing is that I wouldn't want to see the fic turn into a Pokemorph story... >.>

For the Legendary Pokemon thing, to make it less coincidental, one could write it where, it was the Legendary instigating the meeting, or it was a chance encounter. Instead of something like "I'm going to search for every legendary Pokemon." hence the legendariness. Or you could also take its pokedex into account, like how Articuno saves people in danger in rough winter storms in the mountains. Which further legitimizes the use of a Legendary.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (08:04 AM).
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Yeah, I don't think meeting a Legendary would make a character a Sue. As long as the plot doesn't have the Legendary be all following the Chosen One and such, you should do fine.

In that Delta Species fic I mentioned earlier, I'm actually thinking about main characters to meeting up with a Legendary by chance and then all of a sudden they have to save it from Team Rocket capturing it again (the Legendary was caught before but then broke out). Think Pokemon Chronicles. XD
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Old May 20th, 2009 (01:54 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Astinus:
There's also the matter that sometimes, a prompt calls for a character from a particular universe. Sometimes, an author sees a prompt, and it automatically speaks to them in the voice of a particular character who is only seen in one part of the universe, or the particular personality of a multi-verse character that is only in one particular universe.
Also a good point, which is probably why both prompts and canon restrictions will probably be completely optional. It's just easier than saying, "Okay, write a fic in the anime universe. Your prompt is orange."

About the Sue, going to have to agree with the others, and this is mostly why:

Quote:
She doesn't do anything special. She has no special qualities to her that make her even come off as a Sue. ... And the meeting is not one that makes her a Chosen One, where afterward she has to save the world from any sort of danger.
Really, the basic definition of a Sue is any character that suspends logic and canon and bends the laws of reality (whatever they may be for that particular universe) for the sake of being awesome/getting his or her way. The reason why legendary sightings tend to be red flags isn't so much the fact that the legendary is sighted in the first place as it is what happens after. Legendaries tend to be marks of super special characters. Writers insert legends either to explicitly make their main characters become Chosen Ones or to symbolize that this trainer will soon become one. In other words, in the hands of most writers, legends are God, and the characters? Jesus.

(Excuse me while I die in hellfire for implying that Jesus Christ was a Gary Stu.)

Anyway, the point is if you don't have a character who ends up becoming the Chosen One or otherwise overly *~*~*special*~*~* in one way or another, then what you're doing isn't a Mary Sue. Rather, it's more like an averted trope, I think, where the reader expects a Mary Sue when the legend appears, but it just doesn't happen. It's clever, not cringe-worthy.

'Course, you'd have to make it clear that you're not heading down the Chosen One kind of path as well. Parodies tend to do this by having this kind of character exist in the foreground with a Chosen One running around in the background, but in a serious fic, just emphasizing the idea that there's no room for a Chosen One in the legends of the region should do.

Quote originally posted by bobandbill:
I had some weird ideas recently, heh. One even involves a guy with a split personality. Of course, I wouldn't know how to go about that exactly. XD
Metric **** ton of research. Google is awesome. (I tried to do a DID fic awhile ago, but then I sort of wandered off because something else was shiny. So, yeah, I know there's a bunch of websites that just take some awesome Google-fu to get to and which will totally help you figure out how DID would be presented. Unfortunately, I lost the links, so I can't help you there. If all else fails, try Little Details.)

If you want to see DID done well in fiction, though, I tend to like plugging Kagerou: An Electric Manga. But that's also because I'm a fangirl.

Quote originally posted by Feign:
The only thing is that I wouldn't want to see the fic turn into a Pokemorph story... >.>
XD Well, it won't be like the Serial Game or An Exquisite Corpse if that's what you're worried about. Everyone will get to write their own, separate fanfics of a certain length within a certain time frame. If we do get Pokémorph stories, yeah, that'd be only slightly amusing (and impressive for only 7k words), but you don't really have to write that kind of storyline if you don't want to.
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  #9864    
Old May 20th, 2009 (02:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Valentine:

Metric **** ton of research. Google is awesome. (I tried to do a DID fic awhile ago, but then I sort of wandered off because something else was shiny. So, yeah, I know there's a bunch of websites that just take some awesome Google-fu to get to and which will totally help you figure out how DID would be presented. Unfortunately, I lost the links, so I can't help you there. If all else fails, try Little Details.)
Also there are a couple true to life stories about people with a multiple personality disorder, I forget what its called, but this woman thought she was only 1 person, but was in effect 2 people. It was an older film, I think the character had the last name white or grey? In some cases it is not too hard to write a story with someone with MPD, but the explanation of a prompt or change would probably help... Also, because it is a medical condition, it is usually caused by a severely traumatizing event, which as a result shoot your PG rating to probably R.


Quote:
XD Well, it won't be like the Serial Game or An Exquisite Corpse if that's what you're worried about. Everyone will get to write their own, separate fanfics of a certain length within a certain time frame. If we do get Pokémorph stories, yeah, that'd be only slightly amusing (and impressive for only 7k words), but you don't really have to write that kind of storyline if you don't want to.
Lol yeah... I tried to turn it around to some extent... with little resultant success >.>

Hmm lol, I guess I had thought this too, was a Serial game type of thing (but slightly more organized, I guess I was wrong). I already have an idea for mine, so when can we start?
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Old May 20th, 2009 (03:04 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Feign:
Also there are a couple true to life stories about people with a multiple personality disorder, I forget what its called, but this woman thought she was only 1 person, but was in effect 2 people. It was an older film, I think the character had the last name white or grey?
You're probably thinking of The Three Faces of Eve, which told the story of "Eve White" (which, in turn, was a pseudonym). In that case, there were actually three personalities depicted in the film, and if I recall correctly, the real person had more. It's actually rather rare for people suffering from DID to form only two personalities. (I don't recall what the average is, but I think it's four or more. 'Course, it's also rare to have a large number of them as well.) But you're right in saying that a lot of the times, multiple personalities form as a coping mechanism in response to a traumatic or otherwise overly stressful event.

The reason why I really recommend researching DID and other personality disorders is because the media tends to fail at depicting psychology, even the films that claim to be true-to-life. (For example, either The Three Faces of Eve or Sybil, another book/film based on a patient with DID, faced controversy when the actual patient objected to the depiction of her disorder, if I recall correctly.) So, the way you might see it in media -- like with the cliché of good personality, bad personality -- might actually only be a glorification of one symptom or a very loose interpretation of a single set of symptoms.

(Sorry. Abnormal psych is still a strong interest of mine, among other weird smatterings of science. XD)
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  #9866    
Old May 20th, 2009 (04:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Valentine:
You're probably thinking of The Three Faces of Eve, which told the story of "Eve White" (which, in turn, was a pseudonym). In that case, there were actually three personalities depicted in the film, and if I recall correctly, the real person had more. It's actually rather rare for people suffering from DID to form only two personalities. (I don't recall what the average is, but I think it's four or more. 'Course, it's also rare to have a large number of them as well.) But you're right in saying that a lot of the times, multiple personalities form as a coping mechanism in response to a traumatic or otherwise overly stressful event.

The reason why I really recommend researching DID and other personality disorders is because the media tends to fail at depicting psychology, even the films that claim to be true-to-life. (For example, either The Three Faces of Eve or Sybil, another book/film based on a patient with DID, faced controversy when the actual patient objected to the depiction of her disorder, if I recall correctly.) So, the way you might see it in media -- like with the cliché of good personality, bad personality -- might actually only be a glorification of one symptom or a very loose interpretation of a single set of symptoms.

(Sorry. Abnormal psych is still a strong interest of mine, among other weird smatterings of science. XD)
Ah that's right, that was the movie. Yeah if I recall, the Eve lady had a further fear that had only surfaced later in her life, that was much more traumatizing than kissing the dead body.

Perhaps if one is serious about it though, they could just as well do a Golem/Smeagol approach.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (05:26 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Feign:
Perhaps if one is serious about it though, they could just as well do a Golem/Smeagol approach.
Smeagol's sanity was split in half by the effects of the One Ring, and even then, his symptoms seemed to me a bit more like general insanity than actual DID. Just as a side note.

Getting back to the point, yeah, if you can figure out how to avoid repeatedly traumatizing your character (i.e., giving them a reason they feel the need to adopt more than one personality), you might be able to pull off whittling down the set to two, but generally, it just doesn't really happen that often in actual psychology, probably because the patients who suffer from the disorder don't usually just endure one traumatic event. On the other hand, since we're working with the media, one could plausibly just stick to two personalities because that's the most recognizable form of the split personality concept. It really depends on what you need for the story and how obsessive about psychology you want to be.

Also as a side note, but I looked it up, and reportedly, the woman the Eve character was based on actually had over twenty personalities. So, yeah, the movie really toned down her disorder.
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  #9868    
Old May 20th, 2009 (07:49 PM).
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Hurrah for the need to research stuff before I actually get down to doing that, whenever that would be (a while later, at least). Wouldn't really have tried without knowing more on it though. XD Cheers for the links/discussion, shall be helpful. *favs links* Heh, the idea is also for an 'original' story rather than a fanfic for a change - most of my random, recent ideas fitted to the former.

Twenty personalities... that's a darn lot. =/ Doubt it'd be that easy to focus on each on either in a text and all, and two does seem to be the norm, probably for the sake of ease, the classic/cliche good/bad thing, and that two is a cool number that deserves more attention. =P Three's a good number too though.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (08:26 PM).
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In the two main one's looked at in the Eve story, her original personality was that of a reserved house wife. While her 2nd personality, was much more permiscious, like buying expensive items and going to night clubs. I think this was the 40s or 60s, so back then that would have meant a lot. So it doesn't have to be completely light and dark personalitys, almost just small things to consider.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (10:44 PM).
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I greatly appreciate the reassurance on my thoughts about my character. It has given me the boost I need to continue writing my fanfic without thoughts against it clouding my mind.

I do have one more question though. I have planned for a possible short story/multi-chaptered fic (I haven't decided) where my character (I know that it is possibly looked down upon to have the same main character in more than one fic, but she fills the plot I have for her, for they are all connected) has to save a town from a problem. I know that "saving the world" isn't a good thing, but is saving a town all right?

With this, I again figure I'm safe, but part of the reason behind my thoughts that it is all right is because of my doctrine. (My character saves the town because it's the "right thing to do", and she really doesn't want to [like, really really really doesn't want to], but is forced to, so I find her a better character than the Sues I used to see because those Sues seemed to really want to do all the saving.)

On the positive side, once this question is answered, then I won't have any more questions, for now.

I wish I could repay the help I have been given, but psychological disorders are something that I have little knowledge about, and is best left discussed by those who have the information.

I can offer my services to bobandbill if he needs them. Since Val mentioned a Livejournal community, Little Details, I can post to that community if you have a question about DID since I am a member, bobandbill. That is, if you can't find specific information, and would like it answered by a very helpful and knowledgeable community.
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Old May 20th, 2009 (11:08 PM). Edited May 20th, 2009 by Feign.
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Quote originally posted by Astinus:
I do have one more question though. I have planned for a possible short story/multi-chaptered fic (I haven't decided) where my character (I know that it is possibly looked down upon to have the same main character in more than one fic, but she fills the plot I have for her, for they are all connected) has to save a town from a problem. I know that "saving the world" isn't a good thing, but is saving a town all right?
I think the major things to keep in mind with something like this could be as follows:

- Make sure you develop your character either in situation or in personality to have some sort of motivation to help the town. Look at it this way, team rocket is bad (okay stupid bad), but they still help out *for their own reasons* as sometimes mentioned. On the other hand, Ash may help out either because he feels compelled to do so, or because he was the one that instigated the problem to begin with. So saying that, you can't really have some depressed reclusive sociopath decide to help out the town. Though I think you already knew that Oo lol

- Because it is a town, it would make sense that others would also help out (assuming that not everyone in the town was affected by x event). Though people from out of town could help. Making your character the only one doing the saving, sort of looks like the chosen one scenario. Again this is justified, if it is explained properly, but it looks like you won't be including it.

But yeah, as long as these conditions are met to make sense, then I'd say it would be totally justified.

Myself, I am still in the planning stages of a fic using anime canon, to some extent. I've always wanted to make a story that was darker than the TV shows, and somewhat more than the movies. And I'll be incorporating Aura, so the "chosen" thingy will go up a bit, but as long as it is properly explained, I think it should work.
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Old May 21st, 2009 (06:11 AM).
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Sues are really not so much about what the character does. Fear of Sues should not restrict possible fiction plots to ones where the main character does absolutely nothing remarkable. Ultimately, it's about whether the character feels like a Sue, and that depends more on how you write her and the other characters in the story than on precisely what the plot requires her to do. Why are Sues actually bad? Because they feel fake - something about how they're portrayed or how the world responds to them is just off. The Sue has stupefying luck that defies all laws of probability, or everybody magically loves her even though she's acted like a *****, or her past is ridiculously troubled without her showing the appropriate scars for it, or she makes men fall head over heels in love with her and leave their wives just by walking past them, or she has special powers that don't fit into the world - she doesn't work. She's not realistic. The rules of the world have been bent to accommodate her. The author's internal reality simulation, instead of taking the world and characters established to a logical conclusion, takes shortcuts by modifying the world or characters in the Sue's favor as the story goes along.

Does it make sense, within the context of your world, that somebody might meet Mewtwo the way she meets him? If so, then that happening cannot by itself make her a Sue. Does it make sense for her to save the village? Then she is no worse than any real person who has saved a village. I don't recall any particular story, but I'm sure there must be plenty of them.

There are remarkable people in the world. There are such things as heroes - there are people who have saved other people's lives. If such people realistically exist, they can't be Sues. The key is that even though they save other people's lives or are otherwise remarkable, they're still human - they make mistakes, it is not always convenient to be them, sometimes they're in a bad mood and yell at people who don't deserve it, they don't always save the day. As long as the character always comes across as realistically human and the world around them makes sense, it doesn't matter if they happen to do something somewhat remarkable in between.
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  #9873    
Old May 22nd, 2009 (01:59 PM).
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Lana.
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Heh. I actually created a DID RP character on a site once... she was fun to play for a little while, but I ended up favoring one side over the other (the angstyish, one, I guess).

My research wasn't the best, seeing as I used Wikipedia of all things. But the basic concepts are the same; it mostly stems from a traumatic issue. Even if you write in the traumatic conflict, it doesn't necessarily shoot your rating R, so long as you write it to keep it in a PG/PG-13 range.

On average, though, people with DID have ten or so "alters." But two, I think, can be perfectly acceptable. We have the traumatic event, and the character has to create a new way of interpreting the world to deal with the trauma/stress.

Remember, Google's a goldmine (I'm looking at the DID page on WebMD right now). A character with DID can be a lot of fun to write (and this is based on personal experience), but you also have to keep the psychological aspect of it all in mind. There are plenty of issues DID people experience other than weird social relationships.
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Old May 22nd, 2009 (11:03 PM).
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Astinus
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Quote originally posted by Feign:
- Because it is a town, it would make sense that others would also help out (assuming that not everyone in the town was affected by x event). Though people from out of town could help. Making your character the only one doing the saving, sort of looks like the chosen one scenario. Again this is justified, if it is explained properly, but it looks like you won't be including it.
She is the only one saving the town. The fic is mainly written to show how much she has grown as a trainer/person in general, and in order to show that, she pretty much has to go out and save the town on her own. I don't know how that's going to happen in the fic (I don't have it all planned out, since it's undecided if I'm even going to write it), but she goes out to save the village on her own. There's also not going to be others sent to help her, because no one knew how serious the trouble the village is in was.

But I do know what you are talking about.

Also, Dragonfree, that post of yours is the best I have seen recently.
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Old May 22nd, 2009 (11:13 PM).
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Yeah that could also work. Hmmm it is somewhat like movie 2, where Ash just wanted to get started, and the rest of the town didn't 100% know what was going on.
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