[Discussion] The American Politics Discussion Thread

[Zet]

Originally Posted by Toujours

See this is where we come to what's right on a human level. To me, at the heart of things, it's just wrong for a person to have a history of an illness that they no longer have and be unable to get insurance without making massive sacrifices, when they are at no higher risk than anyone else. It's wrong for someone who is ill to age out of their parent's insurance and be unable to get any other insurance because of their illness. And it's wrong for people to have to go without healthcare because insurance is at a rate they can't afford while still surviving, and healthcare costs would drive them into debt.

In my mind, the right of a person not to spend an affordable amount on insurance (note that Obamacare gives coupons to people who are up to 400% of the poverty level to make sure that people who have to make choices between survival and insurance won't have to make that choice) does not trump the right of a person to decent medical care without having to make a choice between survival and medicine.

I don't care what the Constitution says on this. I don't care what dry laws don't account for human sympathy. I care what's right, and that's why, unless there's a viable alternative that is better than Obamacare, I will continue to support it.

Universal healthcare is the greatest thing in the world! But don't take my opinion; I'm just a dirty socialist communist who hates freedom.

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

The purpose of the Second Amendment is for the people to be able to overthrow the government, and handguns just don't cut it for that task.



We seem to have a disagreement on what a "right" is. I don't believe that people have a right to any goods or services.

So... treason? well it worked before for you guys, but unless you follow Donald Trump there probably won't ever be a reason to overthrow the government. Though there's also all sorts of ammo types for handguns, so you can do some serious damage... to people.


But you have the right to buy guns... isn't that goods/services?

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

how about the fact that their been more marijuana raids in the obama administration than bush's and republicain always state they are for the war on drugs

After Obama was re-elected, a few states legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage.

[KingCharizard]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

Everyone will, at some point in their life, need insurance.

And yes, their are companies that provide low cost insurance. However, these are also the companies that (without Obamacare) will drop you for no reason, other then to get out of paying when you get very very sick.

Am I the only one in this thread aware of medicare? Of Medical Assistance through welfare? If you are poor welfare is there, if you cannot afford insurance welfare is there.. With Obama care you still have to buy insurance...

[Rodriguezjames55]

Originally Posted by Zet

Universal healthcare is the greatest thing in the world! But don't take my opinion; I'm just a dirty socialist communist who hates freedom.


So... treason? well it worked before for you guys, but unless you follow Donald Trump there probably won't ever be a reason to overthrow the government. Though there's also all sorts of ammo types for handguns, so you can do some serious damage... to people.


But you have the right to buy guns... isn't that goods/services?




After Obama was re-elected, a few states legalized marijuana and same-sex marriage.

STATES not obama he has no control over that

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

Am I the only one in this thread aware of medicare? Of Medical Assistance through welfare? If you are poor welfare is there, if you cannot afford insurance welfare is there.. With Obama care you still have to buy insurance...

You can have enough money to not be on welfare but not enough to afford insurance. I am in that level; I'm in college and can't get a full-time job so I can't afford insurance of my own, and my mother's insurance goes up so much that she can't afford it if she puts me on it. So I can't afford insurance. The income that my mother and I live off of is just above the poverty level, so no one's paying for our insurance. In Obamacare, when all of the changes roll through, my mother and I will both get help in paying for insurance since we are close to the poverty level.

[KingCharizard]

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

STATES not obama he has no control over that

Yes on the federal level last i herd marijuana is still illegal... This is old news BTW

Originally Posted by Toujours

You can have enough money to not be on welfare but not enough to afford insurance. I am in that level; I'm in college and can't get a full-time job so I can't afford insurance of my own, and my mother's insurance goes up so much that she can't afford it if she puts me on it. So I can't afford insurance. The income that my mother and I live off of is just above the poverty level, so no one's paying for our insurance. In Obamacare, when all of the changes roll through, my mother and I will both get help in paying for insurance since we are close to the poverty level.

and where is this money coming from? Tax Payers? They should focus more on welfare, and try to fix it. you cannot have welfare and Obama Care because that is yet another thing were stuck paying for, we already have enough debt....

[Rodriguezjames55]

romney was terrible too he plans to fix the economy by adding debt to military

[Zet]

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

and there is insurance available to you, and anyone else who needs it.. but forcing Americans to purchase insurance if they dont need or want it is just wrong..

Thats the part most people are missing, there is plenty of insurance companies out there right now that offer low cost insurance and normal insurance for those that need to be covered....

And the video of George Carlin, he is right, it doesn't matter.... I've said that in this thread about 4 or more times now, as long as people are spoiled they will continue to be ignorant to the truth.. but now that people are losing things their eyes are starting to be opened, but it wont help, I feel its already too late...

You're right, what were people thinking?! They can just walk off the deadly deadly sickness and die instead of going to see a Doctor. :D

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

Am I the only one in this thread aware of medicare? Of Medical Assistance through welfare? If you are poor welfare is there, if you cannot afford insurance welfare is there.. With Obama care you still have to buy insurance...

-snip- Toujours provided lovely research in the post below me

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

and where is this money coming from? Tax Payers? They should focus more on welfare, and try to fix it. you cannot have welfare and Obama Care because that is yet another thing were stuck paying for, we already have enough debt....

Research is hard you guys

When enacted, health reform is completely paid for and will reduce the deficit by more than one hundred billion dollars in the next ten years.

This is the text directly from the act, that was passed. If this was false, it would not have been passed, it would have been amended. Feel free to read through (under Title IX) and see the individual things they will change to afford it.

Edit: There will always be the people just above welfare that will not be able to afford insurance, no matter what you do to welfare. It's the insurance industry that needs reform. Although I'm sure welfare needs reform as well in ways, it has nothing to do with insurance.

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

and where is this money coming from? Tax Payers? They should focus more on welfare, and try to fix it. you cannot have welfare and Obama Care because that is yet another thing were stuck paying for, we already have enough debt....

How are you paying for Obama Care? It isn't universal healthcare. It isn't a public option.

You're buying private insurance. What's the government or your taxes paying for with it?

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Zet

But you have the right to buy guns... isn't that goods/services?

We also have always had the right to buy health insurance in this country. A lot of people in this thread think that health insurance should be provided to people as a right. If that is the definition of what a "right" is, where do I get my free gun?

[droomph]

Well, you do pay a fine for every year you don't have health insurance, but you should definitely have health insurance, if not to let the majority have what they want.

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

how about the fact that their been more marijuana raids in the obama administration than bush's and republicain always state they are for the war on drugs

facts, please.

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

We also have always had the right to buy health insurance in this country. A lot of people in this thread think that health insurance should be provided to people as a right. If that is the definition of what a "right" is, where do I get my free gun?

For the record, you don't get free health insurance. You have to pay for it. But the requirement is for the insurance industry to not gouge people, but people will take advantage of that.

As was said:

Originally Posted by Toujours

The problem with insurance is that forcing people to have insurance is a reaction, not an action. The action to begin with was to force insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions without gouging them every month. Before this, a person who had a medical issue before they could walk may be denied insurance for the rest of their life, and if they find someone who would give it to them, they would be forced to pay exponentially more than another person, whether or not they're even ill anymore, because the insurance companies don't want to take on the liability. The point was to make insurance equal for every person.

But then it causes the problem of people gaming the system. If pre-existing conditions were never taken into consideration with insurance, then no one would ever need to get insurance until they got sick. They could get ill, then start paying for insurance, then drop it once they get better, over and over. This would end in insurance companies tanking because that's not how insurance is supposed to work. So the forcing of insurance is a reaction to allowing people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance, so people won't wait until they're sick to get insurance and drop it once they're well.

[droomph]

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

you can google things too you know
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...n-pot-20120216

That's not the point. Back up your facts with evidence. Scientific papers don't come up with, "Hey, the Planck's constant is 40. Go google it, lazy bum."

And I don't believe that the Rolling Stone is a reliable source. Something tells me a music magazine isn't the prime source of information.

[Rodriguezjames55]

ok
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...cal-marijuana/
we know fox is unreliable so
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...r-on-weed.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/18...e-party-pooper

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by droomph

For the record, you don't get free health insurance. You have to pay for it. But the requirement is for the insurance industry to not gouge people, but people will take advantage of that.

The problem with our health care system isn't how health insurance is delivered, but the fact that we are an unhealthy society. Americans consume larger amounts of junk food than, and exercise less than, nations that have universal health care. This is why universal health care will not work in the United States. While doctors are in the business of helping us stay healthy, the ultimate responsibility for our health lies with us to lead healthy lifestyles.

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

The problem with our health care system isn't how health insurance is delivered, but the fact that we are an unhealthy society. Americans consume larger amounts of junk food than, and exercise less than, nations that have universal health care. This is why universal health care will not work in the United States. While doctors are in the business of helping us stay healthy, the ultimate responsibility for our health lies with us to lead healthy lifestyles.

But don't you believe that we should be free to live whatever lifestyles we want? Isn't that the libertarian way? Besides, England's rate of obesity is near ours and they have universal healthcare.

[KingCharizard]

Originally Posted by Zet

You're right, what were people thinking?! They can just walk off the deadly deadly sickness and die instead of going to see a Doctor. :D

Where exactly did I say that hoesntly your just defecting my point with failed sarcasm, so I will try to nsil my point into your thick skill again.

If people need to see a doctor there is insurance, if they don't want to see a doctor that is their choice. I dont like hospitals so I dont go, if I get sick and I die I die, that is my choice. I refuse to pay for something I dont want or need. Everyone else can get insurance, goto the doctor hell for all I care they can see the pope for prayers I dont care. They point is if they want to see a doctor they can, if they dont they dont have to...

if you are arguing you cannot afford the insurance because your poor, then do something about that. I grew u poor I went to school worked hard now I live a comfortable life, not rich or anything but I meet my expenses with some left to splurge

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by KingCharizard

Where exactly did I say that hoesntly your just defecting my point with failed sarcasm, so I will try to nsil my point into your thick skill again.

If people need to see a doctor their is insurance, if they don't want to see a doctor that is their choice. I dont like hospitals so I dont go, if I get sick and I die I die, that is my choice. I refuse to pay for something I dont want or need. Everyone else can get insurance, goto the doctor hell for all I care they can see the pope for prayers I dont care. They point is if they want to see a doctor they can, if they dont they dont have to...

Didn't we just have this discussion? Where I said "not everyone can afford insurance" and you said "what about medicare" and I explained about people that have enough money to not be on Medicare but couldn't afford insurance because of a pre-existing condition or just high rates and you asked how Obamacare would be paid for and I gave you a link that listed all the ways and then you stopped replying? Why are you making the same point again? Just go re-read the conversation from yesterday on that.

Off-topic: Please spell check! A few typos is fine but 'nsil' is a complete bastardization of what I assume to be instill. That's to the point where it takes honest effort to decipher your words and how your 'creative liberties' with spelling destroyed them past recognition.

[KingCharizard]

Originally Posted by Toujours

Didn't we just have this discussion? Where I said "not everyone can afford insurance" and you said "what about medicare" and I explained about people that have enough money to not be on Medicare but couldn't afford insurance because of a pre-existing condition or just high rates and you asked how Obamacare would be paid for and I gave you a link that listed all the ways and then you stopped replying? Why are you making the same point again? Just go re-read the conversation from yesterday on that.

Off-topic: Please spell check! A few typos is fine but 'nsil' is a complete bastardization of what I assume to be instill. That's to the point where it takes honest effort to decipher your words and how your 'creative liberties' with spelling destroyed them past recognition.

nail* i hit s instead of a.... I'm making my point because the person I quoted doesn't seem to get it. I stopped replying because there is something us humans do is sleep. I didn't see anywhere in that link you posted where it said how they would pay for it, just what it was then again i didnt read much because I didn't feel like it.

[Toujours]

That is the text of the bill. If you don't feel like reading the text of the bill under Title IX like I told you, then you really can't argue about how Obamacare will be paid for. I gave you the information, either you can choose to stay ignorant (in that case you'd logically stop arguing since you choose not to know about it) or you can choose to educate yourself and have an educated debate on the pros and cons of it.

[Rodriguezjames55]

we need health care reform not government mandates we should have it the way Gary Johnson says free market health care and for those with preexisting conditions STATE health care

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

we need health care reform not government mandates we should have it the way Gary Johnson says free market health care and for those with preexisting conditions STATE health care

But everyone is going to have a preexisting condition at some point in their lives. Seriously, if you've ever gone to the doctor for anything other than a checkup (or if your doctor found something during a checkup) you've got something on your medical records. It's kind of like if everyone who drove a car had accidents all the time. The "free market" insurance companies would keep raising costs on you. No one could afford that and everyone would just go to the government for help eventually.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

we need health care reform not government mandates we should have it the way Gary Johnson says free market health care and for those with preexisting conditions STATE health care

Some insurance companies would have jacked up a person rates, or deny them outright, if they had acne in the past, or were pregnant in the past.

Its idiocy like this that made governmental intervention necessary.

Edit - I was born premature and had messed up lungs. Before Obamacare, even though that my lungs have since healed, I would have been denied coverage because of this.

[Toujours]

Gary Johnson is for state healthcare in some cases? That sounds anti-libertarian to me. o_O

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Toujours

But don't you believe that we should be free to live whatever lifestyles we want? Isn't that the libertarian way? Besides, England's rate of obesity is near ours and they have universal healthcare.

That's why I said that health care is ultimately personal responsibility. It's not the government's job, or even a private doctor's job to make all of your health decisions. It's up to you and I to make healthy choices. Don't expect others to take care of you when you decided to eat Big Macs 5 times a week and not exercise.

England's NHS is also going bankrupt (source) as a result. If the government is providing health care, yet the people's lifestyles are inherently unhealthy, then the health care system is for naught.

[Rodriguezjames55]

ron paul explains it pretty well

obamacare is unconstitutional and only good thing about it is not turning down people with preexisting conditions aside from that i cant stand it
im not republican saying that cuz my post look like i am