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Competitive Team Help Having trouble with your competitive Pokémon team? Be sure to check here if you need any help on it. Any teams intended for in-game and casual play should be posted in the In-Game Team Help sub-forum.


 
 
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  #1    
Old July 23rd, 2011, 09:22 PM
tente2's Avatar
tente2
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Competitive Generation V OU Rain Team

Intro
Well, first of all, this is my first competitive team ever. Literally. Please don´t be harsh, since I know the team probably has many issues, and there are a few things I don´t understand completely.

Getting to the actual team, it´s an OU Rain team. It´s focused mainly around setting rain up so that my main sweepers get the boosts they both can appreciate.



Team Construction
Let´s get started, shall we?


Obvious start are the Swift Swim sweepers, since the team is centered around them. Armaldo is the Physical Attack, Kingdra is the Special Attack.


Next recruit isn´t a surprise either, since Drizzle makes things so much easier.


But there´s a problem. I´ve been told weather is big this gen, and that spikes and such is still popular. Having Politoed as a lead would be stupid--it would be OHKOed to easily, and then the other player´s setter-upper can get their job done without my Politoed´s interference. So I need a lead--Mienshao comes to mind.


I know it´s stupid to rely only on my current sweepers, because they aren´t able to efficiently cover threats such as Conkeldur. I need an alternate sweeper. Latios doesn´t really benefit from rain, but it has nice stats and a type coverage that covers some of the team´s weaknesses.


Finally, I need a wall that can absorb hits. Jellicent will do excellently.


Everything was dandy until I learned Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned, so I looked for Rain Dancers. Dragonite seemed like the best option. My only issue is that opens a LEGENDARY weakness to Dragon-types, so I need to change that.


This next part is kind of embarrassing. At first I considered Ludicolo, but then I got frustrated looking for better options and considered rebuilding the team from scratch. After my second or third review of the entire list of Pokemon that learn Rain Dance, it hit me in the face: Accelgor. I felt extremely stupid for not realizing it earlier.


But, Accelgor is as fragile as glass and the next option (recommended by dragonomega) made me furious for ever considering Accelegor. Thundurus can pull off everything Accelegor could, but better and more.


And then, some playtesting revealed this team's weaknesses. Mienshao didn't do it's job as a lead right at all, while Thundurus does a great job as a lead, promoting him to one. Armaldo isn't all that great, but Kabutops (recommended by Vrai) may fair better. With Mienshao gone, I decided to invest in my team's defences, with Ferrothorn.


Team´s crap from playtesting so Toxicroak (suggested by Alexial357) Blissey and Dragonite are new recruits.

Type Table (From Marriland):

Spoiler:


The Team


Thunderstorm w/ French Fries

Aries (Thundurus) @ Damp Rock
Prankster
252 Spatk/ 252 Spd/ 6 Atk
Rash
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power Ice

Thundurus, the Rain setter-upper. With prankster, he can pull off both Rain Dance and Nasty Plot excellently, allowing him to sweep with 100% Thunder. He has HP Ice to hurt Ground types and Dragons.

Physical Mop Sweeper

Sagittarius (Toxicroak) @ Life Orb
Dry Skin
252 Atk/ 6 HP/ 252 Spd
Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch (Drain Punch?)
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch

Life Orb and Dry Skin almost balance each other, SD is obvious, SP...is SP, PJ is STAB, DP is healing. *too lazy to use real move names*

Special Broom Sweeper

Virgo (Kingdra) @ Choice Specs
Swift Swim
252 Spatk/ 252 Spd/ 6 Spdef
Modest
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Flash Cannon
- Dragon Pulse

Kingdra is the...waitress.

...the Special Sweeper. *coughcough* Surf is STAB, (I thought Hydro was too risky), Rain Dance is for setting up Rain against Hail teams (Thundurus and Dragonite weak to Ice), Flash Cannon is variation and Draco Pulse is also STAB.


Alternate Cleaning Wipes Sweeper

Capricorn (Dragonite) @ Expert Belt
Multiscale
252 Atk/ 200 Spd/ 58 Spatk
Lonely
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Hurricane

Alternate Sweeper. Again. Mentioned many times.

Rain Dance can be used to bring Rain back in case it runs out and I desperately need it but Thundurus is fainted, Dragon Dance and Dragon Claw allow Dragonite to sweep beautifully, and Hurricane gets 100% in rain so why not.

Wall of Blubber

Gemini (Blissey) @ Leftovers
Serene Grace
6 Def/ 252 HP/ 252 Spdef
Sassy
- Wish
- Calm Mind
- Body Slam
- Thunder

Blissey has Wish because it´s better than SB, Calm Mind because Bliss doesn´t learn Amnesia, Body Slam STAB and Thunder variation. Serene Grace helps Slam and Thunder.

Spikey Chicken Roll

Libra (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Iron Barbs
252 Def/ 200 Spdef/ 58 HP
Impish
- Gyro Ball (HP Fighting?)
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed

I need a Physical wall too. Plus, I need to protect myself from Dragons. Ferrothorn, with both awesome Def AND Spdef, can wall a lot of things. Gyro Ball is reliable STAB, but Ferro is Attack based, not Special Attack based. Power Whip is more powerful but less reliable, Stealth Rock is...Stealth Rock, and Leech Seed is better than Ingrain by far.

Threat List

None. Had one but switched the team around and currently too lazy to make the entire thing over again. The list I had was outdated anyway.



So, anyway, I would like to thank you for looking and I would appreciate any suggestions.
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Last edited by tente2; August 7th, 2011 at 08:19 PM.
  #2    
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:06 AM
Fairy's Avatar
Fairy
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Nice looking team! :D
I haven't seen a Rain team without Toxicroak or Rotom-W in a while. Oh, btw, I'm not going to mention this again, but could someone cover the legality of Swift Swim + Drizzle?

I'm going to keep this relatively short... for once.

By what your Type Table shows, five of your Pokemon take neutral damage from Ground type attacks, save Latios with Levitate. That means you may have a problem with Excadrill and the "more than common" Earthquake that many Pokemon in this Metagame sport. If you're not able to counter these threats well, you may find that it's a big issue. :( Also, I don't know anything about Armaldo, but personally, I've never seen him on a Rain team.

Most people run a Choice Specs variant of Politoed. I'm not sure how that'll work since it's not your lead but, this is always an option:

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Drizzle
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Modest [+Sp.Attack; -Attack]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Electric]

In its essence, it's a pretty simple set. The Scarf is going to make Revenge killing very easy and STAB Hydro Pump with Rain boost is only going to make it sweeter. Ice Beam deals with Dragons, simple as that. Now, Earthquake have more than enough competitive merit, but Focus Blast is going to get the jump on Tyranitar to stop any Sandstorms, plus it makes more sense cause it's a Special Attack. HP Electric will take out any bulky waters that wall Politoed. Oh, and Hyper Beam is a big no-no. ;( Two turn moves like that just give your opponent a free opportunity to attack or set up.

Also, Latios pretty much always comes with Surf and would undoubtedly benefit from a Life Orb > Wise Glasses.

Latios @ Life Orb
Levitate
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Timid [+Speed; -Attack]
- Surf
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover / Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunder

Surf is going to hit like a bus. STAB Draco Meteor speaks for itself but you could also go with Dragon Pulse if you don't like the drop in Special Attack. HP Fire can take on Metagross, who Latios can have problems with because of it's resistance to Dragon, but HP Fire doesn't necessarily work well in the Rain. Hence, why Recover is there. Basically, Recover is mentioned because of the Life Orb but Choice Specs can also work on Latios instead. If all else fails, HP Fire sucks, you don't want a reliable recovery move, and Draco Meteor is killing everything that Ice Beam should, just go with a 100% accurate Thunder. :D

Hnnng... Jellicent likes Will-O-Wisp > Toxic with Scald because it has a harder time stalling for Toxic damage while your opponent sets up. Water Absorb > Cursed Body always. Jellicent already absorbs water hits like a champ with a good switch in, so it might as well *literally* absorb water. Also, you might like to run a Bold [+Defense; -Attack] nature over Calm with an EV spread of 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Speed. Jellicent has enough Special Defense, so why not give it to Defense.

I hope this helped a bit!
This wasn't too long, was it? ;P
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  #3    
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:12 AM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexial357 View Post

Oh, btw, I'm not going to mention this again, but could someone cover the legality of Swift Swim + Drizzle?
Swift Swim + Drizzle isn't allowed if you follow our tiers (or more specifically, Smogon tiers). Pokemon Online's server allows it though, I think. Not sure entirely.

I'll probably come back for a good, actual rate later. I'm just kind of browsing through threads quickly before I have to go. :x
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  #4    
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:29 AM
flamehaze94's Avatar
flamehaze94
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Pokemon Online does indeed allow SS + Drizzle. However, if you @OP wish to go that route, there are a couple more threats that you have to prepare for like Deoxys-N, Blaziken, and other Swift Swimmers.

Your team looks alright, but the movesets and EV spread is off. For now, Alexial's suggestions look pretty good.
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  #5    
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:35 AM
PlatinumDude's Avatar
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I know that you want Mienshao to go mixed, but having 2 Fighting moves and U-turn leaves you walled by Ghosts:
-Fake Out
-Hi Jump Kick
-U-turn
-Hidden Power (Ice)
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator

HP Ice is there so that Mienshao can deal with Gliscor and Landorus.
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  #6    
Old July 24th, 2011, 10:15 AM
tente2's Avatar
tente2
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Thanks a lot everybody! Especially Alexial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexial357 View Post
Nice looking team! :D
I haven't seen a Rain team without Toxicroak or Rotom-W in a while. Oh, btw, I'm not going to mention this again, but could someone cover the legality of Swift Swim + Drizzle?

I'm going to keep this relatively short... for once.

By what your Type Table shows, five of your Pokemon take neutral damage from Ground type attacks, save Latios with Levitate. That means you may have a problem with Excadrill and the "more than common" Earthquake that many Pokemon in this Metagame sport. If you're not able to counter these threats well, you may find that it's a big issue. :( Also, I don't know anything about Armaldo, but personally, I've never seen him on a Rain team.

Most people run a Choice Specs variant of Politoed. I'm not sure how that'll work since it's not your lead but, this is always an option:

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Drizzle
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Modest [+Sp.Attack; -Attack]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Electric]

In its essence, it's a pretty simple set. The Scarf is going to make Revenge killing very easy and STAB Hydro Pump with Rain boost is only going to make it sweeter. Ice Beam deals with Dragons, simple as that. Now, Earthquake have more than enough competitive merit, but Focus Blast is going to get the jump on Tyranitar to stop any Sandstorms, plus it makes more sense cause it's a Special Attack. HP Electric will take out any bulky waters that wall Politoed. Oh, and Hyper Beam is a big no-no. ;( Two turn moves like that just give your opponent a free opportunity to attack or set up.

Also, Latios pretty much always comes with Surf and would undoubtedly benefit from a Life Orb > Wise Glasses.

Latios @ Life Orb
Levitate
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Timid [+Speed; -Attack]
- Surf
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover / Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunder

Surf is going to hit like a bus. STAB Draco Meteor speaks for itself but you could also go with Dragon Pulse if you don't like the drop in Special Attack. HP Fire can take on Metagross, who Latios can have problems with because of it's resistance to Dragon, but HP Fire doesn't necessarily work well in the Rain. Hence, why Recover is there. Basically, Recover is mentioned because of the Life Orb but Choice Specs can also work on Latios instead. If all else fails, HP Fire sucks, you don't want a reliable recovery move, and Draco Meteor is killing everything that Ice Beam should, just go with a 100% accurate Thunder. :D

Hnnng... Jellicent likes Will-O-Wisp > Toxic with Scald because it has a harder time stalling for Toxic damage while your opponent sets up. Water Absorb > Cursed Body always. Jellicent already absorbs water hits like a champ with a good switch in, so it might as well *literally* absorb water. Also, you might like to run a Bold [+Defense; -Attack] nature over Calm with an EV spread of 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Speed. Jellicent has enough Special Defense, so why not give it to Defense.

I hope this helped a bit!
This wasn't too long, was it? ;P
Thanks!

Anyway, since I´m going to switch out Politoed now that he´s useless, I can consider something that can counter Ground-types more effectively. Thanks, I actually hadn´t noticed that!

I´m dumping Politoed, but thanks for the moveset anyway.

EVs sound good, Surf and Psyshock sounds smarter, Life Orb looks like a good idea, thanks!

Two burning moves? What´s the point of that? It seems like a huge space waster, even if there´s really a huge problem with Toxic (which I don´t see). I can include something like Shadow Ball maybe? Or did you mean replacing Toxic AND Scald? Also, Water Absorb could prevent other Waters from taking advantage of the rain, but I see Cursed Body working more efficiently. Since most Physicals doing Contact, I could invest more in HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrai View Post


Swift Swim + Drizzle isn't allowed if you follow our tiers (or more specifically, Smogon tiers). Pokemon Online's server allows it though, I think. Not sure entirely.
That sucks. Thanks for telling me anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumDude View Post
I know that you want Mienshao to go mixed, but having 2 Fighting moves and U-turn leaves you walled by Ghosts:
-Fake Out
-Hi Jump Kick
-U-turn
-Hidden Power (Ice)
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator

HP Ice is there so that Mienshao can deal with Gliscor and Landorus.
With Regenerator it´s not as necessary, but I might give HP a few EVs anyway. Other than that, Hidden Power Ice is a great idea, thanks, I didn´t see the Ghost flaw. I don´t know how smart it would be to have Naive (most of Mienshao´s weaknesses are Special-oriented), I might have Hasty or Lonely.
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  #7    
Old July 24th, 2011, 12:11 PM
Fairy's Avatar
Fairy
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Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tente2 View Post
Thanks a lot everybody! Especially Alexial.
Awww. Thank you very much! :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by tente2 View Post
Two burning moves? What´s the point of that? It seems like a huge space waster, even if there´s really a huge problem with Toxic (which I don´t see). I can include something like Shadow Ball maybe? Or did you mean replacing Toxic AND Scald? Also, Water Absorb could prevent other Waters from taking advantage of the rain, but I see Cursed Body working more efficiently. Since most Physicals doing Contact, I could invest more in HP.
Allow me to explain this a little more.. I really didn't go into all the detail necessary to make the Will-O-Wisp+Scald thing make sense.

Actually, I'm going to steal the whole thing from Vrai, who made two very comprehensive comments in other threads to people who had a similar set on their Jellicents.
thanks vrai ilu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrai

Yes it does. Jellicent would prefer a more reliable source of Burn. Think of this: if you're trying to burn something, wouldn't you rather have 70 acc than 30 acc? That's basically what's going on there. Jellicent needs Burn to function properly and beat the things it is supposed to, like Ferro and Scizor and Skarmory. Toxic sounds good on paper but it's absolutely inferior to Will-o-Wisp in the long run.
And

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrai

Will-o-Wisp is greatly preferred as Jellicent would rather improve its defense (by cutting attack) rather than trying to outstall Toxic damage while they just set up.
Essentially, it's the synergy between the two that makes it such a beautiful combination on Jellicent.

I hope that clears things up a bit!
Vrai get 100% credit for this post.

EDIT: Forgot something. ;o; I just want to share my experience with Cursed Body and Water Absorb.

For a while, I completely forgot to change Jellicent's ability from Cursed Body to Water Absorb on the Team Builder for Pokemon Online. It just totally slipped my mind. So, on the first battle with my team-- I switched out to Jellicent and didn't "absorb" the attack. However, Cursed Body hit and the opponent's Pokemon began to struggle. Which pretty much won me the battle.

Now, I do not possess the clairvoyance to foresee how the battle would have gone had I not disabled their attack, so that's not to say that Water Absorb has absolutely no competitive merit. The abilities are equivalent and interchangeable depending on what Pokemon you are facing. After testing it for a short while and having the same circumstance happen a few more times, I did end up switching my Jellicent's ability to Water Absorb. Simply put, it has been invaluable at times and really served my team well. My point is, you're going to have to find out what works best for you and your team based on the experiences you have while battling. Maybe Water Absorb will be completely useless and you'll hate it. Maybe not. Just know that choosing one over the other isn't necessarily a disservice to Jellicent. I just gave you my personal preference.

Okay, that's it! :D
If you want help finding a Pokemon to replace Politoed, let us know or just edit your post with your new ideas!
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Last edited by Fairy; July 24th, 2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: forgot to mention something
  #8    
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:15 PM
tente2's Avatar
tente2
"Outta my way, dammit!"
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Snowpoint City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexial357 View Post


Awww. Thank you very much! :D



Allow me to explain this a little more.. I really didn't go into all the detail necessary to make the Will-O-Wisp+Scald thing make sense.

Actually, I'm going to steal the whole thing from Vrai, who made two very comprehensive comments in other threads to people who had a similar set on their Jellicents.
thanks vrai ilu



And



Essentially, it's the synergy between the two that makes it such a beautiful combination on Jellicent.

I hope that clears things up a bit!
Vrai get 100% credit for this post.

EDIT: Forgot something. ;o; I just want to share my experience with Cursed Body and Water Absorb.

For a while, I completely forgot to change Jellicent's ability from Cursed Body to Water Absorb on the Team Builder for Pokemon Online. It just totally slipped my mind. So, on the first battle with my team-- I switched out to Jellicent and didn't "absorb" the attack. However, Cursed Body hit and the opponent's Pokemon began to struggle. Which pretty much won me the battle.

Now, I do not possess the clairvoyance to foresee how the battle would have gone had I not disabled their attack, so that's not to say that Water Absorb has absolutely no competitive merit. The abilities are equivalent and interchangeable depending on what Pokemon you are facing. After testing it for a short while and having the same circumstance happen a few more times, I did end up switching my Jellicent's ability to Water Absorb. Simply put, it has been invaluable at times and really served my team well. My point is, you're going to have to find out what works best for you and your team based on the experiences you have while battling. Maybe Water Absorb will be completely useless and you'll hate it. Maybe not. Just know that choosing one over the other isn't necessarily a disservice to Jellicent. I just gave you my personal preference.

Okay, that's it! :D
If you want help finding a Pokemon to replace Politoed, let us know or just edit your post with your new ideas!
Thanks a lot again for continuing to give me great advice.

I think I'm going to have to playtest until I find the better ability.

I still don't see the point of Scald+Will-o-Wisp. The whole argument (thanks for elaborating, by the way) seems to be evidence that Scald is inferior and should be switched. I see why Toxic isn't really a good idea anymore, but when you compare it like that Scald looks like something worth switching for something like Shadow Ball or Giga Drain (Jelly learns Giga Drain right?).
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Last edited by tente2; July 24th, 2011 at 05:23 PM.
  #9    
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Vrai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tente2 View Post
I still don't see the point of Scald+Will-o-Wisp. The whole argument (thanks for elaborating, by the way) seems to be evidence that Scald is inferior and should be switched. I see why Toxic isn't really a good idea anymore, but when you compare it like that Scald looks like something worth switching for something like Shadow Ball or Giga Drain (Jelly learns Giga Drain right?).
Why is Scald inferior? Jellicent isn't meant to hit anything hard. Coverage is necessary on sweepers, not walls (which Jellicent is). You don't need to aim to hit things hard when you can use a utility move like Scald and occasionally catch things with burn.
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  #10    
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:34 PM
dreyko's Avatar
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well will-o-wisp definitely burns the foe if it hits considering it has 70% accuracy ( i think). but i feel it would be worth your while to also put scald on jellicent because it gets STAB and a boost in the rain. it just happens to have a 30% burn chance and 100% accuracy. you could choose hydro pump over scald, it just doesn't have 100% accuracy and misses can get annoying.

hope this helps =)
  #11    
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:44 PM
Perrie ✿'s Avatar
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I don't know if that has been mentioned, too lazy to read the other posts. ):

Why is Armaldo on a rain dance team? It's water weakness is left wide open. If you're at least not using Politoed to set-up rain at least use Tornadus who is guaranteed to go first with Rain Dance. \: Focus Sash > Focus Band on Accelgor. Putting 255 Ev's onto Pokemon is pointless because only 252 of those ev's count.

I'll post more rating stuff when I've finished what I need to do.
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  #12    
Old July 24th, 2011, 05:58 PM
tente2's Avatar
tente2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrai View Post


Why is Scald inferior? Jellicent isn't meant to hit anything hard. Coverage is necessary on sweepers, not walls (which Jellicent is). You don't need to aim to hit things hard when you can use a utility move like Scald and occasionally catch things with burn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyko View Post
well will-o-wisp definitely burns the foe if it hits considering it has 70% accuracy ( i think). but i feel it would be worth your while to also put scald on jellicent because it gets STAB and a boost in the rain. it just happens to have a 30% burn chance and 100% accuracy. you could choose hydro pump over scald, it just doesn't have 100% accuracy and misses can get annoying.

hope this helps =)
Well, I guess my main beef was that they both sort of do the same thing. And I was trying to get Jelly to hit hard, but yeah, it's a wall, it isn't necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
I don't know if that has been mentioned, too lazy to read the other posts. ):

Why is Armaldo on a rain dance team? It's water weakness is left wide open. If you're at least not using Politoed to set-up rain at least use Tornadus who is guaranteed to go first with Rain Dance. \: Focus Sash > Focus Band on Accelgor. Putting 255 Ev's onto Pokemon is pointless because only 252 of those ev's count.

I'll post more rating stuff when I've finished what I need to do.
If you mean Drizzle, Drizzle+Rain Dance is banned. Tornadus sounds great though.

I'm curious: why do only 252 EVs "count"? (I don't know all about pokemon stats and whatnot yet.)
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Last edited by tente2; July 24th, 2011 at 06:04 PM.
  #13    
Old July 24th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Perrie ✿'s Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tente2 View Post
Well, I guess my main beef was that they both sort of do the same thing. And I was trying to get Jelly to hit hard, but yeah, it's a wall, it isn't necessary.



If you mean Drizzle, Drizzle+Rain Dance is banned. Tornadus sounds great though.

I'm curious: why do only 252 EVs "count"? (I don't know all about pokemon stats and whatnot yet.)
I didn't see that Armaldo and Kingdra had Rain Dance. Anyway, Tornadus would be better to use over Accelgor.

A Pokemon can have a total of 510 Ev's. So if you put 252 Into Speed and then 252 into Attack, you'll have 6 left over. But, only 4 of those 6 Ev's will count, so you'll always have 2 left over. When you put 255 Ev's onto a Pokemon 3 of those Ev's won't be used and if you're doing it for two stats so 255/255, you're wasting 6 which 4 of those could go into another set.

A basic Ev spread is 4/252/252. You get me?
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  #14    
Old July 25th, 2011, 05:27 PM
tente2's Avatar
tente2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post


I didn't see that Armaldo and Kingdra had Rain Dance. Anyway, Tornadus would be better to use over Accelgor.

A Pokemon can have a total of 510 Ev's. So if you put 252 Into Speed and then 252 into Attack, you'll have 6 left over. But, only 4 of those 6 Ev's will count, so you'll always have 2 left over. When you put 255 Ev's onto a Pokemon 3 of those Ev's won't be used and if you're doing it for two stats so 255/255, you're wasting 6 which 4 of those could go into another set.

A basic Ev spread is 4/252/252. You get me?
This is kind of a late reply, but I still don't get it. I switched the EVs around anyway, but 255 + 255 = 510. Why will 6 EVs go "unsused"? And yeah, I switched Accelgor for Thundurus (I thought Tornadus's weakness to 100% Thunder is kind of risky.)
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  #15    
Old July 25th, 2011, 05:59 PM
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thundurus also gets a weakness to electric type attacks, so it really just personal preference on tornadus vs thundurus as a rain dance user.

let me try to help clear things up.

for every four EV points 1 point is added to that particular stat that you are EV training in. putting 255 EV's into stats wastes four EV's or the equivalent of 1 point. it wastes the EV's because those extra 3 EV's you put into that stat will not add up to one point. so, your better off just putting 252 EV's into the stats because 252 + 252 = 504 this means that there are a total of 6 EVs left over, 4 of which you can invest into one extra point.

hope this wasn't too confusing =)
  #16    
Old July 25th, 2011, 08:21 PM
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If you're worried about Focus Blasts accuracy on Thundurus just change it to Hp Ice.

Thunder + Hp Ice could create the infamous combo; BoltBeam (Which is Thunderbolt and Ice Beam) but variations work. Thundurus also wants a Timid nature. Since Attack isn't being used.

Mienshaos Ev's are messed up. I see you're trying to run a mixed set.

I use Mienshao on nearly all of my teams running this set; 212 Atk / 44 SpA / 252 Spe / Naive nature.
U-Turn / Hp Ice / Fake Out / Hi-Jump Kick

I'd also make Kingdra full on offensive, with 4 Hp / 252 Spa / 252 Spe @Choice Specs and a Modest nature.
Surf/Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse / Flash Cannon

It's movepool may not be bustling but it works with what it has. Set-Up the rain and watch her destroy things.

Make sure Jellicent has Water Absorb. It makes things a lot easier when covering Thundurus/Armaldo against Water type Moves.
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  #17    
Old July 27th, 2011, 08:08 AM
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tente2
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Okay, did some playtesting. (15 matches.) Results were:

Wins: 5
Loses: 8
Forfeits (against me): 2 (While I was winning, too, sour losers)
(All Cursed Body)

I drew a few conclusions:

-Cursed Body is useless (it's worked before, but during ALL 15 matches it didn't take effect, not once. And there were three matches in which Water Absorb would have come in handy)
-Mienshao doesn't do it's job right.
-TrickScarf Azelf cripples Jelly (but that was already kind of obvious)
-My team DESTROYS other Rain teams (Aries 1HKOed all 6 of the opponent's pokemon, without ever switching)
-I need another Physical sweeper
-Aries is fine as a lead


Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
If you're worried about Focus Blasts accuracy on Thundurus just change it to Hp Ice.

Thunder + Hp Ice could create the infamous combo; BoltBeam (Which is Thunderbolt and Ice Beam) but variations work. Thundurus also wants a Timid nature. Since Attack isn't being used.

Mienshaos Ev's are messed up. I see you're trying to run a mixed set.

I use Mienshao on nearly all of my teams running this set; 212 Atk / 44 SpA / 252 Spe / Naive nature.
U-Turn / Hp Ice / Fake Out / Hi-Jump Kick

I'd also make Kingdra full on offensive, with 4 Hp / 252 Spa / 252 Spe @Choice Specs and a Modest nature.
Surf/Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse / Flash Cannon

It's movepool may not be bustling but it works with what it has. Set-Up the rain and watch her destroy things.

Make sure Jellicent has Water Absorb. It makes things a lot easier when covering Thundurus/Armaldo against Water type Moves.
kingdra set sounds nice, thanks, but I'm giving up Mienshao.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyko View Post
thundurus also gets a weakness to electric type attacks, so it really just personal preference on tornadus vs thundurus as a rain dance user.

let me try to help clear things up.

for every four EV points 1 point is added to that particular stat that you are EV training in. putting 255 EV's into stats wastes four EV's or the equivalent of 1 point. it wastes the EV's because those extra 3 EV's you put into that stat will not add up to one point. so, your better off just putting 252 EV's into the stats because 252 + 252 = 504 this means that there are a total of 6 EVs left over, 4 of which you can invest into one extra point.

hope this wasn't too confusing =)
Thanks for clearing the EV thing a bit more, but Thundurus takes neutral damage from Electric??

I will update my team later, including Kingdra, Jelly and Mienshao's replacement, later (I don't have time to do it now)
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Old July 27th, 2011, 08:20 AM
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yep you are right thundurus does take neutral from electric type attacks, so he would be the better rain dance user over tornadus for that reason.
  #19    
Old July 27th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Vrai
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Hi there.

Why are you using Armaldo? Serious question. It has poor defensive typing, it's slow, and it's not particularly effective, even in Rain (at least, as far as I've ever seen). I think you'd have a lot of success by replacing it with Kabutops. Rock/Water STABs have very good coverage and the few things that do resist it (like Ferrothorn and Empoleon) are mauled by Low Kick. It has 10 less base Attack than Armaldo but makes up for it with the ability to actually use the rain to boost its Waterfall to levels higher than Armaldo ever could. The increase in speed is big too; you don't have to worry about random high-speed scarfers like Armaldo would.

Try it out, at the very least. I think you'll have a lot more success with it than Armaldo.


Kabutops @ Life Orb
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet / Low Kick
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  #20    
Old July 27th, 2011, 10:38 AM
tente2's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrai View Post
Hi there.

Why are you using Armaldo? Serious question. It has poor defensive typing, it's slow, and it's not particularly effective, even in Rain (at least, as far as I've ever seen). I think you'd have a lot of success by replacing it with Kabutops. Rock/Water STABs have very good coverage and the few things that do resist it (like Ferrothorn and Empoleon) are mauled by Low Kick. It has 10 less base Attack than Armaldo but makes up for it with the ability to actually use the rain to boost its Waterfall to levels higher than Armaldo ever could. The increase in speed is big too; you don't have to worry about random high-speed scarfers like Armaldo would.

Try it out, at the very least. I think you'll have a lot more success with it than Armaldo.


Kabutops @ Life Orb
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet / Low Kick
Armaldo did have a few issues. Mainly, it's not very capable of the only thing I need it for: Physically sweeping. I'll definetely try it, thanks.
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Old July 27th, 2011, 12:19 PM
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I don't know if your still looking for a Physical Sweeper, but here is one option. Just as something to consider, Toxicroak may be a good choice. I'm not recommending Toxicroak as a replacement for anything, but while you're testing out effective Rain Sweepers, Toxicroak may do a lot for your team.


Toxicroak @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Black Sludge
Dry Skin
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Adamant [+Attack; -Sp.Attack]
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Cross Chop / Poison Jab
- Stone Edge / Earthquake

Toxicroak has great typing, the Fighting/Poison combination give it a bunch of useful resistances including Rock, Fighting, Dark, Bug, Poison, Grass, and in tandem with Dry Skin, a Water immunity. Better yet, with Dry Skin, Toxicroak isn't half as Defensively inept as it's base stats would imply. Now, allow me to talk about Dry Skin for a bit... It's basically Water Absorb but with a few perks. Yes, Toxicroak has Water immunity and recovers 25% of it's HP when hit with a Water type attack. However, with Rain support, Toxicroak will also heal 12.5% of its HP every turn (couple that with Black Sludge? Yes please). That being said, Toxicroak will take an extra 25% damage from Fire type attacks and lose 12.5% of its HP if the weather is Sun. But hey, Fire looses its power in the Rain anyway, so it's safe to say that Dry Skin's benefits outweigh its shortcomings, at least in most cases. On to the Attacks. Toxicroak has access to a pretty substantial move pool and with Swords Dance, which commands most of Toxicroak's popularity, you're set up for some threatening sweeping. As if Toxicroak needed a more respectable move pool, it has in it's arsenal, Sucker Punch. The strongest priority move, especially if you've gotten a boost from Swords Dance. It's sure to take out any fragile sweepers Toxicroak may face and make those Psychic and Ghost types think twice about taking him on. As I'm sure you know, Sucker Punch comes with its own set of disadvantages, so prediction is going to come into play when using it. In addition to Swords Dance and Sucker Punch, Toxicroak has a few more interesting niches that make it such a powerful opponent. You could go with Cross Chop and Stone Edge, a nice Fighting/Rock combination that will give you wide coverage, a STAB attack (granted you have a lower accuracy and less PP), and the chance of a serious critical hit. Theoretically, you could go with the Wide Lens to up Stone Edge's accuracy from 80% to 88%, but it comes at the cost of an offensive item slot. Second, you could go with Poison Jab and Earthquake. While Poison Jab is there for the STAB (a less powerful STAB but with reliability and plenty of PP), Earthquake provides a powerful move that will hit pretty much anything. Now on to items. Personally, I like the Life Orb. It will give you the biggest boost to Attack, 30% exactly, and you can heal off the recoil in the Rain. The Expert Best provides a lesser boost of 20% to super effective Attacks, but at no cost to HP. Black Sludge is only listed because you're already healing a whole bunch, why not more?

So anyway, again, I thought I would just throw Toxicroak out there for you to test while you're looking for Physical Sweepers. The biggest downfall to this whole thing is that Toxicroak doesn't have Swift Swim, which is probably the most essential Ability to have in tandem with Rain. But hey, people have been living without it during its ban and doing well for themselves. Maybe you can too.

Good luck! :3
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  #22    
Old July 29th, 2011, 08:16 AM
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Okay, something about the team needs to change. I was playtesting again, I was going for 15 matches but I stopped at 6 because I lost every single match. Something needs to change.

Libra does it's job splendidly, Aries sets up Rain reliably, and that's as far as I go. Gemini doesn't wall in competetive battles as effeciently as I expected, especially compared to Libra. Virgo doesn't sweep too well, Yawn is useless, will change it for the moveset somebody recommended, but all in all Virgo doesn't do much. Capricorn... has her moments of usefulness, but he doesn't sweep too well either. I might switch him for Dragonite. Cancer...he does his job about as well as Armaldo did, so Toxicroak is up for testing. We'll see if he does better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexial357 View Post
I don't know if your still looking for a Physical Sweeper, but here is one option. Just as something to consider, Toxicroak may be a good choice. I'm not recommending Toxicroak as a replacement for anything, but while you're testing out effective Rain Sweepers, Toxicroak may do a lot for your team.


Toxicroak @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Black Sludge
Dry Skin
252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Adamant [+Attack; -Sp.Attack]
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Cross Chop / Poison Jab
- Stone Edge / Earthquake

Toxicroak has great typing, the Fighting/Poison combination give it a bunch of useful resistances including Rock, Fighting, Dark, Bug, Poison, Grass, and in tandem with Dry Skin, a Water immunity. Better yet, with Dry Skin, Toxicroak isn't half as Defensively inept as it's base stats would imply. Now, allow me to talk about Dry Skin for a bit... It's basically Water Absorb but with a few perks. Yes, Toxicroak has Water immunity and recovers 25% of it's HP when hit with a Water type attack. However, with Rain support, Toxicroak will also heal 12.5% of its HP every turn (couple that with Black Sludge? Yes please). That being said, Toxicroak will take an extra 25% damage from Fire type attacks and lose 12.5% of its HP if the weather is Sun. But hey, Fire looses its power in the Rain anyway, so it's safe to say that Dry Skin's benefits outweigh its shortcomings, at least in most cases. On to the Attacks. Toxicroak has access to a pretty substantial move pool and with Swords Dance, which commands most of Toxicroak's popularity, you're set up for some threatening sweeping. As if Toxicroak needed a more respectable move pool, it has in it's arsenal, Sucker Punch. The strongest priority move, especially if you've gotten a boost from Swords Dance. It's sure to take out any fragile sweepers Toxicroak may face and make those Psychic and Ghost types think twice about taking him on. As I'm sure you know, Sucker Punch comes with its own set of disadvantages, so prediction is going to come into play when using it. In addition to Swords Dance and Sucker Punch, Toxicroak has a few more interesting niches that make it such a powerful opponent. You could go with Cross Chop and Stone Edge, a nice Fighting/Rock combination that will give you wide coverage, a STAB attack (granted you have a lower accuracy and less PP), and the chance of a serious critical hit. Theoretically, you could go with the Wide Lens to up Stone Edge's accuracy from 80% to 88%, but it comes at the cost of an offensive item slot. Second, you could go with Poison Jab and Earthquake. While Poison Jab is there for the STAB (a less powerful STAB but with reliability and plenty of PP), Earthquake provides a powerful move that will hit pretty much anything. Now on to items. Personally, I like the Life Orb. It will give you the biggest boost to Attack, 30% exactly, and you can heal off the recoil in the Rain. The Expert Best provides a lesser boost of 20% to super effective Attacks, but at no cost to HP. Black Sludge is only listed because you're already healing a whole bunch, why not more?

So anyway, again, I thought I would just throw Toxicroak out there for you to test while you're looking for Physical Sweepers. The biggest downfall to this whole thing is that Toxicroak doesn't have Swift Swim, which is probably the most essential Ability to have in tandem with Rain. But hey, people have been living without it during its ban and doing well for themselves. Maybe you can too.

Good luck! :3
Thanks!
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  #23    
Old July 29th, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Replace Ferrothorn's Iron Head with Gyro Ball. that way you also don't have to rely on Quick Claw and have space for Leftovers.

And you definitely need another rain dancer. With Thundurus as the only rain dance set-upper, hail teams would probably laugh at this (100% accurate Blizzard would discourage Thundurus from switching in). It also limits your team because you would have to rely only on Thundurus to set up a rain dance. Kingdra could possibly have Draco Meteor replaced with Rain Dance, but if it works for you well as an "emergency move," you could keep it in there and look for other rain dancers.

I'll come up with possible pokemon to consider, but above are what I got for improving this team atm.
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Last edited by 2Cool4Mewtwo; July 30th, 2011 at 02:01 PM.
  #24    
Old August 2nd, 2011, 01:54 PM
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Well, sorry for not updating in a while but I´m on vacation and this place has nightmarishly slow internet. I replaced Jelly with Blissey, Kabutops with Toxicroak, Latios with Dragonite.

I don´t have time to go in-depth with the updates for now, but the main post is updated so look at that.

2cool4mewtwo: Yeah, Gyro Ball sounds nice. Thanks.
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  #25    
Old August 3rd, 2011, 01:19 PM
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One Rain setter will NOT work, you need 3 or even 4 on teams without Drizzle. Preferably Dugtrio to remove Tyranitar and Ninetales too.

Bliss needs max Defense ALWAYS, it takes hits as good as Max HP Scizor and Spiritimb with it, plus you have Calm Mind.

Toxicroak wants Drain Punch over Earthquake for STAB, that and it lets you heal.

Kingdra wants Modest and Choice Specs. HP Fighting over Flash Cannon for Ferrothorn. Dragon Pulse over Ice Beam for late game sweeps and Ice Beam offers redundant coverage with Dragon.

Ill come back for a more in depth rate later.
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