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  #1    
Old December 29th, 2011, 09:02 AM
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The Japanese have been illegally harpooning whales off the coast of Antarctica for quite some time and state that they are only doing so in the name of research. They maintain that they have been killing only the legal amount for this 'research' and they state they're doing nothing wrong. The Japanese have been hunting the Minke and Fin whales (As well as other species that inhabit that area) in the Southern oceans and the only type of enforcement to the whaling law is a group of volunteers on board the ship Steve Irwin. While the Japanese claim that the crew of the Steve Irwin is trying to enforce violent actions upon Japanese whaling crews, they have no proof of such. The crewman of Steve Irwin are only enforcing this law because no other country is enforcing it, which makes it easier for poachers to illegally kill whales without interference from governments.

What I want to know is: Do you feel it's right that this is being done? Do you think the government (of any country) should step in and help out? What's your opinion? /Discuss

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  #2    
Old December 29th, 2011, 10:40 AM
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I have actually watched a bunch of Whale Wars episodes and know the ongoing mission of the Sea Shepherd bunch. It's intriguing TV.

To me, I think a major reason that other countries won't throw the book at the Japanese whalers is for PR reasons. There are probably people in different governments who do care about animal conservation, but they also don't want to be seen as bullies who are trying to tell a country what to do (like how people think the United States are forcing their values on the world). That may be a weak answer to you, but friendships between countries is something they are not willing to break in order to protect the whaling sanctuary.

Then you got the Japanese fishermen who have been doing this stuff for generations who will use the argument of it's part of the heritage of Japan and they won't let gaijins or any outsiders stop what they have been doing for life. So having the people who made "The Cove" and Sea Shepherd appear out of nowhere all the time is a pain in their ass. The Japanese people seem smart enough to realize that this is wrong and might think about ending the hunts, but pride is a strong factor and efforts to end the hunts might backfire and will continue as to rub it in the outsider's faces.

In all honesty, Sea Shepherd does a good job in what they are doing, which is harassing the whalers and stalking the Yushin Maru to prevent whales from being processed. If you remember last year, they actually stopped the hunt early with the Japanese whalers only getting 10% of the quota. I have no clue how well they are doing this year. If there were any government organizations trying to do the same thing, there will be red tape flying all over the place and stalling tactics from the Japanese. That is one of Sea Shepherd's advantages.

You forgot to mention that the real reason the Japanese are whaling anyway is because it's basically a fishing operation. They are selling the meat back in the mainland. If it was about research, it would have ended YEARS ago.

Sadly, I don't see this ending anytime soon, leaving Sea Shepherd the only force protecting the whales. And if last season was any indication, they are doing a good job by themselves.
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Old December 29th, 2011, 10:52 AM
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To me, I think a major reason that other countries won't throw the book at the Japanese whalers is for PR reasons. There are probably people in different governments who do care about animal conservation, but they also don't want to be seen as bullies who are trying to tell a country what to do (like how people think the United States are forcing their values on the world). That may be a weak answer to you, but friendships between countries is something they are not willing to break in order to protect the whaling sanctuary.


I do understand the importance of friendship between countries, but, I still find it inexcusable for them not to enforce a law that they have made. Imo, I put the lives of animals that are rapidly disappearing in front of 'friendship' between countries, or at least they can set aside their differences and enforce the law.

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Then you got the Japanese fishermen who have been doing this stuff for generations who will use the argument of it's part of the heritage of Japan and they won't let gaijins or any outsiders stop what they have been doing for life. So having the people who made "The Cove" and Sea Shepherd appear out of nowhere all the time is a pain in their ass. The Japanese people seem smart enough to realize that this is wrong and might think about ending the hunts, but pride is a strong factor and efforts to end the hunts might backfire and will continue as to rub it in the outsider's faces.
Heritage? I don't think going out in the Arctic ocean and killing whales is heritage. The actions seen in 'The Cove' is debatable, but once again, I feel that their 'pride' should be thrown away to help save the species. After all, the whales play a much bigger role in the ecosystem than we do.

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In all honesty, Sea Shepherd does a good job in what they are doing, which is harassing the whalers and stalking the Yushin Maru to prevent whales from being processed. If you remember last year, they actually stopped the hunt early with the Japanese whalers only getting 10% of the quota. I have no clue how well they are doing this year. If there were any government organizations trying to do the same thing, there will be red tape flying all over the place and stalling tactics from the Japanese. That is one of Sea Shepherd's advantages.
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You forgot to mention that the real reason the Japanese are whaling anyway is because it's basically a fishing operation. They are selling the meat back in the mainland. If it was about research, it would have ended YEARS ago.

Sadly, I don't see this ending anytime soon, leaving Sea Shepherd the only force protecting the whales. And if last season was any indication, they are doing a good job by themselves.


Forgot to mention that, but I do agree. I honestly think they need more people out their that actually care about the animals, because we all know that the governments around the world aren't going to do anything. 10% is still too many casualties, imo.
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Old December 29th, 2011, 11:19 AM
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Don't forget to mention that Japan gave $29M of the earthquake/tsunami relief fund to the whaling industry!

Article Here

It's not only whales, fishermen hunt other sea-life for profit, notably shark fins. It's cruel and sick. They cut the fins off and release most back into the ocean. You can see some here. Most of it is illegal.

None of it apparently even tastes that good!
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Old December 29th, 2011, 11:24 AM
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Don't forget to mention that Japan gave $29M of the earthquake/tsunami relief fund to the whaling industry!

Article Here

It's not only whales, fishermen hunt other sea-life for profit, notably shark fins. It's cruel and sick. They cut the fins off and release most back into the ocean. You can see some here. Most of it is illegal.

None of it apparently even tastes that good!
Did not know about that, but, shark finning has been going on for a long time. However, this thread's directly pertained to whaling and the such.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 12:05 PM
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I don't think it's right. The only argument I've head for continuing this practice that holds even a little water is that it's a part of their culture, but really it doesn't matter if whaling is a traditional custom or anything like that. It's not like something which was done once gets to be done forever. Things change and the world needs to adapt. People in Japan don't all still go around wearing kimono everywhere. They aren't less "cultural" because of it. It's not as if whaling makes up a huge portion of the economy. Few people even eat whale meat.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 12:19 PM
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I don't think activities like these are right at all. Harpooning whales in the name of research and false assumptions? There's obviously some sort of conspiracy here, in my opinion. Even if these activities are really being carried out for research, killing animals for research is something I don't support. I don't support killing animals, in general. Research should be carried out for protection and conservation of a species. Research in this context could very well be a mere excuse. I also think that issues like this concern the world as a whole, and not only the government of a particular country. But yes, law enforcement should be prioritized.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 12:28 PM
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It is disheartening when other parts of the world show what seem to be even worse morality towards animals. We arent where we should be here (north america, europe, etc.) We have so many problems with animal abuse and neglect, I don;t understand how a developed nation can treat animals poorly. Humanity is not just between humans. Humanity and humane practices are how a human should strive to treat and respect all other organisms. Hell - not even just organisms. We are already seeing the consequences of treating our air and water like garbage.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Do you know how they kill the cows all over the world? For god's sake, they torture the animal, yet, don't you eat meat?
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Old December 31st, 2011, 12:50 PM
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Do you know how they kill the cows all over the world? For god's sake, they torture the animal, yet, don't you eat meat?
Many humans do not eat meat, and it is becoming both more affordable, healthy and convenient as science helps agriculture and diet.

Cows arent endangered. Would you eat a Cheetah?
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Old December 31st, 2011, 02:41 PM
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Do you know how they kill the cows all over the world? For god's sake, they torture the animal, yet, don't you eat meat?
Actually I'm a vegetarian. And this still doesn't justify what they're doing. Killing of animals humanely is one thing, but, the killing of endangered animals should be stopped. To make it worse, they're hunting in an Arctic sanctuary.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 02:55 PM
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What they are doing is wrong. I seriously do not believe they need to kill whales or are killing whales for "research". Whales are still endangered animals but I guess they really dont care about that. Theres absolutely no reason why they need to continue whaling if so few people really do eat whale meat. I really wish humans had more sympathy for animals. Theres so much needless killing,it makes me sad.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 02:59 PM
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Cows arent endangered. Would you eat a Cheetah?
It doesn't matter if the animal is endangered or not. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. All animals (including humans) should be equal.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 04:27 PM
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It doesn't matter if the animal is endangered or not. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. All animals (including humans) should be equal.
I don't really agree. Just to be technical here (cause I'm not that big of a fan of meat, but just for the sake of the thread), the only reason that I'm probably not eating a whale sandwich is because they are as endangered as they are. If there would be "too many" whales, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The reason why I have a problem with people eating animals that are endangered is, well because they are endangered lol. Like I said I'm just being technical and objective here, so it's not like I would but yeah.

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Do you know how they kill the cows all over the world? For god's sake, they torture the animal, yet, don't you eat meat?
And I agree with this, and like I said before I think the reason that people don't care for this is that cows are not endangered and whales are - and no I'm not justifying this reason I'm just pointing it out as that's probably the reason, even though it seems shallow. Of course this doesn't go for all people and not all cows are tortured like that but just speaking in general.

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Old December 31st, 2011, 06:26 PM
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To be honest, eating whale meat is one of the things on my bucket list. I hope to one day in the near future get a whale burger or something.

Why? Because animals are animals, and meat is delicious.

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Originally Posted by Trance and Moss View Post
Many humans do not eat meat, and it is becoming both more affordable, healthy and convenient as science helps agriculture and diet.

Cows arent endangered. Would you eat a Cheetah?
Humanity only evolved to this point because we were eating meat. Here's an article about it, though it's from 1999.

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BERKELEY-- Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods, according to a physical anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley.

It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.

Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton.
To go backwards on that seems just retarded.

And yes, I would eat a Cheetah, for the sake of it. Reason why no one ever really does is just because catching them isn't worth the trouble

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It doesn't matter if the animal is endangered or not. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. All animals (including humans) should be equal.
Why? Why are animals equal to humans at all?

Humans are superior to animals, and while yes, we do have a duty to look after them, we shouldn't avert ourselves from eating them. Though at the same time, if the animals cannot adapt, what right do they have to survive as a species? Why should we prolong the survival of another species - do you think whales give a crap about humans?

Also, international law is a joke precisely because no one can enforce it. In addition, it infringes upon the sovereignty of nations, something I hold to be of much greater importance than a couple of animals.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 12:19 PM
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Whaling in the antartic sanctuary is...can't we even keep one peace of the world free from ourselves? The world's oceans are dying off as it is already, death zones are appearing and or growing.we've also killed most of the vital animals and possibly even plant life necessary to keep the food web from collapsing...The world needs to grow a back bone and stop Japan from doing killing more dolphins and whales for what to me seems to be more for sport or profit than for culture.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 12:19 PM
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I don't really agree. Just to be technical here (cause I'm not that big of a fan of meat, but just for the sake of the thread), the only reason that I'm probably not eating a whale sandwich is because they are as endangered as they are. If there would be "too many" whales, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The reason why I have a problem with people eating animals that are endangered is, well because they are endangered lol. Like I said I'm just being technical and objective here, so it's not like I would but yeah.

I understand you point and all, but, let me say this. There are too many humans. I honestly don't think the earth was made to hold this many of us, mainly because of how destructive we are.

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Why? Why are animals equal to humans at all?

Humans are superior to animals, and while yes, we do have a duty to look after them, we shouldn't avert ourselves from eating them. Though at the same time, if the animals cannot adapt, what right do they have to survive as a species? Why should we prolong the survival of another species - do you think whales give a crap about humans?

Also, international law is a joke precisely because no one can enforce it. In addition, it infringes upon the sovereignty of nations, something I hold to be of much greater importance than a couple of animals.
Why aren't we equal? Why?

Why are humans supposedly 'superior'? Just because we're smarter? Just because we build weapons that can protect ourselves and harm others? Humans aren't beneficial to the environment at all, while whales and most of all the other animal species are. In a sense, no wait, in reality, we are destroying the environment.

Couple of animals? These animals have been around much longer than we have and it brings me back to my main point, we play no part in helping the earth, only destroying it, while they maintain their own niche in the ecosystem.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 12:24 PM
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I agree with charzard, we humans take more from the earth than we give back to it. By killing of whales humans will end up shooting themselves in the foot along with a whole chunk of the world's life...
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 04:53 PM
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I understand you point and all, but, let me say this. There are too many humans. I honestly don't think the earth was made to hold this many of us, mainly because of how destructive we are.

Why aren't we equal? Why?

Why are humans supposedly 'superior'? Just because we're smarter? Just because we build weapons that can protect ourselves and harm others? Humans aren't beneficial to the environment at all, while whales and most of all the other animal species are. In a sense, no wait, in reality, we are destroying the environment.

Couple of animals? These animals have been around much longer than we have and it brings me back to my main point, we play no part in helping the earth, only destroying it, while they maintain their own niche in the ecosystem.
If you think there are too many humans on earth, then why do you continue to allow yourself to exist? You think it'd be better with less humans, right?

Yes, for those reasons and more. We have completely dominated the entire earth, and one day, the solar system, and then even further. If humans are so bad, why are you still alive? That seems very hypocritical of you.

Millions upon millions of species have gone extinct. It's not really a big deal - the Earth will keep on spinning regardless of what happens. If a species can't adapt to changes, it has no right to continue existing.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 04:58 PM
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If you think there are too many humans on earth, then why do you continue to allow yourself to exist? You think it'd be better with less humans, right?

Yes, for those reasons and more. We have completely dominated the entire earth, and one day, the solar system, and then even further. If humans are so bad, why are you still alive? That seems very hypocritical of you.

Millions upon millions of species have gone extinct. It's not really a big deal - the Earth will keep on spinning regardless of what happens. If a species can't adapt to changes, it has no right to continue existing.
Even tho I know that my life is not beneficial to the earth, I can at least try to help. Joining wildlife conservationists, donating money to start up and fund national parks are some things I can do that most people don't.

No species can adapt to poaching/hunting. How are they going to adapt to humans? Grow steel armor to protect themselves from bullets and harpoons? Not happening. It takes thousands of years to adapt to changes, yet they don't have the time to. By your logic of adapting, there wouldn't be any animals left.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 05:40 PM
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this is really sad, but honestly i feel like the saddest part is that it's part of a long line of somewhat inescapable brutality. like a poster mentioned above, there are many animals that are being harmed and there is nothing, including species, that justifies that. however, what can one expect in a world where humans kill and torture members of their OWN species?

everyone in the world is harming animals, whether actively, or passively. what i mean by this is for every animal that's being harmed, are a lot of people who aren't and in most cases can't, do anything about it.

animal cruelty as a WHOLE won't ever end until humans learn to stop being cruel, period. and sadly, i don't see that happening any time soon.

but i'm not a compete pessimist. if you have the ability to save one, would you turn it down because you couldn't save all of them? of course not! (well at least i hope not...). i think if those who do have the will and ability to do something about it actually step up... y'know. we might not save the world but it's spreading awareness so a lot more people want to save the world also.

also, the point isn't survival of the fittest, nor is it a choice between animals or humans. it's the cessation of UNNATURAL torture/cruelty and forced death, regardless of race or species.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 05:40 PM
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Even tho I know that my life is not beneficial to the earth, I can at least try to help. Joining wildlife conservationists, donating money to start up and fund national parks are some things I can do that most people don't.

No species can adapt to poaching/hunting. How are they going to adapt to humans? Grow steel armor to protect themselves from bullets and harpoons? Not happening. It takes thousands of years to adapt to changes, yet they don't have the time to. By your logic of adapting, there wouldn't be any animals left.
You'd help more if you stopped breathing, or maybe went on a rampage.

Get smaller and faster? In any case, it all balances itself out in the end. The ecological system is in constant flux, always changing, never static. If something becomes unbalanced, it will eventually rectify itself.

Or are you going to oppose nature?
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 05:43 PM
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You'd help more if you stopped breathing, or maybe went on a rampage.

Get smaller and faster? In any case, it all balances itself out in the end. The ecological system is in constant flux, always changing, never static. If something becomes unbalanced, it will eventually rectify itself.

Or are you going to oppose nature?
That's debatable.

That's impossible, think more logically. It's taken crocodiles millions of years to shrink from fifty feet to twenty feet as they are right now. Rectify itself? How? I'd like to see that happen. That won't happen. A new species popping up out of no where?

How would I oppose nature? Well, in a sense, we, as humans, are opposing nature as it is.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 05:55 PM
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That's debatable.

That's impossible, think more logically. It's taken crocodiles millions of years to shrink from fifty feet to twenty feet as they are right now. Rectify itself? How? I'd like to see that happen. That won't happen. A new species popping up out of no where?

How would I oppose nature? Well, in a sense, we, as humans, are opposing nature as it is.
How so? Your problem is too many humans on the planet. Saving animals doesn't fix that at all.

Because disruptions in one part of the food web lead to problems elsewhere, and impact upon all parts of it. Lets say the population of a species grew too large and thus over consumed its food source, reducing its numbers. What would happen then with the reduced availability of food? The population of the first species would decrease as it could no longer survive. That's how things will rectify themselves.

As I said earlier though, if a species dies out, then so what? It has no right to live if it cannot ensure its own survival. That's what I mean by going against nature - because by protecting the inferior members of a species we are only weakening it in the end.

Unless you are suggesting that the animals do need our protection to survive, which then means once again you are being hypocritical, since earlier you said all animals, including humans, are equal.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 06:05 PM
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Naruto Uzumaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amachi View Post
How so? Your problem is too many humans on the planet. Saving animals doesn't fix that at all.

Because disruptions in one part of the food web lead to problems elsewhere, and impact upon all parts of it. Lets say the population of a species grew too large and thus over consumed its food source, reducing its numbers. What would happen then with the reduced availability of food? The population of the first species would decrease as it could no longer survive. That's how things will rectify themselves.

As I said earlier though, if a species dies out, then so what? It has no right to live if it cannot ensure its own survival. That's what I mean by going against nature - because by protecting the inferior members of a species we are only weakening it in the end.

Unless you are suggesting that the animals do need our protection to survive, which then means once again you are being hypocritical, since earlier you said all animals, including humans, are equal.
That's true.

That's not always the case. As in what's happening right now. It's not just whales being over hunted, it's fish as well. Over hunting of those two key species will ruin the food chain, or even destroying the ecosystem. Unless you think destroying the ecosystem is 'rectifying' it of course.

Animals weren't made to protect themselves against humans. It's not natural. Weakening it? They've been thriving for millions of years. Even the hardiest species fall because of humans. The natural way will rectify itself, but, humans aren't doing it the natural way. It doesn't work like that.

Because of us, yes they do. What I meant, is we need to protect the animals from humans. Even if all our lives are equal doesn't mean the it'll justify itself. We already wiped out countless species as it is and put many more on the endangered list. Just because they're considered equal, doesn't mean they won't need our help. We're the ones that hurt them, so in turn, we'll need to help them.
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