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  #2451    
Old March 13th, 2012 (08:34 PM).
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Hey, um...

I'd like to join...

Uhm....................................awkward

Also, I want to ask a question. What would you call it if you're, uh, "gay", but you are currently refusing to accept that you are?

Because it would be nice to know what I should call myself...
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  #2452    
Old March 13th, 2012 (09:34 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
Hey, um...

I'd like to join...

Uhm....................................awkward

Also, I want to ask a question. What would you call it if you're, uh, "gay", but you are currently refusing to accept that you are?

Because it would be nice to know what I should call myself...
The same question goes to my head :D
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  #2453    
Old March 14th, 2012 (01:56 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Keiran777:
So you're saying...we should abort this topic.
LOL.

Quote originally posted by droomph:
Hey, um...

I'd like to join...

Uhm....................................awkward

Also, I want to ask a question. What would you call it if you're, uh, "gay", but you are currently refusing to accept that you are?

Because it would be nice to know what I should call myself...
Hey droomph, welcome! It's not awkward at all, we're always happy to have new blood around

I don't think there's a specific word for that, but "closeted" and "self-loathing" both come to mind as possibilities, if you really need to label it for yourself. Though that second one may seem a little harsh lol

Anyway, if you're refusing to accept that you're gay, that's totally normal. Most people your age dealing with such things would find it an overwhelming prospect - but that's why groups like this exist; we're here to help you - so you can ask us anything or talk to us about anything, we're a safe space. Or if you want to talk to someone privately about it, you're welcome to VM or PM me (or add me on MSN) any time!

Quote originally posted by 90210:
The same question goes to my head :D
Hi there! Were you looking to join us as well? :3
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  #2454    
Old March 14th, 2012 (07:07 AM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
Hey, um...

I'd like to join...

Uhm....................................awkward

Also, I want to ask a question. What would you call it if you're, uh, "gay", but you are currently refusing to accept that you are? :|

Because it would be nice to know what I should call myself...
If someone is "gay" (with the quotation marks), rather than just gay, that could mean a lot of different things, but I think the proper term is "questioning."

Lots of people go through a part of their lives where they think they might be gay (or bi, asexual, etc.) and for some it's difficult because it's not how they imagine themselves or how they grew up. The best thing for someone who is gay but not accepting of themselves (or someone who just isn't sure) is to know that they aren't alone, that there are people who can help them if they feel they need help, and that whether they choose to define themselves as straight, gay, bi, homoromantic, or anything else they are all okay things to be and nothing anyone should make them feel ashamed of.

But I think if anyone asks you and you want to give them an answer you should say you're questioning. It might sound a little weak to use a word like that, but it doesn't make whatever sexuality you have (or will have) any less valid because you had to question it. Really, it makes it stronger because you did. I'm just adding this because sometimes you need to have something you can say to someone if they ask.
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  #2455    
Old March 14th, 2012 (07:53 AM).
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Quote originally posted by -ty-:
I think that the "one nation, under god" is not really worth losing sleep over. If you don't want to recite that section of the pledge, then you have the choice to not recite it. If you want to recite that section of the pledge, then you should have the choice to recite it. There are other issues that deserve more attention.

Gay Marriage and abortion should be looked at as secular issues. The Supreme Court has developed several secular tests that determine the Constitutionality of a law, although these "tests" are often very subjective in their application.

Gay Marriage does not negatively affect others. The soundbite we always here is, "gay marriage goes against my definition of marriage." The argument fails to show how gay marriage affects opponents' marriages...
I think a problem here is that States/Country 'try' pushing Gay Marriage laws through as though they need the opinion, which in turn kind of allows comments such as 'marriage goes against my definition of marriage'. Instead governments should be pushing laws through regardless, in the interest of human rights and equality laws - rather than letting the people against change, in some places an overwhelming majority, have a say.



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  #2456    
Old March 14th, 2012 (01:18 PM).
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Heya, guys. I would like to join this club, being gay myself and all, and since this seems like a friendly place.
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  #2457    
Old March 14th, 2012 (02:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
Hey droomph, welcome! It's not awkward at all, we're always happy to have new blood around

I don't think there's a specific word for that, but "closeted" and "self-loathing" both come to mind as possibilities, if you really need to label it for yourself. Though that second one may seem a little harsh lol

Anyway, if you're refusing to accept that you're gay, that's totally normal. Most people your age dealing with such things would find it an overwhelming prospect - but that's why groups like this exist; we're here to help you - so you can ask us anything or talk to us about anything, we're a safe space. Or if you want to talk to someone privately about it, you're welcome to VM or PM me (or add me on MSN) any time!
Quote originally posted by Scarf:
If someone is "gay" (with the quotation marks), rather than just gay, that could mean a lot of different things, but I think the proper term is "questioning."

Lots of people go through a part of their lives where they think they might be gay (or bi, asexual, etc.) and for some it's difficult because it's not how they imagine themselves or how they grew up. The best thing for someone who is gay but not accepting of themselves (or someone who just isn't sure) is to know that they aren't alone, that there are people who can help them if they feel they need help, and that whether they choose to define themselves as straight, gay, bi, homoromantic, or anything else they are all okay things to be and nothing anyone should make them feel ashamed of.

But I think if anyone asks you and you want to give them an answer you should say you're questioning. It might sound a little weak to use a word like that, but it doesn't make whatever sexuality you have (or will have) any less valid because you had to question it. Really, it makes it stronger because you did. I'm just adding this because sometimes you need to have something you can say to someone if they ask.
Thanks...nice to know!

You're all so supportive...

It's only because my parents are Asian-nice to me (like, they accept my Bs), and I couldn't even imagine what would happen to me if I told them the truth.

Also it's because I don't want to become "the gay uncle" at all the family reunions. I mean, that's nice, but not something for me.

And "gay" and "computer guy" don't really want to be in the same sentence.

Thanks guys, I could never tell anyone...and I still can't but that's gonna change

BACK OFF BIBLE HUMPERS HERE I COME (out)
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  #2458    
Old March 14th, 2012 (03:09 PM).
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http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/03/06/mass-effect-3-backlash-why-gamers-should-be-ashamed/
http://www.thegameeffect.com/news/fans-slam-mass-effect-3-on-metacritic-with-anti-gay-reviews

Well, this is depressing, though not surprising. I'm fairly certain the first two games had lesbian sex scenes, and everyone loved that.



Also, glad we're getting so many new members. Stay with us for awhile guys. :D
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  #2459    
Old March 14th, 2012 (03:26 PM).
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Quote originally posted by QuilavaKing:
http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/03/06/mass-effect-3-backlash-why-gamers-should-be-ashamed/
http://www.thegameeffect.com/news/fans-slam-mass-effect-3-on-metacritic-with-anti-gay-reviews

Well, this is depressing, though not surprising. I'm fairly certain the first two games had lesbian sex scenes, and everyone loved that.



Also, glad we're getting so many new members. Stay with us for awhile guys. :D

Baring in mind I have never played any of the Mass Effect games...

From what I understand ME (rather like COD) is one of those 'all real men play ____' kind of games. The comments on the review make it sound like there is literally a porn scene? I imagine they're probably blowing it out of proportion, but if there actually is a sex scene... Well I'd rather not have any sex in my games ;_;.

I think in Western vs Eastern games comparison, the Western rarely have effeminate, timid, or generally men that aren't RAH KILL, LOOK AT MY MUSCLES. Eastern games tend to have much more variety, and certainly a lot less manlyman type characters.

----

Watched videos, I really commend the makers for doing this actually. It's good to break down stereotypes, and from what I can tell they definitely do that.

Also, from what I've seen anyway, making the character gay is entirely up to the players choice - so what difference does it make to them anyway?

(And there is a lesbian scene, bet the same people aren't complaining about that...)
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  #2460    
Old March 14th, 2012 (03:45 PM).
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It's absolutely terrible that people can be that way, especially if it is all just optional and the protagonist may just as well not deal in homosexual relationships. I think that the reviews are largely exaggerated on the level of how much it's forced down people's throats, and that the heterosexual option turning out be renegade was largely at the fault of the previous actions of the player, possibly intentional just to find something to complain about.

This does remind me of the entirely optional, and perfectly ignorable option in Skyrim to also marry those of the same sex, which got a similar criticism, though not as vocal as this.

The thing is, these people aren't just asking for their own choices to stay a heterosexual character have equal opportunity, they just want to sweep any hint of homosexuality, any hint of people who are on their subjective list of people that are one of "them", to not be present.

I'd be pissed too if a supposed open-choice game would force a specific direction down the throat of the protagonist, purely for roleplaying value's sake, but they're taking it over the top cranked up to eleven.
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  #2461    
Old March 15th, 2012 (01:17 AM).
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Welcome EGKangaroo! I noticed your thread up in NU/W and I very nearly said hi but I suck at those threads and can never think of anything to say in them XD

I tend to agree with SwiftSign about the Mass Effect thing. Straight men are likely (in fact, in the more "manly" or "badass" - or pseudo-badass in the case of hardcore gamers - it's almost required) to be overtly homophobic just to prove that they themselves are not gay. It's 'cool' to be grossed out by such things just to make sure everybody knows that they like vagina and penis is never OK. It is disgusting and it's no excuse, but I'm not really all that surprised by it either. I don't think they realise the damage they're causing.
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  #2462    
Old March 15th, 2012 (03:07 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
Welcome EGKangaroo! I noticed your thread up in NU/W and I very nearly said hi but I suck at those threads and can never think of anything to say in them XD

I tend to agree with SwiftSign about the Mass Effect thing. Straight men are likely (in fact, in the more "manly" or "badass" - or pseudo-badass in the case of hardcore gamers - it's almost required) to be overtly homophobic just to prove that they themselves are not gay. It's 'cool' to be grossed out by such things just to make sure everybody knows that they like vagina and penis is never OK. It is disgusting and it's no excuse, but I'm not really all that surprised by it either. I don't think they realise the damage they're causing.
Yeah, I never got that. Why do they have to stop gay people from marrying, unless gay people are the ones running around ruining their favorite t-shirt every day?

Maybe we should show them some love and tell them nicely that no one cares that they're straight, just as we generally don't show that we're gay/bisexual/etc. (although there are some that do...)
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  #2463    
Old March 15th, 2012 (06:51 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
Welcome EGKangaroo! I noticed your thread up in NU/W and I very nearly said hi but I suck at those threads and can never think of anything to say in them XD

I tend to agree with SwiftSign about the Mass Effect thing. Straight men are likely (in fact, in the more "manly" or "badass" - or pseudo-badass in the case of hardcore gamers - it's almost required) to be overtly homophobic just to prove that they themselves are not gay. It's 'cool' to be grossed out by such things just to make sure everybody knows that they like vagina and penis is never OK. It is disgusting and it's no excuse, but I'm not really all that surprised by it either. I don't think they realise the damage they're causing.
I can't stand those kinds of gamers, they irk me to no end, using gay as an insult or calling someone a stupid Jew. I don't get why everything has to be so over-masculinized. What scares me is more and more kids are becoming like this, I'm watching my barely 12 year old cousin turning into one of the macho-gamers who only plays FPS's and calls everything gay. :'|
whoa, i made a constructive post, nice.
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  #2464    
Old March 20th, 2012 (08:47 AM). Edited March 20th, 2012 by Magic.
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I recently came across a tumblr blog (that was written by, and about, transgender discrimination (along with most other types of discrimination).

One thing I have always wondered is why Transexuals are grouped with Lesbian, Gay and Bisexuals. As far as I can see it, sexuality is something entirely different to gender identity - and transgender is something I find very hard to get my head around. Perhaps because I try to approach it from a scientific point of view and just hit a wall.

To me, Gender is the make up of your sex chromosomes, XY - XX. Sometimes alternatives crop up in Humans, (XO, XXY, XYY, etc.) but they are separate steps, there isn't a scale of gender from the genetic/biological point of view. Gender as transpeople see it, I assume, is which gender stereotype they feel they belong to, or have most in common with - To me this means that transexuals are that way because they were brought up to believe they should be the opposite sex.

I know not everyone is the same, and I have seen people talk about how they are gender-fluid, and range in which gender they identify with, however... isn't that the case for everyone, to some extent? I can feel manly or feminine whilst still being myself, however I don't feel the need to put a label on my conscious gender - I am who I am, regardless of how I act or what I like, but I have a penis and therefore am Male. To me, issuing the label of 'trans' instantly infers that a person is not comfortable with who they are, and so has had to put a label on it.

There have been plenty of documentaries over the years following transexuals, going through their hardships and learning to be themselves. Often there are cases where children as young as seven are identifying as Transexual (although I'm hoping that's a rarity) and are already undergoing planning for surgery and hormone treatments to make them how they want to be. To me this is ridiculous, whilst an adult probably has a good handle on how they feel about themselves, children are utterly suggestible - Tell a boy that it's girly to like pink and voila, he'll hate pink for years! So what if you tell him that, and because he likes pink already he feels he should be a girl?... I do worry that such small things could actually drive someone to doubt themselves - just to conform with norms and stereotypes.

So yes, back to this blog I was speaking of. At first I thought it was a great page educating people, and the further I got down the more appalled I was at how hateful the blogger was towards 'cis' people and 'cis-supremacy'. Even directing it at ANYONE who identified to a gender, whether they were understanding or not. Now, I might just be ignorant, but I think that it's much harder to understand how someone can feel so strongly that they are in the body of the wrong gender, then it is for someone to find the same gender attractive, or both genders attractive, etc.

From my point of view of Gender there isn't even a need for the labels 'cis' and 'trans', but I know this is important to some people, and I would really love to be educated and have someone explain what it feels like, since I'm really not in a position to understand at the moment.
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  #2465    
Old March 20th, 2012 (09:09 AM). Edited March 20th, 2012 by Esper.
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Here I was, trying to bring some activity back to the thread and someone beats me to it.

I'm gonna post this then edit later to address what SwiftSign posted.

Anyway, here is my news addition. First some bad:
  • The president of Liberia and co-winner of last year's Nobel Peace Price, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, has defended her country's laws which criminalize homosexuality. Currently you could go to prison for a year, but new laws may imposes harsher penalties. [link 1] [link 2]
  • The people behind the KONY 2012 video (which is ostensibly about bringing awareness to a nasty guy named Kony and children being exploited) and its group Invisible Children may have ties to anti-gay groups in America and Africa. [link 1] [link 2]
Then some good news:
  • The White House is (or has already, I believe) hosting a conference on issues facing LGBT students, particularly focusing on stopping bullying and violence. [link]




EDIT:


First, the censors hid the name of the blog so the link goes nowhere.

Second, there are hateful people of all types: trangender, cisgender, genderfluid and anyone else. Don't take this person's views as necessarily representative of the rest of us. Cis-privilage is something which can be bothersome/hurtful/angering though so I can understand where anger might come from with that.

Ideally, yes, we wouldn't really need to use 'cis' and 'trans' as labels because we could all accept everyone. From a very practical point of view we need a term like 'trans' so that we can find other trans people and get help and support. Having a name for yourself makes it easier to see that you're not alone in the world and makes it easier to speak to other people with a sense of self-confidence. "I know who I am and this is who I am." That kind of thing. It facilitates communication and understanding.

Gender is a funny thing. Some people think it's entirely genetic or entirely socially constructed (a.k.a. stereotypes). The simplest way I can explain why a trans person is a trans person is because they feel they don't belong with the gender identity that they were assigned at birth. It's a feeling, and because it's a feeling that isn't tied to sexuality it doesn't need to wait until someone reaches puberty to know. Of course people are concerned, like you, that children might just be suggestible which is why there are lots of talks with professionals and parents and so on to make sure that a child is speaking genuinely about their feelings, but even without that it's pretty clear in lots of kids that their feelings are genuine.
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  #2466    
Old March 20th, 2012 (09:55 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
First, the censors hid the name of the blog so the link goes nowhere.

Second, there are hateful people of all types: trangender, cisgender, genderfluid and anyone else. Don't take this person's views as necessarily representative of the rest of us. Cis-privilage is something which can be bothersome/hurtful/angering though so I can understand where anger might come from with that.

Ideally, yes, we wouldn't really need to use 'cis' and 'trans' as labels because we could all accept everyone. From a very practical point of view we need a term like 'trans' so that we can find other trans people and get help and support. Having a name for yourself makes it easier to see that you're not alone in the world and makes it easier to speak to other people with a sense of self-confidence. "I know who I am and this is who I am." That kind of thing. It facilitates communication and understanding.

Gender is a funny thing. Some people think it's entirely genetic or entirely socially constructed (a.k.a. stereotypes). The simplest way I can explain why a trans person is a trans person is because they feel they don't belong with the gender identity that they were assigned at birth. It's a feeling, and because it's a feeling that isn't tied to sexuality it doesn't need to wait until someone reaches puberty to know. Of course people are concerned, like you, that children might just be suggestible which is why there are lots of talks with professionals and parents and so on to make sure that a child is speaking genuinely about their feelings, but even without that it's pretty clear in lots of kids that their feelings are genuine.
Damn u__u I thought that might bypass the censoring, nevermind! ><

Anyway, thank you for a response. I guess someone identifying as Trans is quite a complicated business, depending on what their own definition of gender is - which in turn may affect their actions and their self image.

That being said - if Trans is simply a feeling of being 'wrong' or 'different' - does that mean that if gender stereotypes lessened, which is arguably happening now, then the amount of people who have a gender-crisis would be less? For example, it's becoming a lot more fashionable in recent years for men to wear pink, so would less people identify as trans (if they were conflicted over that).

--------------------

Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Anyway, here is my news addition. First some bad:
  • The president of Liberia and co-winner of last year's Nobel Peace Price, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, has defended her country's laws which criminalize homosexuality. Currently you could go to prison for a year, but new laws may imposes harsher penalties.
  • The people behind the KONY 2012 video (which is ostensibly about bringing awareness to a nasty guy named Kony and children being exploited) and its group Invisible Children may have ties to anti-gay groups in America and Africa.
Then some good news:
  • The White House is (or has already, I believe) hosting a conference on issues facing LGBT students, particularly focusing on stopping bullying and violence.
I'm really not surprised with the Invisible Children organisation, their whole premise is a farce - how they haven't been shut down after the exposure of how they manage donations and things I don't know.

A peace prize winner advocating discrimination against 10% of the world population, lovely! Generally the treatment of homosexuality is dreadful however, so it's certainly not unusual that she is supporting what the vast majority believe, and have been told to believe, for many years. It is quite saddening that this is the total opposite of what is happening in the West, with the White House taking that conference and the UK, which held a conference regarding gay marriage in churches recently.
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  #2467    
Old March 20th, 2012 (10:19 AM).
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
Damn u__u I thought that might bypass the censoring, nevermind! ><

Anyway, thank you for a response. I guess someone identifying as Trans is quite a complicated business, depending on what their own definition of gender is - which in turn may affect their actions and their self image.

That being said - if Trans is simply a feeling of being 'wrong' or 'different' - does that mean that if gender stereotypes lessened, which is arguably happening now, then the amount of people who have a gender-crisis would be less? For example, it's becoming a lot more fashionable in recent years for men to wear pink, so would less people identify as trans (if they were conflicted over that).
I can't speak for everyone, but I think fewer people would have a "crisis" over it, but that there would be more people who would fall under a "trans" category whether they specifically called themselves that or not. I don't think we're very close to that though since gender can wiggle its way into everything you do.

I dunno, I'm not the best person to talk about this because my feelings and thoughts on it change around a bit.


Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
I'm really not surprised with the Invisible Children organisation, their whole premise is a farce - how they haven't been shut down after the exposure of how they manage donations and things I don't know.

A peace prize winner advocating discrimination against 10% of the world population, lovely! Generally the treatment of homosexuality is dreadful however, so it's certainly not unusual that she is supporting what the vast majority believe, and have been told to believe, for many years. It is quite saddening that this is the total opposite of what is happening in the West, with the White House taking that conference and the UK, which held a conference regarding gay marriage in churches recently.
Part of the backlash against gay people in parts of Africa (and maybe other parts of the world - I dunno, I've only read about it with a few places) is that lots of aid gets handed out on the promise that countries do better with their human rights, specifically on LGBT rights. A lot of people in these countries feel that's some kind of imperialist holdover or some such thing so they then start to see gay rights as an outside pressure rather than a local movement and that stirs up more anger.
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  #2468    
Old March 20th, 2012 (10:30 AM). Edited March 20th, 2012 by Patatas Fritas.
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
Damn u__u I thought that might bypass the censoring, nevermind! ><

Anyway, thank you for a response. I guess someone identifying as Trans is quite a complicated business, depending on what their own definition of gender is - which in turn may affect their actions and their self image.

That being said - if Trans is simply a feeling of being 'wrong' or 'different' - does that mean that if gender stereotypes lessened, which is arguably happening now, then the amount of people who have a gender-crisis would be less? For example, it's becoming a lot more fashionable in recent years for men to wear pink, so would less people identify as trans (if they were conflicted over that).
I strongly disagree, gender identity is very much so a genetic thing - There is scientific evidence to support this - Men and women have different structures of the brain, as you may know, studies have proven time and time again that trans-people have the same brain structure as the sex they perceive themselves to be, this is prior to hormonal therapy and afterwards thus meaning that it clearly doesn't change due to the hormones. Being trans is very different to just stereotypes, many trans-people are disgusted by the body they posses as it is not who they know themselves to be - Children as young as four identify as trans and you can't honestly tell me that's due to upbringing - That's a ridiculous notion. If you discourage a child to play with things associated with the opposite sex then surely that would lead them AWAY from being trans and confirm a cis identity? Clearly not. Plenty do deny it and try to live life in the wrong body, not very many do - A lot commit suicide and many others will eventually transition later in life, generally after desperately trying to man themselves up/feminise themselves, showing it's not going to change just like that.

All the evidence suggests our gender identity is an unchangeable, deeply ingrained thing which becomes apparently as we learn differences between male and female. As for why the transgender spectrum is linked with the LGBQIAA is because the whole point is a fight for equal rights and the fact that they are "different" and they're "not normal".

EDIT:Also, I think we all appreciate you're trying to learn as knowledge is power!
You may be a little misunderstood however, as scientifically "gender" is "the gender identity" and sex is biological, referring to chromosomes. It is also probably a good idea to ask if you consider people to always be the sex they were assigned as at birth? What are intersex people then? Neither? I should also mention there are girls born girls who are classified as "XY" and boys born boys who are classified "XX" - Are they male/female?
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Old March 20th, 2012 (10:56 AM).
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Quote originally posted by ~Kawaii~:

I strongly disagree, gender identity is very much so a genetic thing - There is scientific evidence to support this - Men and women have different structures of the brain, as you may know, studies have proven time and time again that trans-people have the same brain structure as the sex they perceive themselves to be, this is prior to hormonal therapy and afterwards thus meaning that it clearly doesn't change due to the hormones. Being trans is very different to just stereotypes, many trans-people are disgusted by the body they posses as it is not who they know themselves to be - Children as young as four identify as trans and you can't honestly tell me that's due to upbringing - That's a ridiculous notion. If you discourage a child to play with things associated with the opposite sex then surely that would lead them AWAY from being trans and confirm a cis identity? Clearly not. Plenty do deny it and try to live life in the wrong body, not very many do - A lot commit suicide and many others will eventually transition later in life, generally after desperately trying to man themselves up/feminise themselves, showing it's not going to change just like that.

All the evidence suggests our gender identity is an unchangeable, deeply ingrained thing which becomes apparently as we learn differences between male and female. As for why the transgender spectrum is linked with the LGBQIAA is because the whole point is a fight for equal rights and the fact that they are "different" and they're "not normal".

EDIT:Also, I think we all appreciate you're trying to learn as knowledge is power!
You may be a little misunderstood however, as scientifically "gender" is "the gender identity" and sex is biological, referring to chromosomes. It is also probably a good idea to ask if you consider people to always be the sex they were assigned as at birth? What are intersex people then? Neither? I should also mention there are girls born girls who are classified as "XY" and boys born boys who are classified "XX" - Are they male/female?
Ah you are right, I did overlook what the variants on sex chromosomes should be classified as - generally though the sex (which is interchangeable with gender in many aspects of our life - would a trans person not answer Gender: and Sex: the same on a questionnaire?) put on the birth certificate is that which they most physically resemble when born. If they are not distinguishable often the parents actually decide on which sex they think would work best and surgery starts from an early age.

As to the brain differences and things, do you know of any papers that say this? I study biology at University so we have quite large databases to search, but all I can find are studies that actually say the complete opposite - that gender dysphoria has no physical signs, and can only be diagnosed through what the person says (from a paper in 2009). I do doubt that brain structure is actually affected - unless it's the cause of hormone fluctuation that people often refer to as causing men to be gay (Although that is yet to be proved as well).

To be honest... I would put a child aged 4, thinking they belonged at the opposite sex, down to their upbringing. However I wouldn't worry about the feeling of 'not being themselves' so much. I think that putting a label on identity at such a young age is bad for children - I understand it's different to a child 'coming out' at such a young age, but it's similar in the idea that it's a life changing decision or statement. I would imagine it would be hard for a child to say they changed their mind once they, or someone else, 'diagnosed' them.
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Old March 20th, 2012 (11:08 AM).
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
Ah you are right, I did overlook what the variants on sex chromosomes should be classified as - generally though the sex (which is interchangeable with gender ><) put on the birth certificate is that which they most physically resemble when born. If they are not distinguishable often the parents actually decide on which sex they think would work best and surgery starts from an early age.

As to the brain differences and things, do you know of any papers that say this? I study biology at University so we have quite large databases to search, but all I can find are studies that actually say the complete opposite - that gender dysphoria has no physical signs, and can only be diagnosed through what the person says (from a paper in 2009). I do doubt that brain structure is actually affected - unless it's the cause of hormone fluctuation that people often refer to as causing men to be gay (Although that is yet to be proved as well).

To be honest... I would put a child aged 4, thinking they belonged at the opposite sex, down to their upbringing. However I wouldn't worry about the feeling of 'not being themselves' so much. I think that putting a label on identity at such a young age is bad for children - I understand it's different to a child 'coming out' at such a young age, but it's similar in the idea that it's a life changing decision or statement. I would imagine it would be hard for a child to say they changed their mind once they, or someone else, 'diagnosed' them.
It takes years for a child to be diagnosed, a child of that age will never be diagnosed as such. As children it is much easier to change our minds and say no things, it's only as we grow we are taught not to say no to everything. Like I said before, I don't think it's even remotely feasible to claim that a child thinking that at such a young age is due to upbringing.

I'll have a look when I have time for those studies, and let you know if I can get them. Personally I don't feel that we should be teaching children such strict gender roles early on - But like I said if I child is told that doing something is wrong they're not going to do it for fear of punishment, many children will be told they can't play with toys associated with the opposite sex making it even less likely the transgender feelings are due to upbringing. And as you're cis yourself it's not really your place; trans people know it better and if pretty much all trans people are saying they've always felt like that: they didn't choose and so on then it's 99% likely to be true.

It is true to say many children do go through phases where they feel like the opposite sex, many do change there mind but those who don't aren't ever and that's not got anything to do with how they were raised, you'd find trans people come from all walks of life - For the way they were raised to have a factor you'd have to assume all these parents did the same thing which caused it to occur, something extremely unlikely to be true.
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Old March 20th, 2012 (11:19 AM).
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
Ah you are right, I did overlook what the variants on sex chromosomes should be classified as - generally though the sex (which is interchangeable with gender in many aspects of our life - would a trans person not answer Gender: and Sex: the same on a questionnaire?) put on the birth certificate is that which they most physically resemble when born. If they are not distinguishable often the parents actually decide on which sex they think would work best and surgery starts from an early age.
Well, for almost any form you'd need to fill out no one would have any need to know what your physical/biological/genetic sex is. They want to know your gender and, really, they don't have any right to know more.

As for children born with "ambiguous" genitalia, what right do parents have to choose surgery for them for something non-health related like that?

Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
To be honest... I would put a child aged 4, thinking they belonged at the opposite sex, down to their upbringing. However I wouldn't worry about the feeling of 'not being themselves' so much. I think that putting a label on identity at such a young age is bad for children - I understand it's different to a child 'coming out' at such a young age, but it's similar in the idea that it's a life changing decision or statement. I would imagine it would be hard for a child to say they changed their mind once they, or someone else, 'diagnosed' them.
Kids generally won't start any kind of physical changes until they're getting closer to puberty, as far as I know. A four-year-old is going to have plenty of time to rethink their feelings and I'm pretty sure they won't change their minds if it's just "upbringing" making them say they are a boy or girl.

I can't help but feel there is some kind of double standard infiltrating what you're saying when you propose intersex newborns should have surgery while young kids who say they want to have surgery (okay, that's not what they say, but the more they learn the more likely it is that some of them will say it) should wait until they're adults. I don't mean to accuse you of this, but that's how it comes off to me.
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Old March 20th, 2012 (11:42 AM).
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Quote originally posted by ~Kawaii~:
[FONT="Calibri"]
It takes years for a child to be diagnosed, a child of that age will never be diagnosed as such. As children it is much easier to change our minds and say no things, it's only as we grow we are taught not to say no to everything. Like I said before, I don't think it's even remotely feasible to claim that a child thinking that at such a young age is due to upbringing.

I'll have a look when I have time for those studies, and let you know if I can get them. Personally I don't feel that we should be teaching children such strict gender roles early on - But like I said if I child is told that doing something is wrong they're not going to do it for fear of punishment, many children will be told they can't play with toys associated with the opposite sex making it even less likely the transgender feelings are due to upbringing. And as you're cis yourself it's not really your place; trans people know it better and if pretty much all trans people are saying they've always felt like that: they didn't choose and so on then it's 99% likely to be true.

It is true to say many children do go through phases where they feel like the opposite sex, many do change there mind but those who don't aren't ever and that's not got anything to do with how they were raised, you'd find trans people come from all walks of life - For the way they were raised to have a factor you'd have to assume all these parents did the same thing which caused it to occur, something extremely unlikely to be true.
[/COLOR]
Thanks I'd really appreciate anything you find One thing we haven't really mentioned - what about when the parents find out? Before seeing documentaries I often thought the response would be ok->bad, however I have seen and heard of parents who actually embrace such change when their (young) child has come to this conclusion. That's what I meant by it being a hard thing to un-say for a child, especially if the parent has undergone so much effort to facilitate the change.

I know that as someone who is comfortable with my gender I'm not in a place of knowing to dictate what they feel and how long they have felt it for, but I can't help but relate it to an insecurity - some people get surgery, or change themselves, to overcome other insecurities, whereas other people can just work through it.

Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Well, for almost any form you'd need to fill out no one would have any need to know what your physical/biological/genetic sex is. They want to know your gender and, really, they don't have any right to know more.

As for children born with "ambiguous" genitalia, what right do parents have to choose surgery for them for something non-health related like that?

Kids generally won't start any kind of physical changes until they're getting closer to puberty, as far as I know. A four-year-old is going to have plenty of time to rethink their feelings and I'm pretty sure they won't change their minds if it's just "upbringing" making them say they are a boy or girl.

I can't help but feel there is some kind of double standard infiltrating what you're saying when you propose intersex newborns should have surgery while young kids who say they want to have surgery (okay, that's not what they say, but the more they learn the more likely it is that some of them will say it) should wait until they're adults. I don't mean to accuse you of this, but that's how it comes off to me.
I'm fairly certain sex is important in psychology and medical surveys and forms, since (arguably) sex defines your physical composition and hence hormones, to some degree personality, etc. Sex is also an important factor in disease, just because you feel like the other gender doesn't mean your immune system works the same.

Whereas I'm sure some children don't change their minds, children develop a lot emotionally and socially around puberty, which could have an impact on their decision.

Hm, I do see your point - however I think they are two separate things:
  • a parent making a decision for a young child, probably trying to save the child later confusion, bullying, etc. By giving the child a sex.
  • a child making a decision for themselves, when they may not fully recognize the repercussions in changing their identity.

A child can seem serious about something, but at the end of a day they are a child and still learning about themselves and life. People develop over time, and whilst they certainly stopped developing socially by the age of 16 or 18, I would say they are in a better position of understanding themselves and what they would like for the future.
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Old March 20th, 2012 (12:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
I'm fairly certain sex is important in psychology and medical surveys and forms, since (arguably) sex defines your physical composition and hence hormones, to some degree personality, etc. Sex is also an important factor in disease, just because you feel like the other gender doesn't mean your immune system works the same.

Whereas I'm sure some children don't change their minds, children develop a lot emotionally and socially around puberty, which could have an impact on their decision.

Hm, I do see your point - however I think they are two separate things:
  • a parent making a decision for a young child, probably trying to save the child later confusion, bullying, etc. By giving the child a sex.
  • a child making a decision for themselves, when they may not fully recognize the repercussions in changing their identity.

A child can seem serious about something, but at the end of a day they are a child and still learning about themselves and life. People develop over time, and whilst they certainly stopped developing socially by the age of 16 or 18, I would say they are in a better position of understanding themselves and what they would like for the future.
Certain medical people should probably know, yes, but I was thinking about stuff like college applications or whatnot. Doctors and the like have to keep things confidential, but other people don't have to.

Yes, people continue to develop mentally and emotionally through puberty, but to say that they must wait until them seems unfair (and terribly problematic for kids who start togo through puberty). One's identity is something that other people shouldn't decide for you. Like was said earlier, kids aren't likely to go all the way through the decision to have hormones and surgery unless they are entirely sure. These are pretty expensive and invasive for something that is not strictly speaking life-threatening so that's why there is a lot of talking with doctors before these more permanent changes get done. Really, most kids will probably just change their hair, clothes, name, and other things they can always change back in the early stages, and they will still (ideally) be talking with professionals. Their parents, too. So I think that these kids will definitely have a greater understanding of the repercussions of opening identifying with their gender.
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Old March 21st, 2012 (08:49 AM).
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Welcome, JB! I'll add your name to the list now - tell us a bit about yourself! Are you gay, bi, trans, supporter, other?
Sorry about the lack of response, I've been busy with that horrid thing known as college. Anyways, I'm a lesbian. I'm out to my friends and my mom, dad and younger sister, but not to the rest of my family.
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Old March 21st, 2012 (07:21 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
As to the brain differences and things, do you know of any papers that say this? I study biology at University so we have quite large databases to search, but all I can find are studies that actually say the complete opposite - that gender dysphoria has no physical signs, and can only be diagnosed through what the person says (from a paper in 2009). I do doubt that brain structure is actually affected - unless it's the cause of hormone fluctuation that people often refer to as causing men to be gay (Although that is yet to be proved as well).
I think you'll find a post I made in another thread a while back interesting, I linked some studies for the exact same reason, in a thread about a 7 year old that's a boy that identifies as a girl.

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?p=7008244#post7008244

Quote originally posted by SwiftSign:
Thanks I'd really appreciate anything you find :) One thing we haven't really mentioned - what about when the parents find out? Before seeing documentaries I often thought the response would be ok->bad, however I have seen and heard of parents who actually embrace such change when their (young) child has come to this conclusion. That's what I meant by it being a hard thing to un-say for a child, especially if the parent has undergone so much effort to facilitate the change.
As far as this, I don't think there's anywhere where a young child says "I feel like a <opposite sex>!" and the parent says "Okay, let's go get you surgery then! You said it once, that's irrevocable!" There are professionals whose job is to diagnose this kind of thing based on the individual, and then the child themselves has the ability to choose the right course of action. And tbh, I'd much prefer it this way than the other way around. I'm not sure of the positives of wishing closed-minded parents that will reject a child for having a different gender identity than their sex onto said child.

Progressive parents still have that bond of wanting what's best for their child, and I'm sure they think beyond "4 year old boy says he feels like a girl, let's go get her surgery now" to the possibility that it's a phase or a meaningless wish. However, if the child continually reiterates this in a way that identifies with a trans attitude, then it's reasonable to believe what the child is saying.
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