Competitive Battling Chat

[Dark Azelf]

Originally Posted by Drakow

I assume you want it smaller so that it's easier on the eyes. Why not put the detailed information in spoilers for people who want to look at that stuff and keep the main facts in the layout you suggested.

Well just so its not so much hassle to write all of that. It took me an insane amount of time to go into great detail on each set of every Poke so in the end i was like "screw this :/" lol.

[Drakow]

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Well just so its not so much hassle to write all of that. It took me an insane amount of time to go into great detail on each set of every Poke so in the end i was like "screw this :/" lol.

Haha yeah I understand that.

"Minimum effort, maximum profit"

[Ooka]

Hey guys, WeavileWinz from PO is doing something pretty cool, creating a tier called NEU (I assume it means Never Ever Used), it basically consists of DP NU Pokes, which is awesome. It's pretty fun, worth checking out, at least. There's a channel on the PO server for it and stuff. I enjoy getting to pwn with Leafeon again, and Water Spout Wailord is fun too.

[AlexOzzyCake]

Originally Posted by Ooka

Hey guys, WeavileWinz from PO is doing something pretty cool, creating a tier called NEU (I assume it means Never Ever Used), it basically consists of DP NU Pokes, which is awesome. It's pretty fun, worth checking out, at least. There's a channel on the PO server for it and stuff. I enjoy getting to pwn with Leafeon again, and Water Spout Wailord is fun too.

Hmm, is there a list of Pokemon that qualify? :o

[Ooka]

Spoiler:

Muk
Relicanth
Leafeon
Luxray
Throh
Ampharos
Simisear
Raichu
Skuntank
Carracosta
Banette
Marowak
Shedinja
Walrein
Persian
Bastiodon
Purugly
Grumpig
Rampardos
Emolga
Mr. Mime
Volbeat
Zebstrika
Serperior
Regigigas
Masquerain
Zangoose
Dunsparce
Stunfisk
Garbodor
Octillery
Wailord
Shuckle
Camerupt
Bibarel
Tropius
Kingler
Articuno
Mantine
Golduck
Gothitelle
Pelipper
Gigalith
Vanilluxe
Cacturne
Mightyena
Electrode
Lopunny
Seismitoad
Swanna
Slacking
Shiftry
Mawile
Beheeyem
Raticate
Seaking
Heatmor
Parasect
Mothim
Glalie
Magcargo
Linoone
Pidgeot
Chimecho
Lunatone
Fearow
Solrock
Kecleon
Simisage
Victreebell
Granbull
Basculin
Furret
Ledian
Vespiquen
Girafarig
Whiscash
Noctowl
Beartic
Seviper
Swalot
Chatot
Swoobat
Bellossom
Maractus
Farfetch'd
Ariados
Sudowoodo
Exploud
Delibird
Carnivine
Beedrill
Leavanny
Wormadam-G
Unfezant
Stantler
Sunflora
Delcatty
Corsola
Illumise
Leipard
Dewgong
Plusle
Dustox
Lumineon
Wigglytuff
Pachirisu
Minun
Wormadam-S
Spinda
Castform
Beautifly
Kricketune
Watchog
Cherrim
Unown
Phione
Delibird

Cutoff at 3%

Some things in that list are OP though, like Zangoose and heavy BP so we've decided not to include them.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Ooka

Just use a whole team with Battle Armor + a Ghost and Ground type. Critical Hits and Paralyze = 90% of hax imo. (Last 10% is like, flinches, which aren't annoying without the paralyze)

Being hax-free doesn't mean you'll be successful competitively, lol.

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Hey yo, so im gonna do my threat list again in between work, college and smashing the gym. I want it smaller and minimize wording. Wolf gave me a few ideas where i could do sets and just link to smogon for the explanations and just list counters rather than explaining them since those took up so much space it was unreal.

...

Basically since this is for you guys, what do you want to see done with how i format it and what do you want included ? (I dont want to make anything massively wordy again as that was part of the reason that killed me wanting to do it last time lol)

So what exactly is this going to look like? Link to competitive sets and then list some counters? I guess I'm having trouble figuring out why you should spend your time doing this when it seems to me that Smogon already has all that jazz. If you want to by all means go ahead, but I feel like it'd just be a wasted effort unless there are significant differences from Smogon. :(

Originally Posted by Ooka

Hey guys, WeavileWinz from PO is doing something pretty cool, creating a tier called NEU (I assume it means Never Ever Used), it basically consists of DP NU Pokes, which is awesome. It's pretty fun, worth checking out, at least. There's a channel on the PO server for it and stuff. I enjoy getting to pwn with Leafeon again, and Water Spout Wailord is fun too.

I'm not a huge fan of this, but that's probably just because I favor the Smogon tiers anyway. It seems too unofficial for me to be particularly interested (although I want our hiker meta back ;-;), I guess. And unofficial generally means run poorly which also means that it's probably not going to last very long, imo.

[Impo]

I love the sound of NEU, I can pull out my old NU team from DPPt

[Dark Azelf]

Originally Posted by Vrai

So what exactly is this going to look like? Link to competitive sets and then list some counters? I guess I'm having trouble figuring out why you should spend your time doing this when it seems to me that Smogon already has all that jazz. If you want to by all means go ahead, but I feel like it'd just be a wasted effort unless there are significant differences from Smogon.

Hence why i asked for feedback on what you guys want to see in it. I went into more detail on last time especially on counters partially because of that, but i ended up being TL;DR. Truth be told i want it to be different from smogon too.

I guess i could add in how to eliminate counters as in lures. Smogon dont really have those. They just have "Oh Quagsire is a good partner to Zard as it resists electric and rock whilst zard resists grass !!!! weee" lol.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Hence why i asked for feedback on what you guys want to see in it. I went into more detail on last time especially on counters partially because of that, but i ended up being TL;DR. Truth be told i want it to be different from smogon too.

I guess i could add in how to eliminate counters as in lures. Smogon dont really have those. They just have "Oh Quagsire is a good partner to Zard as it resists electric and rock whilst zard resists grass !!!! weee" lol.

Yeah, I think making it different than Smogon would definitely be best if you were going to go for it. I think the best thing you could do is talk about partners in general, what works best off of each other, lures, idk just some teambuilding advice in general when using x mon. That's probably the best you'll get in general without repeating what Smogon says.

[Ooka]

Originally Posted by Vrai

Being hax-free doesn't mean you'll be successful competitively, lol.

Did I imply that or something? :/

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Ooka

Did I imply that or something? :/

Yes. I don't know what else you could've meant. :<

In other news, have any of you been paying attention to CAP? It's pretty cool stuff.

[PlatinumDude]

Originally Posted by Vrai

Yes. I don't know what else you could've meant. :<

In other news, have any of you been paying attention to CAP? It's pretty cool stuff.

I've red about it a few times, yes, but I don't take part in its metagame.

Speaking of CAP, how well do you think the Gen IV CAPs will do in Gen V?

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by PlatinumDude

I've red about it a few times, yes, but I don't take part in its metagame.

Speaking of CAP, how well do you think the Gen IV CAPs will do in Gen V?

I haven't played either. I just like to follow along and watch their discussions because honestly a lot of things can be learned even watching them discuss things. The last CAP was about momentum and it was pretty cool watching it go through development and finding out new things about how momentum works and things like that. My favorite part about CAP is that they all have a purpose, with questions to fill and new things to learn about the game.

[Forever]

Why are the analyses of the Pokemon so much longer than the normal aka real Pokemon analyses (lol Chrome says the word I want to say isn't real and I feel like I'm using that in the wrong tense) o_O Well I only clicked one Pokemon but I assume that's the standard length, that's crazy. :x It's a kinda nice idea to build a whole new metagame without the help of Gamefreak's Pokemon creation, though.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Forever

Why are the analyses of the Pokemon so much longer than the normal aka real Pokemon analyses (lol Chrome says the word I want to say isn't real and I feel like I'm using that in the wrong tense) o_O Well I only clicked one Pokemon but I assume that's the standard length, that's crazy. :x It's a kinda nice idea to build a whole new metagame without the help of Gamefreak's Pokemon creation, though.

wat

Do you mean this? Because I have no idea what you meant.

[Forever]

YES. Those. Clearly what I said was quite logical and would be anybody's first assumption! But yeah, those things are long, lol.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Forever

YES. Those. Clearly what I said was quite logical and would be anybody's first assumption! But yeah, those things are long, lol.

Well all of them are long. :( Those in particular might be longer because they deal with mons a lot of people are unfamiliar with, requiring more explaining.

[Forever]

Okay just going to like bring up something I saw at Smogon that's really annoying me (in relation to making Deoxys-S uber).

I really really don't think it's broken, I ran a purely offensive one as a lead and with its defensive stats it usually got 2HKO'd really easy, and just killed if Tar came along, yeah, superpower could technically kill it BUT if you've already superpowered Heatran or something, then yeaah, Tar wins (also more common than Deoxys-S in usage so people are likely to have that!). Basically, Deoxys-S got a few kills but as soon as it faced priority and with LO it didn't really stand a chance, lol. As for the screens / hazards, neither really bother me (well even in general), even though my team is offensive, I still manage to bide time until screens go away (IDK HOW), and with Deoxys-S it's killed by a lot of common Pokemon (Scizor say hi), whereas for hazards it's just another Forretress/Skarm etc. tbh Sableye (which is apparently more common) could also render Deoxys-S useless, so...

Idkkkkkkkk I think there's a lot of others that can be considered more broken than Deoxys-S. :(

[Twilight Sky]

I'm pretty neutral if Deoxys-S does turn out to be banned from OU. It isn't too terribly hard to kill, but one thing one has to remember when facing the Pokemon is that you have no idea what in the hell it's going to do. The problem with Deoxys-S, to me, lies just within that. Of course it isn't hard to kill, but it's annoying as hell, and offensive Deoxys-S is a lot more threatening than most people make it out to be. Especially with LO, it can wreck a lot of pokes in a team.

I used to be fairly stubborn about defending Deoxys-S in it's rightful OU tier, but after laddering and facing like a million of those damn things myself, I think it's time to just about put that thing to rest in maybe the Uber tier, who knows. I doubt OU would die off without deoxys-s(it hasn't when excadrill and thundurus was, so who's to say it would if deoxys would be banned, too?)

So I'm indifferent either way. If it gets banned, great! If it stays, great! It's just annoying to deal with, overall.

it usually got 2HKO'd really easy, and just killed if Tar came along, yeah, superpower could technically kill it BUT if you've already superpowered Heatran or something, then yeaah, Tar wins

Superpower still kills tyranitar no matter what situation it's in. Except maybe if it's scarftar, but I think deo-s outruns even that.

Basically, Deoxys-S got a few kills but as soon as it faced priority and with LO it didn't really stand a chance, lol.

Thats because it kinda wouldn't matter as by the time it dies, it would have already done most of its job if not all.

and with Deoxys-S it's killed by a lot of common Pokemon (Scizor say hi)

Say hi to Deoxys-S' fire punch(yes, they DO exist).

Yes, it can have fire punch. With spikes/rocks damage, I believe fire punch kinda says bye-bye to scizor.

[Forever]

Oh right, the Deoxys-S that go without Superpower are when Tar comes in handy (lool knew I was forgetting something).

You could say the same about other Pokemon that set up Spikes / SR, but they're not necessarily broken, and with their defenses, in some cases don't really need the speed to survive/set-up the hazards, because yeah, those too, after that purpose are useless.

Yeah that'd be pretty uncommon, though. I find Psycho Boost / hazards / taunt, or Superpower / hazards / taunt, or Superpower / Psychic / Ice beam / Tbolt more common (ice beam at least).

Oh, and on another note, Starmie can also learn boltbeam, a psychic attack and a water type attack, it also outspeeds a lot of Pokemon, can hurt the opponents a lot, so on the offensive front, Deoxys-S isn't much different to Starmie. While on hazards, it's not really different from the standard hazards setter-uppers (not even a word idc), etc.

[Vrai]

Originally Posted by Forever

Oh right, the Deoxys-S that go without Superpower are when Tar comes in handy (lool knew I was forgetting something).

You could say the same about other Pokemon that set up Spikes / SR, but they're not necessarily broken, and with their defenses, in some cases don't really need the speed to survive/set-up the hazards, because yeah, those too, after that purpose are useless.

Yeah that'd be pretty uncommon, though. I find Psycho Boost / hazards / taunt, or Superpower / hazards / taunt, or Superpower / Psychic / Ice beam / Tbolt more common (ice beam at least).

Oh, and on another note, Starmie can also learn boltbeam, a psychic attack and a water type attack, it also outspeeds a lot of Pokemon, can hurt the opponents a lot, so on the offensive front, Deoxys-S isn't much different to Starmie. While on hazards, it's not really different from the standard hazards setter-uppers (not even a word idc), etc.

The argument is not that Deoxys-S is broken at any one of its roles (in which case, yes, you are correct - Deoxys-S is offensively inferior to, say, Starmie) but rather its versatility. You don't know what's coming out of Deoxys-S. Bring in Tyranitar expecting a Spikes set? Have fun eating a LO Superpower. Try Forretress to spin away hazards for a Deo-S leading for a Heavy Offense team? Have fun eating a Fire-type attack and having your best response to Haxorus nullified, essentially.

It's impossible to tell what Deoxys-S is going to throw at you so you can't even effectively respond until it has already done its job.

[Ooka]

Yeah, pretty much the only way to effectively counter it is Jirachi in Rain, in which case you can still get set up on entirely with Hazards or Screens, opening you up for a sweep. It's entirely unpredictable, and imo it should move to ubers.

[Dark Azelf]

Originally Posted by Ooka

Yeah, pretty much the only way to effectively counter it is Jirachi in Rain, in which case you can still get set up on entirely with Hazards or Screens, opening you up for a sweep. It's entirely unpredictable, and imo it should move to ubers.

Ive been saying this for monthssss lol.

[Karpman]

Guys. Deoxys-S isn't broken because it has "no counters", the LO Sets have plenty of counters, due to having moveslot syndrome, and once you manage to scout its set, you can counter it. The most broken aspect of Deo-S is its support aspect, where you can't afford to scout it because it will lay Hazards/Screens while you haphazardly switch around. The fact that it won't defer from its job unless it sees a Pokemon which it can significantly damage is what makes it so annoying, and what causes players to be extremely cautious when sending in their spinner, lest it be OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fire/Thunderbolt/Psycho Boost, etc.

I've further outlined what makes this monster such a threat to the OU Tier in my nomination at Smogon.

Deoxys-S is such a potent threat in the current metagame, because it causes you to fight an uphill battle for the majority of the match, and it does this in a number of ways, the first of which is with entry hazards. While there are other "fast spikers", Deoxys-S is the bulkiest, the only one with Stealth Rock and the most threatening to spinners. Deoxys's bulk is actually quite underrated, as shown by this set and the fact that it's able to manage getting up entry hazards on Pokemon that "hard counter its offensive sets", such as Specially Defensive Jirachi, which is only doing 30.92% - 36.84% with Iron Head and 22.04% - 25.99% with Body Slam, to the standard 252 HP/252 Spe Support set.

Deoxys-S is not only a great layer of hazards because of its amazing speed tier, but the fact that it has the potential to be threatening to any spinner. It might seem like a good idea to send in your Forretress to Spin away its hazards before taking it down with Gyro Ball, but if you're aware of the many possible attacks this Pokemon can carry, then you're obviously going to hesitate. What if it has Hidden Power Fire/Fire Punch? Then you're Forretress loses a huge chunk of its health, and your best means of beating the Haxorus on your opponent's team is now null and void, the same scenario goes for Tentacruel and Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost, as well as Starmie fearing Thunderbolt. This is purely theoretical, of course, but it's actually a somewhat common scenario, regardless of which Rapid Spinner you have and which threat it counters. Deoxys-S has established itself as a viable user of such a vast array of attacks, that Rapid Spinners feel threatened just switching in, and, through its imposing presence and high Speed, Deoxys-S is able to get Entry Hazards up with ease, making it very hard for a more defensive team to constantly take the brutal attacks of the opponent's remaining sweepers until they can find a time in which their Rapid Spinner can absolve the field of Entry Hazards. The worst part is that there is absolutely no way to tell what Deoxys-S has, other than playing into its hand by trying to scout it while it sets up Hazards/Screens on you and I think Faladran's replay shows this better than words could, so if you send in your Tentacruel, you're essentially taking a stab in the dark; any Pokemon that forces you to do this in order to 'shut them down' is unhealthy for the metagame.

Next up, we have the Screens set, much like the Entry Hazards set, Deoxys-S can get this up relatively easily and while Screens have always been a somewhat large part of the competitive metagame, Deoxys-S isn't set up bait like other Screen Users such as Bronzong, Cresselia, etc and can't be Taunted like the aforementioned Pokemon, unless you're using something like Whimsicott.

The Offensive LO sets are only useful for beating primarily offensive teams, and even then, its attacks aren't that strong and many Pokemon can shake them off, kd24 is spot on in saying that the support sets are the most threatening because they put you at an immediate disadvantage and stopping them from doing their job is no easy task.

I''m going to echo the definition of an Uber Support Pokemon, because I believe it characterizes Deoxys-S perfectly and illustrates why it is detrimental to the current metagame.

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

This sounds quite familiar. Deoxys-S's niche is consistently setting up situations that facilitate sweeping, as illustrated by both of its support sets. You can't deny that Pokemon like Choice Band Haxorus love the 37.5% of residual that the Ferrothorn that was supposed to counter it, just took from the 4 layers of hazards that Deoxys-S set up at the beginning of the battle. To reiterate, Deoxys-S can do this consistently because it has the ability to pose a threat to the majority of the spinners in the OU Metagame and the fact that it's Screens can't be taunted away, and Brick Break is hardly used for the purpose of smashing screens [not to mention many of the common users of Brick Break such as Scizor are beaten by Deoxys-S if they happen to carry the appropriate attack, in this case it being Fire Punch/Hidden Power Fire].

Finally, while one can argue that Deoxys-S has moveslot syndrome, you can't mess around and scout for its moveset, because it could be setting Spikes all over your field while you do so, unlike the Hidden Power Fire Rotom-W whose waters you can test by sending in a Ferrothorn and then quickly switching it out for something like Latios, because in the process, you aren't put at any kind of disadvantage.

In conclusion, I think Deoxys-S's sheer versatility, threatening presence and unmatched ability to facilitate the sweeping of its team members add up to it a Pokemon that is effectively worthy of a ban from the OU Tier.

[Forever]

Okay let's compare its sets to one other in general, aka random example (yes I know they're completely different, this is an example of sets that you really don't know til you come in) -

Deoxys-S: 3.
Dragonite: 8. (Plus multiscale and DD or straight out attacking, oh yes, another unpredictable Pokemon!)

And tbh, why would you send out a spinner on Deoxys-S anyway? Just use something that'd be neutral to its sets to kill it, aka something with levitate and not weak to boltbeam etc and then send in a spinner once it's gone.

I personally don't use a spinner and I've never had an issue with any of Deoxys-S sets so meh. I just think that the whole it being unpredictable thing shouldn't really stand ground because I can think of a lot of other unpredictable Pokemon that aren't being brought up for this but can potentially hurt you badly.

But yeah, if you guys really think it's an issue, then hopefully for you guys it's banned but I've honestly got nothing against it, lol, and I still think it's not hard to get rid of. :(