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Fifth Generation Are Pokémon slaves to humans? Team Plasma thinks so. Travel the Unova region and prove them wrong in Black & White, and then return two years later in Black2 & White2.


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  #1    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:01 PM
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Ended up sparking a debate thanks to a new item for B2W2 that has some messed up questions comin up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderO
I wanna point to one particular item...

Quote:
DNA Link Pin: A pair of linking pins to combine Kyurem and a Pokemon which were said to originally be one.
TROLLED AGAIN BY GAMEFREAK. Bolded part "A Pokemon which were said to originally be one." This refers to Zekrom/Reshiram. Why do I say we were trolled again? Because this description says that Kyurem is not directly related to Reshiram or Zekrom. Kyurem wasn't part of the "Original Dragon". Kyurem itself isn't related to Reshiram and Zekrom. Its able to fuse with them because of Akuroma's invention. WTF GAMEFREAK?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRAS
@Xander I think the 'Used to be one part is refering to Kyurem itself and the dragon in your version having been one before so no it's not really trolling. In a way it's confirming that they were once one. If the original Dragon was only Zek and Resh it Proably would've said some like: ' Merges Kyurem with one of the two dragons that made up the dragon of legend' or something along those lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderO
It would have been worded differently if so though. Its specifically referencing Zekrom and Reshiram. A Pokemon (plural) which were said (legend/myth/story) to originally be one. If kyurem were to be included the Item description would read Kyurem and one other Pokemon that was said to be originally one.

We DO have to wait for TPCi to give us a Localized version of this description, but as it is now, the description doesn't include Kyurem in the second half.

The DNA Pin specifically Fuses Kyurem and Zekrom or Kyurem and Reshiram.

Ya its one of those "Insert Proper Noun here" type of things. Bolded the Dragons names to compare. Canon wise Reshiram and Zekrom are the only two Pokemon "said to be originally one."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deku
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderO View Post
It would have been worded differently if so though. Its specifically referencing Zekrom and Reshiram. A Pokemon (plural) which were said (legend/myth/story) to originally be one. If kyurem were to be included the Item description would read Kyurem and one other Pokemon that was said to be originally one.

We DO have to wait for TPCi to give us a Localized version of this description, but as it is now, the description doesn't include Kyurem in the second half.

The DNA Pin specifically Fuses Kyurem and Zekrom or Kyurem and Reshiram.

Ya its one of those "Insert Proper Noun here" type of things. Bolded the Dragons names to compare. Canon wise Reshiram and Zekrom are the only two Pokemon "said to be originally one."
Quote:
DNA Link Pin: A pair of linking pins to combine Kyurem and a Pokemon which were said to originally be one.
Actually, if the Pokemon in the description of the DNA Link Pin was plural, there would be no 'a' in front of the word. The only reason 'a Pokemon' is used is so that the description works for both versions. Just simply plug in 'Zekrom' or 'Reshiram' and the sentence will make more sense. "A pair of linking pins to combine Kyurem and Zekrom which were said to originally be one." The 'were' refers back to Kyurem and Zekrom being one.

I'm sure that this will clear up once we know the official English translation, but I had to point out the grammatical error in your post xD
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderO
Quote:
Originally Posted by deku View Post
Actually, if the Pokemon in the description of the DNA Link Pin was plural, there would be no 'a' in front of the word. The only reason 'a Pokemon' is used is so that the description works for both versions. Just simply plug in 'Zekrom' or 'Reshiram' and the sentence will make more sense. "A pair of linking pins to combine Kyurem and Zekrom which were said to originally be one." The 'were' refers back to Kyurem and Zekrom being one.

I'm sure that this will clear up once we know the official English translation, but I had to point out the grammatical error in your post xD
My English Major friends say it can be either or depending on how you read it. My way of reading it was correct and so was your's.

Since the second half has two targeted names if you replace with one name then your way is read correctly, but if you combine the entirety of the second half, my way was correct.

It really comes down to the definition of "a" which I looked up and has double meanings in this case as well. Pokemon itself is a Plural Pronoun constantly referring to more than one species. In which case you could read the second passage as One of this species which were said to be originally one.

Were is also an issue since its a Plural and can be for Kyurem and "a Pokemon" or "a Pokemon" by itself.

Gamefreak need to learn Commas x_x English is self destructive enough.

Also gunna separate part of this convo into its own thread to be discussed.


So ya an issue with translation and translating the English Translation....Right now its an issue on how you read the post and how much of the English Language you know.

What do ya think is up with this? Is Gamefreak trolling us with this item with Kyurem's relation to the Dragon Duo?
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  #2    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:13 PM
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Wow I wasn't aware of the 'a' being able to be used that way...
Anyways I see the DNA item as a forced remerging of the Pokemon. Proably because the Pokemon have been seperated for so long they've become seperate beings on their own.

Perhaps this can all be cleared up by Drayden. He explains about the Dragons so perhaps it was revised to add Kyurem. If it's the same as BW than you're right Kyurem proably isn't part of the original dragon.
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  #3    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:28 PM
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I had to describe how Kyurem transformed into its Black and White form and he said..."So its like Majinn buu when he turns people into Candy? Why'd they stop with just Zekrom and Reshiram then?"

That's litterally how Kyurem transforms though. The DNA Link Pin turns Zekrom/Reshiram back into their Stone orbs and Kyurem eats them and becomes Black Kyurem or White Kyurem.

Its almost as if this item didn't existed would this still be possible?

I can see why they made it to specifically target Zekrom/Reshiram since those two had the power to warp reality into what the owner apparently wanted (or at least that was what was hinted to by N.)

Kyurem was being used to freeze the world by Ghetsis absorbing his power for his guns, and it he fused Kyurem with one of the two dragons then their power would theoretically be passed into Kyurem and Ghetsis could remake the world as he wanted.
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  #4    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:34 PM
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Black candy and White Candy haha. Though come to think about it Corocoro kind of trolled us with the secret of Kyurem's ice...oh right that's the anime...they should've followed the games canon closer.
Wonder why Kyurem though. They could've picked Genosect, or one of the other legends. I still think there's a relation. Hope someone translates Drayden's explaination of the dragon myth to clear this up.
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  #5    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post
Hope someone translates Drayden's explaination of the dragon myth to clear this up.
We'd need both the item and the story Localized again.

I'm still curious as to what others think about this item and the relation of the three Dragons because of it.
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  #6    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:49 PM
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Haha you are making this too smart i have the same problem :D

It said

DNA Link Pin A pair of linking pins to combine Kyurem and a Pokemon which were said to originally be one. 


Combine Kyurem and a pokemon- means combining Kyurem and ONE Pokemon either reshiram or zekrom, if it were two then like MRAS said it would be " Kyurem and Pokemon that were"

Which were said- this is when Gamefreak trolled us(so proud of them:D) the "which were" states that the legends of the dragons Reshiram and Zekrom to "originally be one" is false nowadays because were is past tense of "to be" and the infinitive SAID is after it

To originally be one- the legend is that the brothers split the original dragon into two seperate dragons the DNA link states that the pokemon werent one

It could be in the sequels that the legend was proved wrong its very possible and also
kyurem has Nothing to do with the original dragonbecause Kyurem is said to come from a large meteorite from outor space in modern times not ancient times
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  #7    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:57 PM
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Right forgot about Kyurem's supposed origins. But someone has to wonder how or why Ghetsis chose Kyurem for his plans. Why chose the cracked dragon? I wonder if perhaps his plan was to recreate the original dragon by using Kyurem as a host (thankfully the old Rp was missing).
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  #8    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 08:17 PM
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lmao it not like buu saga more like cell saga.
i am kyrurem=cell
i need the black and white stones = android 17 and 18
to become the ultimate being
lmao
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  #9    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post
Right forgot about Kyurem's supposed origins. But someone has to wonder how or why Ghetsis chose Kyurem for his plans. Why chose the cracked dragon? I wonder if perhaps his plan was to recreate the original dragon by using Kyurem as a host (thankfully the old Rp was missing).
In this screenshot

Ghetsis is seen holding a item it looks similar to this
Link

That item is stated to awaken a mysterious power i remember reading somewhere that said that Kyurem was a space leech( referencing his pupiless eyes and broken power) maybe kyurem's mysterious power is to fuse and become a parasite to a pokemon


You all and I are doing intelligent work while school is out >~< despicable
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The Aquarius loves a party. Anytime, anywhere is their motto. It is not unlikely that an Aquarius will consider a wake a good place to meet chicks. Aquarians love to be naked. It is even better if they are naked and crocked. Froot Loops is a very Aquarian cereal. So is Rice Krispies, since it will engage in a friendly chat with the Aquarian as he or she is eating breakfast. Count Chocula is off-limits, however. It belongs to the Scorpios. Aquarians use the phrase "Dude, man..." frequently when describing philosophical concepts. Aquarians have out-of-body experiences on a daily basis. If you are talking to an Aquarian and he or she zones out, consider the conversation hopeless. He or she is talking to the guy three feet away from you. Aquarians are fun because they channel people. Plus, if you tell them to, they will run around naked. Aquarians like astronomy because they've been to all those places. If you want to know what the food is like on Saturn, ask an Aquarius. Aquarians can allow themselves every possible vice on the planet, and don't think twice about it. That is why they piss everyone else off. They are cosmically entitled to do this.
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  #10    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fayt666 View Post
lmao it not like buu saga more like cell saga.
i am kyrurem=cell
i need the black and white stones = android 17 and 18
to become the ultimate being
lmao
I have to agree with you there...also Kyurem had the whole devouring humans and Pokemon for substinance. N dragon is 17 and players dragon is 18. Hmm guess the original dragon must have been a bishonen xD jk.

Well Kyurem represents Wuji according to theory on our part. It absorbs Yin or Yang to becoming half Yin/Yang and half Wuji as can be seen in it's half ice and half other dragon apperance.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post


I have to agree with you there...also Kyurem had the whole devouring humans and Pokemon for substinance. N dragon is 17 and players dragon is 18. Hmm guess the original dragon must have been a bishonen xD jk.

Well Kyurem represents Wuji according to theory on our part. It absorbs Yin or Yang to becoming half Yin/Yang and half Wuji as can be seen in it's half ice and half other dragon apperance.
Wuji is nothing...if Wuji absorbed either Yin or Yang it would then be filled with just Yin or just Yang with nothing to balance it out. Can't cut nothing in half.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post


I have to agree with you there...also Kyurem had the whole devouring humans and Pokemon for substinance. N dragon is 17 and players dragon is 18. Hmm guess the original dragon must have been a bishonen xD jk.

Well Kyurem represents Wuji according to theory on our part. It absorbs Yin or Yang to becoming half Yin/Yang and half Wuji as can be seen in it's half ice and half other dragon apperance.
I dont know what you all are talking about(im such a noob XD)

MRAS ha i just said the secOnd part a post up. Kyurem is a space leech
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The Aquarius loves a party. Anytime, anywhere is their motto. It is not unlikely that an Aquarius will consider a wake a good place to meet chicks. Aquarians love to be naked. It is even better if they are naked and crocked. Froot Loops is a very Aquarian cereal. So is Rice Krispies, since it will engage in a friendly chat with the Aquarian as he or she is eating breakfast. Count Chocula is off-limits, however. It belongs to the Scorpios. Aquarians use the phrase "Dude, man..." frequently when describing philosophical concepts. Aquarians have out-of-body experiences on a daily basis. If you are talking to an Aquarian and he or she zones out, consider the conversation hopeless. He or she is talking to the guy three feet away from you. Aquarians are fun because they channel people. Plus, if you tell them to, they will run around naked. Aquarians like astronomy because they've been to all those places. If you want to know what the food is like on Saturn, ask an Aquarius. Aquarians can allow themselves every possible vice on the planet, and don't think twice about it. That is why they piss everyone else off. They are cosmically entitled to do this.
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  #13    
Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by XanderO View Post
Wuji is nothing...if Wuji absorbed either Yin or Yang it would then be filled with just Yin or just Yang with nothing to balance it out. Can't cut nothing in half.
Come to think about it the Wuji of Kyurem becomes Yang to the Yin Dragon ,and Yin to the Yang dragon. I researched Wuji earlier in the year and found out Wuji can turn into either Yin or Yang if it's balance things out.
Also this is kind of off topic but Kyurem's wing tips sort of resemble tubes which is proably how Kyurem stores the energy within it.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:27 PM
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See, I always thought that Kyurem was the body. The dragon came from the outer worlds, and crashed into Earth. From this, it was wounded, causing it to split open, trying to spare itself by creating two souls from its body, Zekrom and Reshiram. I thought that the restless spirit of the former beast had possessed the remaining corpse, trying to return itself to its former glory by devouring other lives. once realizing its plan was not making any difference, it stopped and waited for centuries.

Kyurem being Wuji may also suggest it was once something, and by expelling both Yin and Yang, it became Wuji (nothing).

But with all of this information, I don't even know anymore! DDD:
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Old June 24th, 2012, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellicent♀ View Post
See, I always thought that Kyurem was the body. The dragon came from the outer worlds, and crashed into Earth. From this, it was wounded, causing it to split open, trying to spare itself by creating two souls from its body, Zekrom and Reshiram. I thought that the restless spirit of the former beast had possessed the remaining corpse, trying to return itself to its former glory by devouring other lives. once realizing its plan was not making any difference, it stopped and waited for centuries.
I agree with this part because it resembles theory from Taoism about wuji splitting into yin and yang from this page: http://internalarts.typepad.com/ken_...f-tai-chi.html
Looking at this theory, original dragon is the counterpart of state before things separated into yin and yang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderO View Post
Wuji is nothing...if Wuji absorbed either Yin or Yang it would then be filled with just Yin or just Yang with nothing to balance it out. Can't cut nothing in half.
Quote from page I linked:
Quote:
In Tai Chi, the goal is to maintain a sort of wuji -- balance and harmony; to remain centered. When someone attacks, and you must adapt and change to accept this person's force, your goal is to return to wuji -- the state of balance you were in before the attack.
You have to remember that wuji doesn't only mean nothing. It also means balance. That's why new Kyurem forms are partially wuji (ice) because they are balanced between being wuji and yin/yang.

Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram are related, the same like wuji is related to yin/yang. If they weren't related their fusion would be impossible. Achroma's invention of fusing Kyurem with Zekrom/Reshiram is an attempt to restore power of original dragon. That attempt is only partial success because it fuses Kyurem only with Zekrom or Reshiram, not two at once.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombateiro View Post
You have to remember that wuji doesn't only mean nothing. It also means balance. That's why new Kyurem forms are partially wuji (ice) because they are balanced between being wuji and yin/yang.

Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram are related, the same like wuji is related to yin/yang. If they weren't related their fusion would be impossible. Achroma's invention of fusing Kyurem with Zekrom/Reshiram is an attempt to restore power of original dragon. That attempt is only partial success because it fuses Kyurem only with Zekrom or Reshiram, not two at once.
Um no. Harmony and Balance cannot be achieved without both Yin and Yang in perfect balance. Kyurem represents a Void not balance. If it absorbs all of Yin, there is nothing but Yin filling it up with nothing to balance it. If Kyurem represented Balance then he would not have been able to absorb Yin or Yang (Reshiram or Zekrom) Because he was already in perfect balance having both Yin and Yang already equally.

If he wanted the Original Dragon they would have tried to fuse Zekrom and Reshiram as they are both half of the original dragon according to the only Canon story so far.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 01:27 PM
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If I understand correctly, I think that the three dragons were all one once. When we combine them, the dragon is still half Zekrom/Reshiram and half Kyurem, and it looks like kind of an odd mix between the two, so maybe it's not the complete "Original Dragon"? Idk

I don't really know what to think about this so I think I'll just have to wait for the English release to get the answers, lol
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Old June 24th, 2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by XanderO View Post
Um no. Harmony and Balance cannot be achieved without both Yin and Yang in perfect balance. Kyurem represents a Void not balance. If it absorbs all of Yin, there is nothing but Yin filling it up with nothing to balance it. If Kyurem represented Balance then he would not have been able to absorb Yin or Yang (Reshiram or Zekrom) Because he was already in perfect balance having both Yin and Yang already equally.

If he wanted the Original Dragon they would have tried to fuse Zekrom and Reshiram as they are both half of the original dragon according to the only Canon story so far.
Achroma's invention gives Kyurem ability to convert Zekrom/Reshiram into Dark/Light stone and then fuse with one of them. He could try to fuse them both at once, but that was impossible because of storyline reasons. In storyline, only either Zekrom or Reshiram is nearby when Kyurem is ready to convert Zekrom/Reshiram into stone.

Fusion of Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram turned out very well without any scientific researches did on Zekrom/Reshiram. That only proves they have similar DNAs, therefore they are related.

Also, Kyurem represents both void and balance because those two things have close meanings in Taoism. When Kyurem is in regular form, it's balanced, because it equally lacks of yin and yang. New forms are something in the middle - they aren't completely wuji, nor yin/yang. They are centered between being wuji and yin/yang.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 01:44 PM
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Ghetsis I beleive wanted the original dragon restored so he was going to try to get Reshiram/Zekrom from the player but since his plan failed he chose to have Kyurem the third and weaker piece take N's dragon and absorb it. He proably would've perfered using the stronger two thirds but who knows. Also perhaps this is a everything returns to nothingness kind of thing in which the dragons were forced to return to where they came aka Kyurem.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombateiro View Post
Achroma's invention gives Kyurem ability to convert Zekrom/Reshiram into Dark/Light stone and then fuse with one of them. He could try to fuse them both at once, but that was impossible because of storyline reasons. In storyline, only either Zekrom or Reshiram is nearby when Kyurem is ready to convert Zekrom/Reshiram into stone.

Fusion of Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram turned out very well without any scientific researches did on Zekrom/Reshiram. That only proves they have similar DNAs, therefore they are related.

Also, Kyurem represents both void and balance because those two things have close meanings in Taoism. When Kyurem is in regular form, it's balanced, because it equally lacks of yin and yang. New forms are something in the middle - they aren't completely wuji, nor yin/yang. They are centered between being wuji and yin/yang.
How do you know if they studied Zekrom/Reshiram before? There was a massive gap between when N got Zekrom/Reshiram not to mention all of the studying and research they did before the story to find and awaken Zekrom/Reshiram in Black and White.

They used Kyurem because he had immeasurable power. They had 2 years worth of time to do proper research on Kyurem as well as compile notes and tests for the DNA Pins which obviously work as they were able to do what they wanted. You can't plan that without proper testing.

Ghetsis even states that his goals were simply to rule the world and he planned to do so by using Kyurem to freeze the world, which he was about to do until a Dragon of Legend stops him.

And How can you say they have similar DNA? Ditto can Transform into everything even become nearly complete copies and is made up of just DNA and is able to replicate DNA of other Pokemon which is why it can breed with almost everything. By the very same logic Ditto is related to everything, so all Trios are Quartets and Duos are Trios.

You can fuse two separate strands of DNA into a new creature, which is what they do with Kyurem.

Achroma is still the only reason they can fuse in the first place. Without his invention they can't fuse at all.

As for Balance and Void...No they do NOT have the same meaning. They are opposites in Taoism. Void is absolutely nothing. No existence at all. The concept of Taoism is to Fill the Void with Yin and Yang to create Balance. There is no Balance in Void itself as there is nothing in Void. Balance doesn't exist without equal parts of Yin and Yang which make up life itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magmaruby and Aquasapphire View Post
Ghetsis I beleive wanted the original dragon restored so he was going to try to get Reshiram/Zekrom from the player but since his plan failed he chose to have Kyurem the third and weaker piece take N's dragon and absorb it. He proably would've perfered using the stronger two thirds but who knows. Also perhaps this is a everything returns to nothingness kind of thing in which the dragons were forced to return to where they came aka Kyurem.
He was going to Freeze the world using Kyurem in the Giant Chasm where it had immeasurable power. The site that Kyurem fell in its Meteor and where its legend began. He was still going to use Kyurem's power to freeze and conquer the world after the fusion.

Their new plan was simply to freeze Unova abusing Kyurem's power and limitless energy. Which is what upset N.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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I really doubt N would have let Ghetsis close enough to the dragon to experiment on it... remember that he stopped work on Genosect due to his views. He also proably didn't let it out of it's sites.
Also in a philosophical view which is what Taoism is a philosphy, nothingness (Wuji)is peace hence why people clear their minds of all thoughts to obtain peace and balance. The chinese had a very different view of nothingness than we do today.
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  #22    
Old June 24th, 2012, 05:34 PM
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Clear minds and peace are brought about by balancing out your thoughts by dispelling negative thoughts to the void. They expel extra Yin or Yang from their mind/body to create a balance within. Meditation is something that has been the same through different religious practices. Void would be everything outside of the body in this instance and you'd expel all your extra crud to create inner peace.


As for N and Ghetsis, N probably wouldn't have known back then. He was completely under Ghetsis' thumb. All Ghetsis would have to do was have his scientists watch and do tests from afar, energy tests to match signatures, all kinds of futuristic stuff that they can apparently do in the games.

And they still had 2 years worth of blind experimenting on Kyurem alone. Keep in mind, Team Rocket was able to alter Eevee's genetic code to be able to do some freaky evolutions. Not to mention the creation of Mewtwo. The evil teams are capable of some amazing scientific achievements.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM
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OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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Uh eevee was in Manga canon...and Mewtwo wasn't created by Team Rocket in games either, the anime added that...
Kyurem moveset and typing also fit into things. Also Kyurem supposed limitless energy is what Zekrom and Reshiram are also said to have, though Victini does too.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 06:26 PM
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They are both still a form a canon, one based on the games more so than the other. The point still, the evil teams have amazing technology. I mean...Plasma has a FLYING BOAT. Team Rocket, Teams Aqua and Magma, and Team Galactic had teleporter plates. Plasma made an Item capable of fusing two Pokemon together, not to mention devices that can revive the dead held outside of the evil teams, and healing Machines that cure illness and health in an instant.

They had plenty of time to do all the testing they wanted or needed. Right now the only thing that links Kyurem with Zekrom and Reshiram is the DNA Linking Pin.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 07:29 PM
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OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
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There must still be a relation. Even Suicune had one to Ho-oh. Perhaps the tao duo created it if it's not part of the original dragon...
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