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  #401    
Old May 3rd, 2012 (03:30 AM).
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Quote originally posted by CarefulWetPaint:
Barrels there is a few passages I believe where it say's its okay to kill people if they work on the sabbath or if a male cuts their hair to short. I cant remember them exactly but I'll try and find them for you and edit this post with them.
Quote originally posted by droomph:
But the Sabbath doesn't really apply anymore other than "celebrate and rest".

Besides it's not okay to kill anyone unless it's an absolute accident (which if it is only God knows the truth and he'll judge accordingly).
Cheers, fellas. After I posted I had a hazy feeling there was some pretty nasty stuff in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, but according to Frosty that no longer applies (thanks to Jesus). (Although if it doesn't apply, personally I'd just whip it outta there quicker than a snake in my boot. Really, what can we possibly learn from this:

Quote originally posted by Deuteronomy 21:18-21:
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."
Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.
Seems to me that all that can come of that is misinterpretation and cruelty...
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  #402    
Old May 3rd, 2012 (03:51 AM). Edited May 3rd, 2012 by CarefulWetPaint.
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Barrels you can also sell your daughter into slavery, shes worth more if shes a virgin though.

EDIT
Heres what i was looking for barrels. It has the verses named so you can check them out. Credit: The interwebz
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7
. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

All the links link back to the page I found it and have what the verses are.
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  #403    
Old May 4th, 2012 (03:47 AM). Edited May 4th, 2012 by Barrels.
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Quote originally posted by CarefulWetPaint:
Barrels you can also sell your daughter into slavery, shes worth more if shes a virgin though.

-snipped-

All the links link back to the page I found it and have what the verses are.
This is actually good news in a weird sort of way, though! Because, hilariously, if anyone tries to quote Leviticus's 'homosexuality is an abomination' stuff at you, you can fire right back that if they've ever eaten shellfish, they too are abominable.

...But we're getting away from the main point - that, as Frosty said, those passages no longer apply to the vast majority of Christians. However. In the New Testament, I've found this:

'(26) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. (27) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.'

If this does still apply, it sums up one of the biggest reasons for my lack of belief in God.

EDIT: Found something else, guys...

Here's what I'd consider to be the most important parts.

Quote:
Unnatural Does Not Mean It's Wrong To Be Homosexual!

The issue is that Paul describes men as naturally preferring women. For men whose natural preference is for women, to have sex with a man would violate this, as in the case of Pederasty.
Quote:
To read Romans 1 without Romans 2 is a great error, for Paul goes on to say that we are not to judge each other! He points out the self-righteousness of those who have judged the pagans just described in Romans 1. Then he reiterates Jesus' command of the Golden Rule in his own words: "to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (2:6)".

So what's happened between Romans 1 and 2? Paul is using an "attention grabbing" technique like any good writer or speaker. In this letter, he is concerned with trying to bridge the gaps between Jewish Christians and Greek Christians who were judging each other and putting each other down.

Paul starts by talking about those "awful pagans" -- a group which both Jewish and Greek Christians felt superior to. He gives a laundry list of "sins" and the Christians are probably going "yeh, yeh, those bad people, we are better". Then, after having caught them in their judgementalism, he says "by judging, you pass judgement on yourself." By using a pagan example of sins, he could then go on to say, in effect- GOTCHA! Do not judge! He said, "God shows no partiality" (2:11).

Romans 1 is being misused today to bash homosexuality much as the Jewish and Greek Christians were bashing each other in his day. He did not write Chapter 1 to be used apart from Chapter 2. His point was not to reinforce judgementalism but to say stop judging.
Quote:
By misunderstanding Paul's argument, people unwittingly rely on tastes and customs instead of the word of God. They argue about what's dirty or clean, dispute who's pure and impure, and pit heterosexual against homosexual. Thus, they divide and splinter the church over what does not matter in Christ. In God's name they foment hatred and fuel oppression and disrupt society at large. They commit a grave injustice, the very offense that Paul's letter meant to counter.

This is a sad state of affairs. It is unworthy of followers of Jesus.
Still don't think that the inclusion of that passage is at all a good idea, but there does appear to be a possible explanation that isn't as homophobic.
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  #404    
Old May 5th, 2012 (04:28 AM).
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This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.
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  #405    
Old May 5th, 2012 (05:41 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.
Also Humans are the least natural* animal considering our lifestyles - cars, planes, having children later in life, having currency, being ashamed of nudity/wearing clothing, etc.

*Their definition of natural.
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  #406    
Old May 5th, 2012 (10:36 AM). Edited May 5th, 2012 by Alice.
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
This was a flaw I've always thought about with religion's view on homosexuality, but I've never really had an opportunity to bring it up. It goes unquestioned (at least in circles in which people have brains) that homosexuality is perfectly natural. But even if it weren't natural, why on earth should that mean that it's not acceptable? Why is it that when it comes to religion, everything has to be "natural" to be given the holy A-O-K?

There is far too much emphasis on what's 'normal' or 'common'.
I think a lot of Christians genuinely believe in the whole gay agenda thing... that we're out to destroy society and rape all of their children, etc.

My mom would talk about how "The Gays" were doing this or that all the time, as if they're some evil organization.
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Old May 6th, 2012 (11:57 PM).
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Quote originally posted by QuilavaKing:
I think a lot of Christians genuinely believe in the whole gay agenda thing... that we're out to destroy society and rape all of their children, etc.

My mom would talk about how "The Gays" were doing this or that all the time, as if they're some evil organization.
I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.

And did you talk to your mother about that? Or did you just go along with it?
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Old May 7th, 2012 (12:08 AM).
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My mom thinks the gays stole the rainbow but that's all. I don't think she's actually homophobic, but when she was a property manager for an apartment complex she put up rainbow flags because she thought they were pretty and was annoyed that everyone kept talking about them as if they implied something about gay rights or something like that, lol.

What's interesting is the "other person" mentality. If you ask someone who says that marriage would be destroyed about their own marriage, they'll claim that their marriage won't be lessened, but other peoples' marriages will be destroyed. It's a claim of the 'other' - they're smart enough/their marriage is strong enough, but other people's aren't.
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  #409    
Old May 7th, 2012 (04:49 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Toujours:
What's interesting is the "other person" mentality. If you ask someone who says that marriage would be destroyed about their own marriage, they'll claim that their marriage won't be lessened, but other peoples' marriages will be destroyed. It's a claim of the 'other' - they're smart enough/their marriage is strong enough, but other people's aren't.
That is indeed interesting - and it begs a question. Why do couples think it's any of their business if other couples' marriages break down as a result of same-sex marriage? Now they are not only trying to intervene in same sex marriages that are none of their business, but they are doing it on behalf of other opposite-sex marriages. Which are also none of their business.

Everybody just needs to focus on their own marriage and leave everybody else the hell alone.

And Mr. Pope, you don't even get to have a husband marriage, so get your big bony finger off the entire concept because it has nothing to do with you.
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  #410    
Old May 7th, 2012 (05:43 AM).
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Quote originally posted by CarefulWetPaint:
I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.
Mmm... I think it's too harsh to generalise all Christians under an umbrella like that. I reckon the vast majority do accept gay people and it's mostly just the ones who are homophobic to begin with who use the Bible to 'back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality', as you say.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I have enough faith in the human race to believe that the proportion of people who actively decide to become intolerant of homosexuality because they read a passage denouncing it right underneath one encouraging the stoning of your own children is very small indeed. Most of us would take that whole chapter - if not the entire book - with rather a large pinch of salt after that, methinks.

Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
Why do couples think it's any of their business if other couples' marriages break down as a result of same-sex marriage?
xD Why on earth would they break down? This just seems utterly ridiculous and unjustifiable to me. Surely the only marriages that might be affected are the ones where gay people have married the opposite gender (perhaps out of pressure from family) - and, painful as that would be to the spouse involved, they were kind of living a lie to begin with...
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Old May 7th, 2012 (06:18 AM).
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Well they wouldn't break down, it is ridiculous to even think that. I figured that much went without saying though, so that's why my go-to place was "everybody needs to mind their own business" instead xD
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  #412    
Old May 7th, 2012 (10:33 AM). Edited May 7th, 2012 by Alice.
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Quote originally posted by CarefulWetPaint:
I think it's pretty stupid the whole christians hating gays because god would have created the gay people and would love them and isnt it a christians duty to love everything made by god and accept everything? If I'm wrong about this just say I think its just a little hypocritical if they take one passage so strong yet reject others like the ones about slavery and say they arent relevant. Its just picking pieces that they want to back up their narrow minded beliefs on sexuality.

And did you talk to your mother about that? Or did you just go along with it?
No, you're 110% correct. Christians should love and forgive, not hate and judge. That's like the main focus of the religion.

When I came out to my mom she stopped talking about gays altogether.
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Old May 7th, 2012 (03:33 PM).
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@Barrels,
I didn't mean to generalise ALL Christians, just the ones that are against gay marriage and such, I know theres plenty of them who are all for it but I was meaning to be calling out on the ones that hate gays (I was replying to Quilava's post). Im sorry I didnt write it more clearly so you could understand that it wasnt generalising them all, just the haters!

@ShiningRaichu
I have to agree with you here. Someone else's marriage whether hetero or homo is not going too effect anyone elses marriage. Thats just silly >.<. And if it does obviously the effected marriage wasnt strong enough to make it the distance anyways.

@Quilava,
So your mother hasn't talked about it at all since you came out? Did she apologise for being rude at least?
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Old May 7th, 2012 (05:30 PM).
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Hie guys :3 Been waiting for an opportunity to pop in here! My family is currently dealing with a stupid situation with the homophobic parents of my sister's girlfriend. It sucks :P Apparently my sister is a bad influence on her daughter, and the parents believe that's what's "making their daughter gay." I dunno.

(But er hi everyone. I'm an atheist as well, been one for several years! I never explicitly told anyone except my sister and cousin, but it's sort of implied... I guess. My family is pretty much Christian, though 'how' Christian each part of the family is varies. My aunts and uncles are more religious than my parents, who are pretty laid-back about everything.)
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Old May 7th, 2012 (05:57 PM).
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Quote originally posted by voltianqueen:
Hie guys :3 Been waiting for an opportunity to pop in here! My family is currently dealing with a stupid situation with the homophobic parents of my sister's girlfriend. It sucks Apparently my sister is a bad influence on her daughter, and the parents believe that's what's "making their daughter gay." I dunno.

(But er hi everyone. I'm an atheist as well, been one for several years! I never explicitly told anyone except my sister and cousin, but it's sort of implied... I guess. My family is pretty much Christian, though 'how' Christian each part of the family is varies. My aunts and uncles are more religious than my parents, who are pretty laid-back about everything.)
Welcome to the club! Feel free to jump in to the discussion at anytime.

That sounds really stupid though. Do they think shes making their daughter gay from religious reasons or are they just homophobics?You should also join the LGBTS club if you havent already.

So what do you think about some homophobics using religion as an excuse for their hate?
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Old May 7th, 2012 (06:20 PM).
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It's pretty bad.. They are religious people, the kind that think that being gay - or whatever - is basically horrible and not right. At this point I think they're in denial about the whole thing and are trying to keep their daughter and my sister separated in hopes that it'll make her stop being gay... There's a lot more detail to the situation, but I don't want to mention too much since the gf's mother has been stalking my sister's online pages and I'm connected to basically all of them >.<

But yeah, hating anything based on religion or using the religion as an excuse for it is not something I agree with at all. I think the person should take the time to look at things objectively before deciding their opinion. And even if they don't agree that something is right, I think that people should at least respect other people's feelings/opinions/decisions on the matter. I've noticed that with things like homosexuality (or what have you) and abortion, it is really not the protestors' business what other people do! It does not affect them! There's a lesbian couple living across from me...I've lived here for 10 years and didn't even know that until a few weeks ago. That's how much their gayness affected me and the rest of the neighborhood....not at all.
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Old May 7th, 2012 (07:57 PM).
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Hey voltianqueen! Welcome! Adding you in now

Your little situation is interesting, because it's the other family who is homophobic, not your own. I never actually thought about it in such an abstract perspective... usually it's more immediate, "my parents are religious wingnuts who hate the gays" etc. Do you know if her parents are going to any extreme measures to keep them apart? Have you heard of any church interventions going on? I remember one of my friends came out and then the next night his parents had their pastor over for dinner to discuss it with him and try to discourage any action on his behalf.
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Old May 7th, 2012 (08:25 PM).
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The parents had her go to church counselling to ... talk about it. I don't know a whole lot about it since apparently it's hard to get information from gf, but from what I do know, they basically tell her it's not a good decision and want to come up with ways to 'reverse it' I guess. She's not allowed to have anything to do with foreign media, namely Japanese stuff, anymore, since it is supposedly a bad influence... (no pokemon ;_;) My sisters and I like anime and games and all that good stuff, so you see where it's going >.< They have also talked about switching her school next year so she may end up going to the private Catholic school in the area.

My parents have tried meeting up with her parents to try and work things out, compromise, but so far it's them who've been running this whole thing. Mom and Dad said they're at the point now where they're going to take a stand on this, especially after the creepy internet stalking. Who knows what'll happen next >__< I just want my sister to be back to normal and not worry about stuff all the time.
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Old May 7th, 2012 (09:23 PM).
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I thought they might have - bastards. The one saving grace in situations like these is that it's always the homophobic parents who lose in the end. Because they can invoke as many Gods and preachers and mystical forces as they like, but in the end it comes down to two options: they can have a gay daughter who they love and accept anyway, or they can have their faith and a gay daughter who lives on the other end of the country and never speaks to them as they grow old and die alone.

Either way, they have a gay daughter.
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Old May 7th, 2012 (11:34 PM).
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I totally agree with Andy, her parents should just accept the fact that their daughter is gay and the god(s) cant do anything to change the fact. I think trying to get their religious leaders to "reverse" it is just completely stupid and inconsiderate to the daughters feelings. And banning japanese stuff. END THEM NOW! I dont see how japanese related things can be seen as a bad influence. My god they are naive.

I hope that all ends well for your sister and her girlfriend though!

Has anyone else had an experience like this? Where religion has gotten in the way of accepting sexuality of you/a family member/partner like this?
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Old May 7th, 2012 (11:56 PM).
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Yeah, that's basically what my mom told them... She told me they said they would never accept it :( Who knows, people change, but it's awfully sad to think that they'd be willing to push their daughter away over something like this. The gf is really fighting them on it, and I feel proud in a way... She's standing up for the stuff she believes in, but in this situation I'm afraid it won't help much. I told her I'd always be there for support, but it seems like I can't or else I'll get dragged into this big mess, too..never mind that she can't contact me anyway ~__~

Hopefully the situation will get cleaned up soon, for better or worse ._.

(Feels like the banning Japanese stuff is just to put dirt on us cos we like it :P)
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Old May 9th, 2012 (07:11 AM).
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Well we should move on now, since we're probably heading into LGBT Club territory, so here is a little article I picked up on why this particular writer thinks atheism is bad for you. I think my favourite part is this paragraph:

Quote:
As an atheist you may be able to fulfil or satisfy some of your material or physical needs, e.g. cars, house, food etc. but atheism will never be able to satisfy man’s spiritual needs. Atheists will experience feelings of emptiness, a gap or void in their lives. “Something is missing in my life.” They will resort to try to fill that gap with various things but inevitably those feelings of emptiness will return. Atheists will of course vehemently try and deny this.
My favourite part being the last sentence: "Atheists will of course vehemently deny this." The writer put that in so that she could contradict in advance anything an atheist might say in response to the article. It is the ultimate cheap shot in debating tactics, because even though what she says is utter crap, if we go and try to say that, we'll just be atheists 'vehemently denying' the "truth".
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Old May 9th, 2012 (12:05 PM).
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I hate it when people say stuff like that... I've had a friend say to me that I might think I have a great life, but without Jesus I'll never know how much better it is :|

I never really know how to respond either XD Usually it's like "Well, no, not really, but okay." It was also weird because I didn't really wanna get into a religious discussion at Chuck E Cheese..
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Old May 9th, 2012 (03:32 PM).
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CarefulWetPaint CarefulWetPaint is offline
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I hate people like that so much >:@

How does she know what atheist feel? Is she an Atheist, NO. She has no right to say they we are "empty" because we don't believe that a deity has control over our lives and we have to bend the knee to this deity all the time. Ugh this kind of stuff makes me so angry!
Saying "Atheists will of course vehemently deny this" is an extremely cheap shot. I could write an article about how religious people are stupid and then at the end say "Religious people will of course deny this".

And your friend volti, slap them across the back of the head for me for being a tool. Saying your life is better then someone elses because YOU BELIEVE A FAIRY TAIL ONE THING its just so narrowminded and ugh! Makes me angry.

Being Atheist does not make you empty and being Religious does not make you full my god, people are stupid and it makes me cry.
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Old May 10th, 2012 (09:29 AM).
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Esper Esper is offline
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"Religion is true inb4 atheist counter-arguments"

So we non-believers like to talk about science being the best way of learning about the universe and all that, but how many of us have a scientific background/understanding/interest? How many of us came to atheism through science compared to those of us who were confronted with religion and rejected that?
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