Atheist Alliance

[Toujours]

Hahah that was my fault, sorry! xD;;; I fix!

[2Cool4Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

Well I didn't say every conflict included religion.

For other reasons atheists might consider religion an enemy. [bunch of tl;dr links that I've glossed over]

It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

1. Yes there is. The Arch Diocese or local church keeps records of each Confirmation. I don't have authorization to view private files. Sorry.
2. Excommunication is still the CCC, so no, it's no 'obsolete'.MODERN EXCOMMUNICATION
3. List of Excommunicated people. Including 21st century.
4. It's a personal preference, which I've already explained.

Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by 2Cool4Mewtwo

It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

Wait, what?

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

[Toujours]

Idk, I would be more forgiving tbh. He backed down from his point and realized that he was wrong, what more do you want from him? Lol

I wouldn't say saying that God doesn't exist is like insulting your parents, because it's not an insult. God is like a parent to many, yeah, that's why he's the Father and such, but when you say he doesn't exist, it's not an insult per se. If you said "God does exist but he's evil", that would be a different thing, and I think a small minority does believe that, but I think the general atheist belief is "the idea of your God is nice, if only he existed". I can't think of a more apt analogy though, lol.

[PhantomX0990]

Oh, I'm not mad. I'm just giving advice. Before you come to a debate you should know something about what you're talking about.

Look all I want is to have my name off. It's personal and might not make sense to an outsider, but I'm not doing it to make sense to anyone, I'm doing it for me.

[QuilavaKing]

I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?

Trying my best not to step on my toes. Just genuinely curious.

[Shining Raichu]

To be honest, I've never seen an atheist try to convince others that God doesn't exist. I'm not denying it happens because I'm certain it does, but I've never seen the situation occur so I can't judge it from that standpoint or speak with any degree of certainty. I've never tried to convince others myself that God doesn't exist either - I know he doesn't exist, and I feel like it would be a waste of energy trying to use logic to fight faith when all logic can do is provide proof that God doesn't exist while faith, by definition, is blind and does not require proof. I prefer to denounce religion rather than the belief in God, which are two very separate things.

But thinking about it, this is my speculation. Since the atheists in question are trying to pull people away from God, it's seen as sinister while the Christians who are trying to force people into him can only be seen as at the very least well-intentioned. But I think it's possible that the atheists have good intentions as well. Atheists are atheists for a reason, and the ones who are militant enough to try to convert people would have less than favourable views of religion. It makes sense to me that they would be trying to help or save people as well by attempting to show them that they don't need to live in fear of divine retribution or live by the often perverse restrictions that religion provides.

[jpp8]

I feel in the same vein as Shining Raichu. God and Jesus sound like pretty cool guys in the same vein that Superman and Batman sound like pretty cool guys (OK, maybe not so much God, people should take notes from Jesus). I've no problem really if you like those folks because everyone has their own personal favorite characters and that you are not imposing your opinions on everyone systematically. However, I have less than favorable views of how the institutions known as "religion" have integrated within our governments and corporations in order to enforce their interests upon the entirety of the population in the name of those awesome people. I really could care less that your institution promotes love, peace, charity, and all that when they're systematically forcing the populace to practice their outdated social beliefs in legislation, such as treating women and LGBT+ persons as second-class.

As for atheist denial of god, it's one thing for religion to be a spiritual exploration of the self. It's another to be a fundamentalist who outright denies research and experimental facts because of god. Because of the volume of the outcries of many such fundamentalists, to atheists, the concept of a god is more of a monument to anti-intellectualism than and all powerful and benevolent being from which morals should be derived.

[Charlie Kelly]

Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?

I think it's assumed far too often that Christians are doing it to help anyone but themselves. I feel like more often it's just the fact they don't want to share a world with non-Christians, and though they may never be friends with those ex-gays and former satanist-witches, they could think about tolerating them once they handed their lives over to their god. I equate it to a black family moving into an all-white neighborhood and only being somewhat accepted when they start acting like the white families.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by Charlie Kelly

Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!

Oh, I know. I'm just saying that most Atheists that I meet act like that, regardless of setting. Some even bully Christians irl etc. Quite a few of my closer friends are like that actually, although we've never discussed our beliefs, I've just seen them doing it to other people.

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone?

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone?

I've had to explain agnosticism to people in the past, lol.

But I think it's somewhat along the lines of the people that are both argumentative and atheist (not everyone obviously but they do exist) feel often as if they're "educating" the other person. Since many atheists come from a religious background and they 'saw the light' and turned to the logic of atheism, they could feel like the religious person is only religious because they haven't seen the light of logic. It's similar to the Christians who evangelize - they want to help people by helping them see the light of God and live a holy life, while atheists want to help people by helping them see the light of logic and live an intellectual life.

Although I've never heard an atheist irl try to convince someone they're wrong, and even online I've seen arguments towards Christians in general but never one where one atheist tries to convince one Christian that their way is the right way. I have seen it flipped though, both irl and online.

[Shining Raichu]

Hey Charlie, welcome! :D

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone

Yeah, I have lol - my stupid grandmother. I spent a good fifteen minutes trying to convince her that such a thing even existed. She was so far removed from reality that she couldn't even conceive of a state of mind in which someone does not believe in God. She liked me a lot less after that conversation lol

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by Toujours

I've had to explain agnosticism to people in the past, lol.

But I think it's somewhat along the lines of the people that are both argumentative and atheist (not everyone obviously but they do exist) feel often as if they're "educating" the other person. Since many atheists come from a religious background and they 'saw the light' and turned to the logic of atheism, they could feel like the religious person is only religious because they haven't seen the light of logic. It's similar to the Christians who evangelize - they want to help people by helping them see the light of God and live a holy life, while atheists want to help people by helping them see the light of logic and live an intellectual life.

Although I've never heard an atheist irl try to convince someone they're wrong, and even online I've seen arguments towards Christians in general but never one where one atheist tries to convince one Christian that their way is the right way. I have seen it flipped though, both irl and online.

I think it's likely that we don't notice it nearly as much when we agree with the ones doing the preaching/bullying. I'm sure Christians do it far more than I realize, though it is kind of our job, so I've definitely seen it happen. lol

[Shining Raichu]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

though it is kind of our job

This fascinates me. It's your job to turn more people into Christians?

[QuilavaKing]

Well, pretty much. Considering what we believe happens to people who aren't saved, you'd be a pretty horrible person if you didn't want to save* as many people as possible. I mean, if I could go back and time and save Hitler I would do it without a second thought. I don't think anyone deserves hell, no matter what they've done.


*By which, I mean making them Christians so they go to heaven, not hell.

[Shining Raichu]

So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

I think it's likely that we don't notice it nearly as much when we agree with the ones doing the preaching/bullying. I'm sure Christians do it far more than I realize, though it is kind of our job, so I've definitely seen it happen. lol

I can confirm that I have never ever heard someone irl do that. But I went to a Catholic high school and now a Catholic college, so if students were anything it was mostly nonreligious because actual atheism is so far from the values they were trying to instill in us. Still, of all the atheists I did know, you would never have been able to tell they were an atheist unless we started expressly discussing religion. I didn't know my DM in college was an atheist until I invited him to the God Debate on campus and he mentioned that the atheist debater was a role model of his, and this was probably 6-8 months after I met him.

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

This fascinates me. It's your job to turn more people into Christians?

I think there's something somewhere that says all Christians (or Catholics at least) are supposed to evangelize with everything they do and try to least the 'stray sheep' back into the flock. Think of it this way - say you were in a group of people that actually drank water. The rest of the people were slowly dying since they wouldn't drink any water. You would try to convince them to drink water, right? It's kind of that way, but spiritual. The idea is to "help" people that don't believe so they can be saved as well.

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?

Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)

Originally Posted by Toujours

I think there's something somewhere that says all Christians (or Catholics at least) are supposed to evangelize with everything they do and try to least the 'stray sheep' back into the flock. Think of it this way - say you were in a group of people that actually drank water. The rest of the people were slowly dying since they wouldn't drink any water. You would try to convince them to drink water, right? It's kind of that way, but spiritual. The idea is to "help" people that don't believe so they can be saved as well.

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, if someone was going to commit suicide, and you thought you could stop them, and make them feel happy again, wouldn't you? It's more or less the same.

[2Cool4Mewtwo]

1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)

Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,

Originally Posted by "Gospel of John 3:1-8 (NIV)

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Baptism is for the removal of Original Sin; which cannot be removed from confession.

Originally Posted by 2Cool4Mewtwo

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I said nothing of the sort.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Command/imperative sentences? I'm not sure what you mean, that's just how I talk? *confused*

I never insulted intelligence! I will admit I was upset when I wrote that. But I explained later what I meant. I was just giving advice, take it or leave it.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.


If you know anything about debates you should know never to take anything personal. This is why this particular discussion is always a hard topic.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Don't judge all people on the premise that you don't like the few that you've met. That's wrong. The thing is you're doing what a lot of people do in this debate, you're taking things to a personal level. The members of this 'aliance' are just stating facts. Sorry if my way of stating them in a list is wrong? or something? It's just how I organize my thoughts. You're lashing back for your beliefs, which is fine and understandable. Getting angry or upset is something to be avoided, a hard thing to do.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

Like I said before, don't take debates personal.

Also, again. I am a woman, thank you very much.

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by 2Cool4Mewtwo

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.

I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,



Baptism is for the removal of Original Sin; which cannot be removed from confession.

Even when I was Catholic, I still held the belief that after you died God/Jesus would reveal themselves to you and give you a chance to repent knowing that they do exist, and baptize/accept you right there if you repented. It mitigated the unfairness of the millions of people that don't even know Catholicism exists but are still good people to me.

If God did exist that's how I hope He would work honestly.

Edit@QK:

Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist.

If you don't mind, would you quote some sentences that you believe are elitist-sounding? I looked through everything since you posted and tried to find something and all I saw was a slant towards atheism, which would be understandable given the nature of the club, lol.