It's Time For Change: S&M Revival Starts NOW

[Anti]

Over the past several months, dating all the way back to the aftermath of Platinum's release, this forum has been in decline in both activity and in quality. The S&M staff has tried to combat the problem with various measures, from the Shoddy Lounge to metagame & suspect discussion threads to Community Night. All of these measures have, to varying extents, failed. For the staffers and regulars who care about S&M, this decay has been pretty painful to watch. This thread is here to finally reverse the decline of the forum.

This thread is for established members of the S&M community to work together to fix our forum. This thread is here to be the place for an honest discussion about every single problem that our forum has, from fundamental to very specific, and to go about solving them in a positive way. First, we must identify what went wrong and why it went wrong. This forum and, if we are to really be thorough, the S&M community, are fundamentally different than they were when things were going better. What has changed? Why has caused these changes? How do we reverse the negative effects of these changes? That is what this thread is for.

We are allowing criticism of virtually everything imaginable. In order to promote honesty, posts in this thread will not be in danger of infraction unless there is an extremely flagrant case of disrespect. As long as no one is singled out specifically, you are allowed to be as candid as you would like to be. Indeed, that is the whole purpose of this thread. We must be honest with ourselves and one another or we ultimately will not be able to solve anything. As gut-wrenching as ripping our own forum might turn out to be, we must confront the harsh reality of our forum so that we can do something about it.

But make no mistake, this thread is not for bashing "bad members" and blaming them for everything or simply venting out pessimism and melancholy. At this point, we all understand the dire state of our forum. Once you think you have identified our problems, please do post them, but there is a difference between that and simply feeling sorry for ourselves. This must be constructive. Similarly, "bad members" do indeed exist, but they have always been around even when S&M was much more active and fun. Let's not try to blame a few people who are ultimately pretty insignificant for the many difficult problems we face.

As long as we all are respectful and understand that everything we post should have a purpose that helps to get us closer to fixing our forum, we expect this thread to run about as smoothly as a thread of this nature possibly can. Things must remain civil. If they do not, we will have to lock the thread, and we will truly be lost and defeated. This thread is going to work. It has to.

If you have any questions, PM a moderator or myself before posting. Thank you.

[Dark Azelf]

Well for a start we need to stop calling people "bad" like we did with Pokedra, even if it was a joke and be kinda more friendly. XD

Tutoring thingy needs to be embraced more to increase our user base.

Tourneys, BIG forum wide ones to increase interest in this section. With a forum wide announcement so people know about it lol

(01:35:52) ~Aura: I mean, it's called "Pokecommunity"
(01:35:56) ~Aura: we should do moar pokemoning

This is a good point. We are a community too so we should get everyone involved.

Originally Posted by me

I also think we should add a star rating system for threads they have in other forums to put on RMT's and a rmt archive to encourage people to post GOOD teams in S+M and just encourage them in general.

wolf says (22:08):
*also after reading doug's post in the recent flame war thread, we could have s&m contributer emblems and people ~might~ contribute more i guess (since emblems could be one the reasons why the gt tour was active...?)


Emblems ? More shameless advertising of server ?

Just some ideas here really that have been suggested.

[Constantinople]

I think we should analyze how the section got to this point. Now, I have my theory, and someone's may be different, but this is what I have observed over the past 2-3 years. I personally believe that this all began just after the Smarties/Purfugly era. The section had gotten pretty uncontrollable, as we all know. Luke was modded and D_A shortly afterward. When the new rules were implemented, S&M was heading for an all-time high. After the worsening spam/flaming of 2006 and 2007, S&M finally had some strict procedures to keep it in line.

However, S&M reached a peak at some point during the time when Luke was smod and D_A & BeachBoy were mods for S&M. Shortly afterward, some members started little by little losing interest in S&M (and Smarties had been inactive anyway) so the rules started taking a toll. The thread approval rule really damaged the section at this point, as many threads took up to a day to be approved and by then were 5-6 threads down on the list, possibly not even getting rated once because of the aforementioned loss of interest.

And many members were being scared away by the rules - whether they were fair or not, this is true. As the rule-breaking members (I say this only because I have no other way to categorize them) left, there were fewer raters and fewer teams to rate. And this just seems to be a vicious cycle because the fewer teams there are to rate, the less often people rate, and the less often people rate, the less often RMTs are posted.

So now the rules are a lot more lenient. We don't want another 2007, but we certainly don't want a 2009. So perhaps we should find a way to keeps things in order without adding all of the old rules back.

Also, there were numerous problems with the attempts to revive S&M's activity. They were all great ideas, but the problem is that there weren't enough people to initiate them at the time of their proposal. They may be useful tools for later on, but right now I guess the best thing everyone can do is post more teams and rate more teams. I'll try to think of some ideas, though.

[Anti]

As someone who has been here awhile, I remember what it was like when this forum was more active and more fun. To me, fun is the real key. If we were a little inactive but everything else was great, things wouldn't be so bad IMO.

But this place is pretty inactive. I think that the key is the activity in the forum itself of the regulars. I'll admit right now that I'm guilty of this as much as anyone. Just look at S&M right now. There are definitely RMTs there, but they're not being rated by members who would call themselves regulars. Really, they're hardly being rated at all. D_A has talked about how a lot of cool users have left or have become inactive, but we have survived that before. The difference is that people took their places, and that isn't happening anymore. I can't find any way to possibly blame the randoms who post for this when it is us who don't rate their teams. And indeed, some of them aren't very well presented or lack necessary information or whatever, but this was true in the past. When I think back to "2007 Anti," I definitely remember a noob in every sense of the word. We all started out like the people who we now often make fun of. I feel like our forum's ability to bring in new members relies mostly on bringing up new, inexperienced players. We will have truly succeeded when a player as bad as 2007 Anti can come in here and become 2010 Anti. Honestly, I feel like 2007 Anti showing up today would end in him having just gone to some other forum.

So how do we get from here to there? I feel like as regulars we should just own up to the fact that (generally speaking, there are exceptions) we haven't carried our weight and we should work to rate teams. Of course, it is no coincidence that our decline started after the Platinum metagame replaced late DP, and fewer people battling was excusable enough. But now we have Gen V. Now we even have Advance. The one great limiting factor of the past, the terrible metagame, is gone. So now, I think we should put on our big girl panties and start getting involved again. Yes, I know that I myself am probably the person who needs to follow that the most, so I'm being pretty hypocritical, but I'm definitely willing to turn that around and I think that we all should be. If that happens, maybe a few noobish members with potential will start to stick around and we can bring back what was just as responsible for making S&M fun in 2007 as the early DP metagame was, which was the community.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I feel like the sense of community has diminished greatly. S&M has always had a reputation as a noob forum full of flame wars, even in the "good old days." But then, we were united in how much we sucked. D_A and especially Luke can attest to this (he's the one who had to put up with us!). Again, I definitely feel a sense of guilt here, as the self-proclaimed "good members" group which I have always felt that I am a part of has always been pretty condescending, even if sometimes we have just been joking, and I definitely feel like Vance-style antics haven't been very beneficial. I don't really think this is something that we can just fix in a few months like maybe our other problems are. I feel like we should just, as a community, make sure that new users feel like they're at home. That's what kept me here. I can only speak of my own experience, but that's also what in large part made me a little less enthusiastic about being here. To put this in more clear terms, I feel like we should treat the new promising users in the the exact opposite way that we (especially me, this more than anything I feel pretty guilty about) treated Pokedra. Maybe then our reputation will be a little less deserved.

Back to user involvement, my opinion on that is pretty strong, and it was largely formed during the Shoddy Lounge era. For those who don't know (I feel old just feeling like I have to type this sentence, haha), the Shoddy Lounge was the old subforum that was basically a tournament forum, but no one really participated. The community as a whole failed to get matches done despite the very long deadline of one week. I feel like that's the kind of thing that perfectly shows what has gone wrong. We have had the same problem with virtually every other "activity booster" that the staff has tried to put in motion. If we can get a solid base of new young users from actually being active in the forum, I think those failed measures of the past could work. Until then, I don't really see any point, but I feel like we can use those failures as a "teaching moment." If we can turn the previous problems I mentioned around, I feel like the problems we traditionally associate with S&M like "hey look ComNight just failed x____x" will take care of themselves. And then we could maybe bring that stuff back...

So yeah, that's my prescription. Feel free to bash me for being guilty of most everything I mentioned above, lol.

[Sean13]

As much as I haven't been active/lurking around the forums, I'll just throw some stuff out there.

• You could start of by making another sub-forum for RMTs, as this section of the forum does not seem to be a RMT section, therefore people will not look here. 'Strategies and Movesets' - First thing that comes up to my mind is what good leads are there, what pokes work together for strategies, and for movesets well... -Looks at Lukes thread that is a stickie- I don't really look at this forum as a moveset forum because of that stickie lol..
• Encourage people to post. Most people are aware of trolling and you should mention that trolling is forbidden to raise popularity.
• Make more threads GOING ON THE SUBJECT OF THE SUBFORUM. The stickies do too much, period.

I'll add more later, cbf'd thinking atm.
EDIT; this is crap, making a better post soon.

[Constantinople]

Originally Posted by Sean13

• You could start of by making another sub-forum for RMTs, as this section of the forum does not seem to be a RMT section, therefore people will not look here. 'Strategies and Movesets' - First thing that comes up to my mind is what good leads are there, what pokes work together for strategies, and for movesets well... -Looks at Lukes thread that is a stickie- I don't really look at this forum as a moveset forum because of that stickie lol..
• Encourage people to post. Most people are aware of trolling and you should mention that trolling is forbidden to raise popularity.
• Make more threads GOING ON THE SUBJECT OF THE SUBFORUM. The stickies do too much, period.

I'll add more later, cbf'd thinking atm.

Well, the Strategies and Movesets would include RMTs, which are a collection of 6 movesets on a team. The point is that you can post any kind of competitive discussion in the main forum, and ask for in-game help in the subforum. It wouldn't really make any sense to have a subforum for essentially what the main forum is for. Also, people are encouraged to post, hence the lack of thread approval and lessened rules. Trolling is explicitly forbidden by the rules so there's no need to mention it. I don't understand the third suggestion though.

[Wolflare]

Sorry if this a bit repetitive... By the way, I'll probably have more ideas after I think about it more.

In my opinion, the main two reasons S&M died is because of Platinum being a bad metagame, and regulars warding off new members. Of course, the bad metagame is gone now so that isn't a problem. I do think regulars should be nicer to new members instead of trolling every new member all the time, stop quoting dumb posts when they could just be deleted or something, and so on. That type of stuff makes S&M seem more intimidating, which is why a lot of people I see/know don't post here. This is the biggest issue in my opinion.

Tutor system should be announced more and such, so that people who are willing to be active in S&M but have poor battling skills join S&M (if I recall correctly, ~12 people wanted to be tutored when we first had the tutor system). Also, I'm pretty sure we did get Vrai because of tutoring too. We also need more tutors so if someone is busy (which is why I had to close mine...and I already had like four people wanting to be tutored within a few days of it being posted), we have enough tutors to fill their places for the time being. That could be fixed by regulars stop being lazy and battling more (I will soon lol). We could also have some guides to help with getting into gen 5 so that we don't have repeat ourselves when explaining team building and such. And it was confusing when I first "plunged" (lol) into gen 5. Though, that's already being fixed with the threat list, speed tiers, Dream World ability list, etc, but we could probably have a team builder guide too.

We could also have a fun event, advertise it more than the past events (i.e. like the MotY notice) to get the entire community's attention, which could mean more interest in gen 5 battling and also new members (if we are nicer). Actually, I think we got a few new members from the Get-Together Shoddy tournament, but I'm not sure if I should list them because I don't know if you consider them bad or good. But, I guess we should wait until we have a larger user base since the past CNs failed and such? Also, we could have more tours in the Battle Stadium (I know you hate them, but at least most regulars actually battle when they're posted). Really...just have more interesting stuff in Battle Stadium instead of having...two tours and like one dead league. Having more discussions could work as well sometime once S&M is less dead as well, since S&M isn't called the "RMT forum" after all.

Also, emblem for members who have more than 200 posts in S&M lol just kidding.

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

More shameless advertising of server ?

We've advertised the server enough to be honest lol. :x

Edit: I agree that more people rating teams would give us more new members, and just make the forum more active.

[Opposite Day]

I guess I'm what one would call one of S&M's "regulars", so if it's okay with you, I'd like to share my impressions of S&M, what my stay has been like, and what I think went wrong. (most likely with some annoying grammatical errors as well, heavy repeats of the same things etc etc etc)

Firstly, note that even though I've been a member of PC for 2 1/2 years, and that my interest for competitive pokemon got sparked up not very long after my join date (mainly due to battle logs), I barely posted anything in S&M until about a year ago.
Why is that, may you ask? Well, thing was, I never posted unless I saw a strict opportunity where I could correct someone on basis of not «following the rules», where they had made a typo in the nature of the mon etc etc, in other words, I made posts that, while they could not necessarily be corrected, barely contributed / helped out the user as well. Why did I do this? Because S&M was so GODDAMN intimidating. I saw how other new users were treated, for instance, Pokedra, and I had the impression that if I were to actually learn how to play this new game, S&M would be one of the worst places to begin simply because the impression I got was, that if you posted something wrong, you would get infracted, turn into yet another butt-monkey, and get discouraged from showing your “face” in that section ever again.

My solution to this dilemma? Read close to everything on smogon's strategydex, THEN challenge random people in the battle stadium to battles using borrowed teams from other users. These battles may not have been the “cream of the cream” (as you would say in norwegian), but at least they helped me build up some confidence that if I were to battle vs. other people on shoddy it might not go horribly horribly wrong.

This simple fact, that I realized that I actually stood a chance, was what made me finally overcome my fear for the S&M section and that made me what you could call an active member. (Not being kicked off the shoddy chat immediately after joining also did its part to giving me the feeling that I'd been accepted...) Now, this might not be the very obvious way to start. New users will either just post their team and hope for some (positive) criticism, or join the shoddy/po server using a team consisting of their favourite mons, battle someone, and leave regardless of the result.

I guess everything needs a starting point, but we cannot expect them to turn up with “Team Astral Projection v. 2.0”. Remember, it is after all quite unreasonable for us to expect new people to try to put their entire mind into this, especially considering that they might not necessarily know if they want to be doing this at all. Most things in life require effort, including building a good team for comp.pokes, but we seem to forget that even not very good teams most likely has thought and effort put into them.

S&M shouldn't be all about “insult or get insulted”, as previously implied, but that isn't even necessarily the case anymore. What I feel like it's like now is more like a case of “everything is getting ignored”. At the very least, when you are posting something and getting insulted, you might possibly take that as a personal motivation in order to improve yourself and put the insulter to shame. If no one cares or even notices, why the hell would anyone try to make a second RMT? We can't blame the lack of activity on the new posters, one quick glance at the first page reveals that we do actually have quite a bit of RMT's floating around, yet no one replies to them barring other new posters and DA. (Sometimes a regular pops in and tells them that the team isn't following the standard format as well ~__~ )

Of course, most of the RMT's are not going to be amazing. But if we don't help them to get better, they'll either take ages in order to gain the confidence to actually do something (like me), or they'll just leave because, well, they did their part, but no one bothered to follow it up. The description of the S&M forum does after all say “Post your team lineups, get your team rated or rate other teams”

I've been here for one year, and I've experienced nothing but platinum, platinum, and platinum. Now that B&W has finally arrived, I hope that you'll all help showing me what S&M was like before, especially the part that made it fun. (not that I've bored my way through platinum, mind you. I'll probably nostalgia about it for years to come)

And if there's any new users out there that's reading this, know that it is okay to lose. Indeed, even though my very first battle ended up in a win, it was because I stole a stall team from the S&M section, and I barely managed to survive even with a threat list that said what to do if pokemon “x or y” appeared. Everyone has to start at one point, but once you've gotten the hang of playing competitive pokemon, it'll likely only go one way – upwards (and if it doesn't, you may just send me a PM and I'll try to help in w/e way I can ;DDDD)

So in short, I agree with DA that we should really try to be more friendly (shouldn't be that hard), and I'm partly into the Anti's death camp of “forced rating”. The new ones are doing what they should do, it is up to the regulars to actually do their part if S&M are to be more active than it has been during my stay. COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK IN PRACTICE, dammit

(also anti how much time do you spend on writing these walls of text lol)


EDIT: Also, I'm really agreeing with Wolf about focusing on "fun events". S&M, WHY SO SERIOUS

[Anti]

Just my reaction to a few things...

First of all, I think it's clear that we all just have to be nicer. I think everyone agrees on that.

I would like to explain the intent of the tutoring program though. When I thought it up (the new one, the older one was just "4 activity" lol ) it was for the sole purpose of counteracting the trend of no one rating teams and helping out, the one Oppo just described as well. I think Wolf's point is interesting because I too got requests...the interest is there, we just have to make use of it. I can't really tutor Gen V (yet) though, so I think it would be splendid if other people stepped forward.

(20:40:58) +Dark Azelf: but how are we actually gonna
(20:41:02) +Dark Azelf: like MAKE it active
(20:41:04) +Dark Azelf: lol

I feel like this becomes the primary question. Of course, it really won't be if we don't follow through with actually not being trolls/mean people/words I'll get infracted for saying!!!!! But yeah, assuming we all understand the need and urgency of cleaning up our image...

For me, it all starts at the core of the forum--team rating. I went over this in my first post so I won't rehash it. The important thing is putting it into practice though. I didn't want it to come off as "forced rating--Anti's death camp," but more that we should all just be more aware that we have to take ownership of this forum's future ourselves. For the first time in over two years, we have a playable metagame (actually more if you count the Advance metagames). As B&W's English release nears and then happens, we will probably get the same activity boost that I believe we did for Gen 4.

As many of us have said, there are plenty of RMTs in S&M right now, but it's a matter of rating them. As more activity comes, we should get even more. So how can we get ourselves to rate? If we have to force ourselves to do it, there won't be a point since coming on PC will be a pain.

First of all, I feel that we should lower our expectations. This goes along with being nicer and all that since perhaps this forum's biggest problem is in its mentality. The metagame was not the only thing to evolve dramatically in Gen 4: RMTs went from each Pokemon, its information, and a short description to all-out artistic presentations with full threat lists, custom sprites, colored fonts, and just an overall flashy presentation. That's the kind of thing that regulars do well, but newer users will NEVER put in that time or effort because they don't know to and it's a waste of their time anyway. Even with no descriptions there really isn't any reason to ignore or lock a thread. Yeah, it would be great if people actually read the rules, but the sooner we accept the reality that most new users won't, the better. I certainly didn't read them lol. Once we accept that the first RMTs (and even some of the subsequent ones) will be low quality, the better.

Similarly, I don't think that linking to the Smogon intro to competitive Pokemon (or even ours--yes, we have one) and then saying "yeah this team needs to be redone" is sufficient. If we put ourselves in the new user's shows for a second, how much could that really help? Okay, I know my team stinks. Now I read this article and it's a nice introduction but now what do I do? Read the Smogon strat dex? For some reason, I don't think that many new users will want to do that. That goes back to adapting to give even the worst noob (see: 2007 Anti) a good shot at getting better. Instead of that, we should fix the team that's given to us, still probably link to the competitive Pokemon intro, and explain not just how to fix the team but "where to go from here." Definitely a server plug isn't a bad idea. And if indeed we are nicer, they will have a friendly environment to get tutored up by everyone collectively. We all know that ultimately it's battling that gets you better, so why not tell new users that? Make fixes but invite them on the server to test. That's a positive for everyone involved.

I think it's clear that those of us who aren't really into Pokemon right now want to get back into it and will soon. Given that, we should be able to have an army of team raters. Old-timers like D_A and myself are/were (are in his case, were in mine) great team raters, so if any established regulars want to know "how to team rate," it's an easy lesson, and you'll find that it's very rewarding--that's not just lip service, it really is. And it's not supposed to be the death camp thing, as every member can't rate every team, but if you notice a team that has been neglected, it's a good idea to rate. That's ultimately how activity will be brought back IMO.

If and when our community is revived by new users and rejuvenated veterans (I hope to be one sooner rather than later), then I think that we can get into things like official tournaments and community nights and big tier discussion threads like the old Garchomp and Wobbuffet threads (except better hopefully lol).

Until then, I don't feel like we should just be "the RMT forum," as Wolf said. But we should remember that for now at least we are low in numbers and cannot realistically pull off anything big. I believe that D_A said that PO has a tournament function that we could put to good use. It would be like the old mini tourneys except we wouldn't need the thread. Small things like that sound like a better idea to me. Maybe a Pokemon of the week discussion thread or something...just to diversify the forum. I don't know. I think you guys probably have better ideas than me in that department.

[Wolflare]

For tutoring, we could have a program where BW regulars just explain the basics of BW instead of the advanced stuff. Basically, help them build a simple team and get into BW in general. Since, it will probably be a while before we have enough people that are actually good and know enough of BW to be a proper tutor. Sorry if that's confusing lol. I believe something like that has potential to give us new members.

We do have an rating team guide that we could update to make it better if it lacks anything. Then make an announcement or something similar for regulars, or just advertise on the server. Anyway, when we rate I think we should be more descriptive (like explaining why to change so and so) to new members unlike the usual regular's rates (or are they descriptive...?). While it takes more time, there will still be other regulars to rate other teams... I think this has already been stated but oh well.

We did have some mini-tours actually by the way. I think there should be announcement or edit the current server announcement to advertise them I guess. Other than these ideas, I can't think of anything else to get a larger user base other than remaking the Community Night or a big tournament like Aura said and posting a forum-wide announcement to get everyone's attention (S&M views: 2 x_x).

Oh and I like the Pokemon of the week idea a lot actually lol.

[FreakyLocz14]

Here's my two cents:

When I was a new member, people did give me too much. I don't want to name names, but I did feel like I was being written off as a n00b when I came to get into competitive battling. I quickly learned that it was all in good faith, but other new members might not catch onto that and feel disrespected. I like to make teams that use unorthodox sets using UU/NU Pokemon in OUl, etc., which may or may not end up being viable. I've also seen other people who do the same thing. Some people use lower-tired Pokemon in OU because they simply like that Pokemon. I've seen disrespect aimed at these people. There's nothing wrong with explaining why a Pokemon or a set is a bad idea, but I think that should be done in a constructive manner. There was also a time where Luke told me to get on the Shoddy server and the cussed me out. I mean, really?

The quoting bad posts trend might be seen as offensive. I know I've been quoted several times before and I actually find it funny, but I'm sure you can see how other members that are not familiar with S&M would take offense to it.

I think bringing back the thread approval rule would reduce the clutter of locked threads in the main forum, also.

[Constantinople]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

I think bringing back the thread approval rule would reduce the clutter of locked threads in the main forum, also.

The thread approval definitely needs to stay gone. The "clutter" of locked threads shouldn't be an issue compared to the extreme inactivity. If we try to bring back thread approval, especially right now, then we'll never get this section active again.

[Dark Azelf]

Honestly the thread approval was gross. It outlasted its welcome. Sure in 2007 spam pit it was nice but now, yeah its not needed. It wasnt even needed in 08 really, after flameland ended.

[.Aero]

So I read over...most of this thread (skimmed some parts of posts, but got the general idea), and I think wolf brought up a great point: We're all lazy. Quite honestly I see this as the leading contributor to the fact that S&M is dying (heck all battling on PC is mostly due to this). We've always got something else to do instead of battling, making teams, rating teams, making RMT's themselves. When no one battles, no one makes team, which means no one makes RMT's, which means no rates. It's a fact that we must face and some people just need to get back into things and start battling again. Some people have legitimate reasons not to battle right now, but I know DA, Syndrome, and myself are not the only ones with enough time to have a Gen 5 team. Now I have as much fun losing to DA constantly as much as the next guy, but sometimes we just need more variety. Facing the same people repeatedly gets tiring and makes me want to battle less. I face wolf sometimes, but rarely. And I face a couple randoms now and then, but there's not enough of them.

Another topic I want to bring up is the fact that I'm sort of scared nervous to rate teams. I feel like I can make a decent/good team myself, but I'm unsure as to how to rate a team because...well...you guys might just poke fun at me for a "bad" rate even if it isn't (if it were a good rate). :x It's a totally irrational fear, but it exists. I lurk a lot just viewing other rates and such, and what I would say generally matches up with their post, but I just don't feel it's safe to post what I think for fear of being looked at as a total nub. Now I've been around for over three years, and I consider myself an S&M regular, and I think of myself as above average when it comes to battling (as I win most ladder matches), but I just can't find an easy way to rate. Perhaps I should just post what I think anyway and if it's wrong, it's wrong and one of you guys can correct me until I learn to be perfect. :3

Also, a tutor program. This needs to come back and be more active. As mentioned numerous times, it can help build up newer members in hopes of turning them into regulars like us. Now if you all think I could, I wouldn't mind being a tutor (or at least a substitute tutor). I'm pretty sure I'm active enough to be one. Now I'm unsure as to how this should be organized, but I imagine there's going to be a thread much like the one that exists now...but not locked with just links to profiles. How does smogon's program work? Does it even work? o.o I feel we should base it off something that is successful.

Thread approval was good for keeping down the clutter, sure, but it's not worth it. I like it the way it is, even if threads don't provide all the necessary information. We could simply post asking for them to provide it, whereas if they don't get approval, they'll most likely give up entirely and move onto Smogon or some other site with RMT's. However, if we do post and say that we need more information to rate, we need to actually rate once that information is added in. I've done it a few times myself in the past where I would say such a thing and never return to the thread. This basically kills the user's hopes for getting a rate, even AFTER they put more effort into making the post. Also I think a sticky or whatever with a way to format threads would be good. :x I've noticed some poor formatting on some teams that really deter anyone from rating it. It's just unappealing and it looks like it'll require more work than one that has pictures and good formatting.

Now I know not everyone would read such a sticky, but it could be good for those people who we want to bring up as regulars. Say they visit often, but have bad formatting. We can just refer them to the thread and tell them that it would be better if they started formatting in this method. Not a big issue, but it could be a reason for a low number of rates as well.

Also, more help with the Gen 5 threat list would be nice. :x DA has done almost everything and I find it funny that I'm the second highest contributor when I've only done two pokemon. The List of Released Dream World Pokemon thread could be stickied (hint hint) once it's finished and whatnot. Resources are nice. :3 Another resource thread could be an intro to competitive Generation 5. However, this could probably be included in an intro to the Gen 5 threat list.

In all honesty though, we just need to have patience. Do what we can now so that we're ready for the inevitable rush of new users come the English release of Black and White. I know DP dragged me here back when it came out, and even though I was completely awful, I stuck with it and now I'm...alright I guess? So we just gotta encourage members to try out competitive for the first time. I feel the best incentive to play competitive is that it'll make pokemon last until you're midlife crisis. :x Not that I'm that old or anything, but I'm 17, sitting at the higher age group of people have pokemon (heck it's not even socially acceptable, so I keep it a secret xD). I haven't missed a single mainstream pokemon game yet, and I sure hope we can encourage new members to stick with it for years just like I have. I never imagined myself being 17 and still being into pokemon the way I am. It's ridiculous how infectious competitive can be.

I wonder if it's possible to remove the elitist mentality people have about competitive pokemon and smogon. I doubt it's possible, but I think the easiest way to make the competitive community appear better is to advertise the fact that we play it this way and act kindly toward other members. Maybe that's why everyone left. We were jerks to the Battle Stadium people, which made them hate us. So yeah.

tl;dr
- Stop being lazy.
- Rate more without fear (at least for me).
- We need a tutoring program that's active.
- Keep no thread approval.
- Resources need work.
- Keep a positive attitude to represent the S&M community better.

[Anti]

Originally Posted by Aero

Thread approval was good for keeping down the clutter, sure, but it's not worth it. I like it the way it is, even if threads don't provide all the necessary information. We could simply post asking for them to provide it, whereas if they don't get approval, they'll most likely give up entirely and move onto Smogon or some other site with RMT's. However, if we do post and say that we need more information to rate, we need to actually rate once that information is added in. I've done it a few times myself in the past where I would say such a thing and never return to the thread. This basically kills the user's hopes for getting a rate, even AFTER they put more effort into making the post. Also I think a sticky or whatever with a way to format threads would be good. :x I've noticed some poor formatting on some teams that really deter anyone from rating it. It's just unappealing and it looks like it'll require more work than one that has pictures and good formatting.

I don't even think that we should post asking them to add information...well, that's not all that we should post. Obviously, it's good to include that so that they don't repeat the same mistake if they're intent on sticking around and learning, but I don't see why we shouldn't pony up and rate the team anyway. "Noob teams" are easy to rate since simple rookie mistakes are very evident and easy to correct. Instead of getting into their lack of physical walls, it would probably be more beneficial to go over the more obvious mistakes and iron those out.

I think that this differs a lot from "this is a good start but it's not competitively viable, you need to redo this team" (which I'll admit I've done a lot) simply because even if you're nice about it, it's still pretty deflating to hear that your team needs to be totally redone. Rather, it would probably be more constructive to simply correct the team without replacing much, as this is definitely a more "feel good" approach that will keep the more devoted aspiring competitive player around to learn more about competitive play. And from there, things like three Fire-types on one team will almost inevitably take care of themselves. But hey, rating it right away instead of a pretty detached "we need more information" is more encouraging to new users and definitely helps with our terrible image, which through only 15 or so posts has already been well documented to the point where it's kind of sad that it's become so bad.

But as far as formatting is concerned, sprites don't add any value to threads. They make them look better, but as far as rating is concerned, they have no value. I can't say that I see any need to try to make new players format their threads better when it's just another burden for them. Also, we have a sticky that is similar to a formatting sticky (though when I wrote it I definitely had more practical things like descriptions in mind, but aesthetics are included), so I don't see the need for another one, especially when it's not actually necessary. It's just second nature to think that it is because we're used to seeing them in good RMTs, but that's not the standard we should hold new users to. Much like with team building as I said before, making more aesthetically pleasing RMTs will become natural as they learn.

Originally Posted by Aero

Also, a tutor program. This needs to come back and be more active. As mentioned numerous times, it can help build up newer members in hopes of turning them into regulars like us. Now if you all think I could, I wouldn't mind being a tutor (or at least a substitute tutor). I'm pretty sure I'm active enough to be one. Now I'm unsure as to how this should be organized, but I imagine there's going to be a thread much like the one that exists now...but not locked with just links to profiles. How does smogon's program work? Does it even work? o.o I feel we should base it off something that is successful.

I'm right there with you about making it better, but if I recall from the more Smogon-like one we tried well over a year ago, the tutors weren't exactly enthusiastic about doing it and I know that a lot of students were not particularly happy with how it worked for them. I would be open to reforming the current thread but I must admit that I'm lost as to how. I wouldn't mind unlocking it for discussion between users needing help and people like us regulars who can help. I don't really think it's that urgent though since historically I'm pretty sure that tutor programs haven't been a great source of new users or activity. But I agree, we should make it so that we get the most out of it. Any ideas here by anyone would be appreciated.

[Skip Shot]

I've kinda been a S+M regular around, so I can give somewhat of an opinion. I joined PC in mid-08 when Garchomp was being hugely debated and I had no clue about competitive battling. (See: my first post ever on how Luvdisc can beat Infernape). Anyways, S+M was a pretty cool place for me back then: I learned about competitive Pokemon while starting to not horribly suck, and people were pretty cool (with the exception of a few regulars I'd rather not name). But after Platinum came around, the entire mood was pretty much "oh competitive battling sucks now let's not do it". Some people did begin to find alternatives and continued to be a part of the community (best example being Anti and his quest to conquer the entire ADV Frontier) and others just gritted it out and went with what they knew best (D_A's ElfStall continued to shine for example). But really tbh lots of people started leaving and being less active. sims comes on occassionally now and then, I haven't seen Gamer, Noir, or people like that in a while, and then some of the jerks from 08 ended up getting banned. There's not that many of the regulars left from when I first joined.

What we can do to help bring activity up has probly been already stated: First off, people besides D_A and Anti should rate teams more (including myself) because it gives people help and encourages them to stay rather than scaring them off by not rating. I posted one team on Smogon before and it got no rates, and it kinda made me worry "is my team horrible enough that nobody will help?" I think that if even you can show them how to reconstructure the whole team if its that bad, help them to do it. Don't just give links and stuff.

IDK if tutoring would be a success considering the activity of a lot of regulars atm, but encouraging more people to come on PO would be helpful. There could be a title like a "Battle Tutor" who you can challenge and they can give you battling advice as you're battling them. That would help people get more battling experience and become better at competitive battling.

[Aurafire]

I think we can all agree on one thing: B/W is our big chance to revive S&M and hopefully restore it to its former glory. The pre-Platinum days were really fun, when we had a group of regulars who posted and rated teams on a regular basis. Then Platinum came, good players started leaving, and now what's left, as Anti has said many times, are RMTs and rates from random users without any sense of the community that we had in early-mid 2008.

There's no problem with new players giving and getting advice in S&M (that's pretty much what we're here for lol), but what's missing are the regulars that were the real fabric of the forum and kept it active with good, quality posting. The good ol' days were back when someone posted a RMT and all of the regulars commented, regardless of whose team it was. This was back when battling, rating and posting in S&M was actually fun instead of a chore due to a crappy metagame.

Well, now we have B/W, and we cannot waste this opportunity to get people interested in battling. As I've said before, the US release is going to cause a very significant increase in activity for PC. Our goal should be to harness that activity and get some new people to visit S&M regularly, and hopefully revive those glory days of 2008. We'll hold a massive forum-wide tournament and get everyone from PC involved, post announcements everywhere, offer incentives (emblems obviously, but maybe even more since this'll be an official PC event), and hopefully we'll get the same turnout that we did for the get-together tournament. A big event like this shouldn't have any problem attracting a large amount of people. I mean, this is a pokemon forum, so everyone here must have some sort of interest in B/W's US release.

The key though is getting people to stick around after the big tournament. This is where we should go full-throttle with reviving our tutoring program, community night, wifi-tournaments, posting and rating teams, etc. This is going to take some dedication from our current regulars by setting a good example and showing that S&M isn't this big scary place where experienced battlers troll and talk down to new people. That's just unacceptable, and I'm sure everyone here knows that's not what we're about. We've attempted to reshape our image, but people actually have to be here to see that S&M has changed. Hence, why B/W is such a huge deal.

But honestly, I'm optimistic. I think we have a good shot at getting S&M active again. We just have to make sure we're ready when B/W comes out in the US. So, we have a lot of work to do with getting stuff optimized and prepared, aka the tutoring program, threat list, getting people on the PO server, etc. We know what we have to do, so let's just do it yeah?

[Syndrome]

We need to be more nicer, clearly. Regulars need to be more involved, including myself. I agree with everyone.

[Jake♫]

I guess I count for being a regular (Even with my blatant lack of activity lately, college does that Freshman year I guess), so I'll throw in my tl;dr opinion since its 3 AM. Basically and shamelessly I have to agree with everyone, but mostly on the being nice part. I can honestly say I've participated in the whole troll new users for the lulz, and that's what I think really kills us. Aura has it right: This is our opportunity, and if we don't grasp it...we're pretty much screwed at this point.

[Ninja Caterpie]

I don't really consider myself a "regular" of this place, although I do check pretty often. I started here at about the end of its heyday, and I've kinda seen the stuff just...decline (like with ROM Hacking D:).

Actually, being a semi-not-really-but-maybe-a-bit regular, I kinda know why most outside peeps, and even some of the semi-regulars, don't really rate; it's kinda intimidating to only point out a few obvious mistakes, because it makes your post kinda feel like it lacks content in comparison to one of the true regular's posts, and there's definitely a fear of being wrong and nub lol. I agree a lot with Aero in this part, and that it's kinda meh to post when you know what you're about to say is probably just gonna get covered by someone else and you get lazy really fast.

Also, the regulars are too regular and too...pro almost. I dunno how to describe it, but it happened to the fanfiction section, too; the newbs just kinda got scared by the pros and didn't join in the FFL or other discussion threads (eg. seen many newbs in the Everyday Gynecomastia Talk, anyone?).

Black and White is a good chance for all of us to sorta start afresh; when the English release comes out, we (you) need to be ready to face the (hopefully) influx of newbies, and help them incorporate themselves to make this place really thrive. It's hit or miss, so we (you) had better get ready.

[.Aero]

I feel like Black and White is just the only chance to keep the forum alive. I just realized how critical this point will be to this community in the sense that most of us regulars are on the verge of quitting pokemon for good due to "old" age. I don't know if any of us will ever really reach that age, but I feel I have a chance (especially when I go off to college in 1 and a half years I guess it is).

If we miss this chance, who's left once we all finally disappear? That's the issue, we need a new set of "us" basically to fill our places when we're gone. I'm making this sound like we're dying in real life, but I dunno how else to express it with the same amount of urgency that it requires.

:x Yeah.

[Anti]

Originally Posted by Ninja Caterpie

Also, the regulars are too regular and too...pro almost. I dunno how to describe it, but it happened to the fanfiction section, too; the newbs just kinda got scared by the pros and didn't join in the FFL or other discussion threads (eg. seen many newbs in the Everyday Gynecomastia Talk, anyone?).

I'm glad you brought up that awful DCC that's here for no reason. I don't remember if you guys remember the campaign to make this forum more casual, but the DCC was a part of that. However, I cannot possibly justify its continued existence. Nothing productive is ever said in that thread. It has historically been a breeding ground for trolling various "inferior members" and looking like stuck up idiots. I don't see how anyone who has seen that DCC would ever want to set foot in this forum again. Nothing that is said in that thread except for server announcements is something that can't just be said on Shoddy to each other. Even though the quality has probably improved over time (I rarely visit anymore it so I wouldn't know), I still have no idea why this toxic thread still exists. Any new user who sees that will probably signaled that there is a clique of S&M regulars that they're not a part of and that is intimidating to most people. If the thread actually served a purpose then maybe this would be a little more excusable but it adds nothing to the forum. As you might have noticed, I think it hurts it, haha. I don't know if I was straightforward enough in the past, but I didn't constantly talk about how bad the DCC was to be edgy or funny--I actually meant it, lol. When my last mod action before resignation was locking the first one (for what I thought would be a long period of time if not permanently), my hope was that its toxic influence would vanish. I don't want to throw D_A under the bus here since he did ask me to bring it back and I approved on the condition that posts would be monitored for, to put in simply, saying something that Vance would have said. But you really can't moderate a thread like that since babysitting it destroys its only "positive," which is casual community chat, and you are probably just going to make people stop posting if you say "well this post isn't good enough to exist in our DCC." And there, what could possibly seem more snobbish to a newcomer (or anyone, really) than deleting or even infracting posts in a self-described casual thread for not meeting some random arbitrary quality standard? I think it would be an understatement to say that the DCC is my least favorite thread in S&M history for all of the reasons I've stated. I don't know where you guys stand on this, but I am in favor of making the "new DCC" the Shoddy chat like it was for quite some time and to get rid of that toxic thread at the top of the forum.

Also, as long as the atmosphere is clearly friendly and accepting, I think that we can make us being "pros" and positive since newcomers will feel like they're learning from people who know what they're talking about. We just have to make sure that they understand that we don't equate learning the game with inferiority as we have been rightfully accused of for so long.

Also, Aero brings up a good point. I'll stick around for another year or two but once I go to college all bets are off (enjoying everything about college or Pokeon...sorry I've got to take college here haha). For the sake of S&M two years from now we ought to fix this.

[Wolflare]

I forgot about the DCC, but just saying I agree that it serves no purpose when we have the PO chat for random topics. The thread is like a mini-firebot to me...but it could work if it was meant to actually discuss strategies and movesets since we don't talk about that enough on PO (I guess we could make a separate channel for that, but I have a feeling it will be dead and a thread would probably get more activity). Though, I don't think we have a large enough user base for that currently.

[Jake♫]

I'll agree on the removal of the DCC, seriously it's joke a sarcasm and troll pit, although it can be funny =P And just to clarify how you guys are feeling on the upcoming college note, take a look at my activity. That's probably what is going to happen for you guys too =P

[Aurafire]

Just for you people heading from high school to college, nobody really cares if you still play in college, lol. My roommates all know I mod a pokemon forum and they're like "oh...cool." My activity on PC has certainly slowed down when I'm not on break or during the summer, but managing your workload is pretty easy. I still enjoy battling and going on PC, so I don't plan on leaving anytime soon ^.^

Anyway, I agree with everyone else about the DCC. It had good intentions but it won't serve a purpose in the new S&M. I think it was there to make us feel better about ourselves when S&M was really dead, so we could say "Hey, at least there's still a little activity!" But yeah, poor attempts at trolling and the lame jokes are getting old.

If D_A agrees, we'll lock the crap out of it.