Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project

[Astinus]

More awake now, so...

Would it be obnoxious, and do normal mods have the power to do this?

Yes, and no.

Yes to the obnoxious. Imagine you're someone brand-spanking new to the forum, and you come to this section. (Why? Who wouldn't? :V) You click on the link and then like a baseball bat to the face is some really annoying pop-up telling you to read the rules...when all you wanted to do was figure out what's going on.

Or if you miss-clicked.

Besides, what would that say about our section when we're the only ones on the forum that has a pop-up like that?

people are more likely to look at it, even as they rush to get it off their screen.

Or they say "Eff this!" and click the ignore button as fast as they can without looking to see what it's all about, Alfie.

Personally (and I'm applying what happens at my work), I would go with a more personal one-on-one (or small group) approach to going over the rules and pointing out the stickies. Take the new person aside, go over things with them, answering any questions and whatnot. But that's more like the mentoring program that went off as well as a luftballoon.

Thing is, I don't know how that'll work out. Do the new writers ask for help like that? Is there going to be a group of people strolling around, tackling all new members to this? Idk and Idc, but I'm saying no to the pop-up.

For those reasons and because a moderator can't do that.

As for this:

1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered?

An explanation as to what "constructive" means, and then letting people know that they don't have to write an essay on the chapter in order to review. Like, letting people know what we're looking for when we say "be constructive."

And of course the bit about how authors shouldn't insult their reviews would be grand. It's a-okay to disagree with a review, but don't be a drama queen who wanks to your own giant ego about it.

(Or was it just laziness/the issue of trying to decide who would qualify as being a suitable tour guide to the newblets?)

DINGDINGDING! goes the trolley!

That, and maybe my statement of "this would be the last place I would go for writing help" holds true?

I mean, how would we judge who's the best for guiding the future hope of this section? Credentials that actually don't mean anything? (If that's the case, then the moderator's automatically out.) Everyone gathers in a fenced-in pen and I just randomly fire a gun at everyone, and whoever is left standing is it?

(or whichever other person has modly powers)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I'm amused now.

[Giratina ♀]

Since you seem to be popping up more often (and because I've seen your work)... yeah, I figure you'll be able to get it done.

Well, I've pestered txt via VM and asked about it, so... not much we can do on that count. |D

For one-shots, what would keep someone from just considering it to be a finished story and posting it to the archive?

I believe that a certain level of user is able to restrict other users from being able to post in a certain forum/subforum. Perhaps that could go into effect here.

=D

[Mizan de la Plume Kuro]

I am now convinced that time is conspiring against me. Thank God I’m a semi-speed-reader. Anyway, I’ve noticed that you guys, well a portion of you anyway, have been practically awesome while I’ve been jumping in and lurking in between work (what kind of work is up to your imagination.). This makes me slightly guilty since I did play a part in suggestions, but have failed to come up with anything concrete as of now. Even though I do read fast, it took a while to understand that wall-o-text (which was very informative btw) from the last page and now I’m ready to make my input to the revival project.

First off:

Originally Posted by Jax

2. Review-a-Review Thread
Thread Creation: Mizan (No deadline until the review guide pops up.)
Once the review guide goes up, Mizan, you're doing this. Start writing the first post.

I’m re-checking on what you’re asking of me since I don’t like doing things without planning ahead…
I’m going to assume that this is the thread where we post our reviews and ask for feedback on how we’ve done... Then, I’m guessing the general idea is for me to also get those review exercises and answer keys done...

It’s up till there with what I’m planning on doing with that thread so I’m adding a few suggestions of my own to this particular idea. Aside from me doing the review exercises, we can also ask FFL veterans to submit their own badfics and answer keys since we’re going to need a varied list of mistakes (and I can’t showcase every single common mistake someone might do in my badfic since I’m far from perfect.) which we can then use for analysis and subsequently be used by anyone who wants to try their hand at reviewing before being sent out into the field. Also, I’m thinking of another mentor system in which we have dedicated members who actually respond to someone asking on how they review. Something like the beta-thread, but these members will be listed in the Reviewer’s Academy(coming up with a better name if there’s no objections) as official mentors. As OMs it is mandatory for them to review another member’s review(that has been requested for reviewing) unless someone hasn’t already done it. This way, we can avoid unanswered requests and if we have enough mentors that are active, we won’t have any pending requests like in the beta-thread(no offense bnb). Of course, mentors are allowed to post their own reviews and ask for comments and regular members can also jump in the thread to offer their own comments. OMs may also be VM’d if they’ve been inactive for too long to avoid members claiming status without actually doing any work. Since I also want to avoid being too strict, OM’s must at least review 5 reviews a month so we can get perpetual activity.

The only flaw I see here, unless someone’s willing to point something out since I’m sure it isn’t 100% perfect, is that newbies might not post their reviews in the academy. How mentorship is gained is up for debate.

Main Points

• Other members, besides me, submit their own badfics and answer keys which I’ll display in the first post in case anyone wants to try them out.
• Mentor System with Official Mentors(kind of like the beta-thread, but for reviewing reviews).
• OMs must review reviews unless it hasn’t been done and must meet a ‘five reviews of a review per month’ quota.
• OMs that fail to do this will lose their OM status.
• OMs may be VM’d requests to review a review.

7. Review Announcement Thread
System Creation: Mizan
Mizan gave himself this job, but don't let me see it until the other reviewing guides are up for obvious reasons.

Basically, I’m gonna follow claim thread format with a few deviations. This includes reserving posts in case I need to extend the list.

As stated back in the FFL, members post in the thread to tell me that they’ve done review so-and-so with a link to the review. Every week or month, I’ll check the review links posted to make sure they meet the necessary criteria(refer below) and then I’ll update the wall of reviewer’s list at the beginning of the thread to show that member x has done (this much of reviews) this month which makes his review rate from the time of his first review posted in the thread to be [(number of reviews)/(months since first ‘recorded in thread ‘review)]. Members that manage a 10RpM quota can request the shiny bronze emblem from Asty. If they manage to maintain the quota for a few more months, they get the silver one and so on and so forth. The Reviewer’s Emblem(the one for quality reviews) is not requestable since it’s up to how Asty perceives their reviews -- if it is quality material.

Also up for discussion is if we need to fulfill a certain criteria for reviews that qualify for rank emblems. Something specific so that I have something check against when checking the validity of review claims. Possibly a set criteria like, reviews must point out at least five things(either negative or positive) and must be at least five relative lines long or something like that. Because reviews that point out one or two mistakes and are helpful, but short might make the emblems too easy to request for and might make the rank emblems cheap. Then they kind of lose their prestige like the ‘New Year’s emblem (which is not really anything to be proud off).

8. Rules Revamp
Plot/Writing/Whatever: ALL OF US.(?) And it's going to be effing sweet.
As proposed by Azurne, one way we're going to get people to read the rules thread is by turning it into the most epic story ever. Planning committee will be assembled once we get a few questions out of the way. The forum will explode with how epic it will be.

I’m going to enjoy this. Also hoping that this doesn’t turn out to be like the Christmas Carol Crackfic of Doom because we all know how crappy that went. >_>

If I may interject with a suggestion based on one of your quotes in the FFL.

Originally Posted by Jax

Also, should we have something special for anyone who writes a guide/submits an idea we actually use in this little revitalization project of ours?

It’s not really a prize rather an honorable mention, but I was thinking that maybe we might just sneak in the relevant threads somewhere in “Astinus’ Adventure in PCLand” Something like, “If you want to improve your skills, head over to Dagzar’s resource thread or maybe if you’d rather be a teacher, head on to bobandbill’s Beta thread.” Of course, the general script can be improved, but I’m just stating suggestions here. ^^


2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be?
We should all get cookiesWe could allow for FFL-type interaction to a certain limit, but this leads to cliquey and elitist behavior so I’m opting for the FFL to have certain posting guidelines so we don’t go randomly go off-topic. Also, we might have bold-topics, but we really need to stop being so uptight about answering them and generally focus on member to member interaction based on bold-topics, but without delving into over-randomness. Admittedly, this needs a massive overhaul in mentality, but so does regular reviewing...

3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies.
An announcement thing at the top of the forum like Chibi-chan does in OC. I don’t think anyone reads it, but it’s worth a shot.

4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W?
I’m toying with the possibility that we allow completed fics in the Completed Fics section to remained unlocked indefinitely if requested by the author. I mean, some people(including myself) have oneshots that have passed the one-month revival rule, but we’d still enjoy it if people commented on the fics.

Sorry if I missed anything relevant...

[Bay Alexison]

*brings activity back here*

Urgh, would have posted eariler, but was sick. >.> For now I'm only going to bring up a couple things I want to give my feedback on:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine

As for the round robin, I was thinking it'd help things out. We could plan out a basic plot that we should follow and have everyone write out bits that cover the rules we want to throw in. Then, someone assembles the stories and proofreads/edits, and it gets slapped up on the main forum as a sticky. That way, we don't overwork a single person and can get the most important part of the forums done in less than a year, with full feedback from its team of writers. Thus, it'll probably need to be in a separate thread once we get started so we can decide on what to put in, how to work out the story, and what the plot actually is.

What do you guys think?

Hm, only problem is it might end up like the Christmas Carol Cracky Fic thing that Mizan mentioned. Someone might just put something really random. >.> I do agree though maybe have a separate thread to discuss about how to do this story/rules thing. I think we can maybe have people put in their inputs, then a couple writers write it and proofread it.

Not to sound bitter, but would this be a good thing or a bad thing for a forum of writers? I mean, part of the reason why people were facepalming with how the FFL was going was because people kept forgetting that they were in the writing subforum and just talked about whatever they wanted (even if some of them had PC blogs, and the rest of us didn't really care about their off-topic notes). This, of course, led to the clique atmosphere because it was suddenly "OMG FAMILY" and "OMG INSIDE JOKES" and "OMG BOLD TOPIC I'M NOT GOING TO DISCUSS ANYONE ELSE'S ANSWERS UNLESS I'M ARGUING" with only the select regulars and not, "Oh hey, this is the casual, laid-back space where writers can exchange writing-related stuff 'cause this is a writing-based community and all."

That and we could easily just link to the DCC or get a usergroup going if we want an off-topic area where kids who frequent this forum can talk about absolutely anything they want (be it writing or otherwise). In fact, that's one thing I actually forgot about: the fact that it was proposed by me that we just migrate the insanity parts to a usergroup if we really wanted to keep it so that FF&W wouldn't feel like it was excluding anyone by having this massive thread full of off-topic inside jokes. Would you guys like this to happen? If so, who would like to start it up? (Keep in mind that we could always link to it somewhere, so it's not like it'll be this obscure corner of PC.)

Honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of usergroups because I don't look at them too often. ._. I guess we can give it a try though and see if that works. However, I think we're fine when it comes to communicating one another for other things besides writing and in the FFL as we're all able to talk to one another through the DDC, blogs, VM/PMs, other forums, etc.

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro

Main Points

• Other members, besides me, submit their own badfics and answer keys which I’ll display in the first post in case anyone wants to try them out.
• Mentor System with Official Mentors(kind of like the beta-thread, but for reviewing reviews).
• OMs must review reviews unless it hasn’t been done and must meet a ‘five reviews of a review per month’ quota.
• OMs that fail to do this will lose their OM status.
• OMs may be VM’d requests to review a review.

Hm, I don't think we need a mentor program thing for reviewing. Isn't what we're kind of doing anyways with the thread, someone wanting a review to be checked and someone else will give some advice?

As for the emblems thing you mentioned Mizan, we'll talk about that after we get some review guide/critique info straighten out first. >.>

[Mizan de la Plume Kuro]

Originally Posted by Bay Alexison

Hm, I don't think we need a mentor program thing for reviewing. Isn't what we're kind of doing anyways with the thread, someone wanting a review to be checked and someone else will give some advice?

It was just a suggestion because we really don't want it to fall into inactivity.

As for the emblems thing you mentioned Mizan, we'll talk about that after we get some review guide/critique info straighten out first. >.>

Yeah that was the general idea. I'm just clarifying it with the rest of you guys so I don't make a mistake when I get around to posting it...

[KajiVenator]

Is there any way I can help? I will offer my services if I may. I mean, I'm no spectacular writer but maybe I can help someone else on the section they are working on?

[txteclipse]

Well...this is somewhat awkward. Reading back, I see that Giratina took on the emblem-making responsibilities, but I sorta kinda made one just now and it's sex in the form of an icon the only one we have so far. Should I continue on or leave things up to you, Giratina? Just VM me when you get a chance.

Spoiler:

[JX Valentine]

Quickie post, but:

1. KajiVenator: Sure. We could use a lot of help with writing the rules thread. Even just feedback on what we're doing so we can gauge whether or not the point is getting across. You could be like a reviewer if you're not entirely confident with writing.

2. txty: I'm assuming this is for the gold emblem and not just reviewing in general. If so, thanks, and we could use it.

Meanwhile, so long as there aren't any page-long discussions about who's making what emblem (again), I'm leaving the choice about who's doing the rest of the emblem set to you, Giratina.

[txteclipse]

Speaking of the rules thread, is there like some revamp party going on somewhere that I wasn't invited to? Or did I just forget where it's all going down?

[JX Valentine]

It's an open endeavor at the moment. I just haven't put up an organization thread for us to sort out the plot and figure out who's writing what. That should be up over the weekend.

[txteclipse]

I'd say that's the next big thing to get out of the way. Everything else pretty much builds off of the rules, so if we have a solid system in place all of that should be a lot easier/more organized/what-have-you.

Oh, and a recursive "yes" to your earlier question: that's intended to be the gold emblem.

[Giratina ♀]

Txt, I said that if you needed assistance on any part of the project I would help. I quite like the Pokéball, though with just one letter and a relatively small "button line" it looks kinda plain. Maybe we could make it a Premier Ball or an Ultra Ball or something?

[Dagzar]

I don't have much to add right now, but I'm asking, can you guys post your resourses links? It's fine if you don't have any, but only two people have given me theirs (one in a PM) and my list is looking rather thin.

[bobandbill]

Hey guys you should all post more. =( And given the views I'm sure even newcomers to the section a peeking in - be friendly and give a suggestion, or even 'I agree with this idea because 'blah blah blah'' - I dare ya. ;P

But have even more of a reason to - I present a beta version of the plot bunny thread (name pending - anyone have a suggestion for something better for starters?) It's in two parts - the opening post and the 2nd post which is a guide to plotting as suggested. I do feel there's stuff that could be added/changed seeing I did finished it off quickly + recently but hey! A start at least!

...I hate it when I have to reformat stuff.

Spoiler:

The Plot Bunny Thread

Welcome to the Plot Bunny Thread. This thread is simply to post any story ideas you may have and receive feedback on them, or perhaps help provide feedback to other people’s ideas.


Some things to note before posting:

• The more detailed your summery of your idea, the better. Simply saying ‘trainer fic where the main character has a broken leg’ provides less information for people to work with as opposed to actually mentioning how, for example, the broken leg will affect the character in the story, how it happened, etc. Of course you needn’t have to go into such detail, particularly if you are unsure you want to reveal so much information about your story, but generally the more the better. This also includes what you are basing your story off (e.g. the anime, or the games, or maybe a specific manga) and things like that.
  
• The above would also be the case for feedback. Responding ‘I like the idea’ for instance is…nice to know, but not helpful and is spammy (and spam [short pointless annoying messages] is against the forum-wide rules). Rather, mention what you like (or dislike) about the idea, offer advice/suggestions, ask a question if you’re curious about a point… basically, in-depth discussion of ideas is encouraged here, so don’t be shy.
  
• Before you post your idea, please check the next post which contains the Plot Bunny Guide *linked to as well* It offers some basic things to consider about your idea before posting and also how to come up with/develop ideas, and may very well be of help to you.
  
• Don’t argue and be civil – please don’t ask people to get out of the thread or whatnot because you may not agree with each other. If there happens to be flaming going on remember it’s better to report and leave it for a mod/higher up to deal with it, not you.
  
• This isn’t restricted to Pokémon fics – any fandom-related (or original story) ideas can be discussed here – note though that one is more likely to get more feedback on Pokémon fics because this IS a Pokémon forum.
  
• Please don’t advertise if you decide to go ahead with it and use it in a fic – save that for your signature, as advertising is against the rules.

And with that, post away!

Spoiler:

Story Ideas Guide

Got a story idea that you think will take the world forum by storm? Or maybe you are unsure about how much potential it has or indeed if it’d make for an interesting story? Alternatively, you may be unsure how to develop an idea or find inspiration? Whatever the situation, the Guide may or may not have something that will help you. To find out…well, read on!


Why is Plotting important?


Why indeed? Because chances are if you jump into a story blindly, you stand a bigger chance of running out of steam/ideas before you’re done, and the story will add itself to the ever-growing mound of unfinished stories out there. Furthermore, plotting and planning out even the bare bones of the story gives you a better idea of what the story looks like and may help you catch some potential plot holes or problems earlier rather than later. And it tends to be easier to fix it in the planning stage then when you’re halfway through your fic realising you’ll have to either change your idea or go back and edit.


How to Come Up with the Plot


The first step in making a story tends to be considering what the story is about – what characters, what happens, and so forth – but the first problem is coming up with those things in the first place, and how to do that. First thing you should probably consider is to not rush your plotting – it applies to writing, and shouldn’t apply to your plotting. When you think of a detail or event to use, take the time to consider the implications of it. As for finding inspiration or ideas to use - there isn’t any sure-fire way that guarantees a good idea to come about – every person is different. Maybe listening to music helps you think, or going for a quiet walk? Mind-maps or the sort can help to give you a method to see your ideas and organise it out as well.

A good approach to start with is to go for a top-down approach – that is, start from the big picture – the general story idea itself, and from there work out the smaller details/factors of the story. The problem with trying to start with a small idea or point is that it’s harder to build a small moment or event into something big. However, if you do think up a character or event that interests you but are not sure how to use it – make a note of it! Write it down in a document or notebook and save it for future reference and maybe even use.


The Plotting Itself – Consider the finer details!


First thing you should probably consider is to not rush your plotting – it applies to writing, and shouldn’t apply to your plotting. When you think of a detail or event to use, take the time to consider the implications of it.
For instance, the idea may be ‘Midway through Character X’s adventure through the jungle she encounters a legendary Pokémon Suicune and catches it!’ On the face of it, it seems pretty exciting – jungles, Suicune, trainer has a legendary, stuff’s going to happen.

However, it’s not going to be as simple as that for the reader to take in their stride. How likely is catching a super-rare one/few-of-a-kind Pokémon going to be? Why would Suicune not just run away instead of letting itself get caught? Why did they meet in the first place – fate, chance? How would that affect the rest of the story – how would other characters react to the character having a Suicune? How long would this story be? By considering these things you can build on the idea, flesh it out, as well as figure out for yourself if it’d really make for a good idea or not, and hence a good story.


Overall though there are a lot of points to consider, even if the idea seems simple. Breaking it down into parts:

• The Genre and Style

Generally, the genre means what is the type/category the story falls under. Figuring out what your story is going to be like and what type of story it is is something better done early on. No point trying to plan a story if you don’t know if it’s a comedy or a tragedy! Consider what genre it would be, and from there decide what features in your story make it that genre, and then write to it.

• How believable is the story?

This is a rather important point to consider – how believable is the idea going to be for the reader? In other words – how feasible/likely are the events in the story? Generally the more exaggerated and unlikely the events the less believable a story will be – such as say the protagonist finding a Rattata in Kanto is far more likely than a shiny, abandoned Piplup which knows Hyper Beam there.

• Story length and format

You’d want to figure out as well how the story will be written and how long it may end up being. Is it a one shot, or a full chaptered fic? What point-of-view will it be written from – say 1st (from a character’s perspective) or 3rd (narrator’s?) Maybe it’d be written in a diary format? Whatever the choice it will impact the delivery of the story. Remember however that a story should be as long as it has to be to tell the story.

• Characters involved?

Basically, consider who will be in the fic. Are they OCs/self-inserts/etc, or canon characters? In the case of the latter appearing also consider how they act in your story and if this is in line with how they act in canon – for having a smoking, swearing, sword-wielding Professor may be an awesome thought, but not if this is what you call Professor Oak – it’ll hurt the aforementioned believability part and just look silly.

• The finer stuff – Character reactions, consequences, etc

Once you have the general concept down and you are generally satisfied with it, you can work on the finer details. Keep a clear idea of what you’ve thought of so far, and consider how character reactions to events would go, how the events are portrayed and how they affect everything relevant in the story.

[Giratina ♀]

Well, first off, you'd need to do a grammar check. I saw a couple of typos in there. : P Seriously though, it seems like a good summary; however, I did notice that you used the term 'plot bunny' an awful lot. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

Originally Posted by yours truly

A plot bunny is named such for its similarity to an actual rabbit; it shows up looking cute and cuddly, and if you’re not careful you’ll end up chasing it around while ignoring everything else, even other stories - and that's just a recipe for disaster. Sometimes they actually do work for you and turn into a good fic, but most of the time they end up distracting you with a shiny new plot idea that never goes anywhere.

"Plot idea" and "plot bunny" are not interchangable terms; are you treating the thread as an idea-sharing thread or an "Okay, I've got this cool idea I can't use, what do I do" thread?

[Breezy]

A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

Well, er, no. A plot bunny is called a plot bunny because it gnaws at the brain (like bunnies) until you write something about it. You know, I'm sure this has happened to you when you're trying to sleep, but some awesome idea for a story pops in your head, and you have trouble sleeping because of it. That is a plot bunny.

Annoying buggers, no? =P

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotBunny

You're right in the sense that it's hard to ignore it, but it doesn't mean an idea that will lead you nowhere. You may have gotten that definition because people often use other people's plot bunnies (think of a fanfic adoption thread) because the original creator doesn't know what to do with it, or is too lazy to use the idea.

But really, it has come under general acceptance that plot bunny is referring to a plot idea anyway.

Edit here: And if we were to use your definition of plot bunny (that it's an idea that leads no where), then the thread title actually seems better suited because you have other people trying to help you figure out where you want to go with this story while hammering out the kinks.

~ ~ ~

Edit: Also, because the first post asked for an outsider opinion ... I can't really comment on the planned stickies as, well, you guys have that handled, so I'm going to address something different that concerns all the stickies. That question is: who's going to be reading these stickies if you can't get anyone new to come into them? Why is it that new members (and maybe some new members who are experienced in other forums) don't seem to be really entering these sorts of conversations?

Tl;dr summary: This is a post about your forum's vibe; it does not necessarily mean this is actually happening in the forum. A lot of people I talked to outside your community seem to be turned off by the tone that is being reflected in this forum – that is, they get a feeling that the veteran members gives off an air of them knowing everything and all disagreements are wrong. A newbie's opinion doesn't seem to hold the same weight as a veteran's, and that's not how it should work. If agreements go on for too long, the tone becomes more hostile than constructive. Basically, don't jump to assumptions, keep your tone neutral, and fully read and understand posts, even if you don't agree with them.

In short, you have to address HOW you're posting and not just what improvements need to be made because what's the point of these shiny new stickies if no one, besides you guys, posts in them? Newbies will come and help if they don't think they'll get their head bitten off from it. It is a process that requires both sides to come to some sort of middle ground. New members who are experienced with forums will have no problem coming in and butting heads because they're probably use to it by now (ahem), but as for the new, like new-to-forums, member ... well, it's damn scary.

Like your first day of high school. Relive that horror.

The spoil is just me rambling about what I said above, but with example goodness!

Spoiler:

I'm really glad to see that you're taking steps to improve the forum. It is a lot of work (just looking at it makes me go eek D: ), but I'm sure it'll be well worth it once you achieve the sort of forum you want to perceive to the outside community.

But let's talk about that: the outside community. I'm not all that sure if you're really hitting the core of your problem with why newbie authors don't read stickies or why new members seem tentative to post. The solutions andconcepts you have now have are awesome and will fit well ... once you figure out why no one new seems to be reading these threads or hardly posting in your FFL in the first place.

Now, take this with a grain of salt. This post is commenting on the VIBE that your forum is currently sending out. You may or may not be actually doing what I'm going to tell here, but as long as this vibe is being broadcast, then the new member is going to feel like that is what the forum is going to be like.

To rephrase my previous post in the FFL:

Originally Posted by Breezy

As a somewhat outsider looking in, I can sympathize with the new author trying to post here. Conversation here goes a mile a minute, and it is hard to keep up, and while the community is obviously tight-knit and friendly, it does seem intimidating as a new author to try to make a name for himself in this thread.

I'm going to expand on this. Why does it seem intimidating for a newbie to converse with you, the veterans of PC?

(1) The cliques. There have been attempts to break the barriers–again, great job–but they're not fully broken down. The divide between new members vs. veteran members is still clearly apparent; neither side doesn't seem to be making huge attempts to mingle with the other side:

--(1a) the new member may be turned off and feel outcast because you all are so close and may feel like they are intruding. There are often hostile tones, intentional or not, if the new member continues to disagree with a veteran member.
--(1b) the veteran member may be turned off because it has been proved time and time again that new members act moronic or just don't listen.

And I empathize with (1b) being a veteran on another forum and an active reviewer there currently. There is a lot of work that comes with putting in reviews with all the stories that are in your forum. But don't generalize like that, that all newbies won't listen or need to calm down because you think they're getting riled up. Throughout the mesh of authors who won't listen is someone who actually will. Not all new members are exactly new to the “forum” game – a few might actually be well-known in one forum but not anywhere else, and they certainly don't need to be talked down to or told to “calm it down” just because they do not agree with the majority.

This brings me to my next point. I've seen things like this “Give it a rest, [name]” or “I'm going to wait for someone experienced (aka a veteran) member to review me” because some of you seem stuck on the notion that veteran = knows all (and that certainly isn't the case; I've read posts that I highly disagreed with in the brainstorming threads) and newbie = moron (again, that's certainly not the case). Even if the new member gives off an air that he knows what he is talking about, the opinion doesn't carry as much weight as a veteran's. Any member wants to feel like they're being set on equal footing; they don't want to be talked down to, coddled, what have you. Even if you think their opinion is stupid, even if you are tired of the argument, treat these people like you treat anyone else: with respect. If you continue to tell people “Give it up, ______”, then your forum isn't going to be a welcoming place except within the clique you formed.

Saying things like that also doesn't avoid conflict; it only adds drama, which makes the topic change, and, quite possibly, annoys the person. You guys seem super paranoid about conflict. Conflict is a great thing; it calls out for certain changes, improvements, whatever, and as long as you keep it civil, keep your tone neutral (not condescending, angry, haughty, etc.), then a consensus will eventually be made. Yes, you may get upset, or angry, but try to keep the emotions to a minimum in your posts and then vent to a friend or your pillow buddy if needed. This requires actually understanding what is being said in each post. Give each post a chance. You may not like the person, but you may like what is being said.

Originally Posted by JX Valentine

Before anyone can take this, we need to answer one simple question: what goes into it? What kinds of things should happen in the lounge as opposed to the rest of the forum? What would be considered off-topic? Should the new Lounge be just for writing tips? Furthermore, how do we encourage member-to-member interaction so we don't end up just answering bold questions in one-liners and blowing off everyone else who doesn't lines in bold?

Don't narrow the focus that much so you can discuss a topic thoroughly. Or don't just move onto the next bold topic so quickly. Bold topics are great for the sake of framing and allows another person to get to another person better, but they usually don't expand past a single answer from the poster, not unless someone stirs it up with a bizarre response.

Heh, controversial questions (WHAT YOU THINK 'BOUT CANON is a good one) tend to get more response feedback. As long as you keep it civil, you should be fine. Post it more as a ... hmm. A muse, moreso, than an attack. Forum hot (topical) topics also tend to get a lot of response. I mean, just look at this thread, or the FFL posts about this topic. Lots of response about one central topic.

Jokes are great because the keep the FFL a relaxing and fun place. I wouldn't say limit it to just writing topics. People are intrigued by other people. YA RLY. That is, of course people want to know people behind the user name. I certainly do. It's why I usually talk to people outside the forum context at the forum I currently lurk at. Do you have stories that you can relate to the topic somehow? Stuff like that. The more important thing is knowing when to draw the line and to keep the fanfiction lounge about, well, fanfiction. Or writing. Or grammar. Whatever.

I honestly do have to ask this, and this is strictly because I really don't know the inner detail about what's going on. You all seem aware of some sort of problem (is this just newbies not reading stickies, or something more? I'm not all that sure). But at the same time, do you think the forum requires changing – at least to this extent? Why? What benefits do you think will happen once you do make these changes? Will the community become a more open, friendlier place? Will the forum revert back to its original, glory state? And what exactly was that “state” anyway?

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to “improve the environment,” but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

[An-chan]

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

I disagree with the "leading nowhere"-part. If it makes you chase it, if it's entirely unnecessary and distracting, then it's a plot bunny. I think it's almost perfectly interchangeable with "plot idea", the only difference being that a plot bunny implies a much shinier, more distracting idea. It's also catchy, and I say the thread should be named as it is.

Other than that, let's see what I have to comment about...

Well, for one thing, I dislike the idea of Official Mentors for the review-a-review thing. To me, it seems like another way to promote the vets and widen the gap between veterans and newbies. And, from what I gather, that's pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish here. To be honest, I find the whole idea of reviewing reviews a bit futile, as it is a highly personal thing what kind of reviews one wants to read or write, but on the other hand, it could turn out to be very useful, so I don't know.

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

Frankly, my friends, I think you keep drifting away from the original problem. Yes, this is a revolution, but this should be something the whole writing community does together for the whole writing community. You seem to keep drifting back to what veterans can do for veterans in this revolution. Think of the newbies! How would you feel, right now, coming to all this after just having discovered the section/fanfiction in general/the fandom/whatever? Try to focus on what's really important, and this could actually go somewhere.

And sorry I haven't been here before, I kinda have these pesky entrance exams to study for.

Now, you may proceed to beat me up.

[Silawen]

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

I have to agree. The idea of having to write a minimum amount of reviews to get a shiny badge just doesn't sit well with me, especially because it could lead to more of a veteran/newbie divide. This is something that would be much easier to achieve for veterans - who have experience here and have reviewed a lot more often - than it would be for new arrivals.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

(Asking for any amount of posts for an emblem always rubbed me the wrong way, because some people simply have more time than others and it certainly doesn't make them more capable at reviewing. I'm a teacher, I don't have a lot of outside time, but I do spend a lot of time on my reviews. Am I therefore a worse reviewer than someone who manages to write two in the same time-span? I'd like to think not. Reviewing should be about quality, not enforced quantity. I wouldn't want to feel forced to write a certain amount of reviews if I wanted an emblem.)

Those who received the emblem could then be mentioned in the sticky - or normal thread, whatever is decided on - regarding this subject, preferably with reasoning as to why their review was chosen. That way people are shown examples of what constitutes as a good review and they could be inspired to start reviewing as well. This way they won't have to first write dozens of reviews before even qualifying. It urges people to review - because they have an immediate goal to strive for - and won't create such a divide between people because the emblem was giving for a review and not the reviewer or his post count.

[bobandbill]

^ That. That that that. Now I have read above on this reviewer thing... yeah, the 'needs to make a minimum amount of reviews' thing and whatnot doesn't sit well with me (and I for one never care about fancy stuff like emblems anyways =P). After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

Well, first off, you'd need to do a grammar check. I saw a couple of typos in there. : P

Yeah, I'm aware of that. XD I was too tired to go through it again/not in the mindset to proofread something I just wrote bar the more obvious mistakes. Actually I might go fix that/attempt to do so soon...

Seriously though, it seems like a good summary; however, I did notice that you used the term 'plot bunny' an awful lot. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

"Plot idea" and "plot bunny" are not interchangable terms; are you treating the thread as an idea-sharing thread or an "Okay, I've got this cool idea I can't use, what do I do" thread?

...as the others said I thought that plot bunny meant plot idea... and definately is for ideas people may/intend to use for a fic they'll write rather than give away necessarily. =P

Of course as said the thread title/term used could be changed but eh.

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to “improve the environment,” but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

Breezy, I suppose you basically hit all of the problems on the head - all that with the vibe and the clique-y feel and so forth - and that's the main things that I don't feel were about a few years back.

Of course addressing and 'fixing' it completely is a different matter...

[Mizan de la Plume Kuro]

Eh... I'm feeling a bit stupid now for doing the rest of the thread before reading the posts here. While I agree with An-Chan on that the RpM thing might just widen the vet-noob rift, I'm going to address a related issue in response to that.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

Total agreement here, but there was a time --and it still is-- where the FF Community here at PC lacks in the reviews section. I'm sure vets and the like can knock up a spectacular review in half and hour or so for a fic and this happens at least once a day for one fic, but what about all the other twenty or so fics on the page that barely get a single review? For certain people, the temptation to do a long review is there and I'm sure that nobody has the time to do twenty-one long reviews a day. I've addressed the issue where rank emblems would be considered cheap, but I really couldn't put my finger on what was quality and what wasn't so I decided on a really lax criteria for the emblem from what Astinus said on what counted as reviews.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these rank emblems weren't to award people for quality reviews. They were initially devised to get people to actually do reviews and stop everyone from slacking off into oblivion. The actual reviewer's emblem, was the one to award quality reviews.

Also, a bit more on what An-Chan said about statistics, post count does the same thing actually not that I completely disagree with what you said. Also, it's actually a hidden incentive because, from a psychological perspective, there's something vaguely exciting about seeing your numbers rise. That's why penny arcade games were so popular way back when.

After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

I couldn't agree with you more, but at the moment, on the front page, I can really only see three or four constant reviewers and only one out of those four people can be considered a quality reviewer.

Anyway, because I'd feel wasted if I didn't actually post the thread draft here for comments, here it is.

Spoiler:

The Wall of Reviewers

Welcome and General Info
Welcome to the wall of reviewers where we record the community’s best, and most frequent reviewers that offer helpful advice for the betterment of others. As you may or may not know, depending on how long you’ve been in the business, the writing community can be best summed up into three parts; the writers, the readers, and the reviewers. There’s a gray area at where we have quality reviewers and just regular readers, but for the most part it’s easy to differentiate between the two. Basically, a reviewer is one who comments on fics(Fiction/Fanfiction) and leaves a constructive comment that is aimed towards helping the writer improve upon his writing skills and a reader is one who leaves a constructive comment detailing what he liked about the fic and not necessarily stating how it could be improved upon. To recap; a reader comments(constructively) on what he liked, and a reviewer tells the writer what he likes(not essential) and helps the writer improve by picking out certain mistakes and giving comments on how they could be fixed.

What’s with the thread? Is there a point?
The thread, as you may know if you’ve been frequenting the Writer’s lounge, is the reviewer’s equivalent of the fanfiction announcement thread with a twist. Basically, any reviews that you may have done recently, you post here and I’ll take down your username and how many reviews you’ve done so far plus a review-per-month figure that shows (surprise-surprise) how many reviews you do per month.

Review-per-Month?
The review-per-month(RpM) number is the number that shows how may reviews you do per month. RpM is calculated using this formula:
(Number of Reviews)/(Months since first review recorded in the WoR thread)= xRpM

Don’t worry though, I’ll do the math.

Rules
Because if not, you kids(where applicable)/older people(where applicable)/guys(where applicable)/gals(where applicable)/aliens(where applicable)/veterans(where applicable)/newbies(where applicable) would make my life a hell of a lot harder if you followed your own set of rules.

Spoiler:

1) All forumwide PC rules apply here.

2) No SPAM, no exceptions. This also includes Spam, the canned meat.

3) No asking for reviewers for your fic. Only post links to reviews and not the whole, actual review.

4) Use this format:

Fic Title:
Link: [post=#######]Type of Review and for which chapter(where applicable)(Optional)[/post]
Date: dd/mm/yy

5) Remember that review calculations are made from the first review recorded in this thread. All calculations are done per calendar month (pcm). This means:

If member xposts review A in the thread, dated 08/07, did another review B and recorded it in the thread, dated (the current date: eg: 08/10); then, his RpM number would be (Number of reviews)/[Difference between Aug 2010 and Aug 2007] which would become: 2rev/36mths = 1/12 = 0.08 RpM. And that wouldn’t really look good now would it?

If member y posts review A, B, C, D, E, and F in the thread dated 05/10, then his RpM value would be 6.00 RpM. If y then proceeded to post another seven reviews the following month (06/10), it would be added to his previous month’s reviews and the number of months added by how many months have passed since the date of the first review. This would then make y’s {[6(Reviews A-F)+7(Reviews in 06/10 )]/2[Calendar months since first review]} RpM at 13/2 = 6.5 RpM.

6)Do not edit review links, except for the occasional typo, after 24 hours. Chances are, I’ve already checked and I won’t recheck. If for whatever reason I reject your entry, repost do not edit your previous post.


*Note that the code for linking to a specific post and still being able to view the whole thread is [post=(click on that number on your post that denotes what post it is and take the longer number. eg:

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=5723370&postcount=2

)]Stuff[/post]

And why the hell do we do this?
This question pops up sooner or later. Why do we review fics? The answer is simple; it’s because we want to help other writer’s improve on their skills. Sometimes however, this isn’t enough so PC’s FF Community decided to spice things up a bit and came up with a few, shall we say, incentives for reviewers to actually want something to commend their reviewing efforts. And what are these incentives of which I speak you ask? Well, since we’re not made up of money and we can’t make everyone and their grandmother a mod, then we all had the brilliant idea of handing out these sexy emblems, courtesy of Master Artist txteclipse and Mistress of Graphics Giratina, as a reward for consistent and or quality reviews.

Ooh, emblems... Gimme nao!
There are currently five emblems linked to the F&W Section of PC. Four of these, are linked to reviews. Of these four, three are requestable.
These emblems, in order of ascending worth and how to get them are:

Bronze Reviewer’s Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 3(Three) Months. This means at least 30 reviews in three months.


Silver Reviewer’s Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 5(Five) Months. This means at least 50 reviews in five months.


Gold Reviewer’s Emblem
Awarded for maintaining a 10 RpM quota for a period of 7(Seven) Months. This means at least 70 reviews in seven months.


The Reviewer’s Emblem (Non-requestable.)
Awarded for consistent, excellent quality reviews, that surpasses the quality of teaching here at the Pokecommunity.

NB: A member does not necessarily need a rank emblem in order to attain ‘The Reviewer’s Emblem’ since it’s measured on quality of reviews. However, all three rank emblems are dependent on the rank below them. For example, if you qualify for the Gold Emblem, you also qualify for the silver and Bronze emblem since you have passed that quota. All reviews that qualify towards rank emblems need to follow a loose criteria.


Quality of Reviews
Since we don’t want every Tom, (Name is probably censored, but if you’re familiar with the saying then you should know.), and Harry to have an emblem, lest it be considered cheap, reviews need to contain these few criteria in order for me to accept them into calculations.

Reviews must point out specific elements in a fic and be able to correct it if wrong.

Reviews must point out specific elements in a fic and be able to give suggestions on how to improve if there’s not much that’s wrong.

Reviews must be helpful and not too snarky*.

*Snarky is defined as being excessively rude to the point of causing discomfort.

For Example:
Member SakuraXSyaoran posts a review with the following:

Originally Posted by SakuraXSyaoran

It was a nice fic. I really enjoyed your description and characterization.

This is not a review merely an acceptable comment because said member pointed out something vaguely specific, but did not give any notes on how to improve.


Member RegisFan24 posts a review with the following:

Originally Posted by RegisFan24

OMG Lolz, it’s so freaking awesome. Write moar plz!!!

Unacceptable review and unacceptable comment on fic. Member did not point out anything specific.


Member VetFiccer posts a review with the following:

Originally Posted by VetFiccer

I really liked your fic and how you portrayed the character interactions. While it may be alright, I feel that you can improve on it slightly by changing Azora’s personality to be cheery because he seems a bit too stoic for his age. Furthermore, your description is superb albeit slightly redundant as with this part,

Also, fix this part because you’re missing a few quote marks and dialogue tags.
“ Eat lead!” he screamed.

Acceptable review. Note that the member has pointed out a specific element and suggested an improvement.


Member n00bExtraordinaire posts a review with the following:

Originally Posted by n00bExtraordinaire[/quote

OMG, you’re writing may be good, but your description and plot sucks. Like in paragraph 2 you could at least add some conflict you dolt. Come on, this is the worst piece of clichéd trash I’ve seen. In chapter 4, you have him running up and down a cliff, but you could also have him fight the creatures. I mean, they’re right there for god’s sake.

Unacceptable review. Note that while said member did point out specific elements and how to improve them, he was excessively snark..


Example of a post in this thread

Fic: Emerald’s Chaotic Enigma
Link: [post=######]Character review for chapter 3[/post]
Date: 02/12/09

Remember that you may post old reviews, but bear in mind that it’ll affect your RpM.

With that in mind…
Go forth and review!

Special Thanks
JX “Jax” Valentine, for spearheading the project.
Astinus, the Mod of F&W for allowing the thread’s creation.
txteclipse, the artist for the ___ emblem(s).
Giratina, the artist for the ___ emblem(s).
Various members who contributed to Project Max Revive.

Spoiler:

Wall of Reviewers

All figures subject to scrutiny. VM me for suggestions, corrections, or if you think I miscalculated your RpM. RpM figures are to 3 significant figures including zero.

Gold Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Silver Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Bronze Emblem Worthy
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

Notable Mentions
{Member and Link to member} - ­­___RpM (x Total Reviews. y Calendar months since first recorded review.)

[Bay Alexison]

Urgh, need some catching up to do. Dang school. >.>;

Hm, since no one really commented on bobandbill's plot bunny draft, I'm going to real quick. Besides the typos Giratina mentioned, everything else is looking good. However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?

As for the reviewers emblem/minimum reviews thing, bobandbill, Silawen, and An-chan already mentioned the flaws of it, mostly on the veterans-newbie gap. So yeah, they said it much better than I could.

Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

There's also one thing I want to add while reading your draft:

Basically, a reviewer is one who comments on fics(Fiction/Fanfiction) and leaves a constructive comment that is aimed towards helping the writer improve upon his writing skills and a reader is one who leaves a constructive comment detailing what he liked about the fic and not necessarily stating how it could be improved upon. To recap; a reader comments(constructively) on what he liked, and a reviewer tells the writer what he likes(not essential) and helps the writer improve by picking out certain mistakes and giving comments on how they could be fixed.

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

[Mizan de la Plume Kuro]

Originally Posted by Bay Alexison

Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

Just saying that I'm not the only one who's finding the lack of reviews a problem by the way. Saying this just because if it seems like I'm having a personal campaign to get people to do more reviews and everyone else doesn't care about it. If memory serves, Jax mentioned the lack of review thing so yeah... Anyway, while I agree with what you're saying about quality over quantity, I feel that we really need to come up with a compromise here. On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews.

It's updated monthly and reviews are posted in the thread so I know what to check. People who don't post reviews in the thread, I won't check so I'm not wasting my time. I'm basically following claim thread format so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do.

/Agreement because time is also a restraint to me...

What does Astinus feel about this matter though?

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

I totally get where you're coming from and I'm tempted to change it, but then we could say that every proper post in the F&W qualifies as a review because all posts are meant to be constructive anyway and everyone who comments is basically pointing out something specific (not overly specific) that he likes.

And uh, sorry if you feel like I'm antagonizing your views on the subject, but I'm not because you're the only one to comment on the draft as of yet. Thanks.

[JX Valentine]

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro

On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide. The reason why is because a lot of these criteria can be covered in revisions I know need to be made to Reviewing and You. It's egotistical, yes, but I've looked at my guide long enough to know exactly what's wrong with it. That and there's a lot on the subject a person probably can't cover in the first post of something that's meant to be a reviewing activity and not a reviewing, well, guide.

And even then, we've already begun to discuss (albeit on the rules thread, although there's smatterings of it on both the FFL and this one) what is and isn't a good review. A review is just something that points out something specific about the story and states what the reader thought about it honestly. It doesn't have to be pages upon pages long, but I agree that it's not really a one-liner either. It can be, at the very bare minimum, just a paragraph that states, "Oh, I really liked what you did in this chapter. These parts struck me in particular." No corrections necessary. No pages. No deconstruction of a fic. Just pure, simple honesty in a nutshell.

Of course, the new guide would also go into more detail once that bottom line is established, but.

As for the lack of reviewers, yes, I said that there was a distinct lack of them. As in, the FFL had this fun little tendency of not doing anything but sit around and go on and on about Sentrets with flamethrowers or something. However, this isn't like the people-don't-read-stickies problem where there's one pretty simple solution (when you get right down to it, at least). There's probably a completely different way of going about doing it, but we'll need to take a good look at every possible system. A few people have already said that emblems and a NaReWriMo will both have very serious problems. In that case, let's put aside those ideas for now and try to come up with a different solution.

So, let's start by approaching the problem in a different direction. Why don't you (in general) review? Is it because of a lack of time? If we establish the idea that a review only has to be a paragraph or a handful of things you can spot right off the bat, would that make you review more? If not, what would?

In other words, I'll have to thank you for your work, Mizan, but let's pull back for now and work on the foundation again before we do anything else.

[Mizan de la Plume Kuro]

Originally Posted by JX Valentine

This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide.

I assumed you meant the actual thread, not a draft. I guess I was wrong so my apologies.

[bobandbill]

*bump*

Well anyone else still alive? =P Let's keep this moving, shall we?

Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot (and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it.

And anything else to say about the beta thread posted above in a spoiler on this page no matter how insignificant? I've half a mind to post it so might as well do all of the necessary edits in one go rather than chopping and changing. Such as on Bay's mention on this:

However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?