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  #101    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:45 AM
Naya Rivera's Avatar
Naya Rivera
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Mamoswine is the best, I don't see why it would be underrated, I understand it's power and I'm wary when fighting them! D:

I used Xatu a couple of times, he never really shone for me, Espeon took the spotlight. Although he has recovery in roost he still can be smashed by a strong attack, as can Espeon but Xatu is just weaker. /has a hate for Xatu.

Speaking of underrated Pokemon; Zebstrika caught my attention in UU, he's quite good, with a base 116 Speed he can outspeed a lot of things, what outspeeds him? :| With a not-to-shabby base 100 attack he can take down a few as well, and throw Thunder Waves around.
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  #102    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:23 AM
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Even with nice optimization, Zebstrika isn't a /fantastic/ Pokemon, not even in RU, since eviolite Gligar, Hippopotas, etc wall it to hell and back. I might get back into RU, depending on how successfully I am on the OU Ladder, just to reward myself for all the stressful laddering. I'm really looking forward to using Throh, it looks like it will be the Conkeldurr of RU, and it even has a much better SpDef stat.
  #103    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
Mamoswine is the best, I don't see why it would be underrated, I understand it's power and I'm wary when fighting them! D:

I used Xatu a couple of times, he never really shone for me, Espeon took the spotlight. Although he has recovery in roost he still can be smashed by a strong attack, as can Espeon but Xatu is just weaker. /has a hate for Xatu.

Speaking of underrated Pokemon; Zebstrika caught my attention in UU, he's quite good, with a base 116 Speed he can outspeed a lot of things, what outspeeds him? :| With a not-to-shabby base 100 attack he can take down a few as well, and throw Thunder Waves around.
Mamoswine is UU and stuff. People don't use it, even though they totally should. :(

Zebstrika... well, I haven't done anything with him, but he just seems too frail in any tier that it's in to get things done... plus its main STAB has a nice recoil attached and yeah idek. I just don't really wonder about why it's so ineffective - it just kinda -is-. :(

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  #104    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:30 AM
Naya Rivera's Avatar
Naya Rivera
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I agree that Zebstrika isn't the best, but it can do a good job of fighting. I mean sure Gligar and Hippo laugh at it, but Zebstrika can still kill annoying things that get in the way.

I haven't played anything below UU, isn't RU - Rarely used? Isn't that just the NU of this generation? D:

Or is it the borderline of NU - UU because y'know Never =/= Rarely, contradiction ftw
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  #105    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
I agree that Zebstrika isn't the best, but it can do a good job of fighting. I mean sure Gligar and Hippo laugh at it, but Zebstrika can still kill annoying things that get in the way.

I haven't played anything below UU, isn't RU - Rarely used? Isn't that just the NU of this generation? D:

Or is it the borderline of NU - UU because y'know Never =/= Rarely, contradiction ftw
Well, fast things are cool like that. I s'pose I'd imagine it like a Starmie, kinda, but with less utility and good typing and power and coverage and recovery and defensive prowess (sadly it's true). Soooo in that sense it's not really like Starmie at all. :((((

Also, it goes Ubers - OU - UU - RU - NU. It's not like a banlist for NU, it's an entirely new tier. If they didn't create it, there'd be some 400 Pokemon in NU. :x
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  #106    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 01:57 PM
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Hello everyone!
After a really long time of inactivity I'm back, yay! Wow, metagame sure has changed, a new tier, that's great. I'm very rusty right now, but I can't wait to start battling and creating teams again :D
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  #107    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 03:10 PM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omicron View Post
Hello everyone!
After a really long time of inactivity I'm back, yay! Wow, metagame sure has changed, a new tier, that's great. I'm very rusty right now, but I can't wait to start battling and creating teams again :D
Welcome back Omicron! It's nice to see you back. :)

Also, has anyone seen any really cool things or anything on the ladder? Or, I guess, come up with some cool ideas? This metagame is definitely a great place to try ideas, because really anything can flourish if you play it well enough and create a team to support it (as Oppo proved with his tailwind stuff).

I've been playing with a SubPass Mienshao >> Nasty Plot Celebi combination lately. I mean, it's not perfect (and I stole SubPass Mienshao from Oppo) but things that naturally come in on Mienshao like Gliscor and Jellicent just get set up on from Celebi, and if Celebi has its sub up it can nail Lati@s with a well-timed Shadow Ball. Plus Mienshao scares off Tyranitar who seems to enjoy coming in on Celebi (though a +2 Giga Drain hurts like hell for it) and gets a free SubPass somewhere else. I mean it's not great but it's been successful enough to push me through top 100 on ladder. What have you guys been working with/trying/been successful with/have ideas for etc? XD
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  #108    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM
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I've been using Wobbuffet + SS Cloyster for some clean, straight sweeps. I've been pairing this duo with Drizzle Politoed so Hydro Pump destroys even SpD Jirachi in the rain after Spikes damage. Cloyster is a pokemon that cannot really set up without Focus Sash, but doesn't have enough power without Life Orb. Wobbuffet can easily give it a chance to set up and destroys faster Scarf Pokemon like Terrakion and Latios. I've beaten some really good teams with this both in OU and in Ubers (use Kyogre :p) and people need to seriously reconsider Wobba again. For some reason it's not getting use but when use correctly, oh man, things get ripped apart. Shadow Tag is still broken as hell imo, despite the 3 turn nerf to Encore (in game, it's technically four though :/ since PO counts the turn its used as turn 1. FIX!!!!!)

Tyranitar + Tangrowth is another good one. KG proved to me Tangrowth's great physical bulk which is actually higher than that of Skarmory! Tyranitar can Pursuit Latios that love to switch into Tangrowth (Power Whips still hurts like hell though) and can take Heatran on all day if you have Low Kick. It can also get rid of Ferrothorn through Fire Blast. Regenerate also helps Tangrowth recover off SS damage. It's a little Scizor weak, but ehh... nothing a little Gliscor / Skarmory wouldn't fix.
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  #109    
Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:28 PM
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well I've been working with a smash & pass gorebyss holding a white herb. it can take a physical hit decently and after a shell smash it pretty much outspeeds everything with speed EV's and timid nature, it will be able to baton pass to the poke of my choice. i usually pick conkeldurr because it benefits a lot from the speed and attack boost, allowing it to drain punch away and recover some HP.
  #110    
Old July 4th, 2011, 04:06 AM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrrrrrrr
"Overcentralization" is the biggest joke of an argument I've ever heard. Something is popular, therefore it must be too good? If you apply that logic every round, you will end up banning literally everything. Overcentralization isn't even a word. Stop using it like popularity decides what is good.
rest of the above post

What are your guys' thoughts on overcentralization? Is it a legitimate argument to use when considering if something is banned? What is the "defintion" of overcentralization? Are there Pokémon that really overcentralize everything? What's the difference between "overcentralizing" and "used often"? If something is overcentralizing, what does that say about it and the rest of the metagame? Would taking out Pokémon deemed "overcentralizing" completely change the metagame, or is really one or two Pokémon out going to make much of a difference? Should the word "overcentralization" exist?

Just trying to kick some life into a creative discussion. You don't have to answer all of that, but rather discuss your thoughts on overcentralization and use those questions maybe as a backboard - if you don't know what to talk about, look up there and see if you can answer a few of those. I tried to come up with some good ones. ^o^
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  #111    
Old July 4th, 2011, 10:27 AM
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Centralization is caused by most OU Pokemon. I don't know how something can "over-centralize" to be honest. Obviously, if something causes a lot of obvious centralization like Latias did last gen, for instance, it may be an alarm that says that the Pokemon could be broken, but it's not really proof.

Even though (at least on here) I haven't seen the term used much, I've heard a lot of "well Latios/Reuniclus forces you to use Scizor or Sp. Def. Jirachi or Tyranitar" or something like that as proof that Latios/Reuniclus is broken. I don't really agree with this approach, personally. In gen 4, Heracross and Lucario (which of course turned into just Lucario) "made" a lot of people use Gliscor. In my view, something is broken not when it causes a lot of centralization but when even with the centralization it still dominates. But eh, tier stuff really is a toughie.
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  #112    
Old July 4th, 2011, 11:08 AM
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.Aero
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Well, jrr[insert more r's here] has a different definition of overcentralization than I do. I don't think of overcentralization as usage, I think of it as something like Reuniclus. I know Anti hates this argument (probably) because it's what I use to argue that Reuniclus is broken, but it's so damn annoying when you're forced to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor to beat it (Tar doesn't work because Reuniclus survives Crunch and OHKO's back with Focus Blast). Note the fact that they are "SpD" version. They're so ridiculously specialized that it makes their other sets completely inferior because you can either run a regular hard hitting SD Scizor, but lose to things like Reuniclus and Latios, or you can run the SpD version just to beat them. :P

An overcentralized pokemon, in my eyes, is something with decently high usage and causes a player to sacrifice a slot of their team to specifically beat said pokemon with a specialized "counter set". The fact that Reuniclus has two things that can solidly beat it scares me like no other, and I know in a battle with Anti the other day, he had to sack 4 mons just to wear of Trick Room and KO him (then again, he did lose his SpD Jirachi early on due to hax, but regardless...you had decided not to run SpD Rachi or Scizor).

I won't discuss this topic further though...It seems I've had this discussion too many times and it's basically a political debate. xD
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  #113    
Old July 4th, 2011, 02:18 PM
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My definition would be somewhere along the lines of "forces the vast majority of the metagame to adapt", but then again that applies to everything. I don't believe in overcentralization, because if I did I wouldn't believe in a metagame. Things are good. Some Pokemon aren't used simply because others exist. See: Starmie. What would you do if you weren't forced to run HP Fire because of Ferrothorn? Starmie could spin on everything. It's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier (3rd fastest, iirc). It'd smash things on a Drizzle team (imagine: dual-STAB Hydro Pump + Thunder... actually, it still does, even when Ferro is there lol). Worst comes to worst Starmie is a much better Pokemon without Ferrothorn than with it - does that make Ferrothorn "overcentralized"? I don't think so. I think Ferrothorn makes the metagame adapt to it, like literally every other Pokemon. I think that "centralization" is what makes a metagame a metagame - if something's used a lot because it's good, other things will adapt and beat it. You can't use the basis of a metagame as the reason why something is broken in it. :(

@Aero: Debates and discussion is what this thread is for, isn't it?
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  #114    
Old July 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM
.Aero's Avatar
.Aero
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Well yeah, I know it's for debates, but I dislike this particular debate...normally I agree with Anti...xD But I don't this time, and his argument skills are top notch, so I try to avoid it with him.

I still stick by my idea that overcentralization is grounds for banning. Honestly, you all can't think that Reuniclus is good to keep around. :[ I've swept teams with him and he's just there to beat mach puncher that would thrash my Terrakion. Heck, he sweeps more teams that my Terrakion, who I built the team around. >.<
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  #115    
Old July 4th, 2011, 08:37 PM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .Aero View Post
Well yeah, I know it's for debates, but I dislike this particular debate...normally I agree with Anti...xD But I don't this time, and his argument skills are top notch, so I try to avoid it with him.

I still stick by my idea that overcentralization is grounds for banning. Honestly, you all can't think that Reuniclus is good to keep around. :[ I've swept teams with him and he's just there to beat mach puncher that would thrash my Terrakion. Heck, he sweeps more teams that my Terrakion, who I built the team around. >.<
Oh you, don't be intimidated. Intimidation got us nowhere last time - and besides, there's no reason not to. You could get better at arguing your case too!

Ehh, I think that you're simply using the incorrect terminology in my book. Something causing the metagame to work around it is not cause for banning imo because literally every Pokemon does that. Every Pokemon "causes" the meta to change. Maybe to different degrees, but they all adapt. And even if you say "well the ones that change it the most are broken" then we will continually ban everything under that reason until we're left with CB Delibird and Specs Torkoal... which would be an interesting metagame. @@ I dunno, it's the slippery slope argument, but you really can't ban something just because you call it "overcentralizing", because no matter what is at the top, it's going to be "overcentralizing". That's my thoughts, anyway. :(

You can ban something because it breaks those characteristics Smogon sets, but tbh "overcentralization" is not an argument to ban anything in my eyes unless someone can show me why it should be. :(
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  #116    
Old July 7th, 2011, 07:58 AM
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Ookay how is this for a troll team idea in UU?

Firstly, Linoone exists, and only requires one turn of set up. It is also frail as hell.
Wobbuffet is UU as well. Sense a pattern?
Empoleon and Steelix are the only viable steels.. But Magneton and Dugtrio could fix those.
Froslass with scarf provides Fighting immunity and Spikes, as well as even more ways of crippling walls, such as Chansey and Deo-D etc
Finally Zoroak is UU. Imagine the pressure.

Soooo yeah, any ideas how this could work out? I mean, when I've managed to encore something into what I want and I've gotten rid of the Steels it worked pretty well, but those ghosts still annoy me ;( Almost considering switcheroo aiming mark on the switch, just to hit them with that +6 ES loool
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  #117    
Old July 7th, 2011, 11:27 AM
Vrai
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You could consider CB Azumarill > Dugtrio since Waterfall hits like a truck to Steelix anyway, it lures Empoleon for Magneton, and Aqua Jet mauls most available ghosts iirc unless someone's going to use Eviolite Frillish on you but you have Seed Bomb for that. :)
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  #118    
Old July 7th, 2011, 01:47 PM
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Well, after arriving at a verdict through calculations as well as some research on Oppo's part, we concluded a small debate/investigation on the PO server. After finishing, I realized it would have been an awesome topic for this thread. D: So I'll just post our findings here in order for others to see what we found out:

The Question
I was wondering, we all treat Choice Band/Specs/Scarf as a +1 boost to their respective stat, right? And we know that a +2 simply doubles the stat. But I was wondering, what would happen if you somehow managed to pass a +1 boost on attack to a Choice Banded pokemon. Would the attack stat double? Or would the two 50% bonuses act separately?

The Verdict
Turns out, Choice Band is a separate boost that acts outside of the normal boosts. This means that the stat won't double like a +2, but instead be multiplied by x2.25, making it even more deadly! I only ran one calculation, but Oppo said that on Shoddy it used to act as a x2.25 boost.

I chose CBHAxorus against physically defensive Skarm; here are the results:

252 +2 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 40.12% - 47.31%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 +1 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 44.91% - 52.99%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

As you can see, the Choice Band with a +1 does more damage, although not entirely significant in this case (because of Lefties), but I can imagine it makes a difference on some pokemon if somebody ever decides to pass boosts to Choiced pokemon. The only practical situation I can think of where a boost and choice item could be applied is on something like CBGyara with Moxie or CBKrookodile with Moxie, maybe Mence and Heracross too.

Oppo and I did some testing on the PO server with the same CBHaxorus with +1 and the +2 one. Turns out the calcs match. So...weeee.

I just thought it was interesting is all, and it sort of bugged me for a while and I never thought to ask the question until now. :]
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Last edited by .Aero; July 7th, 2011 at 02:15 PM.
  #119    
Old July 8th, 2011, 03:35 PM
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Yeah, Choice items are a 1.5x modifier to a respective stat, so it's slightly different then a +1. Of course, this doesn't make a big difference but it's still very nice to know.

Also, rain is everywhere in DW ~_~ I'm going back to WiFi
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  #120    
Old July 9th, 2011, 01:15 AM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamehaze94 View Post
Yeah, Choice items are a 1.5x modifier to a respective stat, so it's slightly different then a +1. Of course, this doesn't make a big difference but it's still very nice to know.

Also, rain is everywhere in DW ~_~ I'm going back to WiFi
Is Drizzle + SS not banned in DW? If it isn't there's no wonder rain is everywhere, lol. You get an instant boost in strength, speed, and "everyone else is doing it" - plus there's like no way to stop Drizzle + SS - sure, you can check one of the sweepers, but then another one comes in and finishes off said counter, then proceeds to smash the rest of your team. I dunno why they haven't banned it already. :(

On another random note, CB Gyara has had an... interesting effect on my thrown-together rain team. It 2hkos things like Skarmory for Scizor to come in and sweep later and lures Ferrothorn for Scizor to set up on and does a chunk to Rotom-W, though not as much as I'd like it to. However it does outspeed random bulky versions of Rotom-W which is cute. Plus it lived a random unboosted Jirachi Thunderbolt. \o/
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  #121    
Old July 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM
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Been gone for 3 weeks... someone wanna catch me up to speed on the new tiers and star Pokemon that have come out recently? im out of battling shape lolol
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  #122    
Old July 11th, 2011, 05:18 PM
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I figured I should start contributing to the "overcentralization" stuff.

Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word. If something is used alot, it does not mean it is broken in the slightest bit (Well in Latias's case in Gen 4, it was correct). Also, the Reuniclus arguement also relates how Jirachi is used to also take on Latias, Latios, Gengar, etc. Same thing with Scizor. They both are used to handle a large majority of Pokemon in the current metagame.
  #123    
Old July 13th, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Haven't we had the discussion over overcentralization before? It's such a bad argument, but everyone else already explained it better than me so I'll just say tl;dr go read everyone elses.

Also PO server being down = Sad Red Panda
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  #124    
Old July 13th, 2011, 11:19 AM
Vrai
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lol jake

and yeah, the server being down sucks. it'll be back up soon-ish though i thinkkk... ;-;

only seven more days for reqs woo who wants to help me get them again y/y
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  #125    
Old July 13th, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Urgh ): My day has been so boring without the server! >:(
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