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View Poll Results: Should Porygon-z be made BL on the PC server/made BL in general ?
Yes 25 75.76%
No 8 24.24%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

 
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  #1    
Old January 24th, 2010, 11:32 AM
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Id like to nominate a semi ban on porygon-z from UU (i.e you can request non p-z battles) on our server.

As for the reasons, here;

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Yes this is pretty obvious. Porygon-z absolutely destroys pretty much everything in the tier, only 16 pokemon out of the 56 even outspeed it which means that if these slower pokemon dont have strong STAB Mach Punch, i wish you good luck koing it, it also lacks good checks which makes switching into it a chore. Say in ou you'd be all like "oh go ScarfTran, Jirachi etc lol checked" UU lacks these good solid checks. That is a significant portion of the metagame right there.

If you are unsure of the sets its running, here is an insight;

Porygon-z@Leftovers
252 SAtk / 252 Speed / 6 HP
Timid Nature
Trait : Adaptability
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse

Porygon-z@Lum Berry / Life Orb
252 SAtk / 252 Speed / 6 HP
Timid Nature
Trait : Adaptability
- Hidden Power [Fighting/Ground]
- Nasty Plot
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse

Porygon-z@LIfe Orb
80 SAtk / 176 Speed / 252 HP
Modest Nature
Trait : Adaptability
- Recover
- Nasty Plot
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse

Ah the flagship UU Porygon-z set, the Nasty Plotter. Why do these variations of Porygon-z make it so deadly ? Even though they are all Nasty Plot Porygon-z they function differently and let me emphasize each set has VERY specific counters and they prey on what your opponent has and what they dont expect from it, so even though they are all Nasty Plot Porygon-z they WILL cost you dearly if you slip up and make ONE TINY mistake. This is easy to do as all you have to do is Nasty Plot/Attack on the switch in and you wont know the rest of the set. To put this in example form, say an Chansey switches in as you Nasty Plot then it tries to status you as you sub/have a lum berry you get +4 and Chansey will be destroyed.

Next for those of you who like to fling status around the first set and second set makes you pay for that by giving them another FREE Nasty Plot.

Those of you who like to use brute force ? Bulkygon-z WILL set up on your walls/pokemon which fail to do significant damage to it if you try that (I.e Registeel and weak little choice scarfers).

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

The all out Nasty Plotter is played almost suicidal from what ive seen just to decimate counters and checks to soften them up which makes it fit the support characteristics, since it shares several counters with other things, mainly Mismagius the clear successfulness of this strategy is seen here. No other pokemon in UU can generate that much uncertainty of its sets even though they are all just Nasty Plotters.


Porygon-z@Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
252 SAtk / 252 Speed / 6 HP
Timid / Modest Nature
Trait : Adaptability
- Trick
- Tri Attack
- Hidden Power [Fighting/Ground]
- Dark Pulse


Choice Porygon-Z also is a massive threat. Ive heard even respected battlers such as Heysup say "ughhh Scarf P-Z smashes offensive teams". This set WILL make you pay because the specs set also hits immensly hard and even so called counters such as Chansey risk getting tricked which as im sure you will know makes it basically useless, again making it fit the support characteristics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twist Of Fate of smogon
I'd say 3-4 of my losses were to NP Porygon-Z, who just absolutely wrecks stall. I can't even add anything to cover it from a defensive perspective, and I refuse to use something like Dugtrio just to revenge-kill, because I see it as a wasted slot. Everyone hyped Cresselia so much that no one realizes Porygon-Z is such a ridiculous powerhouse. Can we please get rid of it?
Also one last point, may i remind you that Yanmega wa banned because it made offense non-viable. Why shouldnt Porygon-z be banned if it does the same to stall ? Yes i love stall, but this is unbias.

Thankyou for reading. Thoughts ?
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; January 24th, 2010 at 12:09 PM.
  #2    
Old January 24th, 2010, 11:50 AM
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Thankyou for reading. Thoughts ?
Why are you asking for thoughts' opinion?

Are you proposing a suspects test or what? Because everyone seems to ignore my questions while debate is going on in the server lol.
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  #3    
Old January 24th, 2010, 12:02 PM
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It should be. I agree. Its too broken. If it gets up a nasty plot it easily destroys most things with a tri attack or t-bolt or dark pulse. BL fo' shizzle.
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  #4    
Old January 24th, 2010, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .Aero View Post
Why are you asking for thoughts' opinion?

Are you proposing a suspects test or what? Because everyone seems to ignore my questions while debate is going on in the server lol.
Nah just making it acceptable to request non p-z battles on the server, i made it more clear in the op after a discussion with anti.
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  #5    
Old January 24th, 2010, 03:38 PM
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I've played around with both the Sub and Bulkygon sets, and I can agree that both of them are extremely broken, especially with Modest natures/Max Spa. For example, something is wrong when a LO boosted Tri Attack is doing 50% to a Magneton @__@ which has happened quite a few times. Also several walls just hate what Porygon-Z can do to them, including Milotic, Venusaur, and heck Arcanine hates the Bulkygon set. In the times I've met Porygon-Z on the server, really it just came down to P-Z vs. P-Z on both sides of the field, because apart from certain revenge killers with Mach Punch and D_A's ChanseyTomb combo, not much can touch P-Z at all.

As D_A said, Porygon-Z has also made Stall impossible to be maintained unless you have either a very Special Defensive Registeel or his ChanseyTomb combo, and even then Toxic needs to be placed somewhere.

Overall I think Porygon-Z really just unbalanced the whole metagame and made everybody focus on beating it completely, which is near impossible to do, or you lose to any Porygon-Z.
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  #6    
Old January 24th, 2010, 04:20 PM
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Btw if you use the poll, please elaborate your decisions and why you picked it.
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  #7    
Old January 24th, 2010, 04:50 PM
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Should definitely be banned on the server. The only thing I have that always beats it is Mach Punch Hitmontop, which is ridiculous. I shouldn't need Mach Punch on it.
  #8    
Old January 24th, 2010, 05:15 PM
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Ughh this is getting pretty ridiculous. P-Z is pretty much ruining the metagame (along with rain dance but thats a different story). :/

I just faced a Download NP P-Z, that crap rips though Chansey like a knife through butter.

63.3% - 74.6% +2 (NP) LO Dowload (+1) Tri Attack (+3) Vs Chansey.

68% - 80.2% +4 (Lum Berry) Tri Attack Download Tri Attack (+5) Vs Chansey.

Even if Chansey survives grats you have a badly crippled useless special wall, now good luck with that, even more so with SR up.

This crap honestly needs to go, it fits the characteristics requirements easily.

I mean how the hell can anything (even on offense) going to take hits from this thing, seriously. :/
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  #9    
Old January 24th, 2010, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Ughh this is getting pretty ridiculous. P-Z is pretty much ruining the metagame (along with rain dance but thats a different story). :/

I just faced a Download NP P-Z, that crap rips though Chansey like a knife through butter.

63.3% - 74.6% +2 (NP) LO Dowload (+1) Tri Attack (+3) Vs Chansey.

68% - 80.2% +4 (Lum Berry) Tri Attack Download Tri Attack (+5) Vs Chansey.

Even if Chansey survives grats you have a badly crippled useless special wall, now good luck with that, even more so with SR up.

This crap honestly needs to go, it fits the characteristics requirements easily.

I mean how the hell can anything (even on offense) going to take hits from this thing, seriously. :/
It crapped all over my weezing earlier today on. SR damage + 1 turn of hail damage + LO + Download SPA + NP + Tri Attack = kill.

I hate it.
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  #10    
Old January 24th, 2010, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer691 View Post
It crapped all over my weezing earlier today on. SR damage + 1 turn of hail damage + LO + Download SPA + NP + Tri Attack = kill.

I hate it.
:/

How does it killing a weezing prove anything ? Because that is such an awesome counter. ~___~
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  #11    
Old January 24th, 2010, 06:13 PM
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:/

How does it killing a weezing prove anything ? Because that is such an awesome counter. ~___~
It killed a blissey too.....but i felt that was too emberasing to post.
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  #12    
Old January 24th, 2010, 09:39 PM
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I think Porygon-Z does deserve a move to BL, I've tested both SubNP and also Bulky P-Z on a few of my teams and it requires basically no support to rip apart teams. It also makes stall a lot less viable cause Bulky P-Z since most walls can only muster weak hits on it while it sets up plus after a single NP it can 2HKO most special walls in UU. Plus even if your Pokemon resists it, you're still taking a massive hit :/

LO w/ three attacks have been the easiest to deal with for me since I have a tonne of priority of on my team but for the other sets it's much harder since SubNP can throw up a Sub while BulkyGon doesn't take as much.

And gamer do you really expect something with 65 HP / 70 Def to survive that lol? It does like 200%
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  #13    
Old January 25th, 2010, 10:07 AM
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From my experience NP Porygon-Z can even deal big damage to Bold Chansey. I think it can 2KO not sure too lazy to run calcs.
Porygon-Z (and Cresselia but I'l save that for a different thread) should be BL.
  #14    
Old January 25th, 2010, 09:05 PM
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Honestly, I've found Porygon-Z to be perfectly checkable. I mean, it's a fantastic Pokemon, but ho hum speed and less than decent defenses mean that Porygon-Z will struggle in some way with whatever role it's given. Nasty Plot Porygon-Z has two major problems. 1. It's frail, so it pretty much has to come in on a choiced ghost attack, or weak attacker [that doesn't carry thunder wave] - such as Milotic (and even then you're losing a good chunk of health/getting poisoned) to get that Nasty Plot in, and 2. It has to outspeed whatever comes in next. There's also the fact that it IS "spongable", unless Porygon-Z carries substitute, Pokemon such as Chansey and Cresselia can take its attacks and cripple it with paralysis (and even then substitute can be dealt with via Seismic Toss). A couple of other great defensive checks include Spiritomb and Dusclops, particularly the former who can threaten with STAB Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and even Calm Mind. You'll find that without use of its STAB move, Porygon-Z is just your average strong special attacker, its thunderbolts ice beams and dark pulses aren't even as threatening in pure-power terms as moves such as Blaziken's Fire Blast. Pokemon such as Registeel and the aformentioned Spiritomb are fine answers. Also, like Alakazam, Porygon-Z is extremely vulnerable to revenge killings and priority; a flaw that only clever [risky] use of Substitute or switching can help to cover. Slower, offensive Pokemon such as Hitmontop, Azumarill, Absol and friends can all easily come along and cut a sweep earlier; and that "small" (about 25% of the tier) list of Pokemon that outspeed Porygon are at large; including our friends Swellow, Sceptile, Alakazam, Arcanine, Ambipom, Raikou and Scyther who can all OHKO or near OHKO (stealth rock or life orb can easily seal the deal) Porygon.

But wait! What if the Porygon user decides to use a Choice Scarf to outrun the whole tier!? Ignoring the obvious point that there will always be other, faster choice scarfers like Houndoom and Mismagius, there's the fact that I don't believe that a Pokemon can ever be deemed broken based on its ability to use a choice scarf. Not only is choice scarf Porygon-Z generally wallable, but the move restriction can mean that Mismagius sets up Calm Minds or Nasty Plots against your Tri Attacks, Raikou on your thunderbolts, Blaziken on your Ice Beams, etc etc etc.

Long story short. Porygon-Z only poses that enormous offensive threat if it's willing to open itself up to the myriad of faster Pokemon in UU that can hit hard, and if it wants more speed, it has to sacrifice this so called broken amount of power. Yes, Porygon is too powerful for UU to handle, but does it matter if it's not getting to fire off attacks? Like the hyped Alakazam before it, and for many of the same reasons, is Porygon-Z a broken addition to UU? No. It is not. (Or at least I think so, feel free to prove me wrong~).
  #15    
Old January 26th, 2010, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissHawthorne View Post
2. It has to outspeed whatever comes in next.

Only 16 pokemon even outspeed it in UU and there are 56 pokemon there. This is surprisingly difficult and that is a majority of the metagame.


There's also the fact that it IS "spongable", unless Porygon-Z carries substitute, Pokemon such as Chansey and Cresselia can take its attacks and cripple it with paralysis (and even then substitute can be dealt with via Seismic Toss).

Cress is terrible switch in, since NP LO Dark Pulse owns it. Also the thing with status is that the sub set WILL make you pay if you status it as it subs and it can just NP again. That and the Lum berry set also uses you as set up fodder. One tiny slip up is all it takes.


A couple of other great defensive checks include Spiritomb and Dusclops, particularly the former who can threaten with STAB Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and even Calm Mind.

"Good luck taking +4 NP LO Dark Pulses" (due to your inability to do anything to it lol)


You'll find that without use of its STAB move, Porygon-Z is just your average strong special attacker, its thunderbolts ice beams and dark pulses aren't even as threatening in pure-power terms as moves such as Blaziken's Fire Blast.

It still has all the coverage it needs to hit the whole tier for neutral coverage with just Tri/Dark Pulse and HP Fight. Also it isnt an average special attacker. Nasty Plot, its ability to actually break Chansey down so badly so its near useless, and even its ability.

Pokemon such as Registeel and the aformentioned Spiritomb are fine answers.

Not really considering these both lose to Lum-Z and Tomb loses to Sub-Z and the Bulky NPer actually sets up on Registeel, actually sets up on both.


Also, like Alakazam, Porygon-Z is extremely vulnerable to revenge killings and priority; a flaw that only clever [risky] use of Substitute or switching can help to cover.

Substitute isnt risky. How the heck is sub risky ? It takes all the prediction out of it.

Additionally, P-Z lives pretty much all priority. The bulky nper can also live a Technitop mach Punch and sometimes even with SR which quite frankly is ridiculous. P-Z isnt frail like zam is.



Zam has more counters and more checks. Zam cant even threaten things like Spiritomb, Chansey and even Umbreon/Drapion/Skuntank etc can take its boosted hits. None of these can stand up to NP P-Z.

Calm mind is also slower than Nasty Plot which makes it much easier to deal with and so does being Pursuit bait and extremely frail on the physical side.


Slower, offensive Pokemon such as Hitmontop, Azumarill, Absol and friends can all easily come along and cut a sweep earlier

Yeah none of these are good checks because even unboosted Tri Attack does an ass load to all of them. As said, uu lacks good checks such as Jirachi and Scarf Tran, Scizor, Metagross, Tar and god knows what else. Those are good checks, as they resist and/are able to switch in on like all of its moves on any set. The pokemon you named cannot. That is what distinguishes them. Hitmontop (Technitop) is prolly the best check who takes like 60% just switching into an unboosted Tri Attack, i really wouldnt call that a good check because its extremely easy to wear down with SR and LO recoil.

and that "small" (about 25% of the tier) list of Pokemon that outspeed Porygon are at large; including our friends Swellow, Sceptile, Alakazam, Arcanine, Ambipom, Raikou and Scyther who can all OHKO or near OHKO (stealth rock or life orb can easily seal the deal) Porygon.

All are revenge killers. When you have to revenge kill something to deal with it, something tells me something is seriously wrong lol.


But wait! What if the Porygon user decides to use a Choice Scarf to outrun the whole tier!? Ignoring the obvious point that there will always be other, faster choice scarfers like Houndoom and Mismagius, there's the fact that I don't believe that a Pokemon can ever be deemed broken based on its ability to use a choice scarf. Not only is choice scarf Porygon-Z generally wallable, but the move restriction can mean that Mismagius sets up Calm Minds or Nasty Plots against your Tri Attacks, Raikou on your thunderbolts, Blaziken on your Ice Beams, etc etc etc.



No, but the ability to use Trick your scarf lets you meet the support characteristics by destroying all your defensive checks by making it "significantly easier for other Pokemon to sweep". NP P-Z does this too, i.e it opens up sweeps by sheer power for things like Mismagius for people who think Tomb is a good check.


Long story short. Porygon-Z only poses that enormous offensive threat if it's willing to open itself up to the myriad of faster Pokemon in UU that can hit hard, and if it wants more speed, it has to sacrifice this so called broken amount of power. Yes, Porygon is too powerful for UU to handle, but does it matter if it's not getting to fire off attacks? Like the hyped Alakazam before it, and for many of the same reasons, is Porygon-Z a broken addition to UU? No. It is not. (Or at least I think so, feel free to prove me wrong~).


16 pokemon out of 56 =/= myraid.

Alakazam as stated has some great checks, P-Z does not because all of them can be used as set up fodder or none of its checks can take a hit on the switch which a check is meant to be able to do and all of its defensive "checks" are destroyed. This more than anything tells me something is seriously wrong with it.

Yanmega was also made BL for this reason. It destroyed offense and forced the metagame to become stall because only defensive pokemon could even deal with it. Porygon-z does the opposite and then some. It destroys stall and even makes offense difficult due to its lack of good checks.
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; January 26th, 2010 at 05:43 AM.
  #16    
Old January 29th, 2010, 01:23 AM
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Scarfed Gallade always out speeds, so switch on the nasty plot and Close Combat for the 1hKO.
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Old January 29th, 2010, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peeky Chew View Post
Scarfed Gallade always out speeds, so switch on the nasty plot and Close Combat for the 1hKO.
A valid point if not for the fact that Gallade is not UU. However the likes of Blaziken and Hitmonlee exist; as well as pretty much every other offensive Pokemon in UU that outspeeds Porygon-Z with or without a Choice Scarf.
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Old January 29th, 2010, 04:23 AM
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A valid point if not for the fact that Gallade is not UU. However the likes of Blaziken and Hitmonlee exist; as well as pretty much every other offensive Pokemon in UU that outspeeds Porygon-Z with or without a Choice Scarf.
Thing is "what if P-Z subs up or is specs or scarf or just attacks (i.e uses its main stab move) on the switch in?" you are just down one pokemon basically.

Switching fighting types into P-Z is retarded basically.

The only good check i can even think of is like Scarf Aggron. :/
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; January 29th, 2010 at 04:30 AM.
  #19    
Old January 29th, 2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Thing is "what if P-Z subs up or is specs or scarf or just attacks (i.e uses its main stab move) on the switch in?" you are just down one pokemon basically.

Switching fighting types into P-Z is retarded basically.

The only good check i can even think of is like Scarf Aggron. :/
And what if I was against another 'mon and I protected and they used stealth rock? What if I toxiced and they swicthced to a steel? What if I used a normal type attack and they swictched to a ghost?
You can't just always say "what if?", I think you'd only be happy with Porygon-Z if it was 1HKO-able by any 'mon and didn't know substitute.

And Gallade was UU before, wasn't it?
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Old January 29th, 2010, 10:27 AM
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It doesn't matter. Scarf P-Z outspeeds and 2HKO's all your fighting buddies including Gallade.
PS: Gallade got kicked out of UU for basically the same reasons P-Z will prolly get kicked, =/.
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Old January 29th, 2010, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Peeky Chew View Post
And what if I was against another 'mon and I protected and they used stealth rock? What if I toxiced and they swicthced to a steel? What if I used a normal type attack and they swictched to a ghost?
Umm, those have nothing to do with the context of this.

This thread is about P-Z and if you are bringing up things (i.e bad checks like fighting types) that take like 90% by just switching into its main moves then something tells me something is incredibly wrong. ~__~
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Old January 30th, 2010, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Umm, those have nothing to do with the context of this.

This thread is about P-Z and if you are bringing up things (i.e bad checks like fighting types) that take like 90% by just switching into its main moves then something tells me something is incredibly wrong. ~__~
I was saying, as you know fair well, that you shouldn't be able to predict every single thing. Thanks for taking my post out of context, but it only makes you look arrogant.
What I meant is that you can't predict everything. And so what if you take 90% damage? You might not and you'll still be able to do 100% back.
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Old January 30th, 2010, 05:26 AM
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I was saying, as you know fair well, that you shouldn't be able to predict every single thing. Thanks for taking my post out of context, but it only makes you look arrogant.
What I meant is that you can't predict everything. And so what if you take 90% damage? You might not and you'll still be able to do 100% back.
Firstly, calling me arrogant when im obviously not (in this case) and just stating facts only gets you closer to a warning.

Next, no ? How am i taking you out of context ? Elaborate please.

Please tell me how getting OHKO'd with Stealth Rock up is a way to go about dealing with things, because you sure as heck wont win many matches if thats how you go about "dealing with things". Any good player is going to absolutely destroy you if you use these terrible easy to remove and wear down checks.

But ok, here is your original point.

Quote:
However the likes of Blaziken and Hitmonlee exist; as well as pretty much every other offensive Pokemon in UU that outspeeds Porygon-Z with or without a Choice Scarf.
First off, 16 pokemon out of the whole tier outspeed it. That is a significant portion of the metagame already that P-Z outspeeds alone.

Unboosted Tri Attack Vs Hitmonlee : 68.9% - 81.3%
Unboosted Tri Attack Vs Blaziken : 79.7% - 94.4%

And with Download.

Unboosted Tri Attack Vs Hitmonlee : 102.9% - 122%
Unboosted Tri Attack Vs Blaziken : 120.3% - 141.5%

"If this is your only way to deal with it then i wish you luck"

Also dont bring the "so what if i have to take 90% damage at least i can ko back" argument up. Its moot, Stealth Rock and Spikes are incredibly common in uu (mainly the latter because of Froslass) so you die upon switching into P-Z. Sub also takes the prediction out of these checks easily.

You will find that most other "checks/bad choice scarfers" take similar damage upon just switching into Porygon-Z and if they are defensive they run the risk of being set up on. I mean you have no way to tell what item its running or what set because they are all Nasty Plot.

Which is my point. Lack of good checks and counters, uncertainty about which set its running which easily leads to destroyed "counters and checks" with relative ease makes it fit the characteristics.
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; January 30th, 2010 at 05:38 AM.
  #24    
Old January 30th, 2010, 06:22 AM
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Vyro
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It should be banned. I find that Porygon-Z is actually a pretty good OU sweeper as well. In fact, until now, I had no idea he was OU.
  #25    
Old January 30th, 2010, 09:19 AM
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Peeky Chew
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Firstly, calling me arrogant when im obviously not (in this case) and just stating facts only gets you closer to a warning.

Next, no ? How am i taking you out of context ? Elaborate please.
When I said about the different things which could happen, I wasn't saying nothing to do with this. I mean that when you said "what if it subs?", you wouldn't be able to predict that, just like battling against any Pokemon. You can't predict what they're goig to do.
It was obvious what I meant, but you simpley replied "Umm, those have nothing to do with the context of this."
That's why I said you were being arrogant.
And "closer to a warning." So I suppose I was already close to a warning by disaggreeing with you in the first place?
I shouldn't have to just let you "win" an "argument" (which btw, wasn't one untill you suddenly throw a warning on the table, if you weren't a mod and you contacted a mod about all of this, nothing would happen) because I may get warned for you "not" understanding the obvious.
[/rant]

Anyway, this thread is pretty pointless now. The poll is obviously going one way.
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Last edited by Peeky Chew; January 30th, 2010 at 09:25 AM.
 
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