Pokemon Black and White Tier Lists?

[Tony_the_Dark_Prominence]

Greetings all Pokemon fans, fellow members and guests!

As we all know, Pokemon Black version and White version recently came out as a brand new series of games with brand new features and game play. New Pokemon are availible... many new questions will swirl around in our heads.
Competitive battling is about to get extremely interesting this time around.
The question I would like to ask everyone on this board deals with tier lists in Pokemon Black and White version.

As I said before, there are many new Pokemon abilities, features and circumstances this time around. I started getting into competitive battling when HGSS came out in the 4th Gen games. Now that I have a hold of two new masterpieces... one can not help but to ask how good are the Pokemon in the tiers for competitive battling?
I don't want to send the wrong message to everyone on this board however - All Pokemon in the games are useful in some way or department ... I quote Karen from the second gen Elite Four -
"Strong Pokemon... Weak Pokemon... That is the selfish perception of a Pokemon Trainer. The truely skilled will win with their favorites."

And so on... (Karen may have said something slightly different, but the overall message is the same.) My intent is to beat Pokemon Black and White first and find out the tiers but... curiosity can be a living hell sometimes...

*sigh*

I am aware of the facts that the games only recently came out. I'm sure that there is speculation on how the Pokemon will fair in this generation. I need everyones facts (AND opinions of course) to determine the Pokemon standpoints.

What do you guys (and gals) think about the Pokemon now? Where do you think these Pokemon will be tiered?

[Uber Legend]

I think it's pretty obvious that Zekrom and Reshiram are ubers, but I'm not sure about Kyurem. I'd hate to think that Victini would be considered one because I absolutely love mine. I'm thinking that Tornadus and Landorus will most likely be OU and I'd think that Terekkion, Cobalion, and Virizion would be too, but so far I haven't seen many people using them...? I love my Cobalion though. Not quite sure about anything else.

[Dark Piplup]

Pretty sure the legends will be ubers. Except for Victini and possibly Genesect. And though I'd hate to think about it, Haxorus may be.

[wyndamn]

Well i`ve been aware of the actual metagame since i play a lot in different pokemon online servers and by the looks of it victini won´t be Uber for a long long time (if ever considered) cuz he´s too frail and has many drawbacks, such as stealth rock, spikes, etc. all entry damage hits him and besides that he has various weaknesses, being pursuit one of the biggest threats for him, On the other hand people are not using much terrakion but its power, typing and coverage are offensively excellent, its already an uber in many tier lists (mostly spanish ones, despite his weakneses) so i guess along time maybe a suspect for uber. Now landorus and Genesect are mandatory Ubers they have way too much power and perfect typing too not to mention their coverage, another one that maybe a sure ban its excadrill. Meanwhile Haxorus (Hax Our United States lol) and Kyurem are still unsure but both have potential to cause havoc, so i guess they won´t be very considered as Uber suspects.

I´m also making a tier list for 5th gen, with like 10 more friends and we´ve been analizing it , testing and even voting a lot since B/W came out, we have our tiers already in beta 3 stage and we mostly made this list to avoid Abuses inside the meta, so the metagame its actually very balanced and another plus to it is that you don´t have to be building the team around x pokemons to beat some other threatening pokes and it also keeps rain and sun in the meta without being too broken. If you are interested in it i could give you the link so you can downloaded and give me your opinions aswell about it.

[Raichupacabra]

Well the Legendaries thats easy (opinions)
Victini - OU/Uber
Reshiram - Uber
Zekrom - Uber
Kyurem - OU
Terrakion - OU
Virizion - OU
Cobalion - UU/BL
Landorus - OU
Thundurus - OU
Tornadus - OU
Keldeo - Uber
Genesect - Uber
Meloetta - Uber

Other Pokemon:
Volcarona - OU
Excadrill - OU
Hydreigon - OU
Haxorus - OU
Serperior - OU
Whimsicott - OU
Durant - UU
Cofagrigus - OU
Lilligant - UU/BL
Watchog - NU

[dragonomega]

If you people actually took the chance to visit Smogon and went on the forums, you would find that most Pokemon are analysis for tier's and such.

Even here there is a threat list, which is basically all OU Pokemon, and even the gen IV Pokemon who were either UU or Uber are now in OU, so just look before you make a thread. \:

[wyndamn]

Originally Posted by dragonomega

If you people actually took the chance to visit Smogon and went on the forums, you would find that most Pokemon are analysis for tier's and such.

Even here there is a threat list, which is basically all OU Pokemon, and even the gen IV Pokemon who were either UU or Uber are now in OU, so just look before you make a thread. \:

Well i have checked it out many times before, but i thought he asked our opinions, not everybody plays smogons meta. There are many pokemon sites that just use smogon as a guidance to make their own tiers.

[PlatinumDude]

I don't think Serperior would be OU, since it lacks Contrary at the moment. It's UU or BL at the best. My thoughts:
-Serperior: UU/BL
-Emboar: NU
-Samurott: NU/UU
-Watchog: NU
-Stoutland: NU
-Liepard: NU
-Simisage: UU
-Simisear: NU
-Simipour: UU
-Musharna: UU
-Unfezant: NU
-Zebstrika: NU
-Gigalith: UU/BL
-Swoobat: UU/NU
-Excadrill: OU
-Audino: NU
-Conkeldurr: OU
-Seismitoad: NU
-Throh: NU
-Sawk: NU/UU
-Leavanny: NU
-Scolipede: UU/BL
-Whimsicott: OU
-Lilligant: NU
-Basculin: NU
-Krookodile: UU/BL
-Darmanitan: BL/OU
-Maractus: NU
-Crustle: UU
-Scrafty: OU/BL
-Sigilyph: UU
-Cofagrigus: UU
-Carracosta: UU
-Archeops: BL
-Garbodor: NU
-Zoroark: OU/BL
-Cinccino: UU
-Gothitelle: UU
-Reuniclus: OU
-Swanna: NU
-Vanilluxe: NU
-Sawsbuck: UU
-Emolga: NU
-Escavalier: UU
-Amoongus: UU
-Jellicent: OU
-Alomomola: NU
-Galvantula: UU
-Ferrothorn: OU
-Klinklang: NU
-Eelektross: UU
-Beheeyem: NU
-Chandelure: BL
-Haxorus: BL/OU
-Beartic: NU
-Cryogonal: NU
-Accelgor: UU
-Stunfisk: NU
-Mienshao: UU
-Druddigon: UU
-Golurk: UU
-Bisharp: UU
-Bouffalant: UU
-Braviary: BL
-Mandibuzz: UU/NU
-Heatmor: NU
-Durant: UU
-Hydreigon: OU
-Volcarona: OU
-Cobalion: BL
-Terrakion: OU
-Virizion: BL/UU
-Tornadus: BL/UU
-Thundurus: OU
-Reshiram: Uber
-Zekrom: Uber
-Landorus: OU
-Kyurem: BL
-Keldeo: OU
-Meloetta: Uber/OU
-Genesect: Uber

(these are my thoughts)

Like wyndamn said, not everyone uses Smogon's tiers while they're battling.

[dragonomega]

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude

I don't think Serperior would be OU, since it lacks Contrary at the moment. It's UU or BL at the best. My thoughts:
-Serperior: UU/BL
-Emboar: NU
-Samurott: NU/UU
-Watchog: NU
-Stoutland: UU It has decent stats and great attack, plus it get's Sand Rush, I think >> Either that or Sand Power.
-Liepard: NU
-Simisage: UU
-Simisear: UU It can learn Nasty Plot and can sweep with it, it deserves UU.
-Simipour: UU
-Musharna: UU
-Unfezant: NU
-Zebstrika: NU
-Gigalith: UU/BL
-Swoobat: UU/NU
-Excadrill: OU
-Audino: NU
-Conkeldurr: OU
-Seismitoad: NU
-Throh: NU
-Sawk: NU/UU
-Leavanny: NU
-Scolipede: UU/BL
-Whimsicott: OU
-Lilligant: BL True, a crappy movepool is a burden on the ol' gal. But Quiver Dance and great offensive stats can make it feirce, plus it can also go supporter with sleep powder etc...
-Basculin: NU
-Krookodile: UU/BL
-Darmanitan: BL/OU
-Maractus: NU
-Crustle: UU
-Scrafty: OU No doubt about it, OU.
-Sigilyph: BL/OU true it's not the strongest of all Pokemon, but it can be great in battle if used right.
-Cofagrigus: BL with a base 50 Hp burden, it may seem rubbish, but huge defensive stats and an average special attack stat makes it powerful enough to be BL, maybe even OU
-Carracosta: UU
-Archeops: BL
-Garbodor: NU
-Zoroark: OU Frail true, but it has a lot of power and speed.
-Cinccino: UU
-Gothitelle: UU
-Reuniclus: OU
-Swanna: NU
-Vanilluxe: NU
-Sawsbuck: UU
-Emolga: NU
-Escavalier: UU
-Amoongus: UU
-Jellicent: OU
-Alomomola: NU
-Galvantula: UU
-Ferrothorn: OU
-Klinklang: NU
-Eelektross: OU/BL Most likely OU since it's got a terrific movepool and no weaknesses, and can pack a punch with it's great coverage of types like Dragon, Rock, Dark, Electric, Fire etc.
-Beheeyem: UU not NU material, he's an above-average Reuniclus, without the defense and Hp.
-Chandelure: OU Lol what the hell?
-Haxorus: OU same as ^
-Beartic: NU
-Cryogonal: NU
-Accelgor: UU
-Stunfisk: NU
-Mienshao: OU A great lead and can destroy slow movers, plus can baton pass sub's.
-Druddigon: UU
-Golurk: UU
-Bisharp: UU
-Bouffalant: UU
-Braviary: BL
-Mandibuzz: UU/NU
-Heatmor: NU
-Durant: UU
-Hydreigon: OU
-Volcarona: OU
-Cobalion: BL
-Terrakion: OU
-Virizion: BL/UU
-Tornadus: OU He may not be as good as his brother but boy he can move.
-Thundurus: OU
-Reshiram: Uber
-Zekrom: Uber
-Landorus: OU
-Kyurem: OU reasonable bulk all around and great offensive stats, making him an OU contender.
-Keldeo: BL/OU Maybe strong, but a shallow movepool drags this pony down.
-Meloetta: Uber/OU
-Genesect: OU Not good enough for Uber's, base 99 Speed isn't that great.

(these are my thoughts)

Like wyndamn said, not everyone uses Smogon's tiers while they're battling.

Some Pokemon in those tiers are just way of. I've bolded the one's that should be in a different tier.

[Tony_the_Dark_Prominence]

Speaking of Stealth Rock... If I am right, only a handful of Pokemon can learn Stealth Rock now, as it is no longer a TM. There is a way around that however - Palpark (if there is one of some kind in Pokemon Black and White.) If this exists, that means you draw Pokemon out from HGSS, Diamond, Pearl and Platinum without any problems. The Pokemon you draw from those games would have Stealth Rock and other good environmental hazards to make use of!

[dragonomega]

Originally Posted by Tony_the_Dark_Prominence

Speaking of Stealth Rock... If I am right, only a handful of Pokemon can learn Stealth Rock now, as it is no longer a TM. There is a way around that however - Palpark (if there is one of some kind in Pokemon Black and White.) If this exists, that means you draw Pokemon out from HGSS, Diamond, Pearl and Platinum without any problems. The Pokemon you draw from those games would have Stealth Rock and other good environmental hazards to make use of!

Yes, that is correct, Stealth rock can only be taught through breeding, and obviously that Pokemon has to have Stealth rock as an egg move.

[Tony_the_Dark_Prominence]

Originally Posted by dragonomega

If you people actually took the chance to visit Smogon and went on the forums, you would find that most Pokemon are analysis for tier's and such.

Even here there is a threat list, which is basically all OU Pokemon, and even the gen IV Pokemon who were either UU or Uber are now in OU, so just look before you make a thread. \:

I was already aware of Smogon's viewpoints on tier lists in Pokemon Black and White, even before I made this thread. Due to the fact that the tier list are not yet fully determined and that the games only recently came out, I wanted to see what others had to say about the Pokemon they use and what tiers you would suggest for them after using them for a period of time during gameplay. As you said, the Pokemon are still being analyzed for what tiers they may belong.
I'm not only worried about the OU and Uber tiered Pokemon either, I'm also concerned for the BL, UU and the NU tiers as well.

I did not know that... So Stealth Rock can only be taught through breeding, huh.

I guess Game Freak took the IV Gen metagames into account before making these two new games. But, that may make competitive battling a bit more interesting. But, then again, when did fight on a competitive basis, it is pretty mandatory put Stealth Rocks on the field as soon as possible for 2HKO's. A LOT of Pokemon new how to use Stealth Rock too...

Originally Posted by dragonomega

Some Pokemon in those tiers are just way of. I've bolded the one's that should be in a different tier.

I replied a little too early...

[wyndamn]

Since everyone is posting there own Tier List thinking i´ll share mine
http://www.mediafire.com/?ts6rg7ls13gan2k that´s the link to the balanced tiers i mentioned before (its a low weight image Tier List) take it as opinions if you dont like it cuz after all its not mandatory. Anyway as you will se every pokemon it´s been placed where it can abuse less and have more gameplay potential, as i said the list is centered on balance but is kinda like a mix of usage, power an bst´s at the same time. And all the actual positions for them ensure that you dont have to be building a team around just to beat some X menace, these pokemon are an example of it excadrill, garchomp or landorus being in every sandteam (:/) , meaning at the same time that the metagame will have more diversity in team making, for example using a stoutland or sandslash on a sandstorm team etc.

So pokemon with broken combinations that are too overpower or have problematic abilities have been control by banning them. Right now we´ve been considering banning the move shell smash because its a very overpowered move (and personally we think that it was a nintendo troll upon all of us and specially on smogon) and that way we can use 4 of the banned pokemon in these Tiers because of the Rain+Shell Smash combination. There are still some pokemon we are not sure about like Scrafty and a few others but that will be decided in the last beta programmed to go out next june or july if possible.

Another thing we´ve been considering is to make a tier above OU that will act like a BL tier for pokemon with high performances that should be playing great in ubers but haven´t do good enough in it, but this may not be implemented as we are still unsure about it. Finally take in account that this Tier list already has most of the future inplementations that will be applied later by Nintendo (DW abilities namely) so there you have it, that is the opinion and my friendly Research Team

Btw i agree with most of Dragonomega Bolded changes except the likes of; Chandelure, Genesect and Keldeo.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by wyndamn

Another thing we´ve been considering is to make a tier above OU that will act like a BL tier for pokemon with high performances that should be playing great in ubers but haven´t do good enough in it, but this may not be implemented as we are still unsure about it. Finally take in account that this Tier list already has most of the future inplementations that will be applied later by Nintendo (DW abilities namely) so there you have it, that is the opinion and my friendly Research Team :)

I'm kind of against this idea of "BL for Ubers" tier. The biggest reason is that things are banned to Ubers not because they're expected to do well in that metagame (for example, Salamence was almost entirely outclassed by Rayquaza in Gen IV Ubers save its base 100 Speed and Intimidate) but because they are too good for the metagame below it. Uber is the "BL for Standard" tier, and we don't have a "BL for BL" tier so it doesn't really make any logical sense to make one imo.

[wyndamn]

Originally Posted by Vrai

I'm kind of against this idea of "BL for Ubers" tier. The biggest reason is that things are banned to Ubers not because they're expected to do well in that metagame (for example, Salamence was almost entirely outclassed by Rayquaza in Gen IV Ubers save its base 100 Speed and Intimidate) but because they are too good for the metagame below it. Uber is the "BL for Standard" tier, and we don't have a "BL for BL" tier so it doesn't really make any logical sense to make one imo.

I personally think the same, but me and some of my friends are still discussing this because some of us believe the same as you do, that´s why i said it may not be implemented anyway. But in any case it wouldn´t be an exact BL but more like another diferent tier above OU and for things who play similarly that overpowers in OU gameplay but are not so great to play in Ubers. Either way i guess well figure out that gathering more opinions like yours, voting and testing that idea and see how it goes. Anyway thanks for your opinion one more to the no-nos xD

ps: love your signature PlatinumDude, is awesome !!

[.Aero]

Here are my thoughts. :x Thanks to Platdude for the list. Most of OU has already been established, but with the sheer number of pokemon, a lot of suspected OU's will end up being UU or BL (I personally can actually see a BL metagame existing this generation once the stats are out).

Originally Posted by Me

-Victini - NU/UU
-Serperior: UU until Contrary is released. Then I'm not sure what will happen. Perhaps a ban on the ability depending on how the metagame progresses.
-Emboar: NU
-Samurott: NU
-Watchog: NU
-Stoutland: NU
-Liepard: NU
-Simisage: NU
-Simisear: NU
-Simipour: NU
-Musharna: NU
-Unfezant: NU
-Zebstrika: NU
-Gigalith: NU
-Swoobat: NU
-Excadrill: OU/Possibly uber with the way smogon keeps testing it.
-Audino: NU
-Conkeldurr: BL/OU
-Seismitoad: NU
-Throh: NU
-Sawk: NU
-Leavanny: NU
-Scolipede: NU
-Whimsicott: UU
-Lilligant: UU
-Basculin: NU
-Krookodile: NU
-Darmanitan: UU
-Maractus: NU
-Crustle: UU
-Scrafty: BL/OU
-Sigilyph: UU
-Cofagrigus: UU
-Carracosta: UU
-Archeops: UU
-Garbodor: NU
-Zoroark: OU
-Cinccino: NU
-Gothitelle: NU
-Reuniclus: OU/Uber depending no testing.
-Swanna: NU
-Vanilluxe: NU
-Sawsbuck: UU
-Emolga: NU
-Escavalier: OU
-Amoongus: UU
-Jellicent: OU
-Alomomola: NU
-Galvantula: NU
-Ferrothorn: OU
-Klinklang: NU
-Eelektross: UU
-Beheeyem: NU
-Chandelure: OU
-Haxorus: OU
-Beartic: NU
-Cryogonal: NU
-Accelgor: NU
-Stunfisk: NU
-Mienshao: OU
-Druddigon: UU
-Golurk: NU
-Bisharp: UU
-Bouffalant: UU
-Braviary: NU
-Mandibuzz: NU
-Heatmor: NU
-Durant: UU
-Hydreigon: OU
-Volcarona: OU
-Cobalion: NU
-Terrakion: OU
-Virizion: BL/OU
-Tornadus: BL/OU
-Thundurus: OU
-Reshiram: Uber
-Zekrom: Uber
-Landorus: OU
-Kyurem: UU
-Keldeo: OU/Uber
-Meloetta: NU
-Genesect: OU/Uber

[Tony_the_Dark_Prominence]

Okay... Here's another one then!

What about Pokemon tiers in Black and White from Generation I, II, III and, IV?!

What everyone here should understand is... Things like Metagross, Typhlosion, Tyranitar and Gyrados are my favorites
(eventhough, Typhlosion sucked in Gen IV because of his hopeless flaw towards Stealth Rock and its questionable movepool...)

What tiers would these guys be in??? Eh?

[dragonomega]

Originally Posted by Tony_the_Dark_Prominence

Okay... Here's another one then!

What about Pokemon tiers in Black and White from Generation I, II, III and, IV?!

What everyone here should understand is... Things like Metagross, Typhlosion, Tyranitar and Gyrados are my favorites
(eventhough, Typhlosion sucked in Gen IV because of his hopeless flaw towards Stealth Rock and its questionable movepool...)

What tiers would these guys be in??? Eh?

Most of the old Pokemon have already been placed into tiers for Gen V, Metagross who has had no change from Gen IV so it remains in OU. Tyranitar is still in OU, pretty stupid to question it really. Typhlosion is and always will be, in NU. Gyarados is still OU. Maybe you should check the Threats thread we have here in the S&M. It's basically all OU Pokemon |:

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Tony_the_Dark_Prominence

Okay... Here's another one then!

What about Pokemon tiers in Black and White from Generation I, II, III and, IV?!

What everyone here should understand is... Things like Metagross, Typhlosion, Tyranitar and Gyrados are my favorites
(eventhough, Typhlosion sucked in Gen IV because of his hopeless flaw towards Stealth Rock and its questionable movepool...)

What tiers would these guys be in??? Eh?

You mean tiers for those metagames (R/B metagame, GSC meta, RSEFRLG meta, DPPt meta etc.)? Smogon has more than needed for those - and those metagames are old so the tiers are honestly not in need of any changes. There's little to discuss about them because those metagames aren't active.

If you mean tiering older Pokemon... like dragonomega said, you can look at our threat list and assume that most of the Pokemon there are OU/BL or pretty good. And I hope that favoritism doesn't come into account when you're tiering Pokemon...

[wyndamn]

Originally Posted by Tony_the_Dark_Prominence

Okay... Here's another one then!

What about Pokemon tiers in Black and White from Generation I, II, III and, IV?!

What everyone here should understand is... Things like Metagross, Typhlosion, Tyranitar and Gyrados are my favorites
(eventhough, Typhlosion sucked in Gen IV because of his hopeless flaw towards Stealth Rock and its questionable movepool...)

What tiers would these guys be in??? Eh?

Well just like i said before not everyone plays Smogon tiers, but as for my personal thoughts on them in gen 4 gyarados, tyranitar and metagross are fairly OU and typhlosion it´s not that sucky to be an NU i and like almost every spanish tier categorizes him as an UU pokemon. Same goes for gen 5 with the exception of gyarados that should be Uber already cuz that thing goes trough entire teams just with 2 dances and now with moxie it just needs 1 and 1 kill and GG, so even thought its one of my favorites too bye bye to him in OU usage as for my tiers that is !

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by wyndamn

Well just like i said before not everyone plays Smogon tiers, but as for my personal thoughts on them in gen 4 gyarados, tyranitar and metagross are fairly OU and typhlosion it´s not that sucky to be an NU i and like almost every spanish tier categorizes him as an UU pokemon. Same goes for gen 5 with the exception of gyarados that should be Uber already cuz that thing goes trough entire teams just with 2 dances and now with moxie it just needs 1 and 1 kill and GG, so even thought its one of my favorites too bye bye to him in OU usage as for my tiers that is !

Well if everyone determined their own tiers then obviously favoritism would come into play and tiers would be useless. Gyarados is checkable even at +2, good sir. Rotom-W isn't OHKO'd by anything it can muster save possibly Return, and if it's running Return Ferrothorn stuffs it still. Thundurus could come in and priority Thunder Wave it. Plus, it only reaches that stage of "unbeatableness" when you let it get +2. Hell, Whimsicott can come in and Encore the boosts and then set up Leech Seed + Substitute. :/

I don't see what the point in discussing "your own tiers" is when all it's going to be is people saying "no this is too powerful it should be here" or "haha like that's too strong! it's OU for sure" which is like exactly the same thing as what Smogon does in the first place and they end up with fairly balanced tiers. If you don't think Typhlosion is deservedly NU, go convince the people who are in charge of it that it should be NU. I mean... I don't know. I just don't see any point in "discussing your tiers" when it's not going to result in anything worth talking about in the end.

[Dark Azelf]

Tiers are based on usage and not usefulness, people use what works, to WIN. If you want things to move around tiers convince everyone that a certain Pokemon is good and not outclassed by other Pokemon then people will use it and as thus will be moved up a tier and if it sucks no one uses it and as thus will drop. There is no way im using Luvdisc when every single water type is better. On a similar tiering note if its broken a Pokemon will be banned through testing. Smogon's system is the most reliable and democratic out of any sites hence why nearly all respectable Pokemon sites follow it. If you want your say, participate in the suspect tests which are open to anyone, if you get high enough on the ladder you get to vote on broken Pokemons fate as well as increasing a Pokemons usage at the same time if you use it.

Also ingame=/= competitive which is the only place where tiers are relevant as said people use what WINS them games. So that Karen quote is moot.

No one is asking you to follow smogons tiers though... but you'll struggle finding battles with anyone really if your rules and tiers are really obscure and not standard.. so yeah this thread has run its cause and is rather pointless.

~Locked~

Loling at Uber Gyarados.